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Considerations on Sexual Immorality, Gender Identity, and my friends Non-Denominational Church.

2024.05.21 18:09 MWBartko Considerations on Sexual Immorality, Gender Identity, and my friends Non-Denominational Church.

A good friend of mine from a fairly conservative evangelical background is considering becoming a pastor at his non-denominational church. As part of the evaluation process, they asked him to write a paper on these topics that he is not an expert on.
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
submitted by MWBartko to Bible [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 18:07 MWBartko Considerations on Sexual Immorality, Gender Identity, and my friends Non-Denominational Church.

A good friend of mine from a fairly conservative evangelical background is considering becoming a pastor at his non-denominational church. As part of the evaluation process, they asked him to write a paper on these topics that he is not an expert on.
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
submitted by MWBartko to trueprolife [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 18:06 MWBartko Considerations on Sexual Immorality, Gender Identity, and my friends Non-Denominational Church.

A good friend of mine from a fairly conservative evangelical background is considering becoming a pastor at his non-denominational church. As part of the evaluation process, they asked him to write a paper on these topics that he is not an expert on.
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
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2024.05.21 18:04 MWBartko Considerations on Sexual Immorality, Gender Identity, and my friends Non-Denominational Church.

A good friend of mine from a fairly conservative evangelical background is considering becoming a pastor at his non-denominational church. As part of the evaluation process, they asked him to write a paper on these topics that he is not an expert on.
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
submitted by MWBartko to Christianity [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 13:43 msgolds89 Home Daycares in Springfield Area

Hi all, my wife and I are expecting our first child later this year. We live near the Franconia Metro and are looking for a home day care that can accommodate infant through toddler age.
We prefer to stay away from corporate day-cares like Kindercare. Also we're Jewish so would like to steer clear of any with Christian/Church affiliations. We both have good experiences with accredited day cares run out of people's homes when we were kids so something like that would be our preference.
I know they can be super competitive and people have told us you often need to get on the wait lists a year in advance. Any suggestions or referrals would be appreciated!
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2024.05.21 13:03 AffectionateTry2044 Two types of counselling will happen - Offline and Online

Two types of counselling will happen - Offline and Online
Posting it here with page no. as many students has already asked me .
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2024.05.21 12:46 Yurii_S_Kh Venerable Arsenius the Great

Venerable Arsenius the Great
https://preview.redd.it/0xonnvuydr1d1.jpg?width=600&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7cae63216b9df0cf2a8903dee4df36998d83d808
Saint Arsenius the Great was born in the year 354 at Rome into a pious Christian family, which provided him a fine education and upbringing. He studied rhetoric and philosophy, and mastered the Latin and Greek languages. Saint Arsenius gave up philosophy and the vanity of worldly life, seeking instead the true wisdom praised by Saint James “pure, peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits” (Jas. 3:17). He entered the ranks of the clergy as a deacon in one of the Roman churches, dedicating himself to the service of God.
The emperor Theodosius (379-395), who ruled the eastern half of the Roman Empire, heard about his erudition and piety, and he wished to entrust Arsenius with the education of his sons Arcadius and Honorius. Arsenius, however, protested that he had given up secular studies in order to serve God. Against his will, but in obedience to the will of Pope Damasus (December 11), Saint Arsenius agreed to teach the imperial children, hoping to teach them Christian piety as well.
When he arrived at Constantinople, Arsenius was received with great honor by the emperor Theodosius, who charged him to educate his sons not only in wisdom, but also in piety, guarding them from the temptations of youth. “Forget that they are the emperor’s sons,” said Theodosius, “for I want them to submit to you in all things, as to their father and teacher.”
With fervor the saint devoted himself to the education of the youths, but the high esteem in which he was held troubled his spirit, which yearned for the quietude of monastic life. Saint Arsenius entreated the Lord to show him the way to salvation. The Lord heard his prayer and one time he heard a voice telling him, “Arsenius, flee from men, and you shall be saved.” And then, removing his rich clothing and replacing it with old and tattered garments, he secretly left the palace, boarded a ship for Alexandria, and he made his way to Sketis, a monastery in the midst of the desert.
Arriving at the church, he asked the priests to accept him into the monastic brotherhood, calling himself a wretched wanderer, though his very manner betrayed him as a cultivated man. The brethren led him to Abba John the Dwarf (November 9), famed for his holiness of life. He, wishing to test the newcomer’s humility, did not seat Arsenius with the monks for the trapeza meal. He threw him a piece of dry bread saying, “Eat if you wish.” Saint Arsenius got down on his hands and knees, and picked up the bread with his mouth. Then he crawled off into a corner and ate it. Seeing this, Elder John said, “He will be a great ascetic!” Then accepting Arsenius with love, he tonsured him into monasticism.
Saint Arsenius zealously passed through his obediences and soon he surpassed many of the desert Fathers in asceticism. The saint again heard the Voice while he was praying, “Arsenius, hide from people and dwell in silence, this is the root of virtue.” From that moment Saint Arsenius settled in a solitary cell deep in the desert.
Having taken on the struggle of silence he seldom left his seclusion. He came to church only on Sundays and Feast days, observing complete silence and conversing with no one. When Abba Moses asked him why he hid himself from people, Saint Arsenius replied, “God knows that I love you, but I cannot remain with God and with men at the same time. The Heavenly Powers all have one will and praise God together. On earth, however, there are many human wills, and each man has his own thoughts. I cannot leave God in order to live with people.”
Though absorbed in constant prayer, the saint did not refuse visiting monks with his counsel and guidance, giving short, but perceptive answers to their questions. Once, a monk from Sketis saw the great Elder through a window standing at prayer, surrounded by a flame.
The handicraft of Saint Arsenius was to weave baskets, for which he used the fronds of date palms soaked in water. For a whole year Saint Arsenius did not change the water in the container, but merely added a little water to it from time to time. This caused his cell to be permeated with a foul stench. When asked why he did this, the saint replied that it was fitting for him to humble himself in this way, because in the world he had used incense and fragrant oils. He prayed that after death he would not experience the stench of hell.
The fame of the great ascetic spread far, and many wanted to see him, and they disturbed his tranquility. As a result, the saint was forced to move around from place to place. But those thirsting to receive his guidance and blessing still found him.
Saint Arsenius taught that many take upon themselves great deeds of repentance, fasting, and vigil, but it is rare for someone to guard his soul from pride, greed, jealousy, hatred of one’s brother, remembrance of wrongs, and judgment. In this they resemble graves which are decorated outwardly, but filled with stinking bones.
A certain monk once asked Saint Arsenius what he should do when he read the Holy Scriptures and did not comprehend their meaning. The Elder answered, “My child, you must study and learn the Holy Scriptures constantly, even if you do not understand their power... For when we have the words of the Holy Scriptures on our lips, the demons hear them and are terrified. Then they flee from us, unable to bear the words of the Holy Spirit Who speaks through His apostles and prophets.”
The monks heard how the saint often urged himself on in his efforts with the words, “Rouse yourself, Arsenius, work! Do not remain idle! You have not come here to rest, but to labor.” He also said, “I have often regretted the words I have spoken, but I have never regretted my silence.”
The great ascetic and keeper of silence was given the gift of tears with which his eyes were constantly filled. He spent fifty-five years at monastic labors and struggles. He spent forty years at Sketis, and ten years on the mountain of Troe near Memphis. Then he spent three years at Canopus, and two more years at Troe, where he fell asleep in the Lord.
Our holy, God-bearing Father Arsenius reposed when he was nearly one hundred years old, in the year 449 or 450.
His only disciples seem to have been Alexander, Zoilos, and Daniel (June 7).

