TLDR because I realized after finishing that this is absolutely massive; Pucci with MiH has means to defeat his top tier contenders like Josuke, Johnny, Valentine and Giorno and it isn't that farfetched to believe he's a top 3 in the verse.
The top JoJo's characters have been pretty much common sense for a while now. Wonder of U, GER, Tusk, SnW:GB, D4C:LT, MiH, Heavy Weather,... (these are not in order, I just named them off the top of my head). I agree with the lists most times, except for many times where Pucci is placed. What if I told you Pucci can realistically be top 3 at least, if not top 2 (very situational)? Stay with me now. It is currently 00:32 AM, bored out of my mind with the Bleach OST blasting in my ears, so I decided fuck it, let me write this up as it's been on my mind debating myself for a couple days now. So to break this down, I'm just going to go over some general basics like who and why the top is well... the top.

Who are the top JoJo's characters? And why?

There are still ongoing debates on where some characters place specifically. Wonder of U is unanimously agreed on being the strongest stand in JoJo's and I agree. The debates come later though, like who is top 2? Can Tusk Act 4 bypass RTZ? Can Go Beyond kill Giorno before Giorno gets Gappy? Can Love Train contest with Wonder of U? All of these are valid topics people use to debate who deserves the top 2 or top 3 spot.
Wonder of U is unanimously accepted to be THE strongest stand due to the many statements behind it in part 8 that justify its abstract existence, dura neg, logic manipulation and just its overall insanely powerful hax ability and it was only barely defeated in a 3v1 (in which 1 of them had A LOT of knowledge and prep time) with the need of an ability that completely defied all laws of physics and universal logic. It worked because it logically should never work.
Go Beyond has arguments towards being the strongest since well... it beat Wonder of U. But then come the arguments that Josuke simply had a lot of help to barely pull it off to begin with, let alone doing it solo. So Go Beyond is already not above Wonder of U, but what about everyone else? I mean, it's an ability that doesn't exist but exists at the same time. It doesn't make logical sense, and that's what makes it so powerful. It has no logical counterplay to it and general defenses like RTZ (will come to it later), Love Train (will also come to it), infinity, GGGH,... just cannot negate and these are abilities the characters that use them rely heavily on to be threats. GER wouldn't be what it is without RTZ, same for D4C, Gojo and the Green Baby, so that makes Go Beyond pretty strong and a very big threat by default. the one issue with it is it's just way too unreliable to pull off consistently. It took Josuke the help of Yasuho and Paisley Park to guide his bubble to WoU, and then a direct point blank shot to WoU's face to finally put it down, even then he had to tank and push through many calamities sent towards him. So Go Beyond just simply isn't reliable enough to justify it being that strong, especially when the other stands just have more consistently strong abilities.
Tusk Act 4. This stand basically does everything you could ask. Basically unrivaled offensive capabilities with the infinite rotation, very flexible range with the wormholes,... The one thing holding it back is the setup it needs to be pulled off. Johnny NEEDS to ride on a horse and reached the perfect sync state between jockey and horse to form the golden ratio and channel the infinite rotation. This is a prerequisite that cannot be argued. Johnny had to use Slow Dancer against Valentine and then had to do the same thing to save Jorge from the misfortune put upon him when Johnny wished to save his wife. What makes Tusk so powerful is the IF it lands aspect. The only counterplay to the infinite rotation is simply cutting your affected limb off before it spreads, and Diego only managed to do that thanks to prior intel and the insane resolve it took to chop his leg off with no regret. The other counter to it is if Johnny himself decides to spare you, so I can't really count it as counterplay. The infinite rotation has been shown and stated to have the strongest gravitational influence in the JoJo's verse since it has unanimous control over the entire multiverse purely through gravitational influence. MiH only has universal influence, C-Moon's influence is way more personal.
D4C:LT. Only the greatest defensive ability in the JoJo's verse. A power able to redirect any misfortune towards the user to any timeline in the multiverse and attract fortune to the "center" (in this case, Valentine). This ability has caused massive scale environmental destruction, basically colliding the forest with the sea purely through attraction, while also killing Gyro simply by rejecting any potential dangers. The only way this ability was defeated was by having an attack that can affect the entire multiverse at once hit it, basically preventing it from redirecting the attack to another timeline since the attack already exists in these timelines to begin with. Love Train is one of these "just because A beats B and C is stronger than A, doesn't mean C beats B". There are legitimate arguments to believe Love Train can redirect all of WoU's calamities. The corpse has shown direct fortune manipulation in part 8 when Johnny prayed to the corpse to cure his wife from her illness, only to redirect the misfortune to his son, then redirected the infinite rotation back to Johnny when it was struck when Johnny used it on Jorge to cure him, only for calamity to strike Johnny later on very Wonder of U like when the boulder crushed him. The corpse has shown direct manipulation over the concept of fortune and misfortune, which is the foundation that built the calamities Wonder of U uses (calamities are basically misfortunes specifically targeted towards someone). Yet Love Train lost to Tusk, so does that make Tusk stronger than WoU? No.
GER. The previously believed to be strongest stand in the verse. Maybe it could've been sheer popularity since the part 5 anime garnered a lot of hype, which attracted a massive amount of people, spawning many misconceptions, highballs,... that simply do not make sense and well, many fans just weren't familiar with the manga, where most of the truly OP stands were invented. RTZ is what made GER what it is in the powerscaling scene today. A very strong ability that will revert and nullify the will and actions of any person who poses a threat to Giorno, no matter Giorno's physical state. The issue is, unless you're posing a direct threat to kill Giorno, RTZ will not activate (no, doing things like exploding the planet will not work since that technically still counts as a threat that can harm or kill Giorno, in this case kill). Now, the only form of counterplay we've seen for GER isn't even canon since it came from the Eyes of Heaven game where Over Heaven DIO rewrote GER's reality and made it that it can't nullify DIO's attacks (this happened the moment TWOH and GER clashed fists), but due to the canonity of the feat being all over the place, we just can't take it as fact, but by following general rules like the fact RTZ works through the manipulation of cause and effect, then by logical construction, forms of acausality bypass RTZ, so there's the counterplay, which is by no means an easy or accessible way to beat someone. so GER is indeed pretty strong and a very strong contender.
MiH, the main contender of this post and the whole reason I'm making it. Now, many people like to downplay MiH by saying it needs to speed up to be a threat, which I disagree. Pucci was speedblitzing Jotaro very early into time's acceleration and by comparing the watch's seconds arm to the moment on the rooftop compared to the moment in the ocean, the speed difference was MASSIVE. By that we can already say base MiH is at least FTL+ so no, in a lot of cases, Pucci does not have to play the waiting game (yes many characters are way faster than that, but many aren't. FTL+ is pretty fast for most verses if we're sticking to the action-adventure shounens). Now, of course, it still means you should try to deal with Pucci as soon as possible because the longer you wait, the bigger his advantage becomes. MiH has shown virtually no weaknesses other than large scale environmental manipulation to disrupt Pucci's bodily functions. MiH's base speed is already faster than most, if not all, of the stands I mentioned above (the only arguable ones would be Tusk and GER). Now, for me what makes MiH so strong and I don't know if it's overlooked or not, but it's the fact Pucci has complete control over the timeline once the universe resets.

Why I believe Made in Heaven is consistently stronger than most of the stands I mentioned above.

Pucci simply has ways to defeat many of the stands that are in the top 5 purely through the fact he can go to the moment where they're weak and beat them. The catch is, Pucci needs to play his cards right for him to be able to pull it off, but I personally don't think it's a stretch that he can pull it off if we go by his BIQ feats in part 6. Pucci is a fighter that plans ahead. He's been building up to the Heaven Plan ever since he heard news of DIO's defeat and learned he'll have to take over DIO's teachings and pull it off himself, he is the successor, the one that inherited DIO's heaven, the resolution of one's destiny. Many of the stands I have noted above have a prerequisite of getting attacked or having a direct threat posed onto them to trigger, like GER and Love Train; or they're simply too situational and unreliable to consistently pull off, like Go Beyond.
Other than WoU, the only legitimate threats I see for Pucci are Tusk and GER. Now, because Tusk exists in every timeline all at once, you could argue the infinite rotation will just ignore the universe's reset but that's taking into account if you believe the parts 1-6 canon has a multiverse like the parts 7-9 canon, yet stating so is headcanon since both canons are completely unrelated to each other so there is no legitimate proof the original JoJo's canon has a multiverse for Tusk to exist in. In fact, a singular universe cosmology is more favored thanks to the universe reset visual explanation we got stating the creation of a new world that can be seen as a parallel dimension, the "start of a new world",... So tusk's threat now mostly relies on the conditions behind the fight. Where does it take place? A vacuum? The original canon? The new canon?
Now GER on the other hand is where it gets tough for Pucci because whether he wins completely relies on if he attacks Giorno or not. If Pucci decides Giorno is too big of a threat to let move on to the new universe, then he'll attack Giorno and trigger RTZ, effectively losing to Giorno. But if he doesn't attack him, then this will allow him to reset the universe then go back to where Giorno doesn't have Requiem and fight him then. This enters way too much into speculation and I would like to believe that by default, Pucci will most likely look into disposing of Giorno before moving on to the new universe (which won't work). Just that there is a CHANCE Pucci wins, just very unlikely.
Now, I get the arguments in saying that while Pucci has control over the timeline, he still isn't above fate or others' destinies. The reason he lost is because Emporio is destined to escape Green Dolphin St. and go to Cape Canaveral (which was heavily implied to have happened when Ermes's counterpart suggests stopping by the space station when the crew hitch-hikes with Anakiss and irene). So saying he can just go back to before they got their abilities just won't work because of their destiny, they are "fated to move on". The issue with this argument is we're already breaking "destiny" by having them fight to begin with, so anything fate related to prevent Pucci is just thrown out the window, but I can see the argument being valid in some cases.
In conclusion, I'm not saying Pucci is stronger than them in crossverse battles. I do believe he is a better contender in fights from verses like Naruto, One Piece, Dragon Ball,... since he bypasses the AP limitations GER has and the speed limitations and setup Tusk might have while Tusk and GER will stomp weaker verses like JJK and Demon Slayer where these limitations aren't that big of an issue. I'm mostly looking at this in battles purely between JoJo's characters. Anyways, the Bleach OST absolutely slaps and don't drink caffeine at 12 AM.

Have lost more games in the past week due to glitches or rubberbanding that the amount of people that are still even playing this wonky ass glitch filled piece of shit game.
There is no fixing this game, it can't be done. The power of all the killers is so insanely over the top that if you can type chat or voice chat with 1 person you'll team wipe every time and do it with ease.
Legit every single character has a glitch that will cost you the game.
Cook hearing glitch so im lit up the whole game.
Bubba hitting me with the big swing attack while he is a whole 10-12 feet away from me in game. Along with his boxes randomly not allowing you to jump over so you die.
Johnny swing is insanely broken and will kill you in 2 hits without no sell because if you run or well you bleed out or he just lunges faster than you can do anything else.
Sissy is probably the only balanced one but even with her she has the perk to drop powder after an encounter so fighting her could get you killed.
Nancy don't even get me started her traps constantly bug out and the animation is stupidly long to take it off without a scrap. Not to mention let's not forget she gets to instantly see your location for free and it's on a timer she doesn't have to earn it in any way. Sure she is slow but plenty of builds work around that plus she can poison to slow you down.
Hitch is insanely broken and runs at the speed of light along with being able to take 3/4 of your health bar with one trap and you can't get a perk to counter that other than the one that disabled it which isn't even offered to every character if you wanna use them effectively. Not to mention his traps bug out time to time also. Plus him being stunned has been broken a lot where he will just not be stunned and instant recover.
All of this is just each character not even the game broadly where each patch breaks something new. Whether it's valve glitch that makes you freak out, infinitely climbing a ladder, getting stuck in a ladder, door slams not working so you just get killed anyways, perks not working properly so they're wasted completely, grandpa stab hitbox being so ridiculously particular that you can mash the fuck out of it and it will still not do it, on top of that constant poor map design where a tool box or health item or whatever is directly next to a gap or crawl space so you pick it up instead of go through and die for it...
I could go on and on and on about how many bugs, glitches, and just overall poor design and choices this game has but what is the cherry on top is that the people who play the other side actually somehow believe the game is still too much in favor of victims when in reality it isn't at all even slightly.
Only bad family players complain about grappling it's actually a stupid easy counter... just feed grandpa. Victims get 2 item slots and they can't progress and stab you and the same time 🤷🏻‍♂️
I save every clip I get to my ps5 where a glitch happens and I basically have wayyyyyyyyy too much evidence of this game being trash. The difference with Danny for family and glitches for victims is you actually can fight back against Danny and at least you know what he is gonna try to do. Victims constantly get screwed by these glitches and it costs them game after game after game.
On a final note yea Danny should be modified and I'm glad they are working on lobbies but the fact it took them this long to even address the lobbies and take action is insane to me. I think if they tweak the stats a bit to where every killer isn't so stupidly insanely faster the game would be slightly better.
I will say though I don't know how they decide matchmaking but it's terrible. I swear it's designed to anger the player. I'm high level almost max and when I play family they give me brand new players who have never played and when I play victim I'm 9 times out of 10 going against a party of players. It got so bad I refuse to play family now without my buddy playing with me because otherwise it would just be repeatedly telling new players to lock doors and teach them to play while I rack up loses. By the way with just one person to communicate with we almost never ever let a single person out. Only time ever is when there is a Danny legit... it's actually why I usually play victim cause it's fairly boring it's so easy when I play family.
I know my opinion is gonna get shit on but I really could care less at this point I've realized this "fan base" can't be helped so I'll just keep speaking my mind and hope maybe eventually someone who matters will see it and make a change 🤷🏻‍♂️

A bit of story, I've been a lurker for a while now. I got into this by my friend who is a fighting game and Ramlethal fan. It began as just a interest in character design and now I have the entire Strive + Xrd OST on my phone and I somehow understand the entire lore. So I have decided to pick up Strive when it will (hopefully) goes on sale when Slayer is released or Summer Sale. This is gonna be my first fighting game that I actually gonna take effort in learning and hopefully it gonna be my gateway into the FGC.
More about me: I'm a PC player exclusively, I do not like consoles with the only exceptions being the DS and 3DS (because Monster Hunter) so I have been playing on keyboard for as long as I can remember. My most played game is League of Legends due to it being free and I have friends and Monster Hunter: World. I am not new to fighting games as I have over 100 hours on Mortal Kombat X. But I did not play any online matches, I just play the story mode and a lot of CPU fights so I have zero experience with player vs player matches. I have anxiety when it comes to online as I played Monster Hunter like a single player game and I have an irrational distrust of strangers.
What do I know already: Despite being a complete noob in this genre, I have been lurking around the FGC for a very long time. Long enough to understand it's lingual and phrases like DP for the Dragon Punch input, Tiger Knee, Rekka, Oki, Cross up, Footsie, Number Notations, Fuzzy guard and more. Basically, I did my research and now is looking to put my knowledge to the testing phase. I don't find motion inputs that hard but DP have given me trouble before in the wake up part.
Who I want to play and my reasonings: 1. Johnny: He's 100% gonna be my main. I love his esthetic and his story of being a pirate/cowboy/swordsman Robin Hood is really cool. Just Lean is the best song and I will not hear anyone out. A showoff with a heart of gold, I like him.

1. Elphelt Valentine: White hair clumsy woman with big booba makes my brain goes unga bunga and my heart swell. At first I was just gonna like her as a character but after I found out she have a Rekka. Yeah, I love her and with her personality being like super adorable makes me really want to pick her up. It's mostly the Rekka but it helps that she's so cute.
   
2. Bedman?: Playing as the Bed is gonna be the closest to play a non humanoid character here. I adore these designs as I prefer monsters, robots and stuff over humans as in league, I play exclusively monsters. I really like it's mechanic of an delay special after your normal special which I see can set up interesting situations. The Circle is an amazing track.
   
3. Leo or May: Charged characters, I tend to avoid them due to their input being super weird for me. But since that I want to take this game semi seriously, I have to learn them either for match up purpose or just for experience. But I do like both, May is cute and being affiliate with Johnny makes her a winner in my eyes and for Leo is just Hellfire, I love Hellfire.
   
4. Axl Low: If Johnny and Elphelt didn't exist, he was gonna be my choice for a main. Sweet cinnamon roll of a character, Axl Low is genuinely one of my favorite characters in terms of lore and personality alone and him being a Zoner will teach me to how to play as or against them. One Vision, that is an awesome super. What is with Japan and British people with time stop abilities? DIO and Axl?
   

Thank you for reading my rambling, I really want to play and hopefully get over my online anxiety with it. If you all have any tips and tricks for a new player such as myself then feel free to comments.

I just need to get this out of my head.
I think the main thing screaming at everyone was the wasted potential of Polin's build up so this rewrite focuses mainly on them, but I've also added some sprinklings of other characters.
I'm not a Regency pro so please feel free to yell at me in the comments if I've suggested things that wouldn't typically be allowed in a period romance of this time!
ETA: Some people have brought up the fair criticism of whether Colin needed to visit any brothels at all. I was attempting to keep as show canon as possible but I totally agree with this and to avoid this post becoming primarily brothel discourse lmao please discount any brothel-related scenes if that's your preference.
POLIN (an episode by episode breakdown):
EPISODE 1

• Part of me would like to have begun the cold open with Colin abroad where we actually see that first time he entered a brothel, his first time with a woman. I think beginning the season with Colin's "backstory" is so much more powerful than opening with Penelope's because we know Pen already; we need to see Colin now. We need to know how he went from swearing off women and being heartbroken by Marina to frequenting brothels. Humanise the situation, make us understand why someone as sweet and as sensitive as Colin -- who wouldn't even kiss Marina -- comes back as the town rake. Show us that he realises that feelings are complicated and it's so much better without them, that he feels free without being bogged down by his past. Fake!rake Colin works so much better when we've seen how vulnerable he initially was.
• Colin's words last season need to have more consequence. Listen, I'm all for groveling Colin, but I don't think he deserves the level of vitriol that people are flinging at him — the show even reinforces this by showing us that Pen's prospects haven't really changed and thus his words didn't have a genuinely negative effect. So show us whispers that Pen is seen as the girl who Colin Bridgerton publicly slighted, that any potential suitors have been even further warded off. Then, this episode is devoted to rehabilitating that friendship. Instead of being only shocked by Pen's new look have him smile; he knows how much she hated her old wardrobe, show us that he knows her and that he's proud of her. Then at the next ball he loudly compliments her on her dress, how this shade of green is even lovelier than the last. He asks her to dance and Pen is like, "Colin, everyone is looking at us, those other girls you were talking to won't like the fact that you're dancing with me," and Colin just goes, "Let them look," and we get a throwback when he says, "We are dancing." It's a cute scene, keeping the romantic chemistry to a minimum; this is a friend making reparations. Have people in the crowd murmur that Pen does in fact look very lovely in her new look, now that she's out of those horrible yellows and oranges, and have Portia hear this, have her begin to realise that for all of her efforts she contributed to Pen's lack of success with suitors. As they dance Colin tells her that he never should have said what he did — Pen is his sister's best friend, he didn't want other people reading into their relationship and butting in. Have him acknowledge for the first time that their friendship blurs the lines of what society deems acceptable and he didn't want to add more fuel to the fire, but he realises that the way he went about it was completely wrong. She is a perfectly eligible maiden and he's so sorry for making her seem anything less.

