Update #3 appears at the bottom.
Due to numerous disparaging comments by multiple individuals, I have reposted my article.
Heckling does not change what occurred. People need to know these truths, especially those who have experienced the same. They need to know they are sane, that such things are indeed being perpetrated, and the perpetrators use shame to silence them and protect their activities.
I write to encourage them not to listen to disparaging people who speak without knowledge.
February 10, 2024
I am Joseph Cafariello, a Canadian citizen and ex-member of the Canadian military. Of sound mind, not on medication, not a drug user, not a marijuana smoker, not an alcohol drinker, with no mental disorders.
I recently posted to this Liberty subreddit experiences of harassment by Vancouver's police and fire departments (Vancouver, BC, Canada). I’m the fellow who was repeatedly ordered by police to stay out of Vancouver’s Stanley Park, and was continually harassed whenever I visited the park (which I do every second day on my early morning walks).
Immediately following that post, they changed some of the techniques they use in my case. They were either informed of my post or found it themselves, seeing as my internet activity, and phone activity for that matter, are under continuous surveillance (plenty of proof which I will not include here to avoid running off-topic).
In this post, I would like to shed some light on other harassment which is still ongoing, since it occurs in private, away from potential observers. It involves the Canadian and US militaries.
Havana Syndrome
In 2016, numerous employees of the Canadian and US embassies in Havana, Cuba, started experiencing head injuries ranging from mild headaches to concussions. It happened in their sleep, and came to be called Havana Syndrome.
Wikipedia explains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havana\_syndrome):
“Havana syndrome is a cluster of idiopathic symptoms experienced mostly abroad by U.S. government officials and military personnel. The symptoms range in severity from pain and ringing in the ears to cognitive dysfunction and were first reported in 2016 by U.S. and Canadian embassy staff in Havana, Cuba. Beginning in 2017, more people, including U.S. intelligence and military personnel and their families, reported having these symptoms in other places, such as China, India, Europe, and Washington, D.C. The U.S. Department of State, Department of Defense, and other federal entities have called the events "Anomalous Health Incidents" (AHI). Of over a thousand purported cases, the majority of US investigative bodies found only a few dozen cases to be suspicious.”
Ladies and gentlemen, I can tell you exactly what happens, because I have been experiencing this since I first joined the Canadian military back in 2002, and am still experiencing these “torments” (as I call them) to this day, already 3 years after leaving the military.
I go to bed. In about 15 minutes, just as I am on the cusp of falling asleep, a hear and feel a heavy thud reverberate and ultimately strike my skull. My body releases a sharp burst of adrenalin, my heart starts racing, and my blood’s circulation speeds up significantly. Depending on the severity of the blow, it can take me anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour to fall asleep again. Though there have been times I could not return to sleep for more than 2 hours.
A strong headache is felt immediately, and lasts for hours. There have been times when my heart felt like it was going to burst, having been startled as such.
The pulse to the head sometimes reverberates through the wall and my bed’s headboard. I distinctly feel as though I have been hit on the top of my skull. At other times, it feels as though the pulse has come through the air, striking the side of my skull.
This is not a sleep disorder, for it does not occur regularly. At times, my sleep is disturbed in this manner 3 or 4 days in a row. At other times, there is no disturbance for up to a week. But they never let me go more than a week without such interruptions to my sleep.
Neither is it sleep apnea, as I do not awaken gasping for breath. The pounding headaches, sudden release of adrenaline, and heart palpitations I experience are caused by external impacts of sound waves or air bursts.
Sonic Weapons
How these pulses are produced is not easy to identify. As Wikipedia explains:
“Once the story became public, various U.S. government representatives attributed the incidents to attacks by unidentified foreign actors, and various U.S. officials blamed the reported symptoms on a variety of unidentified and unknown technologies, including ultrasound and microwave weapons.”
Sonic weapons have been in use for many years by militaries, and by police in crowd control. As Wikipedia explains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic\_weapon):
“Some sonic weapons make a focused beam of sound or of ultrasound; others produce an area field of sound. As of 2023 military and police forces make some limited use of sonic weapons.”
(Do not believe the 2023 timeline. The Canadian military has been using these weapons since the early 2000’s at the latest.)
Wikipedia continues:
“Extremely high-power sound waves can disrupt or destroy the eardrums of a target and cause severe pain or disorientation. This is usually sufficient to incapacitate a person. Less powerful sound waves can cause humans to experience nausea or discomfort.”