Troparion — Tone 8

By a flood of tears you made the desert fertile, / And your longing for God brought forth fruits in abundance. / By the radiance of miracles you illumined the whole universe. / O our holy Father Arsenius, pray to Christ our God to save our souls!

Kontakion — Tone 2

Arising from Rome, as a sun, you reached the royal city, / Enlightening it, O most blessed one, by your words and deeds. / You drove out the darkness of unreasoning. / Therefore we honor you, Arsenius, the glory of the Fathers!
The Orthodox Church in America
submitted by Yurii_S_Kh to SophiaWisdomOfGod [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 12:30 findmeatthechappell Toxic positivity about my current abusive spouse

So he doesn’t know the main reason for the excursion, I am with my family and will be for another week.
My parents and spouse have all gotten closer this year a lot due to us not being at odds and him treating me well. It’s hard for all of us to fathom why he’s relapsing in his behavior and we all wish he’d change.
But my parents are too optimistic and I get rose colored glasses about the situation when I’m around them. They think (one as a preacher) that going to church and counseling would make him change. Counseling did make him better for a couple of years but I don’t think it’s the grand fix, neither do I think Christianity is going to immediately fix things. Tbh I’m reading the Bible and feel less inclined towards Christianity from reading it, I thought I’d feel the opposite but a lot of that shi is wack to me thus far but who knows, might start vibing with it. Having to be around conersative family (no shade to diff beliefs just my personal issue) when we don’t agree on a lot of topics is hard, like I could. It believe my mom saying women shouldn’t preach and it should be really men only because dead stupid Paul from he Bible said women shouldn’t, even though she acknowledges it’s been deemed as a thing of the culture of that time not applicable to now??? I used to want to preach and follow footsteps but apparently if I did it wouldn’t be the right thing cos I’m a woman. fuck that shit, stupid ass Paul (I have a large amount of beef with a number of people in the Bible people so far for reasons like this). Sorry being a little silly but.
Is there any online services or in person type programs in the US to help kInda guide through a process of disentanglememt and divorce in abusive relationships? I can’t even mention it to people in my state because I’ve been recognized as disabled and any abuse against a disabled person if said in confidence still has to be reported. I shut down the OSI military investigation that started whenever someone reporting against my wishes and I turned away DV who came to the door like who tf thinks that’s a good idea tbh??? He was in the living room playing video games right where the front door is and I had to shoo them away quietly and pretend it was nothing. That was mortifying and nerve wracking. I don’t want any of that but I’m struggling to make the right decision and getting away permanently. I don’t want to hurt his career and I don’t even want to divorce him but I know I need to leave.
Ig im saying, i already dont feel strong enough to let go and start over and lose everything. It doesn’t help that my support system reinforces that, it makes it so confusing. I lose my job, my scholarship, my insurance (HUGE issue, my med for my disorder is $1,500 without insurance, I’m lucky I’m on Tricare for now), my dog, my home, the beaches, and someone I’ve been with for 7 years. I don’t feel strong enough to start over. Makes me feel hopeless and like I want to give up completely wish I was just dead instead kinda. But if that’s the third option then I really have nothing to lose if I left other than being obliterated with grief over the breakup for a long while.
submitted by findmeatthechappell to CPTSD [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 10:10 Several-Animator-906 BCA

BCA
Do I need to register again for bca ?( Exam de rkha hai mene already)
submitted by Several-Animator-906 to IPUniversity [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 09:01 DefiMyself CFI Self-Study Plan (Download)

CFI Self-Study Plan (Download)
CFI Self-Study Plan

CFI Self-Study Plan Reviews: Is it worth it?

