My upper back becomes tingley
r/holdmyteeth
2016.11.08 23:09 sgderp87 r/holdmyteeth
/holdmybeer for the elderly.
2012.02.24 00:31 TransVoice: Share, Constructively Criticize, and Have fun!
A place to share your transgender vocal training related recordings for constructive criticism by the community
2015.01.09 03:17 ThanatosConsumed The Pedo File: Death Eaters Exposed
"Perverts, Sadists, and Pedos in my upper class?!" It's more likely than you think.
2024.05.21 18:18 fab_71 Faith build region locked progression tips
Hey everyone,
in preparation for the DLC i am doing a region locked (well, rather a softlocked) play through with a faith character.
My goal is that once i leave a region, i cannot go back there, but becoming as strong as possible with the stuff available. Since it's been a while since i played ER (or a faith build in From games in general), i thought i'd ask for some tips.
What are some Weapons, Incantations, Talismans and other items one shouldn't miss in each region for a faith (with a small side of str) build?
Also, what region progression is best suited for faith characters?
I started as Confessor and am almost through Limgrave. In Liurnia i plan to pick up the sword of night and flame, and move on to the blasphemous blade later on, but i think these two are obvious.
I really appreciate any advice :)
submitted by fab_71 to EldenRingBuilds [link] [comments]
in preparation for the DLC i am doing a region locked (well, rather a softlocked) play through with a faith character.
My goal is that once i leave a region, i cannot go back there, but becoming as strong as possible with the stuff available. Since it's been a while since i played ER (or a faith build in From games in general), i thought i'd ask for some tips.
What are some Weapons, Incantations, Talismans and other items one shouldn't miss in each region for a faith (with a small side of str) build?
Also, what region progression is best suited for faith characters?
I started as Confessor and am almost through Limgrave. In Liurnia i plan to pick up the sword of night and flame, and move on to the blasphemous blade later on, but i think these two are obvious.
I really appreciate any advice :)
2024.05.21 18:17 Lower-Resident8807 I (25M) and my wife (26F) think are marriage is going downhill with our 2 recent big arguments -how do I handle the situation?
Throughout our marriage, my partner and I have not had many big arguments or problems. We generally get along well and quickly get over small disagreements. I would say we have a fairly normal relationship, with nothing to hide from each other and 100% trust. We only have each other and do everything together.
**First Argument:**
Recently, we started trying new things and becoming more outgoing. My partner just started a new job and loves her coworkers. Her workplace has a volleyball team that plays for fun every week. We were never involved in extracurricular activities at work or school, so this was new and exciting for us, especially for her, as she had always wanted to do sports and finally found a group she enjoyed being around. I was happy for her because, for the longest time, we had been trying to find something she would enjoy doing.
During the first week, we had such a blast that we decided to participate every week. The second week, she was really looking forward to it, but it coincided with my sister's graduation. I expected the day to be dedicated to the graduation, with a plan to attend the ceremony and then go out to eat with the family (this was not discussed, but I assumed it would be better to focus on the graduation and didn't even consider volleyball).
Right before we left for the ceremony, my partner told me she was putting on her volleyball shorts under her dress so we could play volleyball right after the ceremony and then go to dinner. This is where the tension started. I felt that since the schedule was tight, we shouldn't try to squeeze in volleyball and told her there was always next week. I also dislike being late and keeping people waiting, even though it was at a buffet. She said she wanted to go and that the buffet wasn't that important.
I thought squeezing in volleyball for even 15 minutes was too much. We were both angry, but we agreed to go to volleyball for a bit, even though it was just for 15 minutes. I told her I wasn't going to play because I wasn't dressed for it and was too mad to see anyone, so I just sat at the bar. Fifteen minutes turned into 30, and I called her, telling her we had to go because we were already late and I was really hungry. We made it to the buffet, but when we got home, we started to discuss what happened.
We argued, and she told me she still felt she was right and that I was overreacting. She said I didn't care about her happiness and that she had finally found something she loved doing. I argued that it was ridiculous to try and squeeze volleyball in after the ceremony and then be late to the buffet by 30 minutes. She started crying, and we went back and forth. This was the first time she filled out and printed divorce papers for me to look at. We had fights before where we discussed whether we were right for each other because we thought differently about certain situations, but it had never escalated to divorce papers. We talked it out some more, made up, and put the argument behind us.