EPISODE 2:

• Now this is where the pot begins to stir. Keep the first kiss largely as it was but have it come in the first third of the ep. Maybe Pen's first lessons are a disaster and her first attempts at wooing the ton's men go horribly wrong. This just reinforces everything she's ever thought about herself and what everyone else has told her and she thinks that things will never work out, she'll never even be kissed, she'll die without having ever even been kissed and she doesn't want to die without having experienced that and that's when Colin offers tentatively, carefully, to kiss her. He's the one who says it won't mean anything, that he won't expect anything from her. So they kiss and it's basically the same as it was in the show (side note: has anyone's side profile been as gorgeous as Nicola's was in that scene? I was gaping) except Colin goes back in for another as Pen pulls away. She recovers and says "Thank you". In her mind he only went for it for her benefit. Maybe we have more of a focus on Colin's hands, that regency twitch where you know something just happened.
• Now we begin Colin's spiral. Keep the dream sequence following their kiss but instead of just kind of replaying exactly what we just got have it take place during the day, we don't even know that it's a dream sequence — it just seems like one of their lessons, except suddenly it's getting way too flirty and then Penelope asks him to kiss her again, and just as he's going in he wakes up. He doesn't shoot out of bed, it's just odd, he's mainly thrown off and confused. He puts it down to their weird, unexpected kiss and moves on with his day. We continue the lessons: the kiss kind of worked and Pen gradually becomes more and more confident knowing that she has just a bit more experience than other people would've expected from her. Pen is genuinely charming Colin at this point: in the midst of jokes and friendship there are sparks, and the lines between when they're having lessons and when they're not are becoming blurred. Colin continues to visit the brothels at night — he worked up a bit of an appetite for this while he was gone for many months, fine. Keep it. Then we have the hand cut scene, largely the same as the show but just filmed better lmao.
• At some point Violet, while speaking with Lady D or Francesca, notices them laughing together, how Colin's eyes are shining, but she says nothing. Just smiles and carries on.
• Now things really start shifting. The more time he and Pen spend together and he watches her execute his lessons perfectly he starts feeling twinges of jealousy, seeing the jokes she's used on him be used on other people, the time she spends with him lessening as she engages other men. He's lonely so when he's at the brothels he tries to talk to them about his travels, make some jokes, but he's not paying them for conversation and their responses are lacklustre. Penelope's about to talk to a man when something gets caught in her hair from a stray breeze and Colin takes it out for her because he doesn't want her to try and charm a man with a twig in her hair, and then later at night when he's pulling his hands through black hair, blonde hair, none of it feels right. Intersperse it all with more dreams — Colin said in Ep 4 that he was dreaming of her all the time so why did we only get ONE? — that are progressively getting steamier. Not only are they going further but Pen is rejecting other men for him, he's getting all of her attention that he craves. Montage it. Have him wake up morning after morning in a cold sweat because the dreams won't stop. The episode ends with his final straw, where he sleeps with a new girl in the brothel, a redhead this time, but when he looks at her face it's not Penelope and he panics because he'd somehow fooled himself into thinking that it was, and all he can do is stammer out how sorry he is as he empties his entire money bag, "I'm so sorry but I can't," and he stumbles out.

EPISODE 3:

• Only NOW does Debling arrive. Until this point Pen hasn't truly been interested in any of the men she's flirted with and ultimately, regardless of Colin getting jealous, none of them are threats; they're practice. We get those cute moments with Pen and Debling, where she's not just flirting and using her new charms, she's being herself, she doesn't need anything Colin taught her. Debling likes her without all of that.
• This is when Jealous!Colin really rears its head, like this man has already been a sweaty mess since Ep 2 but this is where we really get unhinged, longing Colin. There's no Cressida love triangle, it's just Pen and Debling getting to know each other. Keep the hot air balloon event but play it differently: Pen is standing by herself watching other women swarm Debling, trying to work up the courage to speak to him again, and Colin sees the balloon heading for her. He panics, shouts her name and gets her attention, he starts running, but Debling is closer and saves her. He's the hero. This sends Colin further into spiral mode, watching not only Pen thank Debling but all of the other members of the ton as well. Generally I think it's more interesting if more women in the ton are interested in Debling while Debling's only interested in Penelope.
• At some point Violet asks Colin if he's feeling alright, something is off about him. He brushes her off. Colin is just wretchedly lonely this episode. He doesn't go back to the brothels.
• Later, Pen tells Colin that she heard him scream her name; that's why Debling got to her in time. It's a cute, quiet moment, and Colin asks her what she thinks of Debling. She confesses that she likes him but he's away often (he's disclosed this much earlier to her), but that would mean her freedom, right? Isn't that what she wants?
• Another scene where Debling brushes over Portia and compliments Penelope, showing Portia that Pen never needed her meddling, that Portia helped to create the outcast that Pen became, and punished her for it.
• Keep the funny Featherington sisters knowing absolutely nothing about sex, but have Penelope confide in Colin that she doesn't want to be like that. She loves romance books and she knows there's more, she knows that things happen between a husband and a wife but she doesn't know what. And she remembers what she read from Colin's travel journal and she subtly, carefully, brings up that he's seemingly come back with a wealth of experience in that regard. We get their first genuinely steamy scene outside of Colin's dreams, where Colin tells Pen what to expect — not that much, but enough to get her interested. Think Simon and Daphne where he teaches her about female pleasure (no spoon licking tho, I beg), but this time Colin is telling his friend because she asked and because she's seriously considering Debling and she's clearly nervous. It's an earnest conversation where slowly, inevitably, all they end up thinking about is them doing these things together and that was not the plan and they've both definitely crossed the line now and the episode ends with Colin's hasty departure and their relationship slightly on the rocks because neither of them can believe they just did that.

EP 4:

• We don't get any more of Colin's dreams onscreen but we KNOW what the content of them would have been, we know that she haunted him that night. If you want to take it further have Colin ask the servants to change his bedsheets, make his bath cold instead.
• Debling's proposal will be the same, but here Colin is so bothered by the idea that Debling is going to leave Pen for ages at a time that when Violet mentions what a lovely pair they make and how nice that someone finally appreciated Penelope after all these years, when Violet has known all along how special she is, that Colin bites back, "Is it appreciation that will have him leaving her for years at a time as he's off on his expeditions, keeping her in an empty house all alone while he travels the world?" Even with Violet's surprised expression he continues, "What kind of life is that for her? Doesn't she deserve better?" And Violet finally realises what's been going on, why Colin has been acting so strange.
• This could also be the episode where Eloise finally notices that there are real feelings between them, that for all Colin said about not being the husband Penelope was looking for why is it that they spend all their time together? That he devotes so much of his energy to helping her? Why he's been so jealous and irritable and wretched since Penelope met Debling. That's when Eloise tries to act — she agonises, she does, but finally decides that she can't see him go through with this, that he's on the brink of some insane confession and before that happens he needs to know. She's about to tell him near the end of the episode but he goes after Pen and she misses her chance.
• Meanwhile Penelope hasn't come away from that conversation with Colin unscathed, because she's a romantic at heart, that's what she WANTS. With Debling it's comfortable and pleasant but it's not that. So the proposal is broken but it's on Pen's terms, she says that this isn't the freedom she's looking for. She wants a companion, someone who she can share adventures with, who makes her heart race, who understands and accepts her fully. She could even quote something Colin said to her in that scene (something relatively PG); about becoming one with someone else, like feeling like they're the only two people on earth. She says that she wishes that for both of them, that she knows there's someone out there who this arrangement will work perfectly for, but it's not her. She's still devastated — it is a lord's proposal that she's turning down, after all — but she knows what she wants and she's not settling for less.
• Colin is still an idiot and has no idea that this is happening so he still goes up to her during their dance and breaks them up, completely overwhelmed by all of his feelings. He tries to tell her that this is a mistake. The situation is still mortifying and Pen tells him to leave her alone; she thinks he's inserting himself into the situation, and people will think he has feelings for her if he continues to act this way. She leaves the dance floor, turns back to the comfort she always turns to in moments of stress: she gets into a carriage and furiously pens the next issue of Whistledown, capturing the scandal that had just occurred, and goes straight to the printers. And when she comes out, Colin is standing there. He had followed her all the way and he knows. And that's where we end.

KANTHONY: Did I like seeing Kate and Anthony in marital bliss? Yes. Was I frustrated by all of their scenes turning into makeouts or sex? Also yes. Did I think the half-baked attempt to ship them off after Ep 1 worked well? Not particularly. I genuinely think what would've worked so much better and still accommodates Johnny and Simone's schedules would've been to have them return from their honeymoon in Episode 4. That way they can come back when the shit is actually going down. Have them make their big return at the Queen's ball where they see Colin literally tempting social ruin by interrupting Penelope and Debling's dance and being like Whoa whoa whoa what the actual fuck is going on? followed by Anthony absolutely ripping into his brother for such unhinged behaviour. That way you get Anthony being able to properly lay it out for the audience just how insane of a move that was, which then only strengthens Colin going after Pen anyways. I'm not sure what else they have going on for the rest of the season but assuming they stick around this rewrite also positively impacts—
BENEDICT: Oh, man, I never thought I would audibly groan at the sight of Luke Thompson's beautiful face but by the end of Part 1 there was nothing else for it. Saddling Benedict with yet another season devoted to a single and ultimately meaningless love interest while sticking him in the background of all the other scenes is such a waste of LT. SO. Keep Kanthony overseas and let us see what we only heard in passing: give us Benedict running the estate and whatever else Anthony is usually tasked with, let us see his sense of purpose and the responsibility he's gained, let us see him with Gregory and Hyacinth taking on the oldest brother role; essentially begin orienting him towards becoming the head of his own household. Having Benedict take on a more serious role also gives way for a more rakish, insensible Colin. I also found it extremely odd that it's been established that Benedict and Eloise are each other's confidants, so to have Eloise at her lowest and not get a single scene between her and Benedict where he's like Hey, are you ever going to tell me why Penelope never comes round anymore, why you're miserable and yet are making no attempts to mend this friendship? didn't make much sense. In return, Eloise notices that Benedict is coming into his own — she could compliment him and joke that maybe he has his uses outside of making pretty things, after all. That way once Anthony and Kate return we can watch Benedict relinquish all of his responsibilities and go back to twiddling his thumbs, now wanting more from life and ready for the responsibility of heading a family. Cue Masquerade. Cue Sophie.
And that's it! Sorry that this was very long and rambly. I feel like I'm losing my nerve about this so I'm just going to post this now before I change my mind.
*Obviously this doesn't take into account anything that might happen in Part 2 which rectifies/addresses some of the issues in Part 1*

Part 72 Gene mods (Part 1) (Part 71)
[Support me on Ko-fi so I can get some character commissions done and totally not buy more Gundams]
“Alright, calm down. It's really not that serious.” Though the holographic representation of War Chief Neshkaname, complete with ocean blue eyes and linear facial tattoos on his tan face, looked quite noticeably tired, his overall demeanor seemed fairly positive. “I just got out of a meeting with representatives from the different protesting groups and all of them agree with the general idea of what we're trying to do with our united defense fleet. There's just quite a bit of disagreement about how our Confederacy should approach the questions related to Earth, Mars, and everyone in Sol.”
“What kind of questions are we talking about here?” General Robert Andrews, the now former General of the US Army, was the first to speak up amongst the crowd of military leaders. “Nothing about invading Earth, I hope.”
“Well…” Though Rob was only half serious about his comment concerning Earth, the way the commanding officer of the Nishnabe Militia’s Blue Fleet began his response put a genuinely concerned expression on a few faces from Sol. “It's only a small percent of our population who are calling for war to reclaim land. A few million people at most, none of whom hold any positions of leadership in our military. Luckily, there are far more people calling for boycotts, embargoes, or blockades as opposed to anything direct.”
“War Chief, to many governments on Earth, an embargo, and especially a blockade, would be considered akin to a direct declaration of war.” General Renee Descartes, the former Chief of Defense Staff of France and Second in Command of the European Union's Unified Military, despite the dark bags under her eyes implying she hadn't gotten anywhere near enough sleep before this meeting, retained her rather elegant poise when adding that bit of necessary context. “You see, the economy of Earth is highly reliant on importing raw materials from space. With the climate being as delicate as it is, no one is willing to risk the kinds of planetside resource harvesting necessary to keep the thirteen billion people in the Earth’s Sphere of Influence employed, fed, and happy. More importantly, we are starting to run out of easily accessible mineral deposits in space.”
“Yes, the lunar mines and the near-Earth asteroid colonies still under UN-E control simply aren't producing nearly enough material to meet growing demand.” Admiral Nathaniel Adeoye, who had also given up his position as the Chief of Astral Naval Staff of the African Federation, chimed in with a clearly worried tone in his deep voice. “While I can understand the rage some of your people must feel, especially towards Americans, the many different people of Africa were in no way responsible for the colonization of America. In fact, we were subject to colonialism ourselves.”
“At least y'all still got yahr homelands!” Commandant General Daniel Chasinghorse, the former Commander of the entirety of MarsGov's Void-Marine Corps, didn't mean for his statement directed at Adeoye to sound as vitriolic as it did. However, the idea of him, his Lakota people, and all the displaced Native American Nations who were now mostly living in space or on Mars potentially being included in the Nishnabe’s reasonably negative reaction towards the people of Earth had put him on edge. “Sorry for snappin’ at yah like that, Nate. But the people livin’ on Mars ain't nothin’ done to deserve bein’ restricted by an embargo or blockade. We need all the extra-Solar tech we can get if we're gonna keep our population's health from declining even further. And I’m sure the African Lunar colonies could really use that medical and gravity tech too!”
“Nothing's been decided yet, and most people on Shkegpewen want peace, we just haven't reached a consensus on how that peace will look.” War Chief Msko Pkwenech, the commander of the Nishnabe Militia’s Red Fleet, interjected while making an open gesture with his hands to try to pat down the tension building up in this meeting room. “And if helps at all, we did take quite a few public votes concerning technology sharing for things we consider essential. But Maser probably has quicker access to the results than I would.”
“About ninety percent of respondents voted to immediately authorize and start sending out medical and gravity tech, including a production ship to come out and make things in-system, which is well above the seventy-five percent consensus needed to move forward.” As soon as the Light-born AI holographically representing their consciousness as an androgynous human began to speak in an incredibly soothing tone, the stress levels in the room began to fall. “There are currently a few councils debating the finer details and arranging logistics of what will be sent. However, the specifics of who gets what and when they get it will be negotiated between the respective governments in Sol and the Nishnabe Intergovernmental Council. Our job as the United Human Defense Fleet is not to interfere with diplomacy between nations, just to ensure that diplomacy is handled in a reasonable and non-threatening manner. Now, with that said, the vote to provide essential assistance was just one if a few taken over the last couple weeks. And while that poll was overwhelming and definitive, the ones concerning visas, immigration, galactic trade, and interspecies relations all fell below the consensus threshold for the Confederacy to adopt an official policy. When we say embargoes and blockades, we are purely referring to trade interactions between species, not between humanity and your economic exclusive zone. Once the relevant councils develop updated options for people to vote on, the next vote will be held.”
“An’ how long's all that gonna take?” Commandant Admiral Carol Nez, as the former head of MarsGov’s Astral Intelligence Collective and Councilmember in the Navajo Nation of Mars, was keenly aware of both the pressing urge of many on the red planet to live on a world with a breathable atmosphere and how just long it often took to for Native Nations to build a consensus. “Everaday we got at least a thousand babies born in Martian maternity stations an’ at least thirty percent ‘ave some kinda health issues. The sooner we get y'all's medical tech, the more kids that're gonna grow up to be happy an’ healthy!”
“We are well aware of the negative health implications of trying to raise children in low-gravity.” Msko already had his tablet out and was in the process of sending over the relevant information to his counterparts from Earth and Mars. “Our genetic modification technologies require individualized sequencing but they can be applied before or after birth to correct any serious issues. They can even be used well into adulthood. I got my eye color changed when I became an adult, so we can help anyone who hasn’t already gotten cybernetic replacements for affected body parts. All of our ships still in Sol are actively trying to produce as much of the base materials as they can and are working with doctors from your stations to get everything deployed as quickly as possible.”
“Why don’cha just teach our docs how to do it?” As soon as Carol got the question out, Msko and Nesh shot each other cautious glances before they both looked towards Maser.
“Well, Commandant Admiral Nez…” As soon as the hologram of the AI began to speak, it was clear their words were directed at everyone present from Sol. “To be completely blunt with all of you, we have reason to believe that the moment people from either Mars or Earth got full access to the genetic manipulation technology the Nishnabe utilize, someone would begin conducting experiments to turn humans into living weapons even more dangerous than the cybernetic ones you already produce. The cybernetics sported by many of your civilians would be legally considered military-grade combat modifications, and individuals with those cybernetics would be barred from entering many GCC standard space stations. We know there are doctors within both UN-E and MarsGov already working on projects to modify your species genome to produce what you call super soldiers, which something which is generally highly illegal under GCC laws. In fact, the genetic manipulation done to Sarah and Johnathan McAfree would likely be considered combat adjacent modifications according to GCC standards, and they would also be subject to various limitations due to their enhanced physiology.”
“Hey, now! Spooky an’ ‘er brother ain’t that scary!” Though he had been spending most of this meeting quietly sitting in his corner of the round table and trying to stay out of things he considered to be beyond his expertise, Professor Mikhail T. River felt compelled to say something now that his ex and her brother had been brought up. “Sure, she can bench press me. An’ Johnny can pick up the stove to sweep under it. But that ain't the gnarliest I ever seen! I mean, jus’ look at Comandante Harrison over here!”
/----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While the members of the United Human Defense Fleet Council were in their meeting and discussing the rumors of Nishnabe protests Sarah had also caught wind of, that was far above her paygrade. Despite a tinge of concern fluttering away in the back of the unusually tall and rather athletically built Scotswoman’s mind, she wasn't worried about the things she had no control over. At the moment, she, her rather short and somewhat pudgy mother, and her colossal but cognitively limited brother were relaxing in the stables of the opulent nature area aboard UHDF DS-1 and spending time with the unicorn-like kaehi'xito that Mik had gifted to them. Though the three gingers were each busy with different things most of the day, Donna and Johnny with their Nishnabemwin and remote job training courses while Sarah performed her role as an intelligence analyst, the small family from Glasgow truly cherished this time they got to spend together. And the fact they were bonding with the closest living creatures in the galaxy to unicorns only made this even better for all of them.
“Hey Sarah! There you are!” As soon as Miakorva's voice called out from the entrance to the stable building, Sarah, her family, and the three unicorn-like creatures turned to see the Qui’ztar approaching them with familiar canine at her side. “And look who I found wandering around the ship! Did you know that Mikhail lets her walk around unsupervised?”
“Hiya Mia!” Being the closest to the entrance, Johnny was the first to greet the lanky and seemingly muscular blue woman before he crouched down low and extended a hand towards the Cane Corso. “An’ Micky lets her roam cuz she's a good girlie. Isn't tha’ righ’, Terry?”
“Terry Good dog!” Terry’s soft but deep whine was translated by her collar while she approached the man with her tail vigorously wagging.
“Terry's a trained station guard dog, Mia.” Sarah added while shooting the Qui’ztar intelligence officer a cheeky wink and coy smile. “It's ‘er job to wander a station, ‘r in this case a ship, an’ be on the lookout for trouble. An’ now that she can talk, she's a perfect workin’ animal. But wha’s up? Were yah lookin’ for me?”
“Oh, yes. Yes, I was. But… uh…” Mia paused for a moment as she watched the massive beast of a dog place her paws on Johnny's shoulders and begin licking the man's face as if he had smothered some kind of invisible but quite tasty treat across his skin. “Isn’t there a concern that Terry may… Well… Hurt someone? Her species are non-sapient apex predators with strong hunting instincts, correct?”
“Tha's why she and most other workin’ dogs ‘re so well trained, love.” Donna replied with a giggle, the adorable display of affection between her son and Mik's dog forcing a massive smile across her freckled and slightly wrinkled face. “There's always a bit o’ risk with dogs, especially the biggins like Terry ‘ere. But if these unicorns aren't freakin’ out cuz o’ ‘er, then we don’ gotta be worried.”
“Kaehi'xito didn’t evolve with canine predators, so they likely don't even recognize her as a potential threat.” As Mia watched the beast of a dog lean more of her weight on to Johnny, she half expected the large and well-built man to fall over from the force. However, much to her surprise, the man stopped his energetic scratching on Terry's sides, wrapped his arms around her waist, and effortlessly lifted the gargantuan animal into the air, all the while it continued to lick his face. “But seeing you carry that creature like a baby would be enough to make almost anyone with caniphobia be cautiously curious about these creatures. And they must not be as heavy as they look if you can pick one up so easily.”
“Oh, Terry’s a thickin! At least fifteen stone!” In a motion that seemed in utter opposition to Johnny's comment, the man half-tossed the Cane Corso into the air so that he could reposition his hands to cradle the massive canine as if she were a literal baby. “But she's still a good lil pupper, ain't yah, Terry?”
“Terry, good baby!” Though Terry hadn't started flailing or showing any obvious signs of discomfort, she suddenly turned her head towards Sarah with a longing look in her golden eyes. “Pack-mother cuddle?”
“Yeah, sure, yah big ol’ lunk.”
Though Mia could believe a man as impressively large as Johnny may not have much difficulty in lifting a hundred kilo canine, she was completely flabbergasted by Sarah's ability to simply pull Terry from Johnny's grasp and continue to hold the animal up without even the slightest indication of strain. Not only had she just gotten confirmation that this creature was just as heavy as she thought, Miakorva was now being faced with the fact that the woman she had been cuddling with a night for quite some time was significantly stronger than she had realized. According to all the interspecies education she had received, which may have been slightly biased by the Qui’ztar professor teaching the courses, her own species had the highest ratio of strength to body mass of any Ascended species. And while she was aware that this woman she had formed a relationship with weighed about the same as she did despite being several centimeters shorter, Mia had yet to witness Sarah's capabilities demonstrated in such a casual manner.
“By the Matriarch, Sarah!” The lanky blue woman couldn't help herself as her bioluminescent freckles lit up at the shocking display of strength. “How are you that strong?!?”
“Gene mods.” Though Sarah didn't hesitate in her answer, she did wince slightly as she did so. “Me muscles’re almost twice as dense as the average human's. Tha's actually somethin’ I had to talk to Maser an’ NAN abou’ the other day. ‘Parently tha’ ain't a thing most species do for some reason. Bu’ I'm pre’y sure we talked abou’ tha’ already.”
“You did mention it but… Well… I didn't realize your people's genetic engineering was that sophisticated. But I guess that does confirm a couple of the rumors I've heard that I was going to ask you about.”
“Wha’ rumors?” Donna blurted out with a bit too defensive of a tone as her eyes fell upon her son who had gone back to brushing his vaguely moose-like unicorn. “An’ who's spreadin’ ‘em?”
“Well…” Mia hesitated for a moment, causing the two Scotswomen to shoot her suspicious looks. “I was assisting with the logistical planning with the Nishnabe in charge of the distribution of medicine to people on Earth and Mars, most of which involved genetic modification serums. And when I asked why there was no plan, or even consideration, of passing on the technology so it could be locally produced, the people I was working with told me there were rumors of… Well… My people would call it Qui'kijarto niko'txo, which would roughly translate to an enhanced soldier project.”
“Yahr people tried to make super soldiers, too?” Sarah asked with a laugh that implied a sense of relief.
“No!” The instant denial caused Sarah to cease her laughter and forced a slight frown on her rather pale and freckled face. “As soon as my people began developing genetic engineering almost thirty thousand years ago, our government and scientific community came together to completely outlaw any attempts to enhance our form in a way that would make us even deadlier in combat. Besides that, even after thirty thousand years of research, we have only recently mastered the ability to stabilize our genetics and guard against speciation due to diverse environmental conditions.”
“Yah really tryin to tell us yahr people never tried to improve themselves?” The older Scotswoman chimed in with a clearly doubtful expression. “No one ever tried to give their kids an advantage in life? Super soldiers experiments ain't the only thing we use gene modding for.”
“Well… No… I don’t believe we ever have.” Mia hadn't really put much thought into it, even when she and Sarah had talked about it before. But now she was starting to realize that an attempt to give a child an advantage in life by increasing their physical capabilities could directly translate to turning that child into an ideal soldier. “As far as I know, very few other species have engaged in that form of genetic modification. And the ones who have tried struggled to produce anything truly successful.”
“Gene mods ain't always successful, Mia.” Johnny didn't bother to look away from the unicorn he was brushing as he made the comment lest he see the sadness that suddenly appeared in his mother's eyes. “Bu’ I learned the other day tha’ Nishnabe gene tech is way better than wha’ we got on Earth. Maybe they'll ‘ave some stuff to teach us after they feel we're trustworthy enough to learn it.”