The users of these technologies must also be using thermal detection equipment to monitor the target’s sleep. As I mentioned, I most often feel these blows the moment I am falling asleep. Body temperature drops when we sleep, and brain activity slows. Heat-detection equipment is likely being used to identify the point at which the target is falling asleep.
Why they prefer to strike at the start of someone’s sleep as opposed to the middle of their sleep, I do not know. Perhaps their intent is to deprive the body of early sleep, limiting the amount of deep sleep available to the person before their alarm rings in the morning.
Ordinary Hammers
Not all such “torments” (as I call them) are caused by high-tech equipment. I have heard and felt distinct hammer strikes running along the 2x4 beams inside my walls. These strikes can be a single hard strike, or several strikes in a row. It is definitely caused by a person with a hammer because the intervals between strikes are equidistant in time; that is, the time spacing between strikes is not random and does not change from strike to strike, but is constant between strikes, exactly as when someone is hammering. And no, it is not someone hanging pictures at 1:30 am, multiple times a week, for years.
On one occasion, when I was standing at my kitchen sink, I felt the floor-board directly under my feet pulse so sharply it felt like a brick had struck the soles of my feet. In this case, my military neighbour likely used a hammer to strike the floorboard on his side of the wall. It is the only plausible explanation.
Surveillance
This leads to surveillance of one’s activities at home. I have plenty of proofs of that. They seem insignificant on an individual basis. But when you put them all together, they present a clear picture of home surveillance.
My laptop computer’s lid cracked one night, at the bottom left corner of the screen. The next day at work, I heard my military supervisor relate to another co-worker that the night before, his laptop computer’s lid cracked at the bottom left corner. I swear to the Lord in Heaven, I am being truthful.
I tested my suspicion of being surveilled. At home one night, I blurted out-loud, “VW Passat. What an ugly sounding word, ‘Passat’”, I said. A few days later, my military colleagues at work started playing a card game at lunch, invented by one of them. The name he gave his game was “Passat”, and when he spoke it, he looked at me for a reaction. If you ever contact the Halifax military base, ask for the Claims Department and ask them if they are still playing Passat.
On another occasion, at a time when I frequented the gym every second day for a few years, I suspected my van had been fitted with a listening device. I suspected so because a number of things I had spoken with people about on my phone while in my van (nothing illegal) were repeated by people at the gym in conversations among themselves. Too many times, parts of other people's conversations matched parts of conversations I had had with others while I was in my van.
I already knew my phone was being tapped, but I also suspected my van was bugged. So one evening while driving in my van, I blurted out-loud a number of things I said I hated. "I hate (this or that)"; "I hate it when...". One of them was, "I hate when people chew gum with their mouths open." I then vocalized an exaggerated gnawing sound, "Gnaw. Gnaw. Gnaw."
The very next time I went to the gym, 2 days later, while I was at an exercise, a fellow sat at an exercise directly behind me. And sure enough, he started chewing with his mouth open, vocalizing that gnawing sound, "Gnaw. Gnaw. Gnaw." I didn't look behind at him, because I knew what was going on, and I wanted to avoid playing into his hand. So he repeated himself again and again until I was done and moved to a different station. Now, honestly, who chews gum at the gym? You can't. Or you run the risk of choking for the heavy breathing, not to mention when laying down on benches. And with precisely the same exaggerated vocalized gnawing sound I had made in my van just 2 days prior.
Their whole intent is to let you know you are being surveilled. They want you to know, as both a warning and a provocation. They want you to say something, to launch accusations, which they would readily deny, making you look paranoid. If you react too strongly, they could even have you diagnosed with some kind of disorder, and put you on medication, which further plays into their hand. (More regarding medications in the last section of this post.)
This is why, as I mentioned in my previous post, they would park their cars shining their high beams on me as I walked past them during my morning walk. And why on some occasions, a group of 3 or 4 would exit their cars and stand on my path just as I approached, forcing me to go around them. They would then remain standing on the path until my return trip through, and after I had passed by the second time, then would then return to their cars - making it absolutely clear I was their interest.
Their intent is not only to make me aware, but also to present themselves in close proximity to me, within easy reach, in the hope I would confront them, resulting in an altercation that could land me in a lot of hot water - 4 witnesses against me, all pleading innocence.
Again, it is all designed to make you look bad, and to warrant some kind of legal measure against you - preferably a medical diagnosis, discrediting you in everything you say about them. If they can't refute your claims, their only remaining option is to discredit you. That's what all of these tricks are designed to accomplish. Who would believe anything you say, once you have been diagnosed with a disorder?