**Second Argument:**
We recently purchased a house and agreed to let my 24M cousin live in one of our extra rooms. He pays us rent, and we felt bad for him since he didn't have parents and had been living alone before moving in with us. Also, the rent would help with the mortgage. Though he can be an idiot at times, he is on good terms with both my wife and me. He is almost the perfect tenant: clean, organized, and respectful. However, he has an eating habit he is unaware of and no one has told him about.
He tends to eat things and leave one piece for someone else to finish and clean up after him, or he eats too much, not leaving enough food for my wife and me. Whenever I catch him doing this, I remind him that other people live in the house too and he cannot eat so much at once. He tends to skip breakfast and lunch, so he gets very hungry by dinner and eats whatever he can find. I have had this talk with him a few times, and he understands he has a problem, but it's not the end of the world. Meanwhile, my wife is growing more frustrated with him but doesn't say anything, slowly distancing herself from him.
Yesterday was the day of the argument. My cousin said he would cook for us, and I told my wife on the phone that he was cooking. He went out to get groceries, but my wife didn't want to eat his food due to the growing tension with him. We feel he doesn't buy enough groceries for himself, but when we confront him, he tries to cook for us and scrambles to buy groceries because he feels bad. My wife got home from work, and I prepared some food for dinner, just enough for us two and maybe my cousin since he was out buying groceries for all of us. We had agreed to start making less food so my cousin would not eat so much at dinner, kind of portioning for him.
My wife prepared two bowls of what I was cooking and did not put out a portion for my cousin. She said to not make one as a message that we are not cooking for him anymore. I told her that would be awkward and suggested preparing a small bowl for him so it wouldn't be awkward when he got back since he was out and expected to be cooking for us. I think it is kind of cruel, even though he has upset us with his habit. She thinks it's okay and that she is right. After that, we went on a walk and argued like the last time. She said her job was to worry about her husband and not another man. and then told me that if I was so worried about him getting a bowl why didnt I make one for him? She has been upset with my cousin about his eating habits and other annoying things, and this was her way of telling him we are not cooking for him anymore. I argued that I would have handled it differently to make it less awkward, like preparing a small bowl and then talking to him afterward about buying his own groceries and not cooking for us anymore from now on. She again stated that she was right, also bringing up the last argument and saying I'm overreacting and making it more than it is and that even if I got up and tried to make him a bowl she would be mad at me too because she valued our dinner time together(even though it would have been a quick thing to do, but I backed down because afraid I would upset her) and said that I always try to be the nice and decent person while she is always the bad person.
I feel stuck in the middle because I'm always the mediator in these arguments and feel like our arguments are always at this level of intensity. How do I handle these types of arguments?
submitted by Lower-Resident8807 to relationship_advice [link] [comments]
**First Argument:**
Recently, we started trying new things and becoming more outgoing. My partner just started a new job and loves her coworkers. Her workplace has a volleyball team that plays for fun every week. We were never involved in extracurricular activities at work or school, so this was new and exciting for us, especially for her, as she had always wanted to do sports and finally found a group she enjoyed being around. I was happy for her because, for the longest time, we had been trying to find something she would enjoy doing.
During the first week, we had such a blast that we decided to participate every week. The second week, she was really looking forward to it, but it coincided with my sister's graduation. I expected the day to be dedicated to the graduation, with a plan to attend the ceremony and then go out to eat with the family (this was not discussed, but I assumed it would be better to focus on the graduation and didn't even consider volleyball).
Right before we left for the ceremony, my partner told me she was putting on her volleyball shorts under her dress so we could play volleyball right after the ceremony and then go to dinner. This is where the tension started. I felt that since the schedule was tight, we shouldn't try to squeeze in volleyball and told her there was always next week. I also dislike being late and keeping people waiting, even though it was at a buffet. She said she wanted to go and that the buffet wasn't that important.