The Great Depression had a significant and lasting impact on society, especially in the Dust Bowl states. Oklahoma suffered the worst and is still suffering from its effects. The stock market crashed in 1929. This was 11 years after the end of WWI when a lot of working age men were killed. My father was 19 years old. Children age 4 and older had to go to work in the fields harvesting and hoeing weeds. My maternal grandmother who was born in 1932 cut broomcorn and picked cotton by hand. The International Harvester for cotton was invented in 1940, but only came into widespread use by 1970. The broomcorn industry died out in 1980. Older boys age 11 and up went to work in sawmills and the trades. Watch the movie Walk the Line. Johnny Cash’s older brother of 14 was almost cut vertically in half when he slipped and was cut through the sternum by a large saw blade. Can you imagine being that young and handling dangerous machinery with no safety equipment? Safety equipment didn’t exist back then and neither did child labor laws. Those old Boomer children worked just as hard as adults to help feed their families. They were punished for playing. They had to suck it up and endure extreme hardship just to eat and they ate very little. Everyone was starving and filthy. There was as no indoor plumbing, no electricity and no air conditioning. I watched my grandmother work from sun up to exhaustion and she slept in her clothes. When she died, her bra strap hooks were rusted from sweat because she never removed it, meaning she hadn’t bathed in decades. She was 4-8” and wore a child size medium. She was conditioned to hard work and starvation. She and her family including my mother never overcame the effects of the Depression. She was functionally illiterate despite graduating high school in 1948.
Education stopped at third-fourth grade for the average child because parents were extremely poor and couldn’t afford to pay for schooling. School was different then. Teachers lived in a teacherage provided by the school district and earned a living stipend from the state to teach grades 1-4 how to read, write, sign their names, cipher, count money and read a watch. That was the extent of free education. Advanced learning after 4rth grade was taught by subscription very similar to private tutoring. Grades 5-7 were called grade school. Grades 7-12 were called high school. They didn’t have Junior High.
In 1935, the Second New Deal created the Works Progress / Projects Administration (WPA) to help people recover from the Depression. A lot of new schools were built during this period. Schools were funded with a combination of state aid and a tax levy called a mill collected from every resident in a school district. When Boomers say they shouldn’t have to pay a school tax because they don’t have children in school, this is what they’re referring to. They had the right to vote against a tax levy. These days, we call them temporary sales tax increases to fund things like new gym equipment. Everyone inside the school district votes on the increase and everyone inside and outside the district has to pay the sales tax if they shop at a store in the district. These no-voters will shop outside the district if the tax increase passes.
Fast forward to WWII (1939-1945) and the Korean War (1950-1953) and we see a significant decrease in school attendance that results in the closure of many rural schools. Many of this second generation of Boomers grew up in boarding schools and orphanages because their mothers couldn’t afford to feed them. This period resulted in a high population of youth being institutionalized. One of my grandmother’s sisters was raped by her uncle at age 14 and was sent to an asylum for the mentally ill. My mother (born 1952) and her sisters were taken by DHS (called CPS today) and sent to a girl’s state school after their father died of cirrhosis at the age of 42. He was a bootlegger who literally drank himself to death. Prohibition (1920-1933) was another result of the Depression. It lasted until 1952 in Oklahoma. Forced sterilization in mental institutions was outlawed in 1951 for the sake of medical study. The practice began in 1931 because the state believed that mental illness/retardation was genetic and caused by incest/inbreeding. It runs in my mother’s family so I can confirm the state was right. Mutations in the brain can be passed from mother to child.
The third generation of Boomers was born during the Vietnam War (1955-1975). I was born in 1973, so I’m technically Gen X with Boomer influences but not to the point that I’m a raging psycho. I consider those born in the 60s to be the third Boomer generation. My town lost its high school in 1968 and stopped at the eighth grade. All those who graduated from the 60s-1980 are the anti education gatekeepers of the workforce that I’m personally struggling with. These are the people who hate anyone with an education level above theirs. They’re offended by education unless you’re a doctor or a lawyer and they can use you. They are also anti-technology and refuse to use it. They are bullies who are socially enmeshed and always in your business. This generation of women married older men because men their age were fighting in a war. Or, they married wealthy men. Those women didn’t have to work and became bored housewives. I blame daytime soap operas for teaching these idiots their horrible social skills. They stayed home almost 24/7 except for when they were at the hair salon or shopping. They wore a lot of makeup too and nail polish contained formaldehyde. The amount of lead and toxic chemicals they were exposed to was very high. My mother was in this category from 1970-1980 when she divorced my father. Men who came home from the war were addicted to heroin and may have turned to cocaine, crack or meth. Many ended up homeless or hooked up with women for the welfare benefits. They were insanely abusive. Very few were able to adjust. Women who did not marry well, had to work cash jobs to support themselves and they might have qualified for USDA commodities and food stamps under Johnson’s War on Poverty (1964). We didn’t have welfare reform until 1996. My mother became an alcoholic and was addicted to amphetamines sold as diet pills in the 80s. We had pure meth from 1980 that my stepdad was addicted to and an explosion of brown meth from 1994 to the present. Almost this entire generation and my own Gen X either experimented or became addicted to meth. It affected Millennials too.
Child prostitution as a means of survival and CSA were common during the Depression because there was no law against it and it’s something society has difficulty grappling with. Oklahoma passed its first anti-child molestation law in 1945 after the end of WWII. I remember those old Boomer women saying that talk about sex was vulgar and those matters weren’t discussed. It was swept under the rug until 1990 when teens finally began to speak out. We had an explosion of violent rape and domestic violence in the 90s by Boomers and chauvinists who couldn’t bear to give up their right to sex on demand and beating women.
We got the Department of Education and mandatory attendance in 1980 so Gen X was the first generation to have a well rounded education since 1929. All the generations that came before us are jealous because we also got child labor laws and the statutory rape law. We’re the first generation that didn’t have to endure backbreaking work as children. We got easy jobs like paper routes, babysitting and mowing. As teenagers, farm kids hauled hay but that’s about as strenuous as it got. Many Gen Xers got pregnant young and had to drop out of school or couldn’t go to college. They had to get married and raise a family. I’m struggling with this portion of my generation being jealous as well.
I think Gen Z is the best generation because they are so far removed from the absolute hell that previous generations went through. They have the best education, the best social skills and are the most well adjusted of all the generations that came before them. Gen X just needs to teach ya’ll life skills and survival skills that you can hand down to Gen Alpha.

Casting Director Dianne Young is a guest host.

• Pete Ferriero is sad that the Mets season is over.
• Jeffrey White produced the first 6 episodes.
• Paul Waigner then came in after that.
• Dianne Young was Rosin’s 2nd hire.
• She came from Growing Pains.
• Joanna Ray casted the initial cast.
• Joanna Ray left to go do Twin Peaks.
• Rosin says the first 6 episodes of Twin Peaks was great. They didn’t know how to end it after that.
• By the end of season 1 of Beverly Hills, 90210, the ratings were better than that of Twin Peaks.
• They love the Pacific Northwest shots in Twin Peaks.
• Young had known most of the cast of this show before, except for Ian Ziering and Gabrielle Carteris.
• Young: Tori Spelling worked hard at being an actress.
• Young thinks Bob (Robert) Harbin recommended her to Rosin.
• They needed to replace the father on this show.
• When Rosin started talking to Young about the character of Dylan, she knew exactly who they should cast: Luke Perry.
• Rosin had heard 12 others audition for Dylan. Luke Perry was the first one he thought could not only be cast, but could elevate the show.
• Young had been working on a pilot for Paramount. Another casting director had recommended Perry. When another casting director recommends someone, then one takes notice. Perry came in to read for the part. He said himself to Young that he wasn’t right for the part. She agreed, and told him she would remember him for something else.
• Kurt Geiger also read for Dylan.
• Perry was overwhelmingly Rosin and Young’s choice for Dylan.
• Others that read for Dylan: Matt LeBlanc, Trevor Edmond, Sean Patrick Flannery, David Gray, Carl Evans, Keith Pugan.
• Trevor Edmond would go on to play Evan Potter.
• Carl Evans would play Jonathan Casten in season 6.
• If they liked someone during their audition, they would write OTW by their name – Onto Wardrobe.
• Perry was nervous for his FOX audition.
• The network was lukewarm on him. Aaron Spelling liked him, and had their own production company pay for him.

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• Phases during the audition process: 1) Casting director sends out breakdown for a role.

2) Agents and managers submit actors.
3) Casting director goes through the actors. Well known actors go straight to producers.
4) Casting sessions are set up.
5) Producers are then present for callbacks. They look to make sure they’re right for the role, and can have consistent performances.
6) Another callback, this time with the production company.
7) Another callback, this time for the network. Bob Harbin and Wendy Matthews were in charge for FOX.

• Young would constantly talk with Tony Shepherd throughout this process.
• Early in the series, they would have appointments for actors to come in, and they wouldn’t show up. 40% of them would not show up.
• Young would have to tell the producers, “they’re not here, let me find out what’s going on”, while sweating bullets.
• Aaron Spelling built a really beautiful casting room.
• Darren Starr would be there.
• David Stenn (writeproducers) would also be involved.
• Because they were a bottom feeder, they worked with what they had.
• Young had gotten a quote from Luke Perry’s agent and manager, about his salary. However, quotes are not always accurate, so she has to verify the quote.
• The quote was actually lower than what she had first heard.
• The production company, not FOX, paid for Perry’s contract. Usually FOX pays for the contracts.

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• Luke Perry gave Young a Christmas present. It was a magnifying glass, and a horseshoe. The magnifying glass, was to help Young look for people like him.
• He also signed a poster of “8 seconds” for her.

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James Eckhouse interview:
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• Lyman Ward was initially cast as Jim Walsh.
• Carol Potter read with James Eckhouse in front of Aaron Spelling.
• Eckhouse didn’t think he was going to get the part. No way, he thought.
• After Eckhouse left, Aaron Spelling said “there’s something about that Eckhosue.”
• Potter said “Yeah, he’s Jewish.”
• Barry Diller was the head of FOX. He almost always recast someone. For example, the original lead of 21 Jump Street was not Johnny Depp. Depp was recast into that role.
• So, the same thing happened with Beverly Hills, 90210. Ward was recast with Eckhouse.
• Eckhouse looked like someone who would have been against the Vietnam War. They would not have done such a plot, in season 3, if Lyman Ward were Jim Walsh. He didn’t have that same look.
• Rosin had seen Eckhouse on TV, on 30 Something.
• Eckhouse had another audition on the same day as Beverly Hills, 90210. He had a snooty attitude about Beverly Hills, 90210. He didn’t think he was going to do that show. He didn’t even know why he was there.
• His wife, said to get his ass to the Beverly Hills, 90210 audition.
• His other audition was afterwards.
• He doesn’t remember what the other audition was for.
• Eckhouse went straight to the Producers’ audition. He didn’t have to do a round before.
• Young had really liked Eckhouse as a person, as well as his credits. She also liked how “easy” he was. She was comfortable with him. That’s an important quality for her.
• Eckhouse teaches acting now.
• Eckhouse tells a story of how he went to New York to audition for a movie. He would prepare for his scenes. When he’d get there, he’s ask if they wanted him to read for him. They’d say no, they just wanted to get a feel for how he was as a person. So he would get cast, just based off of his personality, at a certain point. They would already know his credits and know he could act.

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• Young auditioned Ben Affleck and Matt Damon. Affleck came in a few times. Eventually, he stopped.
• Damon would keep coming back, every single time. Young told Damon she’s sorry to keep dragging him in, only to tell him they went with somebody else. Damon told her never worry about him not coming in. He’s always going to come in.
• Eckhouse says there’s one show where he went in 17 times to audition. He’s not going to name the show. He eventually got a part on his 17th audition.
• Eckhouse did not think he did a good audition for Beverly Hills, 90210. It wasn’t his finest hour. He didn’t think he’d get called back.
• He did better during the callback.
• When Eckhouse went to the network audition, he was intimidated by another actor who looked Christian and Scottish.
• Then there was someone else who had tall, dark hair.
• Ken Campbell was also in the audition.
• Eckhouse and Luke Perry were in the bathroom together. Perry almost threw up, from the nerves.
• That’s where Perry and Eckhouse met for the first time, in the bathroom. They loved each other right away.
• Eckhouse really thought Campbell was going to get the part.
• When Eckhouse came back for the network audition, Eckhouse was broke and poor, with two kids. He called his agent. Eckhouse told the agent he didn’t do that well. The agent went to find out what happened. The agent then called Eckhouse back and said, “you were right, you did suck. But you got the part.”
• Rosin said Eckhouse’ previous credits were a huge positive factor.
• Eckhouse was the 2nd highest paid actor during most of the Rosin era.
• During that same network audition, Rosin was confused about something himself. He didn’t know if he worked for Aaron Spelling or someone else. Rosin got confirmation that it was Aaron Spelling.
• Aaron Spelling was always nice to Young.
• When Young’s grandmother passed away, Spelling said how sorry he was, and gave her a big hug.
• When Eckhouse was a director and cast people on another show, it was terrifying. If he said “so and so was pretty good”, someone else in the room would say that person was terrible.
• If Eckhouse saw someone didn’t give their best audition, he’d ask them to do another take, because he could tell they were nervous.
• People from the network would tell Eckhouse, “how dare you waste my time like that. You knew we weren’t going to cast them.”
• Eckhouse would think “give me a break, I just wanted to give them a chance.”
• Eckhouse liked working with the directors on this show, Beverly Hills, 90210. He liked observing them.
• When it was Eckhouse’s first time directing, certain cast members were late. Eckhouse kept looking at his watch. DP Rick Gunter came over and said “let me see your watch”. Eckhouse gave him his watch. Gunter said you’ll get it back at the end of the episode. “That’s not your job.” Let the AD take care of that. You do your job.