There are plenty more examples. But who would really believe them? I’ll save them for the future.
Home Invasion
Both during and after my military service, I have had my apartments entered without any signs of break-ins. How? Lock-picking and duplicate keys. Indications? Missing objects; ie: money, phone adaptor, etc. Nothing major. Just something to make us understand we are being watched, and to make us understand what they can do.
But it is always something small, something for which you would be ridiculed for divulging.
Two more examples: I found my razor, which I always lay-down razor-end to the wall, turned around, razor-end toward me. Also, in one of my house slippers I found a small shoe sticker on the up-side of the heel. I had those slipper for years, and never had any shoe stickers on them. Yet there it was, clearly visible on the top surface of my slipper, not the bottom. Could I have stepped on a shoe sticker when barefoot in my apartment, only to have the sticker transfer itself to my slipper when I wore it? How many shoe stickers do you have laying around your apartment that you can accidentally step onto?
If I had stepped onto a sticker in my apartment and had it stick to my heel, that means the sticky side was up against my skin. This means the sticker would have had to flip upside down such that the sticky side would then be down, allowing the sticker to stick to the slipper. Do you really think that happened? That sticker was not there when I left my apartment, but it was there when I returned. And it was the wrong sticker, wrong brand, wrong size.
Again, what is their intent? To make someone look ridiculous so no one will believe them should they speak of other more sensitive things.
Staged Incidents
The above incidents clearly point to coordinated and staged events (at my work, my home, on my walks, etc). This is so frequently met with incredulity. "But that would require coordination on the part of so many people," the public dismisses. "They wouldn't do that."
Oh yes they would, and they have, as explained in https://fightgangstalking.com/. Note the documented cases involving the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS, Canada's equivalent to the US' CIA) and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP, Canada's national police force) in the second quote, which were reported in national newspapers.
From https://fightgangstalking.com/:
“Disruption operations often involve tactics which are illegal, but difficult to prove. These tactics include – but are not limited to – overt surveillance (stalking), slander, blacklisting, “mobbing” (intense, organized harassment in the workplace), “black bag jobs” [home invasions], abusive phone calls, computer hacking, framing, threats, blackmail, vandalism, “street theater” (staged physical and verbal interactions with minions of the people who orchestrate the stalking), harassment by noises, and other forms of bullying. Many of these tactics were used by the FBI during its illegal COINTELPRO operations, as documented by stolen official documents and subsequent Congressional investigations.
"Although the general public is mostly unfamiliar with the practice, references to “disruption” operations – described as such – do occasionally appear in the news media, even though that fact would apparently be news to the editors of The New York Times. In May 2006, for example, an article in The Globe and Mail, a Canadian national newspaper, reported that the Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS) and the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) used “Diffuse and Disrupt” tactics against suspects for whom they lacked sufficient evidence to prosecute. A criminal defense attorney stated that many of her clients complained of harassment by authorities, although they were never arrested."
She can add me to that list too.
For the Benefit of Others
The experiences I have recounted here seem so trivial, so insignificant, they make you look ridiculous if you talk about them. But if we don’t talk about such things, no one will ever know about them. Other people have experienced the same, and are forced to endure such torments in silence. They need encouragement to talk about their own experiences, and so I write about mine in the hope they will talk about theirs, even if I do look ridiculous. The perpetrators are more ridiculous for doing them.
I remember a military colleague being hauled away by military police one morning, as she was struggling and having a violent fit. A fellow on her floor told me she was throwing chairs at her walls screaming, “Stop it! Stop it! Stop it!”. When he mentioned that, I knew exactly what they had done to her. She was considered unruly, and was being watched intently. They wanted her out, and that is how they accomplished it. Through wall tapping and sleep deprivation, they push you to the breaking point. And when you finally lose control and do something rash, they pounce on you, and you’re out. Now she has a criminal record, considered a criminal when in reality she was a victim. Welcome to the Canadian military, and other militaries besides, I am sure.
There are dozens upon dozens of experiences I could present. But who will really read them? Worse still, who will really believe them? I overheard my military supervisor in Halifax whisper to another, “Do you think he knows?”, after I had mentioned one of the many “coincidences” I experienced, but with a tone of my being aware it was not a mere coincidence. As I turned my face to my computer screen, I whispered under my breath, but still loud enough for him to hear, “Yes, (rank) (name), I know.” A few minutes later, as he walked past my desk, he leaned in by my ear and whispered, “We’re just trying to help you.” I should have pressed him for answers right then and there, but you just don’t know how much trouble you can get into when making such accusations in the military. So I let it go. But I will never forget.