Who we are
CFI is the leading global provider of training and productivity tools for finance and banking professionals. We deliver the skills, certifications, CPE credits, and resources to help anyone—from beginner to seasoned pro—drive their career in finance & banking.
What we do
Our mission is to enhance the skills, knowledge, and productivity of finance and banking professionals. We provide practical, real-world skill development, expert-led training, interactive lessons, on-the-job tools, and resources—all on demand.
Key Features:
  • Practical, on-demand training for finance and banking professionals.
  • Accredited certifications.
  • Hands-on lessons.
  • Tools and resources created by experienced professionals.
  • Expert-led training tailored to various skill levels.
  • Interactive lessons for effective learning.
  • Accessible on-demand, anytime, anywhere.
This item includes:
  1. Account Monitoring and Warning Signs -
  2. Accounting Principles and Standards -
  3. Advanced Excel Formulas & Functions -
  4. Advanced Fixed Income -
  5. Advanced Futures & Forwards -
  6. Advanced Power BI -
  7. Advanced Tableau - Data Model -
  8. Advanced Tableau - LOD Calculations -
  9. Advanced Tableau - Table Calculations -
  10. Agriculture Lending Fundamentals -
  11. Alternative Investments for Wealth Advisors -
  12. Applied Fixed Income -
  13. Applied Technical Analysis for Equity Markets -
  14. Assessing Drivers of Business Growth -
  15. Asset Classes and Financial Markets -
  16. Asset-Based Lending & Alternative Finance -
  17. Bayesian Thinking -
  18. Behavioral Finance -
  19. Boss Brewing Inc. – Connecting Capital Structure & Credit Structure -
  20. Build Your Own InsurTech Pricer -
  21. Build Your Own Robo-Advisor -
  22. Carbon Market Fundamentals -
  23. Case Study - Trading Dashboard in Tableau -
  24. Cash Flow Cycles and Analysis -
  25. Cash-to-Accrual Accounting -
  26. Classification - Fundamentals & Practical Applications -
  27. Commercial Banking - Debt Modeling -
  28. Commercial Mortgages -
  29. Commodities Fundamentals -
  30. Communicating & Leading with Influence -
  31. Comparable Valuation Analysis -
  32. Conducting a Materiality Assessment -
  33. Construction Finance Fundamentals -
  34. Construction Loan-in-Process -
  35. Convertible Bonds -
  36. Converting Leads to Customers - Negotiation & Closing -
  37. Corporate & Business Strategy -
  38. Corporate Governance -
  39. Credit Administration and Documentation -
  40. Credit Fixed Income -
  41. Cryptocurrency Intermediates Altcoins, Stablecoins, CBDCs and NFTs -
  42. Cryptocurrency Intermediates_ Understanding Ethereum -
  43. Cybersecurity and RegTech Fundamentals -
  44. Dashboards & Data Visualization -
  45. Data Prep for Machine Learning in Python -
  46. DCF Valuation Modeling -
  47. Deconstructing Options -
  48. Derivatives Fundamentals -
  49. Developing an ESG Governance Structure -
  50. Developing ESG Policies -
  51. Digital Banking Fundamentals -
  52. Economics for Financial Advisors -
  53. Effective Business Writing -
  54. Effective Communication for Client Facing Advisors -
  55. Environmental Due Diligence for Credit -
  56. Equipment Finance -
  57. Equity Markets Fundamentals -
  58. Equity, FX, and Rate Futures -
  59. ESG Disclosure -
  60. ESG for Commercial Lenders -
  61. ESG Fundamentals -
  62. ESG Integration & Financial Analysis -
  63. Evaluating a Business Plan -
  64. Excel Fundamentals - Quick Start Guide -
  65. Excel VBA for Finance -
  66. Financial Analysis for Credit -
  67. Financial Analysis Fundamentals -
  68. Financial Planning Principles -
  69. Foreign Exchange - Deliverable Forwards -
  70. Foreign Exchange - Non-Deliverable Forwards -
  71. FP&A Monthly Cash Flow Forecast Model -
  72. Fundamentals of Data Analysis in Excel - Case Study -
  73. Futures Pricing and Commodity Futures -
  74. Giving Effective Feedback -
  75. Greenhouse Gas Accounting -
  76. Having Difficult Conversations and Managing Conflict -
  77. Hedge Fund Fundamentals -
  78. High-Yield Bonds, Subordinated Debt, and Loans -
  79. How to Read a Commercial Real Estate Appraisal -
  80. How to Read a Lease and Analyze a Rent Roll -
  81. Human Capital Management -
  82. Intermediate DAX & Time Intelligence -
  83. Introduction to 3-Statement Modeling -
  84. Introduction to Financial Planning and Wealth Management -
  85. Introduction to InsurTech -
  86. Leading High-Performing Teams -
  87. Leading with Emotional Intelligence and Self-Awareness -
  88. Lending to Complex Structures -
  89. Lending to Medical Professionals -
  90. Leveraged Buyout (LBO) Modeling -
  91. Loan Covenants -
  92. Loan Default Prediction with Machine Learning -
  93. Loan Pricing -
  94. Loan Security -
  95. Mastering Client Discovery -
  96. Math for Finance Professionals -
  97. Mergers & Acquisitions (M&A) Modeling -
  98. Mining Financial Model & Valuation -
  99. Mint Your Own NFT -
  100. Modeling Risk with Monte Carlo Simulation -
  101. Modeling Taxes for Different Business Structures -
  102. Networking, Prospecting, & Converting Leads -
  103. Operational Modeling -
  104. Options Hedging and Trading Strategies -
  105. Origination Fundamentals - Debt Capital Markets Perspective -
  106. Payment Technology Fundamentals -
  107. Portfolio Management for Retail Clients -
  108. Power BI Case Study – CFI Capital Partners -
  109. Power BI Financial Statements -
  110. Power BI Fundamentals -
  111. Power Pivot Fundamentals -
  112. Power Query Fundamentals -
  113. PowerPoint & Pitchbooks -
  114. Presentation of Financial Information -
  115. Pricing Options and Option Sensitivities -
  116. Prime Services and Securities Lending -
  117. Private Banking -
  118. Problem Loans -
  119. Professional Ethics -
  120. Python Fundamentals -
  121. Python Fundamentals Case Study -
  122. R Fundamentals -
  123. Reading Business Financial Information -
  124. Real Estate Financial Modeling -
  125. Real Estate Fundamentals -
  126. Regression Analysis - Fundamentals & Practical Applications -
  127. Renewable Energy - Solar Financial Modeling -
  128. Repo (Repurchase Agreements) By Meeyeon Park - CFI Education -
  129. Retail, Restaurant, & Franchise Lending -
  130. RockCrusher Rentals -
  131. Rocky Mountain Holdings Ltd. - Commercial Mortgage -
  132. Scenario & Sensitivity Analysis in Excel -
  133. Securitized Products -
  134. Short Duration Products -
  135. Spot Foreign Exchange -
  136. SQL Case Study - WOWI Sales Analysis -
  137. SQL Fundamentals -
  138. Startup - e-Commerce Financial Model & Valuation -
  139. Swaps Fundamentals -
  140. Syndicated Lending -
  141. Tableau Fundamentals -
  142. Tableau Fundamentals Case Study -
  143. Tableau Trading Dashboard -
  144. The Amazon Case Study (New Edition) -
  145. Trade Finance -
  146. Trading Using Technical Analysis -
  147. Understanding Options -
  148. Venture Debt -
  149. WealthTech Fundamentals -
  150. Widgets Inc. - Adjusting a Business Owner’s Net Worth -
  151. Woodchucks Ltd - Owner Occupied Commercial Real Estate -
submitted by DefiMyself to Forex_Scalpers [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 07:26 Cheesencrqckerz Mental health access is tough in Texas

Trying to get help for trauma is a fucking joke. As soon as I mention bpd I need a referral, that never comes. Life is tough. I might have to try Christian counseling if nothing else is available 😭
submitted by Cheesencrqckerz to BPD [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 06:59 peacefulday24 Financial imbalance in relationship causing insecurities

Dear RedPillWomen, I am hoping for some advice!
My fiance (M32) and I (F33) have been together for 5 months and recently got engaged. We are both born-again Christians, and believe in Biblical submission for the wife and headship for the man. He has never mentioned red pill but is a traditionally masculine man and wants to protect and provide for his woman.
My job has a higher hourly rate, and we currently earn a similar amount weekly because I work fewer hours. But overall our financial positions are very different. Over the years I've earned a significantly higher wage, saved pretty consistently, and recently received a family inheritance which has bumped up my savings (we will have a pre-nuptial agreement for the inheritance).
My fiance has some money in a government savings scheme, but overall lives paycheck to paycheck, and my total savings are an estimated 5 1/2 times more than his. He married and became a stepfather very young and earned a low wage for years, and lost money in his divorce which was finalized 3 years ago. He is paying off some money borrowed from family. He has also spent on vehicles and hobbies rather than saving. He does not gamble, or currently use drugs, but drinks pretty heavily, which is something he would like to change. This is a flaw I am prepared to accept as I come with a fair amount of baggage myself. We have the support of our families and churches and are doing pre-martial counselling.
My fiance has expressed a lot of insecurity about me having more money, and feeling like less of a man because of this, which is hard for me to know how to handle. I will be covering the bulk of our wedding costs, which is not a dynamic either of us are very comfortable with, but I can't see any way around it without eloping or having a tiny wedding, which would exclude a lot of family and people that are special to us. We are not sleeping together before marriage which means we are having a short engagement.
We had a conversation last night and again he was very down on himself due to his poor handling of money, lack of savings and imbalance in our finances. I have thought about suggesting that we upskill together in this area by reading a budgeting book or watching Dave Ramsey or someone else who teaches about finances. I want to get on top of this issue before marriage especially as he has expressed a desire to change, but am not sure if I should suggest this, when it is already a really shameful area for him.
I would appreciate any advice that the community could give about how to improve this situation in a submissive way... with many thanks in advance!
submitted by peacefulday24 to RedPillWomen [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 04:43 Melaleni Ensuring Impeccable Hygiene and Care: Aged Care Cleaning Services in Brisbane

Ensuring Impeccable Hygiene and Care: Aged Care Cleaning Services in Brisbane
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https://preview.redd.it/3k6uukog0p1d1.jpg?width=400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=f08c7a982ea11fc12fca73e14f1d618aceefca2c
submitted by Melaleni to u/Melaleni [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 04:14 1stgradeotter Sola Scriptura, caution when engaging with them