I thought squeezing in volleyball for even 15 minutes was too much. We were both angry, but we agreed to go to volleyball for a bit, even though it was just for 15 minutes. I told her I wasn't going to play because I wasn't dressed for it and was too mad to see anyone, so I just sat at the bar. Fifteen minutes turned into 30, and I called her, telling her we had to go because we were already late and I was really hungry. We made it to the buffet, but when we got home, we started to discuss what happened.
We argued, and she told me she still felt she was right and that I was overreacting. She said I didn't care about her happiness and that she had finally found something she loved doing. I argued that it was ridiculous to try and squeeze volleyball in after the ceremony and then be late to the buffet by 30 minutes. She started crying, and we went back and forth. This was the first time she filled out and printed divorce papers for me to look at. We had fights before where we discussed whether we were right for each other because we thought differently about certain situations, but it had never escalated to divorce papers. We talked it out some more, made up, and put the argument behind us.
**Second Argument:**
We recently purchased a house and agreed to let my 24M cousin live in one of our extra rooms. He pays us rent, and we felt bad for him since he didn't have parents and had been living alone before moving in with us. Also, the rent would help with the mortgage. Though he can be an idiot at times, he is on good terms with both my wife and me. He is almost the perfect tenant: clean, organized, and respectful. However, he has an eating habit he is unaware of and no one has told him about.
He tends to eat things and leave one piece for someone else to finish and clean up after him, or he eats too much, not leaving enough food for my wife and me. Whenever I catch him doing this, I remind him that other people live in the house too and he cannot eat so much at once. He tends to skip breakfast and lunch, so he gets very hungry by dinner and eats whatever he can find. I have had this talk with him a few times, and he understands he has a problem, but it's not the end of the world. Meanwhile, my wife is growing more frustrated with him but doesn't say anything, slowly distancing herself from him.
Yesterday was the day of the argument. My cousin said he would cook for us, and I told my wife on the phone that he was cooking. He went out to get groceries, but my wife didn't want to eat his food due to the growing tension with him. We feel he doesn't buy enough groceries for himself, but when we confront him, he tries to cook for us and scrambles to buy groceries because he feels bad. My wife got home from work, and I prepared some food for dinner, just enough for us two and maybe my cousin since he was out buying groceries for all of us. We had agreed to start making less food so my cousin would not eat so much at dinner, kind of portioning for him.
My wife prepared two bowls of what I was cooking and did not put out a portion for my cousin. She said to not make one as a message that we are not cooking for him anymore. I told her that would be awkward and suggested preparing a small bowl for him so it wouldn't be awkward when he got back since he was out and expected to be cooking for us. I think it is kind of cruel, even though he has upset us with his habit. She thinks it's okay and that she is right. After that, we went on a walk and argued like the last time. She said her job was to worry about her husband and not another man. and then told me that if I was so worried about him getting a bowl why didnt I make one for him? She has been upset with my cousin about his eating habits and other annoying things, and this was her way of telling him we are not cooking for him anymore. I argued that I would have handled it differently to make it less awkward, like preparing a small bowl and then talking to him afterward about buying his own groceries and not cooking for us anymore from now on. She again stated that she was right, also bringing up the last argument and saying I'm overreacting and making it more than it is and that even if I got up and tried to make him a bowl she would be mad at me too because she valued our dinner time together(even though it would have been a quick thing to do, but I backed down because afraid I would upset her) and said that I always try to be the nice and decent person while she is always the bad person.
I feel stuck in the middle because I'm always the mediator in these arguments and feel like our arguments are always at this level of intensity. How do I handle these types of arguments?
2024.05.21 18:17 dudu1234556789 Constant popping and clicking in both arms
I’m in the process of getting checked out for a torn labrum in my left arm. I have had a lot of problems with my left arm and have had normal mris, xrays, ct scans that have all come back negative. I’ve tried physical therapy, chiro, acupuncture but none have worked. I hvent been able to work out any upper body or essentially be comfortable in my upper body for about 1.5 years now and im worried its starting in my right arm now and I’m not sure why. The popping occurs really constantly whenever I move my arm from a straight position to a different position or extending my arm. This occurs in the forearm, elbow and shoulder at varying times.