Should anyone reading this ever decide to launch some kind of inquiry, I can mention names of over 100 people to contact, including military personnel, family members, neighbours, building managers, and others who have been contacted by military personnel with false narratives about me. They flash their ID’s and other credentials, and people believe anything they say. They turn family, friends, co-workers and neighbours against you, even recruiting their participation. Your acquaintances not only participate, but actually feel justified and emboldened playing tricks on you. It isn't their fault, though; they have been misled. I would reference them solely for corroboration.
As a final thought, here are explanations of two military programs in which certain persons (sometimes military, sometimes civilian) are kept under constant surveillance, and are in some cases subjected to conditioning in an attempt to turn them into what is called a “sleeper agent”. Almost all of the tactics presented below have been experience by me, including constant surveillance (ie: my previous post here regarding being harassed on my morning walks) and sleep deprivation (as per the top portion of this post, which other military members in Cuba and elsewhere around the world have also experienced).
Pentagon’s Signature Reduction Program
See Newsweek’s article: https://www.newsweek.com/exclusive-inside-militarys-secret-undercover-army-1591881
Some excerpts from that Newsweek article, plus more background information on the Pentagon’s Signature Reduction Program, can be found here: https://fightgangstalking.com/
“The largest undercover force the world has ever known is the one created by the Pentagon over the past decade. Some 60,000 people now belong to this secret army, many working under masked identities and in low profile, all part of a broad program called “signature reduction.” The force, more than ten times the size of the clandestine elements of the CIA, carries out domestic and foreign assignments, both in military uniforms and under civilian cover, in real life and online, sometimes hiding in private businesses and consultancies, some of them household name companies.
“…a little-known sector of the American military, but also a completely unregulated practice. No one knows the program’s total size, and the explosion of signature reduction has never been examined for its impact on military policies and culture. Congress has never held a hearing on the subject. And yet the military developing this gigantic clandestine force challenges U.S. laws, the Geneva Conventions, the code of military conduct and basic accountability.
“…The signature reduction effort engages some 130 private companies to administer the new clandestine world. Dozens of little known and secret government organizations support the program, doling out classified contracts and overseeing publicly unacknowledged operations.
"Federal spy agencies are using Americans to spy on their fellow citizens – the same approach to governance famously employed by communist East Germany."
How to Develop a Hypnotic Sleeper Agent
By Dantalion Jones / Masters of Mind Control
The following “was” on the web, but has been removed. Surprise, surprise. But I saved its web files to my computer years ago, knowing that sooner or later it would be removed. I made a jpeg image of the web page as it once appeared, attached here.
Note that I have experienced almost all of the tactics described below, including the stalking I mentioned in my previous post here (regular walks in the park), the sleep deprivation noted at the top of this post, and the surveillance and intrusions described here as well.
Quoting the now-removed webpage: “How to Develop a Hypnotic Sleeper Agent” (from here to end of post):
Amid all the conspiracy theories one of the most feared is that there exist "sleeper agents" in our society who are programmed to come into service when they are triggered by a phone call or key word.
These alleged sleeper agents don't even know they are programmed to become saboteurs, soldiers, suicide bomber, etc because of the thoroughness of their programming. They are the feared "Manchurian Candidate" that the movies portray.
The question is "Are they real?"
If they are true sleeper agents there is no way of telling until they are activated. One can however theorize exactly how they are made.
Indoctrination
Using indoctrination a person can be made to embrace a religious or philosophical belief that would make becoming a sleeper agent possible.
This would be a person so committed to an ideal they would be willing to wait patiently as a member of society until they are called into action. These people would know their mission and consciously hold it secret while interacting with the rest of society.
Conditioning
Conditioning is a repetitive process where the desired responses are enforced and rewarded and unwanted responses are punished. This can be done consciously as part of training drill and it can be done subconsciously using hypnosis or drugs to create amnesia.
Hypnosis
It has been demonstrated that hypnosis can create "amnesia walls" in which the subject has no conscious memory of what happened in the hypnosis session. It has further been demonstrated that hypnosis can give post hypnotic instruction to be carried out automatically in the waking state without the subject knowing it or questioning the behavior.
What follows is conjecture and theory based on testimonials of people who were alleged to be sleeper agents and soldiers.
Continuous Supervisions
Continuous supervision doesn't mean that the subject is cut off completely from society. It means that they are constantly overseen and every aspect of their lives are managed (without their knowledge or consent) to support their hypnotic programming.