I'd like to address all Catholic who engages with other Christian brothers who are based on Sola Scriptura.
First, before you talk to them be mindful that you will be put in a corner. If you are in a boxing ring for example, you will be cornered and you will be hit with lots of verses blah blah blah and you are expected to be knocked out or tap out or throw your towel.
Well, guess here's my guide and help you prepare yourselves.
  1. Don't get intimidated. Because they know lots of information in the bible it doesn't mean you are less to be saved by Jesus Christ. If he tries to tell you about your sin and you're going to hell, well guess what he is also. Just talk to them, practice, listen to them, write down what he is saying and then research afterward if he's points are correct and what are the Catholic view on those answers.
  2. Don't be offended or put your guard up. Let him convert you if he can. Do you see what I just did there? Let him try. If he can't crumble you to confusion and crash your Catholic faith then he lost. Be strong. Because all he does is just talk you out without action. You don't know him, he doesn't know you, guess what he is just making you small and he's trying to look big but his not. Let your holy spirit guide you and ask your holy spirit if this man is worth your time.
  3. He will give you verses all about God/Jesus Christ and not your answers or what your thinking right now. This is their way. Their mindset is that they're on God/Jesus Christ's side and you are not. Well gues what, you both are in God/Jesus Christ's side. As a Catholic, it is faith and works. Works because we adore what we have and thank God/Jesus Christ. Imagine... We as Catholic go out to confession to ask forgiveness and reconciliation. The process of it and time is not that simple and easy. Now, look if they want to be forgiven or ask God/Jesus Christ for forgiveness, they can just do it everywhere. Bathroom, bedroom, on the street, movie theater, etc. You see, if we put a scale of who's intentions are worth it? Catholics. You see, I or even you talk to God/Jesus Christ everywhere we are. I ask God/Jesus Christ that he may forgive me every time I go to mass, before I go to sleep, before I eat, etc. But I still go to confession because there you will be revived and get true reconciliation. What they're doing is just like, you're thinking in your head that you'll do your laundry later but don't even think of it or forget it when later comes around. They only think of it when they need it or they need God/Jesus Christ.
  4. Research and learn about Sola Scriptura vs Catholic. There are lots of resources in the internet or Youtube. Go to Catholic Answers, Trent Horn, Father Bishop Robert Barron, Jimmy Akin, Father Mike Schmitz, Matt Fradd's Pints with Aquinas and many more.
  5. Research debates Sola Scriptura vs Catholic.
In summary, there are content creators who are taking advantage on Catholic like Youtube Living Waters - The Pope Blew It Big Time When He Said This. NeedGot net - Roman Catholic Priest In Training Calls In For A Chat. Looking at Living Waters, they or Ray Comfort usually go for it and talk like he's perfect, sinless and tries to be a savior every time he talks to people. I've also seen debunking REBUTTING Ray Comfort on Catholicism by The Counsel of Trent. Or A Catholic DEBUNKS Ray Comfort and Living Waters (Their False Catholic History) by Catholic Truth.
You see, big names that are Catholic content creators on Youtube have debunked them. I don't even think Ray Comfort will accept a debate from Trent Horn or Jimmy Akin.
So don't be intimidated. Don't be afraid. Don't let their ego stop you. Your faith is bigger and more special.
They will never stop downgrading people's faith and only chase people who have less knowledge and only choose a video that they see they are winning making it their content.
Good luck and God bless!
EDIT: I'd like to add that whenever I comment on Living Waters or Ray Comfort's Youtube videos, they usually delete my comment because they don't want to be exposed. They think they're the only ones who will be saved. They think the Pope is evil, etc. Don't be scammed or misinformed by these people. Do your research and build up your knowledge.
submitted by 1stgradeotter to Catholicism [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 03:18 SunMeadowTemple Pagan's in the Military

Pagan's in the Military submitted by SunMeadowTemple to SunMeadowTemple [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 03:10 Gyanbng123 Today’s Headlines

“Wake up to every sunrise with gratitude and at the sunset, be grateful that you made it through the day..”
Very Good Morning 🍄
Today's Headlines from :
Economic Times
📝 CCI to boost strength for better oversight of digital, other sectors
📝 Airtel Africa’s Dutch hold-company completes $550 million bond repayment
📝 India Cements Q4 Results: Net loss narrows to Rs 50.06 crore
📝 Global Health Q4 Results: Net profit rises 25% to Rs 127 crore
📝 Centre may get around ₹1 lakh crore in RBI dividend
📝 Kalpataru Projects International bags SAR 3.4 billion contracts from Aramco
📝 Global fund KKR puts Lighthouse on the Block, eyes $1.2 billion valuation
📝 Godrej Properties acquires 10 land parcels in FY24 to build Rs 21,000 crore worth projects
📝 RITES signs pact with Bangladesh Railway to supply 200 passenger coaches
📝 Nikhil Kamath, Manyavar family office may join A91 in Rare Rabbit’s Rs 500 crore funding
📝 Google invests 1 billion euros in Finnish data centre to drive AI growth
📝 EPFO created 11.4% more formal jobs in 2023-24 at 15.4 million, shows payroll data
Business Standard
📝 Randstad Digital eyes GCCs in India to drive growth in its IT business
📝 PGIM India Asset Management aims to double AUM to Rs 50,000 cr in 2-3 yrs
📝 Ujjivan SFB board to decide universal bank transition timelines in FY25
📝 High Court gives relief to Pepsico India over Rs 2,800 crore tax demand
📝 Rail maker Wabtec Corp eyes $30 million exports from its India operations
📝 Serum Institute ships its first set of malaria vaccine doses to Africa
📝 Short-term govt bond yield may fall on Rs 60,000 crore T-bill supply cut
📝 RBI in talks with Sebi to allow mutual funds to sell debt to ARCs
📝 Optimism in real estate industry stakeholders highest in 10 years: Report
Financial Express
📝 Tata Digital rejigs top team
📝 16 companies enter Rs 1 trillion m-cap club so far in 2024
📝 Waaree Renewable eyes threefold growth in FY25
📝 Apollo Pipes Q4 Results: Profit at Rs 6.90 crore; co announces new business line with initial investment of Rs 45 crore
📝 Adani Group plans to bid for airport privatisation
Mint
📝 Oil prices rise after Iran president's death, brent crude at $84.24/bbl
📝 Competition Commission of India to soon bring new set of merger regulations
📝 Coal stock 25% higher y-o-y at 147mt, says govt as power demand surges
📝 Oil India Q4 results: Net profit rise 18% to ₹2,333 cr, announces 1:2 bonus shar
📝 IRFC Q4 results: Net profit rises 34% to ₹1,717 cr, declares dividend of ₹0.70
📝 PE firm TA Associates lines up a unicorn bet in Vastu Housing Finance
📝 Fake documents for hospital accreditation, NABH warns of stern action.
submitted by Gyanbng123 to IndianStockMarket [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 01:53 DepartureHonest7948 The Uncompromising Blissful Extravagance of His Presence!