My current rehab is from a family friend who is a chiro who essentially said “my pec is too tight and my back isn’t strong enough” so he told me to stretch my pec first and then strengthen after. Its been about 3 weeks and i’ve only been doing stretching no strengthening for now. I’m worried I’m making it worse because since then I’m getting symptoms in my right arm i’ve never had before.
The 2 stretches i’m doing are the doorway stretch and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EswbusODZ7o.
During the doorway i feel like i get a good stretch but when i do the stretch behind the back, once i clasp and move my arms down, i hear a very distinct pulling/popping noise in my deltoid area, theres no pain but it is very uncomfortable to hear and it wasn’t happening before.
Another symptom that arose in my right arm is when I twist my arm by supinating and pronating my arm to the side of my body. Here I get a lot of popping in my forearm, shoulder, and even shoulder blade.
Finally, I’ve been told to work on my posture and bring my shoulders down and back more as apparently my chest is pulling my shoulders in which could have caused many of my symptoms. This has been present for a really long time but every time i pull my shoulder blades together i get a lot of cracking I feel in my cervical spine, kinda right in between my shoulder blades. Again no pain but just very constant. The pain is throughout my entire arm almost all the time, shoulder blade, elbow, forearm and i feel some of these symptoms coming on in my right arm now.
Sorry for the long /ranting post but its been getting very frustrating and seeing doctors/specialists have done nothing but waste time and a lot of money so far.
submitted by dudu1234556789 to overcominggravity [link] [comments]
My current rehab is from a family friend who is a chiro who essentially said “my pec is too tight and my back isn’t strong enough” so he told me to stretch my pec first and then strengthen after. Its been about 3 weeks and i’ve only been doing stretching no strengthening for now. I’m worried I’m making it worse because since then I’m getting symptoms in my right arm i’ve never had before.
The 2 stretches i’m doing are the doorway stretch and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EswbusODZ7o.
During the doorway i feel like i get a good stretch but when i do the stretch behind the back, once i clasp and move my arms down, i hear a very distinct pulling/popping noise in my deltoid area, theres no pain but it is very uncomfortable to hear and it wasn’t happening before.
Another symptom that arose in my right arm is when I twist my arm by supinating and pronating my arm to the side of my body. Here I get a lot of popping in my forearm, shoulder, and even shoulder blade.
Finally, I’ve been told to work on my posture and bring my shoulders down and back more as apparently my chest is pulling my shoulders in which could have caused many of my symptoms. This has been present for a really long time but every time i pull my shoulder blades together i get a lot of cracking I feel in my cervical spine, kinda right in between my shoulder blades. Again no pain but just very constant. The pain is throughout my entire arm almost all the time, shoulder blade, elbow, forearm and i feel some of these symptoms coming on in my right arm now.
Sorry for the long /ranting post but its been getting very frustrating and seeing doctors/specialists have done nothing but waste time and a lot of money so far.
2024.05.21 18:17 h1yale01 major test fail!!
hi everyone, i'm a student who just finished my five month CNA class at my local community college. I've already passed my knowledge exam and I just got back from taking my skills today.
I am pretty sure I failed and badly. I don’t think I forgot any of my steps but all this morning I was extremely nervous and anxious and I still was once I started the test. I was shaking like a lamb the entire time. My skills were emptying a catheter with ppe, giving a partial bedbath, and dressing a resident (volunteer).
As soon as I begin I forget to put my arms in my gown first and start tying the neck. The observer corrects me and lets me do it again, but she tells me to just not tie it and move on since she didn't want me to linger on that step for too long (I have a very hard time tying the gown in front of people). Then when I start to empty the bag I am already having trouble opening the lock and accidentally closed it again. While I’m fumbling with it little bits of the fluid are getting everywhere, so I'm like, great, I already failed.
I had thirty minutes for each skill and took exactly ten minutes for each. I didn't even realize how slow I was going until the observer started to point out the time to me, asking if I needed help, and telling me to move on to the next step before finishing. The whole time she was asking me if I was nervous.
I feel like I did each skill very badly and haphazardly. I felt like I did such a bad job that at the end I said aloud “It'll be a miracle if I pass.” By the way she answered it seemed at the very most she was uncertain if I would.