This would include:
• Repeated reinforcement of all hypnotic conditioning.
• Handlers. Handlers are people who help maintain the subjects environment to maintain all the programming. They can play the role of family, friends, lovers, psychologists, coaches or any roll the subject perceives as supportive. The truth is the handlers are their to support the successful fulfillment of the programming and not the subject as a person.
• Minimal sleep so that the mind/brain does not process all the sleeper conditioning during sleep.
• Creating constant environmental challenges like unemployment or poverty. This gives the subject something other than their programming to focus on.
• Frequent hospitalization. This gives overt opportunity to sedate the subject for conditioning. If the subject has a history of hospitalizations for mental disturbances all the better. No one will take them seriously.
Joseph Cafariello
PS... Today is the second day after this post (February 12, 2024). A garbage truck just slammed into my parked car.
PPS... I finish writing this post because I am satisfied with its shape and content; not because of what happened to my car.
It is similar to when you are reaching for your coat, and someone tells you, "Take your coat." Since you have to take your coat, your brain tells you it's ok to obey them, and you comply. They just created an instance where they led you, and you followed them. And your brain accepted it.
It's a technique the military uses all the time. It trains you to accept instructions from that person or group. Done enough times, you become comfortable obeying them.
I just say, "I take my coat because I choose to, not because you tell me to." It's important to make that clear, to block the conditioning and affirm our self-governance; not just to them, but to ourselves as well. Now our brain realizes we took our coat by our own choice; we are still in command.
So too, I say regarding today's event. "Thanks for the warning, but I had already finished writing my post. I finished by my own choosing."
UPDATES 1 & 2: February 26 & March 07, 2024:
My apartment was once again entered while I was out. Either a key was used or the lock was picked. This may or may not have included assistance from building staff. Home invasions are included in the list of their techniques noted above, referred to as "black bag jobs".
All tenants on my floor received new fridges a couple of weeks ago. I removed the tape securing the bins inside my new fridge, and also removed all styrofoam pads from the corners of the glass shelves when I repositioned them.
The person(s) who have been invading my living space on a regular basis have struck again. As you can see in the photo below, the styrofoam pads on the corners of my fridge's shelves were restored when I was out of my apartment. I had removed all pads when I repositioned the shelves. Yet now they are back.
It is a tactic used to undermine our observational awareness in an attempt to make us second-guess and doubt ourselves. The aim is to cause people to feel less sure not only of the things we have done, but also feel less sure of the things others have done. They want us to question the accuracy of our observations and memory.
The idea is to train you to dismiss any anomalies you may observe as being your own misperception of things. Once they convince you not to trust your own judgement, they are free to do whatever they want to you, and you will simply accept it without questioning.
UPDATE 3: May 18, 2024:
Confrontations with individuals keep occurring, at times potentially violent. Following are just 3 such encounters as of late.
1 - Kick-boxer in the park:
As I parked my car in one of the parking lots in Vancouver's Stanley Park one night, another vehicle drove up behind me and parked several spots away. A tall man exited that vehicle, and walked hastily along the path I always walk, down some steps to the water's sea wall path. I took my time and followed my usual walk, also down the steps down to the sea wall. The man knew my routine, and was in a hurry to get ahead of me.
As I walked along the sea wall, I saw the same man sitting on a bench, playing a loud Persian-sounding religious sermon on some device I did not clearly see. As I walked past him, he called out to me to stop and chat. I ignored him and continued walking past him. He rose and started walking behind me.
I opened my umbrella, turned, and walked past him the other way, returning to the stairs back to the parking lot. He also turned and continued following me. I started running. He also started running. I ran up the steps, as did he.
Being taller than I am, his legs are longer than mine, and he quickly caught up to me on a grassy patch at the top of the steps. I turned to him and asked, "Why are you following me?" He did not reply, but stood profile to me, the same stance a kick-boxer uses when ready to kick someone. He was tall, thin, and in excellent physical shape as you would see in a kick-boxer.
He did not speak at all, but was just waiting for me to make a move. I turned, entered my vehicle and left. The encounter continued with a chase through the park in our cars. Yes, that is correct. He chased me out of the park in his car.
2 - Told to keep quiet:
The perpetrators need to operate with as little detection as possible, and they repeatedly warn their subjects to keep their mouths shut about their experiences.
On another of my recent nightly walks, a man stood on the sidewalk ahead of me about half a block away, looked at me, and shouted into the sky at nobody, giving the appearance of being a homeless person shouting for no reason. He then started walking in my direction. I continued walking straight. As he passed me, he leaned into my face and shouted into my ear, "Shut the f_ck up!" I continued walking in my direction, and he resumed walking in his.