CMM.World & CMMTheology.org
The Great Harvest is here. Christ's Mandate for Missions and CMMTheology build strong, organic relationships globally as we worship, grow and equip together. Like Joshua and Caleb and the Apostle Paul, we see with faith what He sees in each person (to help each reach fullness), group (many streams and backgrounds in unity) and nations (sheep vs. goat nations). Our passion is to love, connect, equip and send with the simplicity, fullness, and power of the Gospel.
The Uncompromising Blissful Extravagance of His Presence! Inbox
By CMM.World CMMTheology.org - November 10, 2022
Dear Mighty One,
I see the Lord's eye upon us we discover by revelation the 'new thing' He is doing in our lives and of those of us who, beyond the present darkness, gaze into His eyes. The 'tuning fork' of Yahweh is orchestrating the sons and daughters of our living God in growing holy remnant unity to withstand as we stand with Him fearlessly in the boldness of the faith of God in this hour. Egypt is behind us, and the covenantal promises and prophetic words we have received (1 Tim. 1:18) empower us by His Holy Spirit to advance in warfare, humbly growing in the spirit of wisdom and revelation.

Yesterday as I encouraged some friends, I said, 'stay in the blissful extravagance of His presence.' Today I saw in Psalm 34 His eyes are upon us in vs. 8 & 9 and v:15 about the 'uncompromisingly righteous.' We are to be holy as He is holy. That leaves no room for any more compromise or seeking to please man or the traditions of men, being free of the fear of man, the religious spirit, and any demonic activity. We are seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus. Lord, help us understand by revelation to walk in all the authority we have been given by Jesus Christ.
Psalm 34:8-9 'O taste and see that the Lord [our God] is good! Blessed (happy, fortunate, to be envied) is the man who trusts and takes refuge in Him. O fear the Lord, you His saints [revere and worship Him]! For there is no want to those who truly revere and worship Him with godly fear.'
v. 15 'The eyes of the Lord are toward the [uncompromisingly] righteous and His ears are open to their cry.'
Chuck Pierce shared this amazing word from Penny Jackson that is right on for this season: https://christsmandate.blogspot.com/2022/11/chuck-pierce-shares-powerful-word-from.html
May YOUR November be full of Thanksgiving and Praise for you and yours as YOU enjoy The Uncompromising Blissful Extravagance of His Presence!
Thank you for praying for CMM and all your fellow CMM Global Family worldwide. Pray for all the missionaries, schools, and students in CMM College of Theology in the US, Ecuador, Canada, Cuba, Myanmar, Nigeria, and Thailand.
Pray for the new wells and the living water and safe water recently drilled or soon to be drilled in Tanzania, India, Malawi, and Pakistan.
Pray for our upcoming Christmas gift campaigns to bless children and youth in many nations. Many of them are precious, beautiful children (orphans). As the Lord leads, pray about giving any amount to bless dear CMM children this Christmas. https://cmmworld.kindful.com/
Pray for each other, dear friends. We all know we each need prayers going up to Heaven for all those on the front lines. We each are on the front lines!
Please pray for me as I speak tomorrow online to a crusade with 8,000 expected to attend in Pakistan. In December, I will speak at conferences in Liberia and Kenya with fellow CMM Ordained ministers Robert Bimba (Liberia), Tom Omukhobero, and Daniel and Christine Oyoko (Kenya).
We are working on plans and trips for 2023. If you would like to have some of our awesome CMM family speakers for a conference in your area or would like to join or lead a missions trip, we would love to hook you up with dear friends in many nations.
Please join me in welcoming Dr. Louis Blom of Judea Harvest as Associate Director of Missions at CMM. This strategic alliance multiplies the efforts and impact in building the Kingdom of our God, for His glory. https://youtu.be/HXfP8tCySRc

Many blessings and shalom from us all here at the home office and around the world.
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CMM is strategically positioned with proven, trusted, indigenous friends in many nations activating, equipping, connecting and releasing the saints to reach their people and nation with the love of Father God.
CMM is cross-denominational. We are seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus and the completed work of Jesus Christ on the cross assures us of victory, through trials, as we are trained to rule and reign with the Father's heart and love of justice and mercy and walk humbly before Him.
CMM is a 501c3 founded in 1978. We also handle donor relations for approximately 500 missionaries globally, ordained ministers, as we enjoy the Lord in fellowship, offering Christian accredited degrees globally, church planting, healing, counseling, orphanages, and prayer centers, creative arts, prophetic, humanitarian aid and disaster relief, medical, stopping human trafficking, leadership training and creative incubators for entrepreneurs, disaster relief, and connecting destinies.
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submitted by DepartureHonest7948 to CMMworldMissions [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 01:18 Unlikely-Country-822 My (34F) husband (41M) lied about paying mortgage for almost a year.

TL;DR! I just found out a few days ago that my husband hasn't paid our mortgage in 11 months.
My husband (41m) and I (34f) have our finances pretty separate. We each have our own accounts and the only thing in both of our names is our house and his car. He makes about 2x what I make and we split expenses up in a way we both felt was fair and manageable for each of us while both working on our own personal credit card debt we brought into the relationship. One of the things he covers is the mortgage in full. He works in accounting and I work in education, I have never been great at managing my money so he does my monthly budget for me and has access to all of my accounts and knows what my debts are. There has always been a veil of secrecy around his situation but he has always assured me everything was fine on his end, money was always tight but he was always almost caught up. When I would ask specific questions he would get kind of defensive and I felt it wasn't worth digging for more info and took his word on things.
Taking his word on things was pretty naive of me considering our biggest issues in the past had revolved around him lying. When we first started dating he told me he was taking classes towards his masters degree. I found out that he was actually in a Bachelor's program when he had told me he had already had his bachelor's degree. When I confronted him he apologized, told me he was embarrassed and felt ashamed that I was more educated than he was at the time. I let it slide because he seemed genuinely apologetic and I felt bad he was embarrassed.
More recently about a year after our son was born I had mentioned that he smelled like cigarette smoke a few times and he said "that's weird." A few months later I found a lighter and spray under the seat in one of our cars. He told me the lighter was in case the locks froze in winter but didn't know what the spray was. A couple months after that I found a pack of cigarettes in his jacket pocket while I was looking for his keys and he confessed to smoking the whole time. Then again, about a year ago I was clued in that he might be having trouble when I had a notice for a late payment on my credit report. I checked immediately and saw he didn't make his car payment. When I asked him he got defensive and stated that he has the account auto pay and he doesn't know why they wouldn't have taken it out. I asked him to please call them to have it straightened out as I didn't want the hit to my credit and he was frustrated and said he would but nothing came of it and I let it go because the conversations were so unpleasant. I asked him to please tell me if he was struggling with the bills and his money situation and he said it was all fine.
Flash forward to a few days ago I got a notice that we were behind on daycare payments. I asked him what was going on why they were only getting partial payment I could tell he was lying. He was immediately defensive, said he put in a form months ago for them to do automatic withdrawal from his account but they never did so while he was waiting he would bring them "however much the ATM would let me take out at a time" in cash. I couldn't let this go as I felt in my bones he was lying and I asked him if things were ok and did he need help, was the mortgage current? He said yeah it should be. Then I asked again and begged him to tell me the l truth and I found out he hadn't paid the mortgage in 11 months.
He says he is sorry, he feels bad. He didn't know what to do. About a year ago his health insurance costs increased dramatically and he could no longer afford the mortgage. Instead of asking me to take on the insurance through my job or talking to me at all he decided to just not pay it. I was pregnant at the time so he didn't want to drop the insurance. He didn't tell me any of this because he didn't want to stress me out. He tells me about a week ago he applied for some kind of relief program, so waiting to hear back on that. If that isn't approved we go into foreclosure.
I keep talking about it I feel betrayed and angry, he just says he's sorry he doesn't know what else to say. He maintains he did it to protect me but it certainly doesn't feel like it. Then he tells me he was just scared to tell me. I asked for full transparency and to see all of his accounts and he was first angry and said "so now I'm being babysat? That sucks" but later he reluctantly let me see his bank accounts. As far as I can tell no gambling or drug addiction or anything crazy just living beyond our means and an alarming amount of door dash charges.
I always knew he would lie about things that weren't super important but thought he was overall a responsible, reasonable person and I never in a million years would have imagined he would do something like this to our family. Is this something we could come back from? How big a deal is lying like this? I know we need counseling for the abysmal communication in the relationship, but the lying at this scale makes it hard to believe I'll be able to fully trust him again. Also, possibly homelessness I'm sure will place another strain on the relationship.
submitted by Unlikely-Country-822 to relationships [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 01:04 Carebear6590 Professional careers or Artistic career path?