I am just looking for someone to help me ease my anxiety. Is there any chance I will still pass or were my gown and catheter mess-ups automatic fails? I would think so but I am honestly copium. I've put so much time into this class and was going to work at the nearby home this summer. I feel like I've wasted it and won’t have anything to do now. I am going to college for nursing. But I don’t even know now. The next available test for me would be at the end of this month three hours away. I feel like maybe this is a sign. I’ve already been worrying so much about if this is the work for me. If I can’t even pass this test, how will I become a nurse? Should I think about changing my major if I do fail?
Sorry for the long post. If anyone read this wall of text do you have any bad failing stories?
submitted by h1yale01 to cna [link] [comments]
I am pretty sure I failed and badly. I don’t think I forgot any of my steps but all this morning I was extremely nervous and anxious and I still was once I started the test. I was shaking like a lamb the entire time. My skills were emptying a catheter with ppe, giving a partial bedbath, and dressing a resident (volunteer).
As soon as I begin I forget to put my arms in my gown first and start tying the neck. The observer corrects me and lets me do it again, but she tells me to just not tie it and move on since she didn't want me to linger on that step for too long (I have a very hard time tying the gown in front of people). Then when I start to empty the bag I am already having trouble opening the lock and accidentally closed it again. While I’m fumbling with it little bits of the fluid are getting everywhere, so I'm like, great, I already failed.
I had thirty minutes for each skill and took exactly ten minutes for each. I didn't even realize how slow I was going until the observer started to point out the time to me, asking if I needed help, and telling me to move on to the next step before finishing. The whole time she was asking me if I was nervous.
I feel like I did each skill very badly and haphazardly. I felt like I did such a bad job that at the end I said aloud “It'll be a miracle if I pass.” By the way she answered it seemed at the very most she was uncertain if I would.
I am just looking for someone to help me ease my anxiety. Is there any chance I will still pass or were my gown and catheter mess-ups automatic fails? I would think so but I am honestly copium. I've put so much time into this class and was going to work at the nearby home this summer. I feel like I've wasted it and won’t have anything to do now. I am going to college for nursing. But I don’t even know now. The next available test for me would be at the end of this month three hours away. I feel like maybe this is a sign. I’ve already been worrying so much about if this is the work for me. If I can’t even pass this test, how will I become a nurse? Should I think about changing my major if I do fail?
Sorry for the long post. If anyone read this wall of text do you have any bad failing stories?
2024.05.21 18:16 Drafter2312 My Buddhist to Lutheran conversion story
Im (31M) an American but always rejected Christianity growing up, as i was forced to attend at a Presbyterian church despite my parents not even being diligent enough to have had me baptized (secular Presbyterian you might say?).
once i was an adult i broke away and didn't want anything to do with it but became fond of eastern religion after discovering Alan Watts. i think it was the ritual and reverence that drew me in. i was also extremely neurotic before becoming Buddhist so the practice of acceptance helped me a lot in my personal life. about a year ago i was approached by a Pentecostal missionary (his denomination was not made known to me at the time, nor did i have the theological knowledge to identify it in the beginning). He asked if i would be interested attending a bible study.
ive always been interested in history/philosophy so i took him up on his offer with the intention of just observing and getting a better understanding of how Christianity has impacted the world and guided the actions of our ancestors but no real intention on being converted.
fast forward 6 months and i had this really emotional dream, to which i woke up crying (i almost NEVER cry) with this feeling that all of my mistakes had been forgiven or that i was given a second chance at life. but that morning i repented and and accepted Jesus Christ as my savior.
at this point the missionary i was studying with said that i need to be baptized in water. "seems pretty straight forward." i thought, then he went on to say that i also need to be baptized in the holy spirit,, okay not really sure what that means. but i humor him until he tells me that i need to speak in tongues to go to Heaven. immediately this feels wrong. at this point i became interested in theology and determined this missionary was either Pentecostal or Assemblies of God. but he wouldn't openly claim any denomination.