The idea is to make it seem as though he is just a deranged man wandering the streets at night, shouting at nothing, so that when he shouts at me, any observer would simply dismiss his actions. But in reality, he was sent to send me a message to stop publishing posts like this, which I had done many times on many sites, and continue to. They don't like it when we reveal their methods. But the truth must be known.
3 - You'll be sorry:
On another occasion, while returning from grocery shopping one afternoon, I walked past a man sitting by a storefront. He was clean-cut, wearing clean clothes, without any carts or wagons or any belongings of any kind. As I passed him, he asked me for some spare change. I replied, "I'm sorry," and continued walking past. He replied, "You will be."
There are numerous other experiences, like two seemingly unassociated men standing on the sea wall about 100 meters away from each other, each of them spitting just as I walked past each one.
There are too many experiences to mention. Looking at each experience individually, one would easily dismiss them as being unrelated and simply coincidental. But put them all together and a picture starts to form, like putting together the pieces of a puzzle.
As I hand you each piece of the puzzle one by one, you dismiss each piece, saying, "This could be anything." And you discard it. You keep discarding each piece as I hand it to you. By the end of it, you look down at the table and say, "You have nothing." That's because you looked at each piece as a separate item and threw it away. But if you leave the pieces on the table as I hand them to you and do not hastily discard them, you will see they form a clear picture when put all together.
We must look at all these events as a whole. Individually, each one could be anything. But when all of these experiences are put together and considered as a whole, they form an undeniable picture. Do not be quick to dismiss each piece. Leave the pieces on the table and look at the whole. The picture I present is sound. Remember, I have all the pieces; you do not. I see the picture more clearly than you do.
https://preview.redd.it/we31ymcsm91d1.jpg?width=966&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3d56ac3dd3558a60d477ba9315104d1b66b139f8

uh

https://www.cowboysindians.com/2024/05/kevin-costner-no-bull-no-compromises/
by Joe Leydon
May 14, 2024
At the heart of HORIZON: AN AMERICAN SAGA, the prodigiously ambitious and dramatically potent western epic starring and directed by Kevin Costner, there is a scene where the commander of a far-flung 1860s Army post (Danny Huston) explains to a concerned subordinate (Sam Worthington) why, despite the rigors of overland travel by wagon train, and despite the repeated attacks by Indians who are understandably protective of their land, nothing will stop the seemingly endless waves of pioneers bent on settling the West.
“These people,” the commander says, not entirely sympathetically, “think that if they’re tough enough, smart enough, and mean enough, all this will be theirs someday. There’s no army of this earth that will stop those wagons coming. Little as they be wanted.”
But what will happen when those hearty pioneers see along the sides of the trail the countless graves of those who went before them, and didn’t survive the journey?
The commander shrugs. The newcomers will think they’re luckier, and that they’ll survive and thrive. “And you know what?” he adds. “Some of them will.”
Costner intends HORIZON as ultimately a series of four films — with the first two opening this summer, June 28 and August 16 — that, while focusing on a roughly 15-year period before and after the Civil War, will dramatize, even-handedly and excitingly, how the allure and promise of new lives in a new land fueled an unshakable belief in what has become known, for better or worse, as Manifest Destiny. Some of the characters journey westward to fulfill dreams. Others move along to escape lives that have become nightmares.
And still others — specifically, the Native Americans who inhabit the lands that the settlers covet — must cope with the repeated appearances by these intruders.
Some live. Some die. And, yes, some kill.
Costner earns his top billing in HORIZON with his meticulously understated yet richly detailed performance as Hayes Ellison, the traditionally laconic western protagonist who never goes looking for trouble — goes out of his way to avoid it, actually — yet finds it follows him like a faithful dog. But he is just first among many in an exceptional ensemble cast that also includes (in Part 1) Sienna Miller, Sam Worthington, Giovanni Ribisi, Jena Malone, Abbey Lee, Michael Rooker, Danny Huston, Luke Wilson, Isabelle Fuhrman, Jeff Fahey, Will Patton, Tatanka Means, Owen Crow Shoe, Ella Hunt, and Jamie Campbell Bower.