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• Leslie Bega (Marianne) reminded Rosin of girls from his high school. Anti materialistic.
• He was surprised the company didn’t try to bring her back.
• Young says she was terrific in the pilot.
• Young would always meet anyone agents and managers recommended her to.
• Young: You can also find good young actors in local theater. The tiniest theater in San Fernando Valley will still have someone that Young would want to bring in.
• Rosin agrees with Young about local theater.
• For the character of Nat, Young brought in Frank Gorshin. Joe E. Tata was a friend of Tony Shepherd’s. So that’s how Tata was brought in. Young says their auditions were similar but different.
• In a previous podcast, Rosin had said that Gorshin had an arrogant vibe. He had played The Riddler on Batman.
• Rosin says Joe E. Tata brought in warmth. Whereas Gorshin played it as someone who didn’t want to be there, but would offer sage advice.
• Rosin says Joe E. Tata was introduced to him as a friend of E. Duke Vincent’s.
• The Spelling company paid for overages with Luke Perry’s contract.
• E. Duke Vincent told Rosin that anytime the network asked someone to change something, ask them who is paying for it.
• Rosin says Beverly Hills, 90210 had the lowest license fee in all of network television.
• They haven’t been able to find Lisa Dean Ryan, who played Bonnie on “The Gentle Art Of Listening”.
• Young says maybe she’s moved on to other interests.
• Rosin says Lisa Dean Ryan, and Noelle Parker, had a range of talent.
• Young had hired Ann Gillespie elsewhere before Beverly Hills, 90210.
• Young liked Tico Wells right away. Her advice to him for the next callback was “don’t do too much”.
• Young met Luisa Leschin (Anna Rodriguez) earlier.
• Rosin used to teach an extension class at UCLA. He used to use the pilot for Hill Street Blues as an example. He would even bring in Bob Butler to come in and watch the episode with the class. The pilot had changed his life. But now, he says the pilot does not hold up. It’s too racist and sexist.
• Beverly Hills was run by the nannies and housekeepers. So Rosin wanted to have a maid character, to represent that. And show the diversity of Los Angeles.
• Aaron Spelling did not like the elitism that was shown in the culture of Beverly Hills. So he asked for her character to be removed.
• Young did hear the criticism about people of color not being on the show. Young said it was disappointing to hear, because she did try to bring in different people.
• There was an author that thought Mark Damon Espinoza didn’t have a big enough role. That author went on FOX News to talk about it. Young had that author meet with producer Paul Waigner. Things did not get resolved, and that author remained angry.
• Rosin repeats what he said earlier, about the show having the lowest license fee in television. They didn’t have the budget for new cast members. That’s why they kept having focused episodes about race like “One On One” or “East Side Story”.
• They were eventually able to cast Denise Dowse and Henry Pickens in recurring roles.
• They made sure the extras reflected the racial diversity of Los Angeles.
• Rosin repeats what he said on previous episodes, that he won an Imagen Award for East Side Story. That’s an award that celebrates Latino actors and their positive portrayal.
• Young: Denise Dowse was a delight to sit and talk to. She’s likable.
• There’s a story about Denise Dowse on Seinfeld, but Young says she’s not going to share that story.
• Ok, she ended up telling the story. Young gave Dowse a message to give to Jerry Seinfeld, during the time Seinfeld was working on Seinfeld. Dowse gave Jerry Seinfeld the message, and he doubled over in laughter.
• Kristin Dattilo was on “One Man And A Baby”. She also read for Brenda Walsh.
• Here’s the actors that read for either of Kelly, Brenda, or Andrea: Kirstin Dattilo (Melissa in this series), Robin Lively, Tamara Glen, Kelly Williams, Sarah Buxton, Patricia Arquette, Brooke Mills, Julie Condra, Jaycee Brownlee, Heather McAdam (Surf Betty / Sarah on this series), Cheryl Pollock, Sydney Penny, Heather Grimes, Portia Dawson, Kendra Booth, Patricia Jennings, Megan Ward, Lisa Wilcox, Nicole Egbert, Tiffani Amber-Thiessen, Lisa Ann Capps, Deborah Levin, Jennifer Guthrie, Juliet Lewis, Tiffany (the mononymous singer), Karla Montana, Tracey Needham, Tracy Wells, Rebecca Cross, Kristy Swanson.
• Pete Ferriero can’t find Michelle Abrahms (Amanda Peyser).
• Julie McCulloh (Trina on “Slumber Party”) used to be on Growing Pains. She was removed from Growing Pains because she was in Playboy, and Kirk Cameron didn’t like that.
• Young was on Growing Pains at that time.
• “Slumber Party” is Rosin’s favorite episode among ones he didn’t work on.
• Rosin bought Playboy because of the interviews with Huey Newton and Tom Hayden. Those guys were not going to be on the LA Times.
• Ferriero says his first Playboy was the one with Julie McCulloh, because of her.
• Rosin likes Joshua Karton (Driver’s Ed instructor). He was one of Rosin’s friends.
• Aaron Spelling did not like that character.
• Jessica Klein’s first episode was “April Is The Cruelest Month”, the episode with Matthew Perry. Rosin says maybe Shira Wasserman (Klein’s daughter) will help do a podcast for that episode.
• Young knew Matthew Perry from before. It was a great reading.
• Michael Cudlitz (Tony Miller, later in the series) also read for that same part as Matthew Perry. Cudlitz did a great job too.
• Rosin liked how Matthew Perry was a youth champion Canadian tennis player. Rosin liked casting people that could play the sport. So he also liked Tico Wells from One On One.
• Ian Ziering and Jason Priestley could also really play basketball.
• Years later, Rosin saw Matthew Perry playing tennis at Beverly Hills High School. Rosin was too shy to go up to him and say “remember when you did my episode”. Rosin regrets that shyness now.
• Young had also worked with Matt LeBlanc elsewhere, on Just The 10 Of Us.
• Young had hired Jennifer Anniston on a pilot before.
• Young also cast Marcy Kaplan (Lydia Leeds).
• Melissa Rivers is in “Fame Is Where You Find It”.
• Young had tried to get Tori Spelling cast before. It was for another 1 hour show. The producer said she was terrific but she doesn’t need the job. Young said Tori Spelling shouldn’t be penalized for who her father is. She’s trying to build a resume.
• Young has said she’s always tried to give people who are 2nd generation people in the entertainment industry, a fair chance.
• Melissa Rivers is another example of this.
• Carrie Hamilton from the “Stand And Deliver” episode is another example.

Lobby dodging will continue, the 3 mins will just slow it and cause more dcs in game. We should kill it at the root, let’s talk about the root causes, seeing a victim they don’t like, bad grandpa perks/refusing to remove yours, bad teammate characters, noobs on team, bad map or no mic.
Victims: seeing a Danny, or a lineup of a squad will make them quit, what we could do I hide the victims all the way until someone spots them then their character is known to the family. We can do the same thing with victims and family. Make it a mystery.
Bad grandpa perks: we all hate it when we have EA and some random is refusing to take off windom on gas station, what we could do is 1. let family vote for which order they go in 2. A tier system, all perks are active at grandpa one but offer less of their ability, grandpa level 2 they are stronger and grandpa level 3 there are what they are rn. Now the question of well EA can’t have tiers or EA will always go first, I think it would be fair to just remove the basement doors from it as a nerf.
Bad character: we all know sissy is just weak, she simply can’t keep up with the OG 3 or Johnny. Nancy on the other just needs more perks doesn’t even need to be new perks just some like serrated, her trap also takes way to long to set up and most of the time a good victim is out of basement before you are done.
Noobs on team: we all hate to see the level 0 on our team, let’s be real nobody wants to carry him. As a victim he’ll just die in a swing or two and as a family he’ll do almost no damage. We need a tutorial to teach the basics. Perks to be less grindy to level up or offer a kit like in COD where you get a ok gun and perks until you level up and can make your own build.
Bad map, nothing you can really do here except balance a few spawns such as gas station fuse on shed. Could maybe add new spawns (Idk how that’ll actually play out).
No mics: don’t you love it talking to yourself? It’s great giving out the best calls in human history for nobody to be listening. What we could do is encourage people to use their mics. Proximity chat between family and victims. Yes there will be toxic people as there is already but over time it will sort itself out. Overall hearing people in game will make others want to talk. Or we can offer a ping system like d pad up puts a marker, d pad down says over here, etc…
From a random family main, these are just simply my thoughts on the situation. I want lobby dodging to end but I see that a penalty will just lead to more dcs in game. Let me know what you think pls be civil and let’s have a conversation.

Challa sawyer description: She’s the youngest of the family who loves to talk to the the victims while Mocking them, she plays around with her victims and slowly hurts them mentally and physically. as she learned from Hitchhiker who leaned from the best, she knows her way around Knives. Her favorite victim is Sonny as she was able to talk to him about her Fantasies and Desires of Murdering.
•As the youngest she’s fast and has lots of energy to spare into this situation, she can go under Crawl spaces pretty quickly but can’t fit through Gaps that well.
•While in a Grapple she hangs onto the victims legs tightly Biting and and Sticking her nails deep into their skin to hold tight.
•If she loses, the victims shake their legs dropping her onto the ground as she gets stunned from the fall
•If she wins, he will make them fall over, and she gets on top of the victim as she stabs their face repeatedly for a few seconds.
•Base Savagery is 15
•Base Harvesting 25
•Base Endurance 30
•family Focus is 5 percent better automatically and while on She can see the Outline of a victim in a radius of 15 feet, even through walls and bushes. (In Her ability skill tree the radius can be increased)
•Toy teddy is her beloved Stuffed Animal, she uses it to creep and spy, she can place it down and any victim in a radius of 10 feet will be highlighted, she even gets a notification To alert her (Highlighting can be acquired in the middle of her ability tree in level 2)
•she can open and close Crawl Spaces like doors easily and quickly to trap unsuspecting victim, with her Killer aura being pretty small compared to the other family members, so she can able to sneak up.
•Voice lines while in chase “Your my favorite weird cackling” “You said you wouldn’t Leave” “I’ll convince them to keep you… I promise” “If keep running heavy breathing I’ll have to hurt you” “We can be friends stop running” “I’ll tell my brother on you” “Nan nan would never let you leave” “Grandpa Crocodile tears Please help us out” “Brother help me heavy panting Pretty please” “You made me hurt you”
•Voice lines While in a grapple “YOU can’t hurt me” “Your not my friend” “Nan Nan was right about you” “I promise it won’t hurt” “Stop it hurts” “Stop kicking” “You made me screams do it”
•Voice lines when they leave “Please don’t tell on me” “No sobbing I’ll be your friends I promise” “My brother he’ll get you back” “How dare you” “Nan Nan wont like this” “Pretty please some back” “pure scream”
•Voice lines when she sees cook “You know best” “Is Nan Nan mad with me?” “Don’t worry we’ll get them” “This is so much fun” “I’ll find them for you I promise” “My teddy will find them”
•Voice lines when she sees hitchhiker “Place your trapa for me” “Your more skinny then me” “Can you show me your pictures pretty please?” “Can I try your camera?” “I love headcheese” “Can you help me out a bit”
•Voice lines when she sees leatherface “mocking his grunts” “Does it hurt?” “Stab them with it” “Little harsh?” “Shouldn’t you be helping!?” “Okeyy brother I know you know” “Breakthrough the doors” “Can I touch?”
•Voice lines when see sees Nancy “Nan Nan!” “Can I keep one?” “Even dead would be fine” “Why can’t I be in charge” “I promise Nan Nan I wont let them leave” “Don’t hit me again” “sobbing I’m doing my best” “I like the new dress Nan Nan” “Does Johnny like to play?”
•voice lines when she sees sissy “Sis can you teach me?” “Can I see it?” “Is poison fun?” “Can I lick it” “Men are dumb” “Can I ask you something?” “I love keeping eyes in my secret box” “I can show you” “I like one but nan nan wont let me keep him” “He’s so pretty can you tell Nam Nan that I can keep him? I really want to be his friend”
•voice lines when she sees Johnny “So many scars” “How do you do it?” “So can I show you something?” “Did Nan Nan ever hit you?” “I’m sorry I’m always asking questions” “Why did Nan Nan let you keep one?” “Please tell her to let me” “do you like to play?” “I’ll help you find them” “Can I test your knife?” “Can you help me convince her?”
•her looks She’s small and slender with a Grey dull dress she wears, with a huge birthmark in her nose that sticks out, blond hair with blood stains almost permanently dried in her hair. She’s 5, 3 in hight. Her shoes have sharp spikes Sticking out from the front.
•she has two kill animations Topic toes, is her first animation where she kicks the victim legs legs making them fall over, she proceeds to kick their necks once making them bleed, she leans close to their face and pats their foreheads as she stabs their chest.
Helping out, She Jumps onto the victims back and sticks onto them, with her hand she shoves the knife into their neck, the victim falls into the ground with her, with her saying “I’m so sorry for this” as she drops a red rose on their back.
(Took so long to type this 😭)

Challa sawyer description: She’s the youngest of the family who loves to talk to the the victims while Mocking them, she plays around with her victims and slowly hurts them mentally and physically. as she learned from Hitchhiker who leaned from the best, she knows her way around Knives. Her favorite victim is Sonny as she was able to talk to him about her Fantasies and Desires of Murdering.
•As the youngest she’s fast and has lots of energy to spare into this situation, she can go under Crawl spaces pretty quickly but can’t fit through Gaps that well.
•While in a Grapple she hangs onto the victims legs tightly Biting and and Sticking her nails deep into their skin to hold tight.
•If she loses, the victims shake their legs dropping her onto the ground as she gets stunned from the fall
•If she wins, he will make them fall over, and she gets on top of the victim as she stabs their face repeatedly for a few seconds.
•Base Savagery is 15
•Base Harvesting 25
•Base Endurance 30
•family Focus is 5 percent better automatically and while on She can see the Outline of a victim in a radius of 15 feet, even through walls and bushes. (In Her ability skill tree the radius can be increased)
•Toy teddy is her beloved Stuffed Animal, she uses it to creep and spy, she can place it down and any victim in a radius of 10 feet will be highlighted, she even gets a notification To alert her (Highlighting can be acquired in the middle of her ability tree in level 2)
•she can open and close Crawl Spaces like doors easily and quickly to trap unsuspecting victim, with her Killer aura being pretty small compared to the other family members, so she can able to sneak up.
•Voice lines while in chase “Your my favorite weird cackling” “You said you wouldn’t Leave” “I’ll convince them to keep you… I promise” “If keep running heavy breathing I’ll have to hurt you” “We can be friends stop running” “I’ll tell my brother on you” “Nan nan would never let you leave” “Grandpa Crocodile tears Please help us out” “Brother help me heavy panting Pretty please” “You made me hurt you”
•Voice lines While in a grapple “YOU can’t hurt me” “Your not my friend” “Nan Nan was right about you” “I promise it won’t hurt” “Stop it hurts” “Stop kicking” “You made me screams do it”
•Voice lines when they leave “Please don’t tell on me” “No sobbing I’ll be your friends I promise” “My brother he’ll get you back” “How dare you” “Nan Nan wont like this” “Pretty please some back” “pure scream”
•Voice lines when she sees cook “You know best” “Is Nan Nan mad with me?” “Don’t worry we’ll get them” “This is so much fun” “I’ll find them for you I promise” “My teddy will find them”
•Voice lines when she sees hitchhiker “Place your trapa for me” “Your more skinny then me” “Can you show me your pictures pretty please?” “Can I try your camera?” “I love headcheese” “Can you help me out a bit”
•Voice lines when she sees leatherface “mocking his grunts” “Does it hurt?” “Stab them with it” “Little harsh?” “Shouldn’t you be helping!?” “Okeyy brother I know you know” “Breakthrough the doors” “Can I touch?”
•Voice lines when see sees Nancy “Nan Nan!” “Can I keep one?” “Even dead would be fine” “Why can’t I be in charge” “I promise Nan Nan I wont let them leave” “Don’t hit me again” “sobbing I’m doing my best” “I like the new dress Nan Nan” “Does Johnny like to play?”
•voice lines when she sees sissy “Sis can you teach me?” “Can I see it?” “Is poison fun?” “Can I lick it” “Men are dumb” “Can I ask you something?” “I love keeping eyes in my secret box” “I can show you” “I like one but nan nan wont let me keep him” “He’s so pretty can you tell Nam Nan that I can keep him? I really want to be his friend”
•voice lines when she sees Johnny “So many scars” “How do you do it?” “So can I show you something?” “Did Nan Nan ever hit you?” “I’m sorry I’m always asking questions” “Why did Nan Nan let you keep one?” “Please tell her to let me” “do you like to play?” “I’ll help you find them” “Can I test your knife?” “Can you help me convince her?”
•her looks She’s small and slender with a Grey dull dress she wears, with a huge birthmark in her nose that sticks out, blond hair with blood stains almost permanently dried in her hair. She’s 5, 3 in hight. Her shoes have sharp spikes Sticking out from the front.
•she has two kill animations Topic toes, is her first animation where she kicks the victim legs legs making them fall over, she proceeds to kick their necks once making them bleed, she leans close to their face and pats their foreheads as she stabs their chest.
Helping out, She Jumps onto the victims back and sticks onto them, with her hand she shoves the knife into their neck, the victim falls into the ground with her, with her saying “I’m so sorry for this” as she drops a red rose on their back.
(Took so long to type this 😭) Contact me GUN!

In grade school in the City, before my bros and I went to live with Gram and Gramp, we had for a while a young female college student working as a teaching assistant as part of the requirements toward her own teaching degree.
And it came to pass that she suggested to our teacher, who approved it, a “Music Appreciation Day.” Each student could bring a favorite vinyl record, 45 single or LP, a song of their choosing to be played on a portable turntable for the edification of the class as a whole. With discussion of it afterward.
Now, Dad had some good music. The first albums I remember listening to at home were “Ring Of Fire” by Johnny Cash, “Okie From Muskogee” by Merle Haggard, and an album of duets by Hank and Audrey Williams. Hank Sr., of course. As a favorite Corporal of mine would later remark: “Hank Junior?! I don’t listen to that hippy shit.”
His words, not mine, no disrespect to Bosephus.
Corporal “The Reverend” was a defrocked seminarian, so the story went. But “defrocked” probably wasn’t accurate. He’d left under a cloud before he was actually ordained. Whether on his own initiative or it having been “suggested” he would never say. As I got to know him, though, the latter, most likely. Clergy material he wasn’t by a long stretch. A lanky Louisiana swamp rat, he’d worked off-shore rigs for a while before finding his calling in the Marine Corps. He preferred Hank Sr. He was a traditionalist.
But for show and tell, I had something other in mind than more common fare. There was also a country comedy album of the more mildly racy sort that I was also fond of.
Things had been going quite well; “Music Appreciation Day” a great success. And at last it was my turn. I presented my album and suggested Track Three:
Our young student teacher seemed puzzled, at first. This wasn’t music:
“Cal, you know what I heard on my way in here?”
“What’s ’at, Jim-Bob?”
“I heard a boy and girl playin’ checkers in the back seat of a car in the parkin’ lot.”
“Checkers, you say?”
Looking around, I could see that Cal wasn’t the only one who was confused. And Miss Wilson was, as well……Wait for it.
“Yessir! I heard her tell ‘im: “Another move like that last one, and I’m gonna crown you!” Let it be known; “crown” was euphemistic at the time for hitting someone over the head with a preferably heavy hard object, as well as referring to the checkers term of making a King.
Haha! Most of my fellow students still looked somewhat confused, but some got it, and seemed to enjoy it as much as I did, if the guffaws of laughter were any indication. I Knew it’d be well-received!
I glanced toward young Miss Wilson, to see a look of horrified dawning comprehension upon her face. Ah, well - can’t please Everybody.
“And I’m tellin’ you , Cal; them new foreign compact cars are a Menace! One of ‘em knocked me down as I was crossin’ the street the other day.”
“That’s bad.”
“You’re tellin’ Me! Whilst I was layin’ there, the damn thing ran up inside the front of my left pants leg! And it’s a good thing it didn’t make a left turn! My - “
It was at that point that young Miss Wilson, with a small shriek, rushed to the record player and snatched the playing arm off of the vinyl. I was disappointed - it was just at the Good part.
There was no discussion period afterward. I was taken to go see the Principal again, as I recall. This was in the sixties, of course, so certain methods of correction were still then in play. That person employed a wooden paddle made for a specific purpose. It was 4 or 5 inches in uniform width, perhaps half an inch thick, and about 18 inches long on the business end. With a handle to grip, of course. We were acquainted, unfortunately.
It was a public school, not a private Catholic one, and so there were no Sisters to do the honors. Just the Principal. But that bi…..Lady was a little heavy-handed, in my own personal opinion. Or maybe she reserved that for repeat guests.
I regretted nothing, however, and didn’t see why everyone was so upset. We’d been Told we could choose whatever we wanted.