At this point i suspended my bible studies and started just trying churches that were close to me going Sundays and Wednesdays. the first i tried was a ELCA Lutheran church down the road from me and everyone was so welcoming and kind. the church is relatively small and averages 70 or so members in attendance. and about 85% of them were likely over the age of 75. i continued to try about 4 other churches (non denominational, Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist) but the Lutheran church service was just so much more impactful. i loved the old reverent music, the liturgy, the fact that we actually READ from the bible instead of the pastor choosing 2 passages then spending an hour telling about some childhood story that's vaguely related to them.
after about a month of church searching the ELCA pastor was the only one that sought me out to see how my search was going. he proposed that i come for 3 services back to back before making my final decision and by that time i was sure i wanted to be a Lutheran.
i appreciate how patient you all have been in answering my questions prior to this and i am looking forward to my baptism in a couple weeks.
God bless and Peace be with you!
submitted by Drafter2312 to Lutheranism [link] [comments]
once i was an adult i broke away and didn't want anything to do with it but became fond of eastern religion after discovering Alan Watts. i think it was the ritual and reverence that drew me in. i was also extremely neurotic before becoming Buddhist so the practice of acceptance helped me a lot in my personal life. about a year ago i was approached by a Pentecostal missionary (his denomination was not made known to me at the time, nor did i have the theological knowledge to identify it in the beginning). He asked if i would be interested attending a bible study.
ive always been interested in history/philosophy so i took him up on his offer with the intention of just observing and getting a better understanding of how Christianity has impacted the world and guided the actions of our ancestors but no real intention on being converted.
fast forward 6 months and i had this really emotional dream, to which i woke up crying (i almost NEVER cry) with this feeling that all of my mistakes had been forgiven or that i was given a second chance at life. but that morning i repented and and accepted Jesus Christ as my savior.
at this point the missionary i was studying with said that i need to be baptized in water. "seems pretty straight forward." i thought, then he went on to say that i also need to be baptized in the holy spirit,, okay not really sure what that means. but i humor him until he tells me that i need to speak in tongues to go to Heaven. immediately this feels wrong. at this point i became interested in theology and determined this missionary was either Pentecostal or Assemblies of God. but he wouldn't openly claim any denomination.
At this point i suspended my bible studies and started just trying churches that were close to me going Sundays and Wednesdays. the first i tried was a ELCA Lutheran church down the road from me and everyone was so welcoming and kind. the church is relatively small and averages 70 or so members in attendance. and about 85% of them were likely over the age of 75. i continued to try about 4 other churches (non denominational, Baptist, Presbyterian, Methodist) but the Lutheran church service was just so much more impactful. i loved the old reverent music, the liturgy, the fact that we actually READ from the bible instead of the pastor choosing 2 passages then spending an hour telling about some childhood story that's vaguely related to them.
after about a month of church searching the ELCA pastor was the only one that sought me out to see how my search was going. he proposed that i come for 3 services back to back before making my final decision and by that time i was sure i wanted to be a Lutheran.
i appreciate how patient you all have been in answering my questions prior to this and i am looking forward to my baptism in a couple weeks.
God bless and Peace be with you!
2024.05.21 18:15 harinedzumi_art Solar Cult in the Nha-Dai Kingdom.