I caught up with Costner in March — by sheer coincidence, the 33rd anniversary of the night he won Oscar gold as Best Director of Best Picture winner DANCES WITH WOLVES (1990) — just as he was putting the finishing touches on HORIZON: AN AMERICAN SAGA, PART II. Since he’d recently been under so much pressure while making not just one but two epics while avoiding tabloid reports about his possible departure from the popular TV series Yellowstone and the breakup of his 20-year marriage, I figured it might be a great idea to break the ice with a different spin on a predictable question.
Cowboys & Indians: So, it’s been quite a while since you directed this actor, Kevin Costner. Since the terrific 2003 western Open Range, *as a matter of fact. Has he learned anything since you last worked with him?*
Kevin Costner: [Laughs] It’s really hard to know. I mean, I look at this movie, and the thing that stands out to me is not what I’ve learned, but maybe what I’ve brought to bear in getting it shot in 52 days. I shot DANCES in 106, WYATT EARP (1994) was about 115, and we did this in 52 — and it’s actually as big if not bigger than both of those.
C&I: But your lead actor wasn’t one of your problems?
Costner: I am a better actor now than I was. I’ve consciously tried to become better — but I typically don’t give myself as much time as the other actors. And it takes somebody else to say, “Why don’t you give yourself another take?” But nobody was indulged on this movie. I didn’t move until I thought I had it. But as I’ve been in that editorial process, I can’t tell you how many times when I’ve seen a scene as I’m editing it, and I think, “Okay, that’s really good. Let’s see the second take.” And I get this dumb look from my editors and they go, “That’s all there is, one take.” And so I’ve got coverage — as you can see, it blends together really well. But we were out there on the razor’s edge trying to get through those days when you’re not doing one scene a day, but doing three.
C&I: I think it’s safe to say this has been a labor of love for you. I mean, you have mentioned HORIZON *to me as a dream project several times over the years. And at one point, you even said, “This might even be three movies.” Well, you’ve kind of upped the ante a little bit, haven’t you?*
Costner: Well, as Mark Twain said, “He didn’t exaggerate, he just remembered big.” It went to four — what can I say? It’s a labor of love. And the reality is, I don’t fall out of love with something I think is good. I just continue to push it. I mean, the wisdom of having the first one, written in 1988, be essentially rejected — nobody saw any value in it — and me turning around and not putting it in the drawer, but instead come out firing and write four more is kind of ... I don’t know. That’s probably therapy stuff, right? Somebody might say, “Why would you do that?” I mean, conventional wisdom was not allowing this movie to be made. But that being said, my feeling about conventional wisdom is: What if everybody’s wrong?
C&I: Do you think if Yellowstone had not come along and become as popular as it has, you might still be out there beating the bushes trying to find somebody to back HORIZON?
Costner: No, not at all. Because I used my own money this time. Nobody beat the door down for the four. They rejected all four. I put my own money up. I was just going to do it because I realized I needed to work more. I lost a whole year when we didn’t work on Yellowstone. And I realized that couldn’t happen again. And so I just recommitted myself to HORIZON, essentially burned my ships, and I realized it was time to do this for, really, a lot of reasons.
C&I: Such as?
Costner: I just thought it was a really good offering. And that’s really what I’m in the business for, to offer up a level of entertainment that gets over my bar, that I think can entertain not only the person watching it opening weekend, but somebody watching it 30 years from now.
C&I: How difficult has it been for you to focus on the task at hand, which is in effect making two movies and finishing them to be released in the same year? I don’t have to tell you, you’ve had your personal life in the tabloids. You’ve had your professional life in the tabloids. How do you decide not to talk about the divorce, or Yellowstone, *and simply focus on making this scene match that scene?*
Costner: Well, people are going to write what they want to write, and people are responsible for what they say in these things. And I look at what’s being said in many instances, and I know the truth, but I don’t feel the need to try to set the record straight every time there’s something going on. I mean, now I can talk about these things because we’re talking about them within the lines with my movie. I don’t try to live in the press outside of making movies. But when people are saying all these things, you don’t really see me say much. I know what’s true. And you can read between the lines. Like, you never thought I’m really a person who only wanted to work one week [on Yellowstone]? You don’t believe that was true?
C&I: [Laughs] No, Kevin, I really don’t.
Costner: So, I could tell you exactly how that came about, but that’s simply not the truth. And I’m always kind of disappointed that people can’t set the record straight. That’s just simply not true. I had given Yellowstone 25 days in November and December [of 2022], 25 days of my shooting, but the scripts never came. I gave them the month of March per a contract, and the scripts didn’t come. So, I really am going to make my movie, because I have 300 people waiting.