Professional field or creative endeavors?
I have a degree in speech pathology and 25k debt . Not interested in pursuing speech therapy
I’ve considered going back to school and either becoming a counselor or a nurse.
But more interested in the creative endeavors (modeling/actress/ artist/ social media influencer (probably not realistic ).
But I’m not sure about counseling or nursing as I’m not passionate about it. What should I do?
submitted by Carebear6590 to Advice [link] [comments]


2024.05.21 00:27 MoNeenja31 Up to $27k in credit card debt - Debt consolidation worth it?

So unfortunately over the past year, I racked up an enormous amount of credit card debt and have been struggling to pay the full balances. The debt was accrued due to a bad contractor not carrying out his work for a remodel on our house we bought, resulting in having to hire a new contractor and re purchase new materials and hiring a lawyer.
I make about $65k / year before taxes and my only other income is from rent ($1,750) from a tenant that just moved in 2 months ago after owning the house for a year and food delivery on the side. I've been getting non stop letters in the mail from various places, offering loans from 30k to 75k and various interest rates.
I called up one place called Accredited Debt Relief and they told me I qualify for their debt consolidation program which consist of $215 payments bi-weekly for 48 months to clear my debt. I told them I'll think about and I've been getting calls from non-stop, which just seems very desperate.
What are the pros/cons of these programs? Would it result in me defaulting in some of my credit card bills or tanking my credit score? Would this negatively impact me in the future if I were to clear my debt and buy another house?
submitted by MoNeenja31 to personalfinance [link] [comments]


2024.05.20 23:43 XCanuck My marriage feels strained and very one-sided, unsure how to cope with a wife who won't communicate or share responsibilities