 | Solar Cult in the Nha-Dai Kingdom. submitted by harinedzumi_art to theSmall_World [link] [comments] "...With every breath, the air Spirits enter my lungs. With every step I take, the Spirits of paws communicate with the spirits of earth and water. Wherever I look, the Spirits of eyes see it too. When I die, the Spirits will leave the rotten meat and dirty bones. And then they will gather again, and the new me will be born. Don't worry about the dead, don't worry about the living! We are all just a temporary shell, nothing more! Penetrate into the Teaching and you will see the World beyond the shell..." © Linh Ai-Ca, Priestess who Achieved Full Understanding. An excerpt from Her teachings for those entering the Circle. Solar Cult has no analogues in the Small World. Like most of the religious, it's based on the ancient Teaching of the One Way created by the legendary White Hare Prophet. However, by completely changing the form and narrative, the Solar Cult kept all the ideas of the Prophet unchanged. Based on the antiquity of the Cult and the exorbitant complexity of its philosophy, many scientists of the Small World believe that the first priestesses were not followers, but associates of the White Hare. Therefore, modern followers of the White Hare's Teaching consider Solar Cult to be a part of the One Way. Solar Cult denies the existence of a God or other higher power capable of creating or influencing the World. It is believed that the World creates itself, and Spirits serve as the material for this. Since Spirits are not able to live in the World without having a form, they fill any form with themselves, and so life appears. Absolutely everything Alive, from stone [yes, according to the Cult, even stones are Alive] and up to sovereigns are essentially Spirits. Bodies are only a form, and are not capable of living by themselves. From this comes the most important statement of the Solar Cult. Awareness of one's own individual life is an illusion that hides the Truth. There is no real life and death. There is no real mind. And there is no real reasons to follow this illusions. Therefore, intentions and actions [exactly in this sequence] become the only important factors of the World's existence. Intentions unite Spirits, and actions strengthen this connection, and after the physical death of the shell, the same Spirits inhabit another. Any intentions and actions are preserved and developed. The Spirits of murderers inhabit new shells and give life to new murderers. The Spirits of healers give life to new healers. Etc. The main goal of the Solar Cult is to help all living beings realize their own essence and see the real World. This can be done only by avoiding any manifestations of selfishness [imposed by an illusory self] and doing good deeds without the intention of getting benefits for yourself. It is believed that any living being is able to achieve this without Solar Cult, so the Cult helps and teaches only those who have asked for it themselves. Yes, the Solar Sun is the most peaceful religion of the Small World. At the same time, Solar Cult accepts disciples of any nation, even without paying attention to their past. In addition, the Cult recognizes some other religions and teachings true. Therefore, for example, the Solar Cult is widespread among the Free Newts of the Swampland, who profess this along with the traditional Teaching of Heaven. More than a half gang leaders [and pretty same numbers for gang members] are desciples of the Teaching of Ten Thousand Solar Spirits and have their own priestess-teachers [in fact everyone can become a priestesses, even males, priestess is just a name, it has no gender] And rats, cats and gerbils, following the Teachings of the One Way, regularly make pilgrimages to Nha-Dai in order to listen to the Teachings of the priestesses. It was the Solar Cult that made the black-eyed foxes a unique nation. The intention to understand the real nature of the World, backed up by natural curiosity, made them open minded, friendly and supportive. In fact, the Nha-Dai Kingdom has been supplying everyone with the most valuable goods for hundreds of years with minimal benefit for itself. That is why so many volunteers came to help the black-eyed foxes in their fight against the Iron Caliphate. Alas, the centuries-long war has also affected the Cult. Since Mo'Gu aggressively impose the Cult of the Dead God and exterminate priestesses and disciples, they are recognized as enemies of the World. Therefore, the intention to fight and kill them is considered good. It is believed that the Spirits of warriors who died in this struggle give birth to warriors again. And after the final victory over Mo'Gu, these warriors will be reborn again and become priestesses. However, many priestesses [including the whole Circle of Priestesses] are already fighting against Mo'Gu. In fact, militarization has long been an integral part of the Cult. In all modern Solar Monasteries, cubs are taught the anatomy of lizards and trained to kill them effectively. Foreign military instructors [usually newts and rats from among the desciples] live in the same Monasteries, teaching future soldiers fighting techniques and tactics. But it is important to note that now all this is aimed at only one goal: the victory over Mo'Gu and the liberation of the Nha-Dai Kingdom from religious persecution. I want to believe that this will not change. |
2024.05.21 18:15 Specific_Wind8389 Is it possible to get rid of the sin of lust completely?
I fell again. I don't know what to do anymore. As a guy, the urges are just too strong. This has been my battle my whole life. I've been committing sexual sin at a very young age and it messed up my whole life to the point that I dropped out of college partly because of this sin. It badly affected me physically, mentally, and socially. I feel filthy. It's been the reason why I've been going back and forth in my faith.
A few moths ago, I recommitted my life to God and me committing the act got lessen but it still won't go away. I know it's a process. No one wakes up one day free from an addiction completely. But I feel like it's just getting worse and I don't think there's any way I could get rid of it completely.