So, I said, “Look, I will stop for a week before I start to shoot. And if you want to kill me, or you want to do something elegant for the show, because I love the show — I’ll give you a week.” So for them to take that gesture, and that’s all that was — and look, I don’t know any director that would take a week off before he started shooting, but I gave them the most valuable thing I had, which was time, three different times. And to turn around and use that as a statement against me is disappointing. And it was disappointing that nobody on that side would come out and say, “That’s just simply not true. He offered that as a gesture when we couldn’t figure out how to do things.”
C&I: So basically what you’re saying is because of the Yellowstone *production delays ...*
**Costner:* Let’s get the scripts, let’s go do it. But it’s hard to write that much. And there’s a tremendous load on [producer and series co-creator Taylor Sheridan], but I have to take care of myself. Make no mistake, I love Yellowstone. I love the people that love it. I wanted to keep making that and making this movie. I didn’t do HORIZON because I wasn’t doing Yellowstone anymore. I did HORIZON because I wanted to do HORIZON while I was doing Yellowstone. Yellowstone had a first position, and in each instance, it was negotiated for. I gave them a preferential spot every time. Every time. So I felt like I needed somebody on that side to speak up and say that version, and they never did. I don’t know why. I don’t know why that was so hard. It just confused the cast and it confused the people who love the show.
C&I: While we’re talking, they still haven’t started filming the final Season 5 episodes of Yellowstone. *Is it reasonable to expect you’ll make some sort of appearance in at least one of them?*
Costner: I don’t know that it’s reasonable. I know I’m open to it, but I don’t know that it’s reasonable to think that it can happen. I don’t have anything to do with how they are doing things. I like the character. I’d love to see it go on. I’d love for it to continue to be inventive.
C&I: Let’s get back to HORIZON. Back when I interviewed you for our cover story on OPEN RANGE (2003), you mentioned that HOW THE WEST WAS WON (1962) was one of your all-time favorite westerns, not only because it had spectacle, but a love story as well. How much did HOW THE WEST WAS WON influence you while making HORIZON *?*
Costner: Well, I saw HOW THE WEST WAS WON when I was seven. And I think if it could engage a 7-year-old boy to not look at his watch, and be able to watch the screen on his own, it just informed me that if things are interesting, if they’re compelling, if the screen picture is continuing to change and when it changes, it changes to something equally interesting, and then it starts to form a weave and suddenly these things that you were willing to watch on an individual basis began to somehow get closer and closer together, and then all of a sudden you see intersections — I love that kind of storytelling. And that’s what I have tried to do with HORIZON.
C&I: So you finished the first two, is that correct? Or are you still editing the second film?
Costner: Yeah, I’m looking to finish the montage for the end of [PART] 2. Just the way you saw a montage happen at the end of [PART] 1 — it advances things — this material has to be pulled from [PART] 3. So I was actually writing [PART] 3 when I walked over here to talk with you. I was starting to bend the scene to my will.
C&I: When will you know for certain you can go ahead with [PARTS] 3 and 4?
Costner: Well, you know for certain I’m going to make them.
C&I: There you go, C&I readers! You’ve heard it straight from Kevin Costner himself!
Costner: [Laughs] But it’s not an easy task to go out and find that kind of money. I’ve run out of property I can mortgage. I mean, I see where it says something like I have $20 million into the film, right? You’ve read that.
C&I: Yes, but ...
Costner: Well, it’s not — it’s $38 million, okay? Cash. It’s $38 million. And if it has to be, it will be more. You might ask yourself, “A person who writes [PART] 4 when no one liked [PART] 1? What is it going to take for you to get the message?” But to me, it’s like, I will look and see what I own and maybe keep a few things that I won’t forfeit, but I don’t want to hold onto things so tight that I can’t accomplish the things I want to accomplish.
Maybe the reason I have some nice things that I could risk is because this is the life I chose, and so I can identify the amount of things I need, what my family needs. But some of these other things, for as much as I’ve worked for them, and hard, I’m also not going to be a slave and hold onto them and let something else that I’m trying to do suffer when they’re sitting right there. You could, biblically speaking, look at them and go, that’s why they were there.
And I’m not going to lose it. I’m going to make it. I’m going to look at those graves where those people are on the side of the road, and I’m not going to be with them, Joe. I’m going to get there.
This cover story appeared in our July 2024 issue.
PHOTOGRAPHY: Richard Foreman, Courtesy Warner Bros. Pictures

I've been going back and forth trying to figure out how to fix this, anyone have a clue? i've tried repairing it and reinstalling the editor. can't find the files anywhere
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