There's a "dad joke" I heard that goes: My therapist told me to write out a big long rant letter to everyone I have a problem with, burn them all to ashes, and scatter the ashes into the wind. I did all that last weekend, but now I'm not sure what to do with the letters.
This post feels like that big, long rant, but I genuinely could really use some help/ideas beyond "go to marriage counseling." I provide so much to the family and household that isn't reciprocated, but trying to set boundaries to feel more balanced gets passive-aggressive and/or silent treatment. I'm not writing all this here just to vent, I've actually edited this down pretty significantly to summarize what I'm going through and giving some examples.
Thanks for giving me the space to share this.
Me (50/M), Wife (45/F), two kids 15 and 13. We have no family who live anywhere close to us. We're in the middle of America, her divorced parents are on the coast, and mine's in Canada where I'm originally from (in case my username didn't give that away).
TLDR at the bottom.
Trigger warnings: a ruined birthday, shared/not-shared finances, me losing my cool and walking out on my family and getting the silent treatment since, and apparently being the only parent/grown-up in the house.
To this family, I feel that all I am to them is the income/paycheck and personal chef, and I'm ready to walk away. My wife won't communicate, gets defensive and angry, and doesn't contribute to the marriage or teach our kids about responsibility, so I look like a jerk all the time. If I speak up and ask her to help, I'm treated like a jerk. If I don't speak up, she does nothing.
Background about physicality, work and finances
I work in tech, typically 50-70 hours per week, and take on occasional (< 5 hrs/week) contract work as a side business to pay for my 3D printing hobby that I'm also trying to turn into a side business. She works part-time maybe one full day of work throughout the week on an as-needed basis.
My job pays the benefits, and I've established a retirement fund for us, plus a 401K and Roth IRA, plus a 529 account for each of the kids that I've been investing in since they were born. I paid off both cars. We're debt-free except for our mortgage, and we have enough assets to pay off the house if we choose to.
We each have a bank account for ourselves, plus a joint bank account. Her part-time paychecks and other money from an inheritance, goes 100% into her account only, and I use my account for my 3D printing business to maintain an LLC. Just about everything financial is paid for from my paychecks. I've always treated this as "our" money. All bills, mortgage, memberships, subscriptions (Netflix, etc), things the kids need (clothing, shoes, school supplies, etc), furniture, medical bills, etc are all paid from a joint account that is funded 100% by my paycheck. She makes no contributions to this account, but she does withdraw from it for fast food, snacks she buys just for herself, her own crafting hobbies, and she'll pick up maybe $100/month for some groceries.
I promised her before we were even married that if she wanted to be a stay-at-home mom or, at any point, go back to work, she'd have my full support either way, and I've kept that promise. She worked full-time for about 2 years before we had kids and worked a fair bit of part-time work before the kids started school in 2013. She's been at her part-time job for 2 years, so quite a span where she didn't work at all.
She works as a 1099 contractor and, despite repeatedly being asked to, won't reserve money for tax time. So, not only does she spend 100% of her paycheck, but I have to be sure that we save enough to cover her tax bill every year. She's never offered to contribute to tax payments we have to make.
I had gallbladder surgery and bariatric surgery, so I've had pretty restrictive dietary needs for the past 5-6 years. She often made comments about me being heavy and having a shortened life span, but since my bariatric surgery, she's expressed resentment about my body changing (I lost 120+lbs) and now doesn't care to learn what kinds of protein/carb/fat balance I need, and gained about 80lbs herself. As such, she does not contribute to any meal planning, which means I'm doing 95% of all meal planning, groceries, and cooking.
When it comes to cooking, I'm a damn good cook, and it's 100% because of YouTube. She grew up in an environment where she wasn't encouraged to cook or even learn to, so she lived on PBJ through college until we started dating and I would cook or take her out. When the kids were in their "picky" stages of 4yrs-9yrs of age, she got frustrated with cooking but years later still holds to that "NOBODY likes what I cook". So she makes maybe 2 or 3 meals per month now, and it's always the same meals. Last night, she cooked 10 people's worth of macaroni with a single pound of ground beef and more than a pound of cheese. I had to pick out the meat to get my protein and then drink a protein shake afterward, and then got offended that I threw away the noodles/cheese. (My diet needs high protein, low carbs, and almost no fat, she knows this because I tell her quite often, but she won't do anything about it; she's bought maybe 3 shelves worth of cookbooks and won't even open them or go take a class or anything.)
Our oldest kid has shown an interest in cooking and will maybe cook one meal per week and ask me to help him out, so I share what I've learned, things I've tried, experimented with, lessons learned, etc., and we have a good time, and they really appreciate the learning opportunity. On the rare occasion I do see my wife making dinner in the kitchen, I show her that I'm really happy about what she's making and ask if she wants help chopping or anything and I only get "no" as an answer and completely shut down like I'm not supposed to be in the kitchen. I'll try to have conversation with her but then she can't concentrate on cooking, chopping, etc, and then "ruined" dinner is my fault.
"Her" money versus "our" money, and how we spend our days/weekends
My wife had a relative die quite a few years ago and in the fall of 2018 was given a $250k inheritance. She has always referred to this as "her" money, "her" retirement, in case "she" needs a nursing home later. I'm not in her future plans, apparently. She gave $50k of it to a cousin who was deliberately left out of that relative's will. My wife's will leaves any remaining inheritance money to the kids. No mention of me anywhere whatsoever.
Once the inheritance money hit her bank account, she decides to buy a horse from halfway across the country and put it in a boarding stable 20 minutes from the house. It was a childhood dream of hers. Apparently, she's allowed to pursue her dreams and interests, it's "her" money, I'm not allowed to tell her what to do with it, but she complains when my 3D printing business makes enough money to buy another printer to keep up with demand... And my hobby takes up less time per week than she spends at the barn.
When she's not working her one-day-a-week job, she's at the boarding stable for a few hours per day, playing with her horse, taking selfies, taking him on walks, not actually riding him. With her remaining time at home, and when she gets home with the kids, she's lying on the couch, acting worn out and tired like she just bench-pressed the friggin' horse. (And yes, I know horse training CAN be exhausting, but she's not doing anything exhausting with him. She literally walks him on a path, or walks him in circles in an arena enclosure, or she's brushing him down and bathing him to look nice for Instagram)
In the summer of 2018, right before she got this inheritance money, she spent $50k of "our" money on a kitchen renovation that she insisted she designs herself, and then felt guilty about the bill and me having to take on more side contracting work to pay off the HELOC in a reasonable amount of time, and contributed back $10k to the whole project from "her" money afterward. "Her" money paid for the kids' orthodontics, about $3k each. But she literally contributes NOTHING else financially to the family.
If I had to guess, she's got about $150k left of that inheritance money, maybe less, she won't ever tell me about it. And we don't get a notice from the bank about interest gained at tax time every year because she put it in an account that makes ZERO interest. She sees my investments with 25%-40% gains, but won't ever ask for my help or input. Instead, she asked 3 other guys at work who told her to at least get a Vanguard account, but almost 6 years later she's never done it.
I work full-time as mentioned, and work from home. Work is typically 50+ hours per week but I try to cap it at 60-ish if I can. For the past month I've been on a project with a tight deadline, and working more like 10-14 hours per day 6 days per week. It's like that in tech, she's been understanding of this in the past, and I'm sure to take jobs where this is NOT the norm. Still, I'm always happy to help drive the kids to/from school or to music lessons or doctors, but I'm usually treated like "how dare you," that's "her" job, like that's her contribution to everything.
She works a part-time job doing marketing. Maybe 2-3 hours a day, one or two days per week. Sometimes busier in Q1 as they prep/plan most of the year, but then very low-lift afterward. She spends maybe 40 minutes per day taking the kids to/from school. Other than that, she's at the barn or on the couch. (have I mentioned we've gone through several couches that "our" money pays for??)
The marital imbalance I'm dealing with
She won't enforce chores for the kids, remind them to do laundry, or clean their rooms, or even shower. She'll text me "one of the boys smells" after taking them to school, but won't insist they shower, or back me up on the whole "c'mon guys, brush twice a day at least, and shower at least every 2 days with actual some soap on your bodies and actual shampoo on your hair, and use deodorant..." She'll make remarks like "Didn't you wear and sleep in those clothes for the past 3 days?" but won't make them change, or tell them to do their laundry.
She might do dishes 2 to 3 times per month, it's normally a chore we give to the kids, but she never enforces it. If they stack up for 3 days she'll do some of them but not all of them. One kid was born on an odd-numbered day, the other on an even-numbered day, so the rule is if today is an even or odd day, we know whose turn it is to do the dishes. And if the month has an odd number of days, I do the dishes on the 31st/29th day. But they're teenagers, they'd rather be in their rooms being teenagers, so I have to constantly remind them. Neither of them checks that the dishes are even clean before putting them away, something she specifically called out being embarrassed about when we were dating and visiting her mom's house where half of the dishes in the cupboard still had dried food all over them.
And then garbage day, or yard work, or vacuuming, cleaning a bathroom, cleaning their room, shoveling snow. She doesn't help enforce ANY of the chores that we agreed on. So I'm the sole disciplinarian around here, which makes the kids grow up thinking they better avoid me or I'm the jerk who's gonna put them to work.