Our origins: One of our fearless leaders u/AliceinWonder created this subreddit (AshaeScumdara) that has now collected us to critically examine a piece of the Scamfluencer puzzle: “Ashae Sundara” / whose non-cult name is Carly Morgan Gross. We’ve been told we’re a relatively niche sub, and we agree. We tend to focus on a particular network of coaches as a way to strategically attack the pyramid-scheme. Some of our fav exposed coaches (who coach coaches to coach coaches … to coach) are listed below to help you trace the wild sisterhood of snake oil salesbabes. We pride ourselves in helping survivors gain the clarity, support, and strength to demand refunds, share their stories (when they desire to do so) and extract themselves from the culty landscape of girl-boss hell. We love to see it when high level scammers can admit they've been wrong, make proper repairs/amends, and take off the influencer hats - as they join us to end the pyramid scam.
We really blew up around the time that some other influencers (purporting to be more “ethical” versions of influencers/coaches) called out Ashae. We later found out that these ethics girlies were also just scammers. You can read more about our expose of how this group - who came to call themselves Ethics for Coaching (EFC) - was actually just another MLM hun-led endeavor. It’s a fascinating tale, and at one point they even tried to claim to be a regulatory board for the enter coaching industry! The egos abound.
Our snark: We are a snark page, which means that we are poking fun as a way to educate (and maintain our sanity). We’ve noticed over the years that unfortunately new age coaches prime their victims to view snark and humor in this way as “unspiritual” or even something that could introduce “bad karma” into their lives. Some coaches have gone has far as to tell their clients to not read the sub, or primed them to view it as "full of haters" (sounds a lot like how cults talk about online criticism and receipts about their abuse... hmmmmm.)This idea that snark is unspiritual is a part of the new-age cult mindset that we believe would do survivors well to deprogram from. Luckily, in the Reddit-world, we get to build our “karma” by shedding light onto the horrifying truth of these scams. We invite you to be open to the idea of snark being a liberatory tool; and of course if you prefer to be more informational than snarky - that’s ok too.
“Mandatory” listening: You’ll notice we have a flair “Katya was here first” because we are big fan girls of the podcast Love & Light Confessionals, which provides you with an insider exposé on the new-age, coaching, and wellness world’s most bizarre antics. Katya has been holding this lens down for quite some time (especially when 2020 hit and these scamfluencers got extra wet and wild). Our fav eps - and most relevant ones to this divine feminine polarity pyramid sector - include:

• The Hippie Love Affair with Alt-Right Conspiracy Theory
• Boss Babe Culture & the Divine Feminine
• Life in Spiritual Girlboss Hell Ft: Teal Swan and the Sophia Code
• Guru Culture & the Divine Masculine
• Is Cancel Culture Unspiritual?
• Bonus EP: NXVIM & New Age Predation
• The Polarity Trend
• Polarity Part 2: Mars & Venus Edition
• Sisterhood of the Sacred No Homo
• How the Grift is Grifted
• The Fall of the Coaching Industry

The coaches (+ Ashae associates):

• Melanie Ann Layer - aka “Top Dog Scammer” - aka “MAL” who is a primary mentor of Carly’s. Former MLM hun turned Tony Robbins student. Claims to have made over 80 million in sales from her scam. MAL has set a primary industry standard for many coaches that operate similar to Carly in their grift.
  
• John Wineland - aka “JW” aka "Johnny Boy" - who is also a primary mentor and trainer of Caryl and her boo Allan McGrath Isbel. They have each gone through his 1000 hour teacher training that is basically a men’s right red-pill extravaganza masquerading as this new trend called “Polarity”. JW came to prominence by dating “Guru Jagat” aka Katie Griggs who was a famous scammer guru (now deceased) who has been allegations of abuse and financial fraud against her.
  
• Madelyn Moon - girlfriend of JW. Close friends with Allan’s ex (Luna Battalia).
  
• Allan McGrath Isbell aka “Al the Incel” aka Ashae’s Boo. Founder of a “divine masculine” group called Thirteen Pines that hosts the gurus like JW. Ex husband of Luna Battalia. Teaches a lot of "red pill" content that is rooted in incel ideology and recruitment tactics.
  
• Luna Battalia aka Luna Love aka Whitney. Ex wife of Allan McGrath Isbell (Ashae’s boo), besties with Madelyn Moon, Jolie Dawn, Leola, Sophia Le Page, Karen Prosen.
  
• Aimee Batuski and Ellie Montgomerie who run the org “Desire on Fire” and a summit called “The Feminine Revolution” - Carly got real close with these ladies when she was feeling the heat from all the refund requests coming through after her exposé. They all had many dinners together and a vacation to Portugal, but then something seemed to happen and they haven’t really been as cozy since… There’s some speculation on the sub that Allan and Aimee got a little too friendly.
  
• Rebecca Ives aka "The Content Queen" aka "The Content Queef". Also a (former?) downline of MAL. She and her husband support Ashae during her "cancellation" and harassed survivors on this sub. Her husband likes to call us the "hall monitors" of the coaching "industry" (an alt right talking point).
  
• Maya Night aka Meg Jamison, who we have affectionately nicknamed “Messy Meg” (because she literally licks dirt as a “practice” and brags about not having proper credentials).
  
• Molly Moonrise former facilitator and co-conspirator in being high AF with Ashae in her business.
  
• Jenna and Sab: Ashae’s current/former assistants who sometimes pops into our comments with some tantrums.
  
• Other assorted Austin influencers who always seem to be hanging around in the same hun-sphere and also referenced above: Sophia Le Page, Leola (aka “Talk Tantra to me” aka “The Pleasure Priestess”), Jolie Dawn
  
• Other influencers of note outside of Austin (for the time being…): Victoria Washington (former mentee of MAL’s), Christina Louise McBoyle aka “Solar Feminine Arts” (connected to Luna Battalia, Victoria Washington), Denell Barbara Randall aka Cervical Wellness (connected to Luna, Karen, Christina, and others), Karen Prosen (former business partner with Luna Battalia, friend of Denell, known sub hater, and ex cult-leader allegedly at “Angel Status” within Kaia Ra’s Sophia Code).
  

We hope this helps you navigate the sub a bit easier, and also gives you some foundational resources (particularly if you're a survivor of these spaces) to start healing and deprogramming. We are glad you're here and welcome you to interact in our community and reference the community guidelines as you go.
Re: safety - The anonymity here makes it safer for us (since these coaches be litigious AF). Also, many of these coaches have folks sign NDAs and waivers and this seems to be only increasing. Have your wits about you as you interact here. We sometimes get coach infiltration and this typically looks like people DMing you and trying to scare you away with threats of exposing your IP address, or alleging to know your identity, etc. etc. It's all bluffs so far. Sometimes infiltrators pretend to be fellow survivors and try to get you to disclose your identity, which we highly recommend against unless a deep trust and discernment has been met.
with love,
Spoons (+ Alice)

Hi all. I’ve been a lurker here for a few years and have been reading peoples stories to better understand Mormons, their lives and relationships with the church. I’m personal a nonbeliever in any religion, however I work at The Book of Mormon on Broadway.
We received this letter from a fan who found our show to be therapeutic for him as an exmormon. Here is his complete letter (warning it’s kinda long and some of it reads as a review or promotion for the show which is not why I share it, I’m not a backeinvester):
The Play That Changed My Life
By Richard McDonald
I am about to do it.... for the seventy fifth time.
The Book of Mormon on Broadway just celebrated 13 years on the Broadway stage at the Eugene O’Neil Thater and I have seen it seventy-four times....in the last 18 months! The reactions I get when people learn this range from: “What?” to “I think you need to see a therapist.”
Indeed, that is precisely the case. The show serves as a form of therapy for me, particularly since I made the decision in the summer of 2022 to depart from the Mormon Church after being deeply entrenched in its culture and teachings throughout my entire life.
To be frank, I always had a sense that something was not quite right. Yet, I chose to overlook these nagging feelings. I embarked on a mission (ironically in NYC), exchanged vows in the Mormon temple, and at times, I cherished the sense of community fostered by the faith. However, there were too many discrepancies that I could not reconcile. From the ban on Black people holding the Priesthood until 1978, to the myriad issues with church history, the treatment of LGBTQ individuals (I declined to support Prop 8 in California in 2008 and believe I was consequently blacklisted), and the marginalization of women in the church. I often felt very alone in my “liberal Mormon beliefs.”
An important part of my life has been my battle with addiction to prescription drugs. The church's response to my battles with addiction and legal issues resulting from those poor decisions – culminated in a "disciplinary council" which is better described as a “shame session” where you stand before your Mormon leaders to be judged. The result? They suspended my membership privileges so that I could repent. I was still encouraged to tithe during my suspension. Sit in shame but still give money as an act of obedience.
Despite grappling with these experiences, I endeavored to remain within the fold... to no avail. The final tipping point for me occurred in 2022 when I discovered that the church supports the clergy penitent privilege, allowing clergy to withhold information from law enforcement about child neglect or child sexual abuse disclosed during spiritual confessions if they deem it "reasonable and necessary" under church doctrine. I distinctly recall telling myself, "I cannot align myself with a church that prioritizes its image over safeguarding children from neglect and sexual abuse." Remarkably, the other concerns I had previously dismissed now appeared to gain greater significance and credibility.
Yet, losing my faith (the only thing I have ever known) is quite traumatic, especially when I came to the realization that the core belief system that existed in my life for so many years betrayed me on a spiritual level. This led me to question if I could ever trust my own personal judgement again. As I transitioned away from viewing the world through a Mormon lens, I experienced a profound sense of identity loss. The Mormon church had provided me with more than just a belief system; it offered a structured set of values, a supportive social network (if I followed along), and a clear sense of purpose.
As I contemplated life outside of the church, I found myself grappling with uncertainty and fear. Growing up in the Mormon faith instilled in me the belief that my safety and happiness hinged upon my unwavering obedience and loyalty to the church. The teachings emphasized that following the prophet equated to following God himself. Additionally, members were constantly reminded to be wary that Satan wants to take hold of you.
I have come to understand that experiencing mixed feelings is completely normal. Leaving my religion was not just about trauma; it brought about a sense of relief as well. No longer having to reconcile the parts of my belief system that never made sense was liberating for me. Yet-I recognized that I still needed some anchors through this transition, and I found them through an old friend and a Broadway Musical that simply changed my life.
Travis Stratford and I hail from the same town in Southern California and were both brought up in the Mormon Church. Now, we both find ourselves residing in New York City. Travis is a managing partner partner of Case Agency in Soho, and I have always regarded him as one of the smartest individuals I know. During our teenage years, I looked up to him as he was a few years older than me. Despite going our separate ways for 25 years—he served his mission in Sweden, while I served in NYC—our connection was immediate when we reunited. Travis offered me invaluable support and a non-judgmental perspective as a friend. Although Travis left the church in 2014, he never attempted to sway my beliefs in any direction. Instead, he simply listened and offered his insights when needed.
With the support of a close friend and a newfound liberating perspective free from the judgments of Mormonism, I found myself in Midtown Manhattan for a business meeting on 49th Street. As I strolled past the Eugene O’Neill Theater, I could not help but notice the bold letters proclaiming, "The Book of Mormon: The Funniest Musical of All Time!" Wait a minute... funny? I had not even thought about it that way, could it be possible to find humor in this situation? Is laughter an antidote for trauma? Without hesitation, I made my way to the box office and purchased a ticket for that evening's performance. Let me tell you, that night's show changed my life in the most remarkable way. Trey Parker and Matt Stone wrote the Book of Mormon on Broadway, renowned for their work on "South Park," and complemented by the musical prowess of Tony, Oscar, Grammy and Emmy Award winner Robert Lopez, the songwriter behind "Avenue Q and Frozen," The Book of Mormon is directed by the renowned director Casey Nicholaw.
The fascinating thing about "The Book of Mormon" is that even after attending seventy-four performances, I still discover something new each time. It is ironic how the play brilliantly displays the peculiar beliefs of the Mormon religion, which I once considered normal. Concepts like God residing on a planet named Kolob, the Garden of Eden being in Jackson County, Missouri, and that in 1978 God changed his mind about Black people.
But my biggest takeaway from this play? It truly is a beautiful story. A story that will make you laugh so hard and make you think about what matters most. It portrays how individuals from diverse cultures, races, and nations can unite and form a remarkable bond and sense of community. It is a community characterized by acceptance, love, a touch of mischief, and above all, equality.
The play begins with two young Mormon missionaries, two white boys, find themselves paired up and dispatched to Uganda. Kevin Clay delivers a masterful portrayal as Elder Price. If an Osmond and a Romney were to have a love child, it would be Kevin Clay.
As Price longs for a more glamorous locale such as Orlando. His missionary companion, Elder Cunningham, played by Cody Jamison Strand, exudes a sense of enthusiasm, grateful for any assignment he is given. Price and Cunningham’s contrasting emotions of disappointment and eagerness are bundled together as they are sent off to the country of Uganda.
Upon reaching Uganda, they encounter villagers grappling with the harsh realities of AIDS, drought, disease, and oppressive rulers. Despite facing numerous challenges, the villagers find solace in sharing their beloved uplifting song, "Hasa Diga Eebowai." Led by Mafala Hatimbi (the incomparable Jaques Smith), this number is initially reminiscent of something from "The Lion King," the song serves as a symbol of resilience amidst adversity. As life continues to pummel them, this song becomes their source of solace. With their trademark Mormon enthusiasm, Price and Cunningham enthusiastically join in, only to discover the true meaning behind the seemingly uplifting tune - "F--k you, God." It is a jarring introduction to the harsh realities of the world they have entered.
At their shared missionary apartment (which ironically has a sign on the front door that says, “No Soliciting.”) Price and Cunningham meet a spirited group of fellow missionaries, all white boys and led by their district leader Elder McKinley (PJ Adzima), This group of Elders have not achieved much during their time in Uganda - no baptisms, nothing to even close.
However, they do possess one unique asset: their own musical anthem to navigate moments of uncertainty and doubt. "Turn It Off" presents a vibrant and energetic musical piece that humorously explores the Mormon tradition of suppressing emotions and urges. Elder McKinley leads the song, instructing fellow missionaries on the art of "turning off" undesirable feelings through a catchy and engaging chorus. The performance captivates with its visually appealing choreography, prompting toe-tapping and an introduction to our friend “Steve Blade.” Actor PJ Adzima delivers a standout portrayal of Elder McKinley, showcasing impeccable comedic timing and impressive vocal skills that always leave me with just a huge smile.
The narrative unfolds into a love story where Price and Cunningham navigate their own journeys independently. Price attempts to evade his destiny, while Cunningham adopts a more reckless approach to his missionary work. Strand, who portrays Cunningham, displays surprising athleticism (especially in “Man Up”) and non-stop hilarity with every line he delivers. Meanwhile, the villagers grapple with the dilemma and intrigue of embracing the Book of Mormon, as preached by Cunningham and his imagination, while also contending with the daily threats to their survival from General Butt F--k king Naked (Derrick Williams), who wants to control the villagers by threatening violence and performing circumcision on all the women. Williams crushes it with his unforgettable facial expressions and delivers one of the funniest lines at the end of the show.
Meanwhile, at the heart of the Ugandan village stands Nabulungi (portrayed by Kim Exum), a character characterized by her beauty and open-mindedness. Elder Cunningham frequently struggles to recall her name correctly, often referring to her by comical and absurd aliases such as Nissan Altima or Neutrogena. Cunningham puts his own creative spin on the teachings of the Book of Mormon, incorporating elements from various pop culture references like Star Trek and Star Wars. Despite the humorous misunderstandings, Nabulungi demonstrates her willingness to embrace Cunningham's interpretation, leading to her successful “baptism” into the faith. The double entendre number “Baptize Me” (my personal favorite) is the perfect blend of innocence and mischief which demonstrates the beauty of humor and human connection. Through her enthusiasm, Nabulungi helps recruit as many as twenty new converts, solidifying Cunningham's status as a hero among the other Elders which is beautifully celebrated in the number “I am Africa.”
Exum is truly spectacular as Nabulungi with her angelic voice that gives me Whitney Houston vibes (seriously, she is that good) in numbers like "Sal Tlay Ka Siti" and the only truly solemn moment in "Book of Mormon, “Exum presents a poignant reprise of "Hasa Diga Eebowai" that is infused with deep sorrow and disillusionment that just hits perfectly.
The show marches towards the end with memorable musical numbers like “Spooky Mormon Hell Dream,” “I Believe,” and “Joseph Smith, the American Moses.” "Spooky Mormon Hell Dream" presents a lively and engaging musical sequence set in hell. This song showcases a cast of demonic figures, from a horned devil to dancing Starbucks cups, and cameos from Genghis Khan, Jeffrey Dahmer, Adolf Hitler and even Johnny Cochrane. It offers a humorous and irreverent twist on traditional Broadway show tunes. Visually striking, the performance features devilish costumes and makeup, effectively portraying the characters as residents of hell.
One of the standout moments in The Book of Mormon musical is the song "I Believe." In this pivotal scene, Elder Price faces the daunting challenge of confronting General Butt Fu--ing Naked who threatens the Ugandan village. To stop the warlord from perpetuating evil, Elder Price resolves to convert him to Mormonism. As the song unfolds, Elder Price gathers the courage and conviction needed for his mission. Throughout "I Believe," he passionately articulates the core beliefs of Mormonism, aiming to persuade the warlord to embrace his faith. However, the beliefs Elder Price emphasizes become increasingly unconventional and outlandish as the song progresses like the aforementioned “I believe that in 1978 God changed his mind about Black people!”
This is Kevin Clay’s signature moment as Elder Price in the production and he delivers every time. Adding to the brilliance of this number is the interaction between Clay and Derrick Williams (The General), they compliment each other seamlessly throughout the number.
"Joseph Smith American Moses" offers a witty and thought-provoking take on the life of Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church, as interpreted by the Ugandan characters narrated with whimsical charm by Exum. This song is a clever homage to classic musical theater numbers, featuring a lively ensemble of performers who sing and dance their way through Smith's life story, and it is arguably the funniest moment in the show.
The show smoothly transitions into its finale, which I will not spoil but simply describe as "something incredible." However, what truly shines in the heart and soul of the production is its talented supporting cast. This diverse group, led by original cast members John Eric Parker and Lewis Cleale, steals the spotlight at every turn. Parker's commanding presence, both in stature and vocal prowess, is highlighted magnificently in the finale, leaving a lasting impression on the audience. Cleale delivers a remarkable performance, seamlessly portraying multiple roles including Joseph Smith, the Mission President, Elder Price's Dad, and even Jesus Christ himself.
Among the ensemble, Darius Nichols captivates the audience with his comedic brilliance, eliciting laughter with every line he delivers. Stoney Mootoo follows suit, earning chuckles from the audience with her humorous performance and proving her versatility as an exceptional dancer. Mootoo, a native New Yorker advocates for “trusting your gift” on her social media-and her gift shows in the production. Jasmine Richardson delights as Mrs. Brown and Sister Kimbe delivering great enthusiasm and impressive vocal chops of her own. The Mormon missionary ensemble also delivers standout performances, with Henry McGinnis displaying his talent by portraying three distinct characters: a Mormon missionary, Jeffrey Dahmer, and Yoda (his Yoda voice is something to behold). Special mention goes to John Kramer, who wins the award for looking most Mormon and whose portrayal of Elder Pop Tarts steals the spotlight in the memorable number "Turn It Off." And a nod to Daniel Fetter who gives the most amazing “Hello” in the opening number and steps in admirably as an understudy for Elder Price when needed.
What is even more impressive is that the show is evolving. In an article by Michael Paulson from The New York Times, it was reported that "The Book of Mormon," a musical comedy by the creators of "South Park," recently underwent significant revisions prompted by calls from Black members of its cast to reassess its content. The show, originally featuring two white missionaries attempting to convert souls in an Ugandan village facing various challenges, including AIDS and a warlord, was subject to scrutiny for its portrayal of African and Black identities.
The concerns expressed by actors, including Arbender J. Robinson, in a letter to the creative team urged a reconsideration of the show's themes and characters in light of evolving societal perspectives. This initiative reflects a broader trend in the theater industry, where productions are revisiting their content mid-run to address issues of race and representation.
The revisions made to "The Book of Mormon" included elevating the main Black female character Nabulungi and refining the satire to avoid reinforcing stereotypes. Changes ranged from subtle adjustments to more overt alterations, such as giving the Ugandan villagers greater agency and removing jokes that could be construed as culturally insensitive. For instance, a scene involving a typewriter was replaced with one featuring an iPad, shifting the focus from the character's perceived lack of sophistication to a commentary on the pitfalls of social media. According to Derrick Williams, a cast member since 2014 who also supported the revisions, there is a delicate balance between satire and offensiveness that must be maintained. The changes made throughout the show aim to sharpen the satire of Mormonism while placing Uganda and its inhabitants at the forefront of the narrative.
The revisions to "The Book of Mormon" reflect a broader industry-wide effort to address concerns about representation and cultural sensitivity, acknowledging the evolving social landscape and the responsibility of artists to engage with these issues thoughtfully and respectfully. What is important to recognize here is that the show changed....in a good way. The Mormon Church might want to adopt this same way of thinking by acknowledging their past mistakes by simply stating: “We’re sorry and we will fix it.”
However, at its core, the show is a musical comedy that does not claim to offer definitive solutions to these complex issues. Nonetheless, these criticisms pale in comparison to what the play truly is and that is a beautiful love story by the best performers in the industry.
The exceptional performances in the show function as a balm for my spirit. With each burst of laughter and every catchy melody, I find solace from my past Mormon experiences. I have moments of clarity where I realize that this story depicts a journey from defiance towards God to gratitude, as reflected in the powerful refrain: "Thank you God Ma'hanibu eebowai!" It sends shivers down my spine every time.
I invite all of you to come to the Eugene O’Neil Theater and witness a play that is a testament to the transformative power of unity and acceptance, as individuals from diverse backgrounds come together and learn to love and embrace each other despite what the world and other religions say. Oh yeah, you will laugh too...a lot. And what do “I believe” now? ... My code of conduct today is quite simplistic; I never have the right to hurt another human being. The question I ask myself with each new day is, do I have a good heart, and do I do what I do with love and with compassion? I feel free now, free from the box, free from believing that I am right and that everyone else is wrong.
I believe in being a decent human being. I believe in joy; I believe in laughter, and I believe in the power of the human spirit. Everything else, I will figure out tomorrow... because tomorrow is a latter day. And no.... I do not have maggots in my scrotum. Richard McDonald is the Chief Strategy Officer for EGXFuels, a green energy company. Richard resides in the Upper East Side of Manhattan with his daughter, Emma. They attend The Book of Mormon often.