Nothing happens around here unless I ask the rest of the family. I've purposefully left chores undone for "that's almost a health hazard" amounts of time and still nobody takes the initiative, nor will she ask the kids to help. They all see the work needs to be done, but they won't choose to help, and they're probably learning from her example of just sitting in some other room/area of the house and someone else will do it someday.
Even asking them "what kind of meals do you want this week, what haven't we had in a while, what's your favorite meal," you'd swear I was asking them to cure cancer every Saturday so I could start to plan meals for the following week and get groceries on Sunday, which has been our routine since the kids could talk.
Their cop-out is to skip the 3 shelves of cookbooks and flip through a binder we kept from a few months of Hello Fresh meals but then it's the same 10-12 meals that get kinda old after a while.
I feel like I have no help from anyone.
I reached my tipping point, and recently walked out on my family
A little over three weeks ago, I'm on this tight deadline at work, getting maybe 3-4 hours of sleep at night, pulling 10-14 hour days. It's a Wednesday, I remember about 430pm that I should commit my code, as I usually do 'cause I need to make dinner because nobody else is gonna do it. Oh, wait, tonight was grilled cheese and tomato soup -- literally, ANYONE ELSE in the house, including our 13yr old who has never shown any interest in cooking, could heat a can of soup and melt cheese between bread, right??? Surely SOMOENE else in the family will handle dinner, so I keep working (note, without asking anyone else to help with dinner), hoping someone else will handle the meal. (and yes, I know this is typically against my diet, but I indulge in this low-protein, high-carb, higher-fat meal about once a month.)
At 730pm my wife comes STOMPING into my office area, "I can't make the grilled cheese like you do." No politeness, just turns and stomps back to the kitchen. I follow her to the kitchen, where the tomato soup is on a RAPID boil, yet she hasn't even started making the grilled cheese sandwiches. I turn the soup off, take it off the burner, and start to describe what to do for the grilled cheese. It's honestly nothing special; I put shredded cheese in the pan to get crusty on the outside of the bread, then stack up the the grilled cheese, put break on top, let the inner cheese melt, and flip it onto more shredded cheese. Highly recommended.
She says "Oh" and ... LEAVES THE KITCHEN, leaving me there expecting me to make dinner... and I'm pissed. I should have just gone back to my work area, but she parks herself back on the couch.
I get everything made, and of course nobody sets the table, ever. Now I'm seriously pissed off, so I slam some dishes in the middle of the table and go back into the kitchen to get the pot of soup and plate of sandwiches. I get back to the dinner table, where my wife and youngest are just standing there, STILL not setting the table despite me standing there with food that I can't even put down. So I drop the food on the table wherever I can, soup splashes everywhere, and I start setting the table while they stand there and watch and ... I lost my cool. I flung bowls and spoons in the general area where they're supposed to be at the table, and I walked out of the house. I returned 4 or 5 hours later once they were all in bed.
The ONE meal in my busy schedule that ANY of them could have made, and her contribution was putting a can of soup in a pot.
She still didn't make any meals for the rest of the week. That Sunday she put a meal plan together for the whole following week. Again, all super carb-heavy when she knows my own diet can't handle that. And then she stopped planning ANYTHING ELSE SINCE THEN. The following week's "meal plan" was just a list of who was home on which night because of end-of-school-year events going on. No meals, no grocery list. Meanwhile I'm still on my deadline... Last week, no help at all. This week, zero help.
So this week's meal plan I finally set a boundary for myself that was VERY clear to them: I'm planning to cook 3 meals for the whole week, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and left the rest open with no meal planned. Last night at 6pm she made her "hamburger helper" and plans "ramen" for tomorrow (again, all noodles and broth, very little protein), but no other help from her for the rest of the meal plan for the remainder of the week.
My recently ruined 50th birthday
My birthday was a little over a week ago. I turned 50. Send me your favorite dad jokes, please, I beg of you.
My wife asked me 2 or 3 months ago if I wanted any kind of party, etc. to which I said yeah, I'd love to have a few friends over, named several of them, all of whom she either has in her phone, or are guys married to women that I know she stays in regular contact with. I mentioned some all-you-can-eat places that we could go, just the 4 of us, where I could pick out good proteins etc. and they could eat whatever they wanted.
I got nothing. No dinner out. No party. No friends.
The night before my birthday, she was too lazy to get off the couch, so I went to bed alone. I woke up in bed alone. I told the family the day before that I wanted French Toast for breakfast, normally something we'd do on Christmas Day, but it was my 50th birthday gosh darn it, and I was even thawing bacon. I even bought all the groceries needed. Nope, had to cook that alone too, so I only made enough for me, and ate alone. Showered alone, 'cause we haven't been intimate in ... 3 months? 4 months? And who cares that it's my birthday.
Nobody asked if I wanted to go out anywhere, go see a movie, go for a hike with the dog, nothing. So I went out with the dog, alone.
That night I had to make dinner for the family, again, on my own friggin' birthday. Alone in the kitchen. AND I had to remind the kids to clean up the kitchen afterward 'cause they won't do it unless they're told. She bought tiny pieces of cheesecake for dessert, which she knows I don't like and can't eat because of my diet. I had one tiny piece, she and the kids ate the rest.
No cake, no candle, no balloons. It was my FIFTIETH birthday ...
We have some serious communication breakdown going on
Since I walked out of the house a few weeks back, she only talks to me when she wants something, and that comes across more as a demand, "I need you to pick the kids up from school, I have to be at work" and walks away She won't say good morning or even hi, unless I say it first. Lately, I say "hi" or "hey" as we're passing in the house and I get no response at all. I get literal one-word responses when I ask her a question. A few nights ago, several nights in a row, I'm in the living room on my laptop trying to get more work done, she'll come in the room, not ask me what I'm doing or if I'm working, and blast a TV show on her phone at near-maximum volume, and fall asleep on the couch.
She gets mad and offended any time I offer constructive criticism of any kind. And it doesn't matter how delicately I try to phrase things, I'll agonize for days over exactly which words to use, she'll get super defensive, angry and lash out, and give me the silent treatment for weeks.
Last Tuesday was an end-of-year awards show for our youngest, who's finishing 8th grade. He's really into music and he stayed after school to practice for the event. She comes home to get ready then decides to leave for the event by herself. I only noticed when the garage opened and closed. She doesn't say anything to me or our oldest kid about what time she wanted to leave or if we're ready to go, she just ... left. Well of COURSE we both want to go, but now we have to drive there separately. And he wins a TON of awards, one from his classmates, one from his teacher, and one from the school. I'd have been PISSED to have missed that. "Oh, I thought you didn't want to go..." was her reason later.
This past Saturday, I do ALL the yardwork 'cause she won't tell the kids to help and I'm frankly tired of having to ask for help. A few hours of yard work later, I tell my youngest to vacuum 'cause nobody vacuums around here unless I tell them to and honestly it's gross. I hop in the shower to clean up and cool down from the yard work. Youngest decides it's "too hot in the house" and sits in the kitchen to eat a popsicle instead of vacuuming. No backup from my wife at all on this, who's still parked on the couch. So I get upset with him, he does a half-assed job, says he's "tired' (from watching YouTube all day) and goes back to his room and we don't see him again the rest of the day. Again, no help or backup from my wife.
It's now 7pm in the house Saturday night, and -- shocker -- NOBODY has bothered to even ASK about dinner much less put any kind of food together. 8pm rolls around and my oldest finally emerges from his own room, starts thawing some chicken, and comes to ask me for help to make a meal, which I happily do. Until I get grumbly comments about "why are we eating so late." And my wife makes her way back to the couch. Not so much as a "thanks for cooking" or offer to clean up. And of COURSE nobody is doing the dishes, because DAD didn't remind anyone.
WHAT DO I DO??
19 years ago when we got married, this felt like a marriage. We did stuff together, we split things evenly, shared responsibility and chores, we both cooked, we bought groceries together. The first few years with kids were rough, but it at least FELT like a partnership once we figured out how to be parents. But something has shifted over the past decade, and this feels less and less like a partnership, much less feeling like a marriage. This whole relationship feels very one-sided, I get no appreciation for any of my constant hard work and being a provider. Instead, she's accused me, twice, of having an affair, once to the point of giving me anxiety/panic attacks for which I was almost hospitalized.
Now, she and the kids are noticing and talking behind my back (like I can't hear them) about the fact that I'm not wearing my wedding band anymore. Of course, the kids won't ask me directly, and I'm not bringing it up myself, and my wife's not talking to me anyway. Maybe she's still mad that I got mad a few weeks ago and walked out? Hard to know when the person won't talk to you unless they want something from you.
I'll put the damn ring back on when it feels like a marriage again. But then the next time it comes off, I think it'll stay off.
TL;DR! To this family, I feel that all I am to them is the income/paycheck and personal chef, and I'm ready to walk away. I can see why parents stay together "for the kids." As with most marriages, it started great; we've had bumpy times, but we always got through it together. Nothing like this, though. My wife won't communicate, gets defensive and angry, and doesn't contribute to the marriage or teach our kids about responsibility, so I look like a jerk all the time. Something has shifted over the past decade, and this feels less and less like a partnership. This whole relationship feels very one-sided, I get no appreciation for any of my constant hard work and being a provider.
submitted by XCanuck to relationships [link] [comments]


2024.05.20 23:33 Andrew_Not_T8 Recommendations for Christian marriage coaching/counseling?

Anyone had success with an online Christian marriage counselor or coach after infidelity? My wife and I both work strange hours so going to counseling is nearly impossible.
submitted by Andrew_Not_T8 to survivinginfidelity [link] [comments]


http://rodzice.org/