While Johnny Cage was once a famous action movie star, now washed up, Sonya Blade would be a successful military soldier in the Special Forces as a lieutenant.
But when she gets recruited by Liu Kang, joining the OIA, she would get demoted by her superiors Jax & Kenshi to restart her training & education as a rookie and get extra training from Li Mei, who teaches Sonya her old Umgadi ways, along with Kitana's help.
This way, we'd be able to bring back the old acrobatic Sonya Blade we've known and loved, without needing technology putting her down. Sonya would learn some magic in the best of her ability.

After watching Bam train for his upcoming bouts with Knoxville and Tremaine (the fight with that tattoo artist), it got me wondering....
Who is the toughest Jackass member?
The aforementioned Johnny never stood a chance against Butterbean, but I feel he took some good blows and his free shot might've wobbled a smaller foe.
Dunn was clearly hesitant about hitting a girl, and she did indeed kick his butt. Would he have fared better against a male challenger?
Satan - sorry, I meant Pontius - seemed to enjoy being attacked by the dude who can't accept that God didn't invent circumcisions. In fact he was clearly holding back when they ended up in a tussle. A potential dark horse.
Dave England apparently goes full Hyde when he has a few too many bevvies. Could he harness that power if backed into a corner?
Danger Ehren was the clear winner of dizzy boxing. I reckon he's in the top tier when it comes to fisty cuffs.
Preston has the size and anger issues to be a real danger.
I bet Wee Man can deliver a brutal nut punch.
I don't fancy Steve-O's chances much, but maybe he would prove me wrong.
What's your opinion?
Edit: I was mostly referring to who the best fighter would be, but happy for people to discuss who has the biggest cojones!

This is a story about a song, Remember His Name By Jurassic 5. The song starts off with sounds of a bell which sometimes indicates Death, a wolf howling, someone screaming "HELP HELLO" and other noise's then you here an old phone ringing and glitching whilst a voice of Zaakir who goes on to state to the person ak (akil) "Yo what's up ak" ak says "who is this" Zaakir says "its me zaak--ir" as the old telephone glitches out and we here 2 other voices, a kid saying "hello?" and another man saying "i got it hang up!" ak says "yo speak louder i cant hear" and Zaakir just hurry's up and says "Yo Its me Zaakir!" already not a whole lot going on but then Zaakir describes how he was watching television and feeling disturbed because he's just gotten news that "Some cat" has been shot and ak ask if its a "Gangster rapper." "Perhaps" says Zaakir, but he was looking at the face of one particular "Cat" and he has seen him before, "Can you remember where at"(ak) Zaakir states that he saw him at either the liquor store, the laundry mat or a party "and shit" But the guys this man was with no longer exist, like they just went away like that until ak tells him that he has known this man his entire life "Ever since i was young", he used to he see him rolling dice and he would see him once or twice a week but with all different types of women. This "cat" tried to keep in touch with ak but akil knew what was up with this guy and when ever he would come around his block he would duck or walk away. "In the mid-eighties he went crazy and had ladies selling there baby's for him to get quick easy cash. He had a lot of friends that he would visit and Thrill seeking people under the influence of this guy's teachings. Akil's dad knew the guy well from meeting him at "the hotel" and his friend Johnny "kicked it with him in a jail cell" a lot of people met him with a female and was connected to drug sales for rich and poor some better or worse, The last and the and the first "Walked the earth But Cant Avoid His Turf" and it hurts akil to think about this guy but he still cannot "remember his name" he thinks 2na (another friend of Zaakir's and akil's) knows but his wife cooked and he's going to eat. Zaakir hangs up the phone and rings 2na "Yo! asalaam ulakum" he' says after asking whats up on Zaakirs street "Man the feudin' is on" but the reason he called is because it was the "cat" from his building and asks if 2na's seen him 2na says he met him out in pasadena "Remember seven (another friend) "Boomaringo" and if he wasn't mistaken it was between fair oaks and lake whilst they were getting a lunch break. They then drove right by the place they rest at and it was mayhem the "cats" have pistols and it was brown and black as they patrol the hood looking for trouble but they ended up fleeing the scene "or should we say fled" and suddenly there were 2 cars on the street movin fast and when 2na looked he saw the "cat" in his back passenger seat. But still 2na cant "remember his name". after we hear some voices Zaakir thinks "where have i seen this brother before?" as we get an ad lib of the *well it was either at the liquor store or laundry mat* and *ive been knowing him all my life and also *"Its Like You Cant Avoid His Turf"* and finally Zaakir cracks the code. His name is de-de-death. Yep death so that means everyone one who he met Has Died, akils dad and his homeboy Johnny, all the women he saw him with and the people he "ran with" who no longer Exist. He is Death.
Thanks. My first post and idk if ill do more i just found this song interesting and funny thing is my dad showed me this album and group so thanks to him if you have anything interesting to say please do it would be a pleasure. Bye

I like to do wrestling related book reports, and in the past, this sub responded really well to my posts. Again, though, if y'all feel like this isn't the kind of content for this sub, let me know, and I'll post elsewhere.
Very, very short book that didn't detail too much, with a large portion being Billy just ranting on the history of wrestling or fighting.
As always, I attempted to keep to chronological order of events, even though Billy didn't tell a lot of this in order, and he never dated any story.
(Note: the number of guys named "Billy" in this post is just unreal and gave me a headache)
Billy describes how his dad, grandfather, uncle, and great-grandfather were all world-class boxers or fighters. He says his father taught him a ton of things to do in a fight and even underhanded tactics, like using a pencil to defend himself. Billy says a 4H pencil had the toughest lead that you could sharpen out and use as a weapon. The best part was that it wasn't classified as a weapon, so you could avoid the jail time that came with having knives.
Billy describes running home from school as 3 boys chased him. When he got home, crying, his dad asked him what was going on. After Billy explained, his dad said, "You can either fight the 3 of them or fight me." Billy chose the 3 boys, and his dad went with him to make sure the fights were 1 on 1. After Billy beat up the 1st two kids, the third one wanted none of it. Billy says this was the first time he saw his dad was proud of him.
Billy dreamed of being a pro boxer, but one day, as a child, he was struck in the eye by a metal sign that some other kids were playing with and severely tore his retina. He spent 6 weeks in the hospital, and his boxing dreams were over.
Billy's uncle wanted him to try out pro wrestling because it was popular in the 60s, but Billy's dad wanted him to do amature wrestling, though it wasn't as lucrative as pro wrestling. Eventually, Billy was brought to a local YMCA where he started to train amature.
Before long, Billy's dad relented and took him to Billy Riley's gym, the same place that Karl Gotch trained and that Dynamite Kid would go train at as well. Billy even met John Foley there, who would go on to be a feared shooter and manage Dynamite Kid in Stampede Wrestling. Though if that's the only place you know John Foley from, then you won't have a high opinion of him.
John Foley was a legit bad ass shooter for most of his career, who was known to take liberties with guys. By the time he got to Stampede Wrestling, though, he was an old timer who was more known as a drunk who everyone ribbed. One story suggests where he lost his nerve, and that would be the time he was being a little too physical in the ring with Lanny and Randy Poffo, prompting their dad Angelo came to the ring, and all 3 Poffo men beat the living shit out of Foley. Bret Hart says he "never lived it down."
Billy says the best match he ever saw was a "friendly" sparring contest between Jack Dempsey and John Foley that left both men with black eyes, broken noses and blood coming out of their ears and mouths. Billy says they were still close friends after.
Billy calls shoot fighting/grappling "physical chess," and he spent 12 years learning this at Reilly's Gym, also known as the Snake Pit.
Billy learned "catch-as-catch-can" (or Greco-Roman) wrestling in The Snake Pit from Charlie Carrol.
Charlie Carrol was 55 years old and 155 pounds to Billy's 6 foot 2, 190 pound 17 year old, but Charlie hurt Billy every single time they sparred. Billy says that Charlie kept him humble.
Billy puts over modern MMA fighters but says the best modern MMA fighter couldn't hold a candle to a mediocre 1930s catch wrestler.
It's not a long book, but a significant section early on is just Billy going over the history of catch fighting and amateur wrestling all the way back to the 1800s. He complains that modern amateur wrestling is all about power and maneuvering for points and says he doesn't even watch the Olympics anymore. It's actually super fascinating as he details various amature techniques used in different Olympic competitions and where they originated from.
He tells a story of how when he was a teenager, his coach Billy Riley (who was 55 years old) would walk with him down the street and often try to grapple with Billy or show him some maneuver right there and Billy says people would stare at them like they were homosexuals and says it was so embarrassing. At the time, homosexuality was illegal in England.
Billy Robinson is critical of modern coaching, which he says consists of the coach giving a ton of positive feedback. Billy Robinson won multiple amature championship tournaments and bouts but never heard a good word from Billy Riley. When Billy Robinson won his first amature world title, he remembered Riley saying, "That was good." Riley would later explain that it wasn't his job to tell Robinson what was good, but it was his job to tell Robinson what was wrong and where he can correct himself. Interesting take on coaching.
In 1956, Billy placed 3rd at the nationals for amature wrestling. In 1957, he won the nationals tournament! Riley told Billy Robinson, "You've won all the cups and the medals. Why don't you take me out and buy me a steak dinner?" When Billy Robinson said he couldn't afford to, Riley said to him, "It just goes to show you kid, you can't buy steak with medals. It's time you turned pro."
Billy says he regrets not putting pro wrestling off another couple of years. He thinks he should have been amature wrestling in the Olympics. He beat everyone who eventually wrestled on the Brittish team, and he thought he could have won a medal.
Billy turned pro at 19 years old and was asked to help get pro wrestling going in Sweden. The problem was that the Sweden Olympic amature wrestling team wouldn't allow it unless the pros proved they were legit and could beat them in an amateur contest. Billy beat them all, including Alex Gronburg, a 2 time Olympic champion and former world champion, and Gosta Andersson, who quit after a minute, saying, "Hey, it's too dangerous for us."
Billy Robinson asked to go to Spain and wrestle for a new promotion, but as he was getting ready to leave, his coach Billy Riley warned him that if he worked for that company he would be black balled out of most major European wrestling companies. Robinson told Riley that he had given his word, and he said this was the first time he ever went against Riley's suggestion.
It didn't matter because Billy said the Spain promotion fizzled out before he even got there, but no one told him, and he flew to Spain for no reason.
He ended up staying in Spain, living with someone Billy referred to as "the English professor" who introduced him to people like Earnist Hemmingway and Sophia Loren and got Billy work in a movie
One day, the professor told Billy that his name was in the newspaper, and sure enough, Billy was being advertised in a new wrestling promotion. When Billy called them, he was informed that they had a job for him. For 2 years, 1960-1961, Billy wrestled in Spain and made a name for himself.
Billy would wrestle in tournaments and other tours during this time as well, in places like Germany and Belgium.
It was at these tournaments when Billy started noticing guys wanting to train with him and only him. Billy days. "It was odd!"
Billy loved zoos and had opinions on the good ones. He says he could spend all day just watching gorillas
Billy says he didn't like France much, saying that compared to places like Germany, Switzerland, and Austria, France was pretty dirty and gross back then.
Billy seems to have loved Lebanon the most, and being a huge history buff, Billy goes on a tangent about the history of Lebanon.
Billy wrestled in India in 1962, and on the way back, he stopped in Lebabon right before a war broke out, and he had to quickly escape.
Billy says his father told him that he should pretend to not know English when traveling and not be identified as an English speaking person. He said this advice helped him his whole life while traveling.
The first time Billy got to India, he was shocked at the poverty and state of it. He remembers seeing dead animals all over the place and people sleeping in the streets among rats. Billy also puts over India and a big wrestling country and said he had a good time there.
Billy says he was fortunate to wrestle the original Dara Singh. Dara Singh was a huge name in India, and he eventually went to prison for killing 3 men. He did it because those 3 men killed his brother, so it was a revenge killing. Years later, he would be pardoned and released. This is when Billy beat him in India.
In India, it was legitimately against the law for a Muslim to wrestle against a Hindu, so the Muslim community "adopted" Billy Robinson as their guy to fight the Hundu guys. It's pretty fascinating imo.
After India, Billy wrestled in Napal and said he had a great time, even wrestling private matches for the King of Napal.
While in Napal, Billy was ribbed into approaching a live leopard and says it was the first time in his life that he ever felt fear.
Billy even helped some Americans set up a play for the King of Napal, where Billy was the stage manager and even took a couple of bumps on the hard wood floor. He says the King loved it so much that he called for an encore, so Billy had to do the painful bump again.
Billy recalls one time in Napal, a local accidently hit and killed a cow with his truck. Since cows were sacred, the man was killed right there, and his body hung from a lamppost.
While in Germany wrestling a tournament that was cross promoting with a ten pin bowling competition, Billy met his future wife Ursula. She was working on the bowling side and Billy on the wrestling side. Billy says when their eyes first locked, he was in the ring, and she was in the front row. Billy says, "It was the beginning of the end, for my single days." 18 months later she came to England and they got married.
Billy says he played some charity bowling games against the Beatles in the early 60s.
Dave Ruhl was an extremely popular face in Stampede Wrestling out of Calgary, and through his uncle Ray Steele, Dave got ahold of Billy and invited him to Calgary Billy says Stampede promoter Stu Hart saw Billy wrestle one match and then invite Billy to come to Stampede Wrestling.
While backstage at one of his first Stampede shows, he saw a bunch of big gues in the dressing room talking. Through eavesdropping, he heard them talking about football and asked them if they were wrestlers or football players. They said football players, and so Billy insisted they leave the dressing room. Things got tense and heated, but eventually, Billy made it clear that if they didn't leave, he would remove them. He says they all scurried out of the room and notes that one of them was a young Wayne Coleman, the future "Superstar" Billy Graham.
After reading Billy Graham's book, it's clear that these two fucking hated eachother, with Graham calling Billy a bully who took liberties with less experienced guys in the ring. In Graham's book, he details how poorly Robinson treated him when their paths crossed in Stampede Wrestling. Graham's book made no mention of Billy kicking him out of a locker room nor the supposed contract with Verne that forbade Robinson from hurting Graham.
Down the line when Billy came to Minnesota, Billy Robinson claimes that Billy Graham insisted that Verne write up a contract that prohibited Billy Robinson and Billy Graham from squaring up. I don't know the validity of this claim, but Billy Robinson says Billy Graham was so scared that he only came to Minnesota with the guarantee that Robinson wouldn't hurt him.
This claim about a contract and Graham refusing to work with Robinson, might come from the time in Minnesota when Graham opted out of working with him in favor of Wahoo McDaniel. One time they were matched up and Graham approached Robinson backstage and made a show of wrapping razor blades in his taped up hands, warning Robinson that if he attempted to shoot on him, that Graham would "shred you from your face to the tip of your toes." This is all from Graham's book, with Billy making no mention of it.
In Bruce Hart's book, he tells a story about how they had The Stomper penciled in to challenge NWA World Champion Dory Funk Jr, but they had The Stomper face Billy Robinson 2 weeks prior. The two meshed so poorly that it devolved into an ugly shoot, with the fans chanting boring at them. Eventually The Stomper left and got counted out, before getting to the back and telling Stu he is quitting. They had no choice but to put Robinson in his place, and while the match was amazing and Robinson would be a good face for Stampede at the time, even Bruce calls him a bully and finishes it by saying "here's not to you Mr Robinson, there is no place in Heaven for those who prey."
After Billy wrestled Dory Funk Jr in an 1 hour draw, and after Dory invited Billy to the States to wrestle.
Before heading over to the States full time, Billy did tours in England, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong and Australia where he won the World title for a company that Jim Barnett was promoting.
Billy met Jack Brisco in Australia, shortly after winning the world title there. Billy remembers there first match together, saying that Jack was trying to show off a little too much so Billy said he showed him a simple catch hold that put poor Jack in the hospital for a couple days! Billy says the 2 became friends and calls him a good amateur wrestler and great guy.
Jack Brisco was the one who first told Billy about "shoot wrestlers" in the States. Billy never heard the term before but says a shooter is just another word for catch wrestling.
Billy mentions a rib that Jack Brisco and Dick Murdoch played on him during that Australia tour. Dick introduced Billy to chewing tobacco and purposely misinformed Billy on how to enjoy it. Billy swallowed the juice and vomiting all over the place.
Another time, Jack and Billy were up in Billy's hotel room all night, talking holds and even practicing them on one another. It was middle of the night, so Billy was in his underwear when Jack asked him to go get the newspaper from down the hall. The second Billy got in the hallway, Jack locked him out and made Billy sneak back to his room a few floors up in just his boxers. Billy said this was the nicest hotel in Australia, too.
Billy says he got his first taste of American pro wrestling in Hawaii, where he wrestled for several months. Every single guy who writes a wrestling book inevitably ends up doing a tour in Hawaii.
It was in Hawaii where Billy met Verne Gagne, who was "wrestling" a tour there, but really, Verne was on vacation and wrestling as a means to vacation for free. A lot of guys did that with Hawaii back in the day.
Billy and Verne wrestled a tag team match together, and after Verne made sure to watch how Billy was as a singles wrestler. Verne asked Billy to come back to the mainland in 1972.
Verne even asked Billy to train his son Greg, and they ended up inviting several other guys to a small wrestling camp. The group consisted of Verne's son Greg, Ric Flair, Ken Patera, Jim Bunzell (who would later team with Ken in AWA and be one half of the Killer Bee's in the WWE), Bob Bruggers (a former Miami Dophins linebacker), and Hossien Khosrow Vaziri (the future Iron Shiek).
An infamous story happened at this camp, early on, Shiek was the only one of the 6 who had amateur experience, and one day he was boasting to the others about how neither Verne or Billy could get him on his back in an amateur bout. Billy heard about this and challenged him immediately to spar. Shiek was successful in holding his stance on his knees, with Billy unable to turn him. So Billy viciously dropped his knee into Shiek's thigh, fucking him up bad. Then Billy casually rolled Shiek over and said "told you I could flip you."
Billy acknowledges Sheik as a very good amateur but says he has a big head a big mouth. He knew Shiek wasn't familiar with catch-as-catch-can, ankle submissions, neck cranks or double wristlocks and took advantage of him. Billy just casually says "I knelt on his thigh in a way we do. He couldn't walk for two days and couldn't work out at the camp for two weeks."
Billy remembers a match he did early on working for Verne, where a fan in the front row was being obnoxious and screaming at Billy all match. After the bout, Billy went and picked the fan up out of his seat and smacked him a few times and notes how the fan stayed quiet the rest of the show. When he got to the back he was chewed our by Verne who was afraid of a lawsuit. Billy says the fan ended up getting tickets to a future show.
In the middle of the book he goes on a rant about the history of how wrestling started in carnival tents and how champions made money. He calls Gorgeous George a "carnie wrestler" and credits him for accelerating the change in how the general audience looks at pro wrestlers. He resents the sentiment that all wrestlers are showmanship guys and puts over himself and others like Lou Thesz as legit tough guys. Billy is always putting over his skills as catch fighter in the book.
Billy says he and Lou Thesz became pretty good friends.
Billy says Lou Thesz would call Ed "Strangler" Louis as the best wrestler of all time, while Billy says he would call Billy Joyce the best of all time. But he says that Billy Joyce said that George Gregory was the best of all time.
Billy describes one time he wrestled Verne Gagne with Lou Thesz as the special referee. Billy says that he and Verne weren't getting along at this point, so throughout the match, Billy was sorta abusing Verne and taunting him the whole time. Billy says he kept turning to Lou and saying "Look at this Lou!" And "What do you think of this Lou?" As he took advantage of Verne. Eventually Lou piped up and said, "Jesus Billy, take it easy on him, he is the boss."
Ed "Strangler" Louise had an "open" contract, meaning that if you were matched up against him and wanted to shoot, Ed encouraged it. What a badass.
John Pesek was a wrestler with legit Olynpic credentials. John Pesek decided to shoot on Ed Lewis when Ed was very sick and had boils all over. It was a hard fight but Ed won. Lou Thesz resented Pesek for attempting this and even had him black balled by the NWA later in his career. Lou never forgave John for shooting on Ed when Ed was sick and never admitted Pesek was talented in any way. Billy clarifies that John Pesek was legitimate in the ring and tells this story as a way to show Lou Thesz power back in those days.
Ben Assirati was a freakishly strong guy who was known as a legit street fighter. Billy says he was a masochist who not only liked to hurt people in the ring, but also liked to get hurt, himself. Ben Assirati tried to start a rival promotion in England, and was challenged to a legitimate shoot fight by promoters (and world class ass kickers) George Gregory and Billy Joyce, but Ben turned them down. Of course, when Lou Thesz was NWA Champion and touring through England, Ben made a big show of challenging him beforehand and even got the newspapers to print about it. On the night of the show, Lou had police block the entrance and not let Ben in the arena. Billy tells this story as if Lou was turning down Ben's challenge for the way he turned down Gregory and Joyce. But Billy really puts over Ben Assirati as a scary guy in the ring and says that people actually died in the ring with Ben. Wild claim that I couldn't back up online, though there are a ton of stories to speak on Ben's notorioty in the ring.
In Lou Thesz memoir, he stated that he challenged Ben first multiple times and Ben refused all of them
Billy says that when he first got to the States, Lou Thesz and Karl Gotch were close friends who respected one another. But something happened that led to the two refusing to speak to one another.
Billy says a lot of old timers were hot heads, and gives an example of when his son was born. Billy named him Spencer after Winston Churchill, but Karl Gotch got angry at this and said it should have been a powerful name like Thor or something silly. Billy says that he and Karl nearly came to blows in the street over this. So whatever fractured the relationship between Gotch and Thesz, it was probably minor and petty.
When talking about modern wrestlers, Billy always refers to them in quotations. Like in his book he says "pro wrestlers" as if he is air quoting when talking about modern guys.
Billy says a big difference between wrestling in America vs England was how much guys talked in the ring in America (called spots). Billy says this never happens over seas and says he didn't call spots verbally.
Another big difference is how pay structure worked. In America it was all based on the house and what the promoter felt you earned. Over seas, Billy says he and the promoter would sit alone and discuss the pay prior to the match. Ticket sales were irrelevant, you always got paid what you agreed to. He says America is where all the backstabbing and politicking started in wrestling.
Billy says Danny Hodge was probably one of the most dangerous guys from his time wrestling and puts him over as one ofthe greatest American wrestlers ever.
Billy describes an interesting concept for wrestling promoters back in his day. Every promoter had what he called a "policman" wrestler. When a new guy came in and wanted to challenge the top draw, he would face this "policman" wrestler as the top draw or promoter watched closely. For example, if you were looking to challenge Lou Thesz, first you would face Ray Steele as Thesz watched and judged, then after he and Ray would talk about the guy together.
While working for Verne Gagne in the early 70s, Billy was asked to wrestle with a green as grass guy and Verne told Billy to go 10 minutes before he beat him. This baffled Billy and Verne had to explain its a taping and they need to put on a good show. Billy says he shouldn't have done that, especially considering how Verne would go on to screw with Billy's payoffs down the line.
Billy says he took the kid down at the 9 minute mark and stretched him, nearly breaking his elbow as he screamed and cried and tapped out. Billy says the guy gave an interview later and said pro wrestling is the nastiest and most dangerous sport there is. Billy chuckles at this but he took some rookie and killed any interest the kid had in wrestling while abusing him.
Billy tells a wild story about a short real fight he had with Peter Maivia in Japan. Billy, Peter and a few other guys were eating at a restaurant when Peter got upset at how the menu and ordering system worked. Peter got so worked up that Billy yelled at him to calm down. Later as Billy was walking towards his hotel, a drunk Peter Maivia approached Billy looking for a fight. Billy attempted to restrain him, telling Peter as he held him, "Peter stop it. I don't want to hurt you." But Peter in his enraged, drunken state goes to bite Billy in the neck! Billy, having been trained in self defense and combat like this, knew to tuck his chin to save his neck, but Peter still bit down hard and into Billy's face! Billy says he still had scars from this 40 or 50 years later! When blood started pouring down Billy's cheek, he snapped and laid out Peter with an unspecified number of strikes that left Peter with a broken nose and two black eyes. He says the fight lasted all of 15 seconds. Billy says he had to go to the hospital to get stitches and shot for a human bite.
The next morning, Billy nearly kicked Peter's door down and told Peter he is lucky to be alive. Billy points out how biting the neck is an attempt to kill him, so he gives Peter a chance to try again. A very sober Peter backed down immediately
Billy says he saw an interview on Tv where The Rock claimed that Peter Maivia bit Billy's eye out and he needed surgery. Billy refutes this claim and says the only eye surgery he ever had was when he was a kid.
Billy says a lot of guys would spar once or train once with someone and then spend their whole career saying they were trained by that person. He gave an example of one time, Bill Watts called him up asking about Johnny Eagles, who said he trained at Billy's gym. Billy had a good laugh because Eagles stopped by his gym one time to borrow money.
Billy often goes on tangents or rants about bullies and how much he hates them. He calls them cowards who always back down when challenged. I guess that's why he doesn't see himself as a bully, while almost everyone who came up after him clarifies him as the biggest bully they ever met. I've read several, several dozen wrestling book, and only 1 guy didn't have anything bad to say about Billy. That was Dynamite Kid, who didn't have anything nice to say about Billy either. He was just the only guy to bring up Billy Robinson and not rant about how awful of a person he was.
If the only guy to not have a negative story about you in Dynamite Kid, then you may be an asshole imo.
Billy says he was AWA World Heavyweight Champion for 24 hours "until they changed the decision on me." I'm not a big AWA buff so if anyone knows this story I would like to hear it.
Billy briefly mentions the Gagne produced movie in 1974 movie, "The Wrestler" but unfortunately Billy has no tales from the set or stories about it at all. Billy alongside Dusty Rhodes and Dick Murdoch all appeared in the film.
One time while in Alberta wrestling for Stampede, Billy was invited along with a couple other wrestlers to have dinner with the Primier of Alberta (like a State Governor) and at the event Billy was asked to join the premieres wife in the morning. So when the wife reminded Billy about coming by at 8am the next morning, Billy used British slang in response and said "Yes, I'll come knock you up at 8 o'clock tomorrow." Poor Billy had to explain that where he's from, someone waking you up in the morning by knocking on your door is a knocker upper.
Billy calls Canadian wrestler George Gordienko the strongest wrestler he ever got in the ring with. George Gordienko was originally hoping to be a doctor before becoming an exceptionally successful wrestler and someone who Lou Thesz once called one of the best of all time. Gordienko has been lost to time for the most part since he was banned from the United States during the McCarthy era. George married a woman who was the head of a communist party in America and poor George never got to return. He continued to wrestle in the UK until a bad ankle injury forced him to retire. He pivoted again and became a pretty succesful artist. Super fascinating story imo.
Over in Japan, Karl Gotch was working for Giant Baba in the Japan Pro Wrestling Alliance and their competition, the International Wrestling Enterprise contacted Billy Riley and asked who was the best catch wrestler available to counter Gotch, who was doing big business for JWA. Riley immediately suggested Robinson, who was quickly invited to Japan for the IWE.
Karl and Billy were friends but working for rival promotions in Japan, so they could only meet and get together in secret.
Billy ended up winning the World title for the IWE and they asked him to move his family to Japan long-term.
Billy wasn't having a good time coaching the young Japanese guys and complained to Karl Gotch that it seems like their minds are elsewhere. Karl advised Billy to hurt one of them to get them in line. Billy refused and said he was their coach, he wasn't supposed to hurt them. This is wild to hear from Billy, who's entire reputation among the next generation was that he was a bully who liked to hurt people.
A week later Billy got caught in a snowstorm after fighting with his wife, so he was in a bad mood as he walked into the gym to train the young guys. One of them mouthed off so Billy says he lined them all up and wrestled each of them into submission. He calls it an accident, bit says he ended up breaking one of their arms that day and after that all the young guys took everything more seriously and treated Billy with more respect and admiration.
Billy seems to have mixed feelings on his time in Japan since he did well and early on was treated well by promoters. He said in Japan if you have something someone needs, you're a God in their eyes and your treated as such. He says if you need something from someone though, they always make it clear that they are in charge and treat you poorly. He says he and Karl both started to really resent the culture there towards the end of their runs in Japan.
It was after or near the end of his Japan tour that Billy and his wife got divorced. He doesn't expand on it in any way in his book. Barely gets a passing mention.
In the mid-70s Billy was in rough shape, his drinking was out of control and his knee was beyond fucked. Billy started working odd jobs outside the wrestling business, including a security job gig in Las Vegas where he was training other security guards and he managed a gas station in Minnesota. Billy calls this the lowest point of his life and says the gas station job was the most boring thing he ever did in his life.
Antonio Inoki contacted Billy when he was running the gas station and invited him to Japan for a big celebration show where they would have a match. Billy doesn't speak highly of the match and says he just had knee surgery and could barely get in the ring, but if you look up reports on his 1975 match with Inoki, all you see is massive, massive praise and people calling it one of the best matches ever at the time.
Billy calls Inoki the best Japanese wrestler of all time.
Yuko Miyato of The Union of Wrestling Forces International (UWFI) contacted Billy and sent him to Nashville to train guys to go to Japan for them and Billy says between himself and Karl Gotch, every wrestler they trained went on to be world champions. Billy lists Shigeo Miyato and Nobuhiko Takada as examples.
Billy says Yuko Miyato "really saved me." Billy says he was drinking excessively and gained a ton of weight after the divorce, and that his knees and hips had to be replaced. Billy says his nervous system was fucked up from all the years of grappling and he couldn't effectively train anymore. He got a 2nd life back in Japan and even became the head coach at his old Snake Pit gym after Riley passed away in 1977. Billy says he ended spending 15 years in Japan training the next generation of catch/mma fighters.
Billy talks about the difference in training Japanese guys compared to others, since Japanese guys are more scientific and teach techniques down to the specificity. Billy didn't teach like that, he taught concepts and ideas that anyone could use on anyone else. He struggled to get some guys over the "belt system" in Japan where a brown belt guy would never challenge a black belt guys. Billy says anyone can beat the best, regardless of their belt.
Near the end of the book, Billy again rants about modern guys and how they know one or two moves and consider themselves catch style wrestlers. Billy also rants again about bullies and how you don't train people by taking advantage of them. (Tell that to Iron Sheik) Billy cites Verne Gagne as an example of a guy who didn't know how to spar or lock in submissions, and would train guys by exhausting them before he jumped on them and shot for a hold. Billy says he and Karl Gotch resented that and made sure their training camps were the opposite of that. It's funny because Billy literally did this stuff with Verne Gagne! Maybe he is implying that he learned then not to that stuff, but he doesn't outright say it. Billy as as guilty of bullying as the Verne imo.
Billy thinks modern MMA is shooting themselves in the foot for not having pinfalls. He says that fighting off your back is exciting and opens the door for more to be done. He says that when a guy is trying not to get pinned, he may leave an opening somewhere for the other guy to take advantage of.
Billy complains how modern boxers are looking for knockouts and training to knock people out. He says that's not how it's done, you fight and wait for the opening, Billy says you wait for the knockout to come to you, you don't go looking for it. He laments the same thing in submissions as well, saying you don't go looking to lock in a submission, you maneuver around and wait for the opening to present itself. You wait for the submission to come to you. He is extremely critical of modern "catch style" wrestlers/ fighters.
Billy is critical of modern wrestling and fighting having such short time limits, saying that short 2 or 3 minute rounds means that it's all about power.
The book ends with Billy ranting about modern fighters and amateur wrestlers and how Catch wrestling was the greatest sport of all time. I hope I love something as much as Billy loved catch-as-catch-can wrestling.

Very, very short book that didn't detail too much, with a large portion being Billy just ranting on the history of wrestling or fighting.
As always, I attempted to keep to chronological order of events, even though Billy didn't tell a lot of this in order, and he never dated any story.
(Note: the number of guys named "Billy" in this post is just unreal and gave me a headache)
Billy describes how his dad, grandfather, uncle, and great-grandfather were all world-class boxers or fighters. He says his father taught him a ton of things to do in a fight and even underhanded tactics, like using a pencil to defend himself. Billy says a 4H pencil had the toughest lead that you could sharpen out and use as a weapon. The best part was that it wasn't classified as a weapon, so you could avoid the jail time that came with having knives.
Billy describes running home from school as 3 boys chased him. When he got home, crying, his dad asked him what was going on. After Billy explained, his dad said, "You can either fight the 3 of them or fight me!" Billy chose the 3 boys, and his dad went with him to make sure the fights were 1 on 1. After Billy beat up the 1st two kids, the third one wanted none of it. Billy says this was the first time he saw his dad was proud of him.
Billy dreamed of being a pro boxer, but one day, as a child, he was struck in the eye by a metal sign that some other kids were playing with and severely tore his retina. He spent 6 weeks in the hospital, and his boxing dreams were over.
Billy's uncle wanted him to try out pro wrestling because it was popular in the 60s, but Billy's dad wanted him to do amature wrestling, though it wasn't as lucrative as pro wrestling. Eventually, Billy was brought to a local YMCA where he started to train amature.
Before long, Billy's dad relented and took him to Billy Riley's gym, the same place that Karl Gotch trained and that Dynamite Kid would go train at as well. Billy even met John Foley there, who would go on to be a feared shooter and manage Dynamite Kid in Stampede Wrestling. Though if that's the only place you know John Foley from, then you won't have a high opinion of him.
John Foley was a legit bad ass shooter for most of his career, who was known to take liberties with guys. By the time he got to Stampede Wrestling, though, he was an old timer who was more known as a drunk who everyone ribbed. One story suggests where he lost his nerve, and that would be the time he was being a little too physical in the ring with Lanny and Randy Poffo, prompting their dad Angelo came to the ring, and all 3 Poffo men beat the living shit out of Foley. Bret Hart says he "never lived it down."
Billy says the best match he ever saw was a "friendly" sparring contest between Jack Dempsey and John Foley that left both men with black eyes, broken noses and blood coming out of their ears and mouths. Billy says they were still close friends after.
Billy calls shoot fighting/grappling "physical chess," and he spent 12 years learning this at Reilly's Gym, also known as the Snake Pit.
Billy learned "catch-as-catch-can" (or Greco-Roman) wrestling in The Snake Pit from Charlie Carrol.
Charlie Carrol was 55 years old and 155 pounds to Billy's 6 foot 2, 190 pound 17 year old, but Charlie hurt Billy every single time they sparred. Billy says that Charlie kept him humble.
Billy puts over modern MMA fighters but says the best modern MMA fighter couldn't hold a candle to a mediocre 1930s catch wrestler.
It's not a long book, but a significant section early on is just Billy going over the history of catch fighting and amateur wrestling all the way back to the 1800s. He complains that modern amateur wrestling is all about power and maneuvering for points and says he doesn't even watch the Olympics anymore. It's actually super fascinating as he details various amature techniques used in different Olympic competitions and where they originated from.
He tells a story of how when he was a teenager, his coach Billy Riley (who was 55 years old) would walk with him down the street and often try to grapple with Billy or show him some maneuver right there and Billy says people would stare at them like they were homosexuals and says it was so embarrassing. At the time, homosexuality was illegal in England.
Billy Robinson is critical of modern coaching, which he says consists of the coach giving a ton of positive feedback. Billy Robinson won multiple amature championship tournaments and bouts but never heard a good word from Billy Riley. When Billy Robinson won his first amature world title, he remembered Riley saying, "That was good." Riley would later explain that it wasn't his job to tell Robinson what was good, but it was his job to tell Robinson what was wrong and where he can correct himself. Interesting take on coaching.
In 1956, Billy placed 3rd at the nationals for amature wrestling. In 1957, he won the nationals tournament! Riley told Billy Robinson, "You've won all the cups and the medals. Why don't you take me out and buy me a steak dinner?" When Billy Robinson said he couldn't afford to, Riley said to him, "It just goes to show you kid, you can't buy steak with medals. It's time you turned pro."
Billy says he regrets not putting pro wrestling off another couple of years. He thinks he should have been amature wrestling in the Olympics. He beat everyone who eventually wrestled on the Brittish team, and he thought he could have won a medal.
Billy turned pro at 19 years old and was asked to help get pro wrestling going in Sweden. The problem was that the Sweden Olympic amature wrestling team wouldn't allow it unless the pros proved they were legit and could beat them in an amateur contest. Billy beat them all, including Alex Gronburg, a 2 time Olympic champion and former world champion, and Gosta Andersson, who quit after a minute, saying, "Hey, it's too dangerous for us."
Billy Robinson asked to go to Spain and wrestle for a new promotion, but as he was getting ready to leave, his coach Billy Riley warned him that if he worked for that company he would be black balled out of most major European wrestling companies. Robinson told Riley that he had given his word, and he said this was the first time he ever went against Riley's suggestion.
It didn't matter because Billy said the Spain promotion fizzled out before he even got there, but no one told him, and he flew to Spain for no reason.
He ended up staying in Spain, living with someone Billy referred to as "the English professor" who introduced him to people like Earnist Hemmingway and Sophia Loren and got Billy work in a movie
One day, the professor told Billy that his name was in the newspaper, and sure enough, Billy was being advertised in a new wrestling promotion. When Billy called them, he was informed that they had a job for him. For 2 years, 1960-1961, Billy wrestled in Spain and made a name for himself.
Billy would wrestle in tournaments and other tours during this time as well, in places like Germany and Belgium.
It was at these tournaments when Billy started noticing guys wanting to train with him and only him. Billy days. "It was odd!"
Billy loved zoos and had opinions on the good ones. He says he could spend all day just watching gorillas
Billy says he didn't like France much, saying that compared to places like Germany, Switzerland, and Austria, France was pretty dirty and gross back then.
Billy seems to have loved Lebanon the most, and being a huge history buff, Billy goes on a tangent about the history of Lebanon.
Billy wrestled in India in 1962, and on the way back, he stopped in Lebabon right before a war broke out, and he had to quickly escape.
Billy says his father told him that he should pretend to not know English and not be identified as an English speaking person. He said this advice helped him his while life while traveling.
The first time Billy got to India, he was shocked at the poverty and state of it. He remembers seeing dead animals all over the place and people sleeping in the streets among rats. Billy also puts over India and a big wrestling country and said he had a good time there.
Billy says he was fortunate to wrestle the original Dara Singh. Dara Singh was a huge name in India, and he eventually went to prison for killing 3 men. He did it because those 3 men killed his brother, so it was a revenge killing. Years later, he would be pardoned and released. This is when Billy beat him in India.
In India, it was legitimately against the law for a Muslim to wrestle against a Hindu, so the Muslim community "adopted" Billy Robinson as their guy to fight the Hundu guys. It's pretty fascinating imo.
After India, Billy wrestled in Napal and said he had a great time, even wrestling private matches for the King of Napal.
While in Napal, Billy was ribbed into approaching a live leopard and says it was the first time in his life that he ever felt fear.
Billy even helped some Americans set up a play for the King of Napal, where Billy was the stage manager and even took a couple of bumps on the hard wood floor. He says the King loved it so much that he called for an encore, so Billy had to do the painful bump again.
Billy recalls one time in Napal, a local accidently hit and killed a cow with his truck. Since cows were sacred, the man was killed right there, and his body hung from a lamppost.
While in Germany wrestling a tournament that was cross promoting with a ten pin bowling competition, Billy met his future wife Ursula. She was working on the bowling side and Billy on the wrestling side. Billy says when their eyes first locked, he was in the ring, and she was in the front row. Billy says, "It was the beginning of the end, for my single days." 18 months later she came to England and they got married.
Billy says he played some charity bowling games against the Beatles in the early 60s.
Dave Ruhl was an extremely popular face in Stampede Wrestling out of Calgary, and through his uncle Ray Steele, Dave got ahold of Billy and invited him to Calgary Billy says Stampede promoter Stu Hart saw Billy wrestle one match and then invite Billy to come to Stampede Wrestling.
While backstage at one of his first Stampede shows, he saw a bunch of big gues in the dressing room talking. Through eavesdropping, he heard them talking about football and asked them if they were wrestlers or football players. They said football players, and so Billy insisted they leave the dressing room. Things got tense and heated, but eventually, Billy made it clear that if they didn't leave, he would remove them. He says they all scurried out of the room and notes that one of them was a young Wayne Coleman, the future "Superstar" Billy Graham.
After reading Billy Graham's book, it's clear that these two fucking hated eachother, with Graham calling Billy a bully who took liberties with less experienced guys in the ring. In Graham's book, he details how poorly Robinson treated him when their paths crossed in Stampede Wrestling. Graham's book made no mention of Billy kicking him out of a locker room nor the supposed contract with Verne that forbade Robinson from hurting Graham.
Down the line when Billy came to Minnesota, Billy Robinson claimes that Billy Graham insisted that Verne write up a contract that prohibited Billy Robinson and Billy Graham from squaring up. I don't know the validity of this claim, but Billy Robinson says Billy Graham was so scared that he only came to Minnesota with the guarantee that Robinson wouldn't hurt him.
This claim about a contract and Graham refusing to work with Robinson, might come from the time in Minnesota when Graham opted out of working with him in favor of Wahoo McDaniel. One time they were matched up and Graham approached Robinson backstage and made a show of wrapping razor blades in his taped up hands, warning Robinson that if he attempted to shoot on him, that Graham would "shred you from your face to the tip of your toes." This is all from Graham's book, with Billy making no mention of it.
In Bruce Hart's book, he tells a story about how they had The Stomper penciled in to challenge NWA World Champion Dory Funk Jr, but they had The Stomper face Billy Robinson 2 weeks prior. The two meshed so poorly that it devolved into an ugly shoot, with the fans chanting boring at them. Eventually The Stomper left and got counted out, before getting to the back and telling Stu he is quitting. They had no choice but to put Robinson in his place, and while the match was amazing and Robinson would be a good face for Stampede at the time, even Bruce calls him a bully and finishes it by saying "here's not to you Mr Robinson, there is no place in Heaven for those who prey."
After Billy wrestled Dory Funk Jr in an 1 hour draw, and after Dory invited Billy to the States to wrestle.
Before heading over to the States full time, Billy did tours in England, Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong and Australia where he won the World title for a company that Jim Barnett was promoting.
Billy met Jack Brisco in Australia, shortly after winning the world title there. Billy remembers there first match together, saying that Jack was trying to show off a little too much so Billy said he showed him a simple catch hold that put poor Jack in the hospital for a couple days! Billy says the 2 became friends and calls him a good amateur wrestler and great guy.
Jack Brisco was the one who first told Billy about "shoot wrestlers" in the States. Billy never heard the term before but says a shooter is just another word for catch wrestling.
Billy mentions a rib that Jack Brisco and Dick Murdoch played on him during that Australia tour. Dick introduced Billy to chewing tobacco and purposely misinformed Billy on how to enjoy it. Billy swallowed the juice and vomiting all over the place.
Another time, Jack and Billy were up in Billy's hotel room all night, talking holds and even practicing them on one another. It was middle of the night, so Billy was in his underwear when Jack asked him to go get the newspaper from down the hall. The second Billy got in the hallway, Jack locked him out and made Billy sneak back to his room a few floors up in just his boxers. Billy said this was the nicest hotel in Australia, too.
Billy says he got his first taste of American pro wrestling in Hawaii, where he wrestled for several months. Every single guy who writes a wrestling book inevitably ends up doing a tour in Hawaii.
It was in Hawaii where Billy met Verne Gagne, who was "wrestling" a tour there, but really, Verne was on vacation and wrestling as a means to vacation for free. A lot of guys did that with Hawaii back in the day.
Billy and Verne wrestled a tag team match together, and after Verne made sure to watch how Billy was as a singles wrestler. Verne asked Billy to come back to the mainland in 1972.
Verne even asked Billy to train his son Greg, and they ended up inviting several other guys to a small wrestling camp. The group consisted of Verne's son Greg, Ric Flair, Ken Patera, Jim Bunzell (who would later team with Ken in AWA and be one half of the Killer Bee's in the WWE), Bob Bruggers (a former Miami Dophins linebacker), and Hossien Khosrow Vaziri (the future Iron Shiek).
An infamous story happened at this camp, early on, Shiek was the only one of the 6 who had amateur experience, and one day he was boasting to the others about how neither Verne or Billy could get him on his back in an amateur bout. Billy heard about this and challenged him immediately to spar. Shiek was successful in holding his stance on his knees, with Billy unable to turn him. So Billy viciously dropped his knee into Shiek's thigh, fucking him up bad. Then Billy casually rolled Shiek over and said "told you I could flip you."
Billy acknowledges Sheik as a very good amateur but says he has a big head a big mouth. He knew Shiek wasn't familiar with catch-as-catch-can, ankle submissions, neck cranks or double wristlocks and took advantage of him. Billy just casually says "I knelt on his thigh in a way we do. He couldn't walk for two days and couldn't work out at the camp for two weeks."
Billy remembers a match he did early on working for Verne, where a fan in the front row was being obnoxious and screaming at Billy all match. After the bout, Billy went and picked the fan up out of his seat and smacked him a few times and notes how the fan stayed quiet the rest of the show. When he got to the back he was chewed our by Verne who was afraid of a lawsuit. Billy says the fan ended up getting tickets to a future show.
In the middle of the book he goes on a rant about the history of how wrestling started in carnival tents and how champions made money. He calls Gorgeous George a "carnie wrestler" and credits him for accelerating the change in how the general audience looks at pro wrestlers. He resents the sentiment that all wrestlers are showmanship guys and puts over himself and others like Lou Thesz as legit tough guys. Billy is always putting over his skills as catch fighter in the book.
Billy says he and Lou Thesz became pretty good friends.
Billy says Lou Thesz would call Ed "Strangler" Louis as the best wrestler of all time, while Billy says he would call Billy Joyce the best of all time. But he says that Billy Joyce said that George Gregory was the best of all time.
Billy describes one time he wrestled Verne Gagne with Lou Thesz as the special referee. Billy says that he and Verne weren't getting along at this point, so throughout the match, Billy was sorta abusing Verne and taunting him the whole time. Billy says he kept turning to Lou and saying "Look at this Lou!" And "What do you think of this Lou?" As he took advantage of Verne. Eventually Lou piped up and said, "Jesus Billy, take it easy on him, he is the boss."
Ed "Strangler" Louise had an "open" contract, meaning that if you were matched up against him and wanted to shoot, Ed encouraged it. What a badass.
John Pesek was a wrestler with legit Olynpic credentials. John Pesek decided to shoot on Ed Lewis when Ed was very sick and had boils all over. It was a hard fight but Ed won. Lou Thesz resented Pesek for attempting this and even had him black balled by the NWA later in his career. Lou never forgave John for shooting on Ed when Ed was sick and never admitted Pesek was talented in any way. Billy clarifies that John Pesek was legitimate in the ring and tells this story as a way to show Lou Thesz power back in those days.
Ben Assirati was a freakishly strong guy who was known as a legit street fighter. Billy says he was a masochist who not only liked to hurt people in the ring, but also liked to get hurt, himself. Ben Assirati tried to start a rival promotion in England, and was challenged to a legitimate shoot fight by promoters (and world class ass kickers) George Gregory and Billy Joyce, but Ben turned them down. Of course, when Lou Thesz was NWA Champion and touring through England, Ben made a big show of challenging him beforehand and even got the newspapers to print about it. On the night of the show, Lou had police block the entrance and not let Ben in the arena. Billy tells this story as if Lou was turning down Ben's challenge for the way he turned down Gregory and Joyce. But Billy really puts over Ben Assirati as a scary guy in the ring and says that people actually died in the ring with Ben. Wild claim that I couldn't back up online, though there are a ton of stories to speak on Ben's notorioty in the ring.
In Lou Thesz memoir, he stated that he challenged Ben first multiple times and Ben refused all of them
Billy says that when he first got to the States, Lou Thesz and Karl Gotch were close friends who respected one another. But something happened that led to the two refusing to speak to one another.
Billy says a lot of old timers were hot heads, and gives an example of when his son was born. Billy named him Spencer after Winston Churchill, but Karl Gotch got angry at this and said it should have been a powerful name like Thor or something silly. Billy says that he and Karl nearly came to blows in the street over this. So whatever fractured the relationship between Gotch and Thesz, it was probably minor and petty.
When talking about modern wrestlers, Billy always refers to them in quotations. Like in his book he says "pro wrestlers" as if he is air quoting when talking about modern guys.
Billy says a big difference between wrestling in America vs England was how much guys talked in the ring in America (called spots). Billy says this never happens over seas and says he didn't call spots verbally.
Another big difference is how pay structure worked. In America it was all based on the house and what the promoter felt you earned. Over seas, Billy says he and the promoter would sit alone and discuss the pay prior to the match. Ticket sales were irrelevant, you always got paid what you agreed to. He says America is where all the backstabbing and politicking started in wrestling.
Billy says Danny Hodge was probably one of the most dangerous guys from his time wrestling and puts him over as one ofthe greatest American wrestlers ever.
Billy describes an interesting concept for wrestling promoters back in his day. Every promoter had what he called a "policman" wrestler. When a new guy came in and wanted to challenge the top draw, he would face this "policman" wrestler as the top draw or promoter watched closely. For example, if you were looking to challenge Lou Thesz, first you would face Ray Steele as Thesz watched and judged, then after he and Ray would talk about the guy together.
While working for Verne Gagne in the early 70s, Billy was asked to wrestle with a green as grass guy and Verne told Billy to go 10 minutes before he beat him. This baffled Billy and Verne had to explain its a taping and they need to put on a good show. Billy says he shouldn't have done that, especially considering how Verne would go on to screw with Billy's payoffs down the line.
Billy says he took the kid down at the 9 minute mark and stretched him, nearly breaking his elbow as he screamed and cried and tapped out. Billy says the guy gave an interview later and said pro wrestling is the nastiest and most dangerous sport there is. Billy chuckles at this but he took some rookie and killed any interest the kid had in wrestling while abusing him.
Billy tells a wild story about a short real fight he had with Peter Maivia in Japan. Billy, Peter and a few other guys were eating at a restaurant when Peter got upset at how the menu and ordering system worked. Peter got so worked up that Billy yelled at him to calm down. Later as Billy was walking towards his hotel, a drunk Peter Maivia approached Billy looking for a fight. Billy attempted to restrain him, telling Peter as he held him, "Peter stop it. I don't want to hurt you." But Peter in his enraged, drunken state goes to bite Billy in the neck! Billy, having been trained in self defense and combat like this, knew to tuck his chin to save his neck, but Peter still bit down hard and into Billy's face! Billy says he still had scars from this 40 or 50 years later! When blood started pouring down Billy's cheek, he snapped and laid out Peter with an unspecified number of strikes that left Peter with a broken nose and two black eyes. He says the fight lasted all of 15 seconds. Billy says he had to go to the hospital to get stitches and shot for a human bite.
The next morning, Billy nearly kicked Peter's door down and told Peter he is lucky to be alive. Billy points out how biting the neck is an attempt to kill him, so he gives Peter a chance to try again. A very sober Peter backed down immediately
Billy says he saw an interview on Tv where The Rock claimed that Peter Maivia bit Billy's eye out and he needed surgery. Billy refutes this claim and says the only eye surgery he ever had was when he was a kid.
Billy says a lot of guys would spar once or train once with someone and then spend their whole career saying they were trained by that person. He gave an example of one time, Bill Watts called him up asking about Johnny Eagles, who said he trained at Billy's gym. Billy had a good laugh because Eagles stopped by his gym one time to borrow money.
Billy often goes on tangents or rants about bullies and how much he hates them. He calls them cowards who always back down when challenged. I guess that's why he doesn't see himself as a bully, while almost everyone who came up after him clarifies him as the biggest bully they ever met. I've read several, several dozen wrestling book, and only 1 guy didn't have anything bad to say about Billy. That was Dynamite Kid, who didn't have anything nice to say about Billy either. He was just the only guy to bring up Billy Robinson and not rant about how awful of a person he was.
If the only guy to not have a negative story about you in Dynamite Kid, then you may be an asshole imo.
Billy says he was AWA World Heavyweight Champion for 24 hours "until they changed the decision on me." I'm not a big AWA buff so if anyone knows this story I would like to hear it.
Billy briefly mentions the Gagne produced movie in 1974 movie, "The Wrestler" but unfortunately Billy has no tales from the set or stories about it at all. Billy alongside Dusty Rhodes and Dick Murdoch all appeared in the film.
One time while in Alberta wrestling for Stampede, Billy was invited along with a couple other wrestlers to have dinner with the Primier of Alberta (like a State Governor) and at the event Billy was asked to join the premieres wife in the morning. So when the wife reminded Billy about coming by at 8am the next morning, Billy used British slang in response and said "Yes, I'll come knock you up at 8 o'clock tomorrow." Poor Billy had to explain that where he's from, someone waking you up in the morning by knocking on your door is a knocker upper.
Billy calls Canadian wrestler George Gordienko the strongest wrestler he ever got in the ring with. George Gordienko was originally hoping to be a doctor before becoming an exceptionally successful wrestler and someone who Lou Thesz once called one of the best of all time. Gordienko has been lost to time for the most part since he was banned from the United States during the McCarthy era. George married a woman who was the head of a communist party in America and poor George never got to return. He continued to wrestle in the UK until a bad ankle injury forced him to retire. He pivoted again and became a pretty succesful artist. Super fascinating story imo.
Over in Japan, Karl Gotch was working for Giant Baba in the Japan Pro Wrestling Alliance and their competition, the International Wrestling Enterprise contacted Billy Riley and asked who was the best catch wrestler available to counter Gotch, who was doing big business for JWA. Riley immediately suggested Robinson, who was quickly invited to Japan for the IWE.
Karl and Billy were friends but working for rival promotions in Japan, so they could only meet and get together in secret.
Billy ended up winning the World title for the IWE and they asked him to move his family to Japan long-term.
Billy wasn't having a good time coaching the young Japanese guys and complained to Karl Gotch that it seems like their minds are elsewhere. Karl advised Billy to hurt one of them to get them in line. Billy refused and said he was their coach, he wasn't supposed to hurt them. This is wild to hear from Billy, who's entire reputation among the next generation was that he was a bully who liked to hurt people.
A week later Billy got caught in a snowstorm after fighting with his wife, so he was in a bad mood as he walked into the gym to train the young guys. One of them mouthed off so Billy says he lined them all up and wrestled each of them into submission. He calls it an accident, bit says he ended up breaking one of their arms that day and after that all the young guys took everything more seriously and treated Billy with more respect and admiration.
Billy seems to have mixed feelings on his time in Japan since he did well and early on was treated well by promoters. He said in Japan if you have something someone needs, you're a God in their eyes and your treated as such. He says if you need something from someone though, they always make it clear that they are in charge and treat you poorly. He says he and Karl both started to really resent the culture there towards the end of their runs in Japan.
It was after or near the end of his Japan tour that Billy and his wife got divorced. He doesn't expand on it in any way in his book. Barely gets a passing mention.
In the mid-70s Billy was in rough shape, his drinking was out of control and his knee was beyond fucked. Billy started working odd jobs outside the wrestling business, including a security job gig in Las Vegas where he was training other security guards and he managed a gas station in Minnesota. Billy calls this the lowest point of his life and says the gas station job was the most boring thing he ever did in his life.
Antonio Inoki contacted Billy when he was running the gas station and invited him to Japan for a big celebration show where they would have a match. Billy doesn't speak highly of the match and says he just had knee surgery and could barely get in the ring, but if you look up reports on his 1975 match with Inoki, all you see is massive, massive praise and people calling it one of the best matches ever at the time.
Billy calls Inoki the best Japanese wrestler of all time.
Yuko Miyato of The Union of Wrestling Forces International (UWFI) contacted Billy and sent him to Nashville to train guys to go to Japan for them and Billy says between himself and Karl Gotch, every wrestler they trained went on to be world champions. Billy lists Shigeo Miyato and Nobuhiko Takada as examples.
Billy says Yuko Miyato "really saved me." Billy says he was drinking excessively and gained a ton of weight after the divorce, and that his knees and hips had to be replaced. Billy says his nervous system was fucked up from all the years of grappling and he couldn't effectively train anymore. He got a 2nd life back in Japan and even became the head coach at his old Snake Pit gym after Riley passed away in 1977. Billy says he ended spending 15 years in Japan training the next generation of catch/mma fighters.
Billy talks about the difference in training Japanese guys compared to others, since Japanese guys are more scientific and teach techniques down to the specificity. Billy didn't teach like that, he taught concepts and ideas that anyone could use on anyone else. He struggled to get some guys over the "belt system" in Japan where a brown belt guy would never challenge a black belt guys. Billy says anyone can beat the best, regardless of their belt.
Near the end of the book, Billy again rants about modern guys and how they know one or two moves and consider themselves catch style wrestlers. Billy also rants again about bullies and how you don't train people by taking advantage of them. (Tell that to Iron Sheik) Billy cites Verne Gagne as an example of a guy who didn't know how to spar or lock in submissions, and would train guys by exhausting them before he jumped on them and shot for a hold. Billy says he and Karl Gotch resented that and made sure their training camps were the opposite of that. It's funny because Billy literally did this stuff with Verne Gagne! Maybe he is implying that he learned then not to that stuff, but he doesn't outright say it. Billy as as guilty of bullying as the Verne imo.
Billy thinks modern MMA is shooting themselves in the foot for not having pinfalls. He says that fighting off your back is exciting and opens the door for more to be done. He says that when a guy is trying not to get pinned, he may leave an opening somewhere for the other guy to take advantage of.
Billy complains how modern boxers are looking for knockouts and training to knock people out. He says that's not how it's done, you fight and wait for the opening, Billy says you wait for the knockout to come to you, you don't go looking for it. He laments the same thing in submissions as well, saying you don't go looking to lock in a submission, you maneuver around and wait for the opening to present itself. You wait for the submission to come to you. He is extremely critical of modern "catch style" wrestlers/ fighters.
Billy is critical of modern wrestling and fighting having such short time limits, saying that short 2 or 3 minute rounds means that it's all about power.
The book ends with Billy ranting about modern fighters and amateur wrestlers and how Catch wrestling was the greatest sport of all time. I hope I love something as much as Billy loved catch-as-catch-can wrestling.
Billy passed away 1 year after this book came out, and it's said he died peacefully in his sleep.