I just wish I was normal. I wish I was numb and didn't feel any sexual urges. Sometimes I just want to cut my thing off just so I could stop sinning. Sometimes I say to God that this isn't gonna work and that I need a wife at this point since I know sex should be done inside of marriage and outside of it it's considered sexual immorality.
The worse is I can't feel any remorse or guilt anymore. It's like I'm becoming comfortable committing it every now and then because I know that God will forgive me anyway. I'm just so done but at the same time I don't want to give up. I don't want to go back to life I've lived living in complete disobedience to God. I don't want to go back to the most immoral, most dark, and hell life I lived. Atleast now I don't do it often but I just really want it to go away completely.
submitted by Specific_Wind8389 to TrueChristian [link] [comments]
A few moths ago, I recommitted my life to God and me committing the act got lessen but it still won't go away. I know it's a process. No one wakes up one day free from an addiction completely. But I feel like it's just getting worse and I don't think there's any way I could get rid of it completely.
I just wish I was normal. I wish I was numb and didn't feel any sexual urges. Sometimes I just want to cut my thing off just so I could stop sinning. Sometimes I say to God that this isn't gonna work and that I need a wife at this point since I know sex should be done inside of marriage and outside of it it's considered sexual immorality.
The worse is I can't feel any remorse or guilt anymore. It's like I'm becoming comfortable committing it every now and then because I know that God will forgive me anyway. I'm just so done but at the same time I don't want to give up. I don't want to go back to life I've lived living in complete disobedience to God. I don't want to go back to the most immoral, most dark, and hell life I lived. Atleast now I don't do it often but I just really want it to go away completely.
2024.05.21 18:14 kelpkelpers In what ways has being ugly made you lose or fail at things in life?
From a very early age I was usually the one that was more unattractive than everyone else so I was naturally looked down upon and struggled to make friends
This led to attention seeking behavior in school and at home to where I'd do and say silly and dumb things that would get me in trouble and even eventually suspended from school on several occasions
In school for group projects and activities I was usually picked last or not desired at all and forced into someone else's group (as benign as this seems it accurately portrays human and mother nature's tendency to weed out ugly people and leave them to rot and suffer alone)
My depression from being excluded and bullied in school made it difficult for me to focus on my school work and soooo I would end up failing classes that I could pass had I applied myself and had a stable mental health
This eventually made it to where I couldn't go to a good college to be successful and have a high paying job so I can have a good life and pay for surgeries
In college, my roommates bullied and neglected me which led me to drop out of college
I eventually went to community college which I dropped out of due to depression due to a miserable life due to being ugly and lack of focus
I tried to focus on working which eventually led to me being targeted and bullied out of jobs or led to me quitting because I couldn't take the mistreatment
This has led to me not having money to Pay for clothes to upkeep my hygiene or look less ugly
Which makes me be treated even worse
which makes it even harder to get a job
The gaps in employment and the firing / quitting makes it to where I can't get jobs in the future because I'm seen as a red flag to employers even though you can literally be mistreated so badly at work for being ugly that you can get fired or eventually quit
Now I have no hope or vision for the future because it seems like my life will always be a constant struggle just because I'm ugly
Oh also my dream of becoming a voice actor was a flop because voice acting is about having tons of real life experience and relationship experience which I never had which makes it hard for me to portray characters interestingly and believably
I wasn't born talented or exceptionally smart so I have to work hard at everything and call it lazy but the amount of work necessary for that isn't worth the results to me so I don't enjoy it
I can't make friends because people are turned off by my appearance so they are embarrassed / disgusted to be seen hanging out with me
This makes me be seen as a loser and as if something is wrong with me which repulses people more
Everyone I like never likes me back which increases the feelings of loneliness and worthlessness
I can't go out to social places because I'm always laughed at or treated badly so I stay in the house and do nothing all day
submitted by kelpkelpers to ugly [link] [comments]
This led to attention seeking behavior in school and at home to where I'd do and say silly and dumb things that would get me in trouble and even eventually suspended from school on several occasions
In school for group projects and activities I was usually picked last or not desired at all and forced into someone else's group (as benign as this seems it accurately portrays human and mother nature's tendency to weed out ugly people and leave them to rot and suffer alone)
My depression from being excluded and bullied in school made it difficult for me to focus on my school work and soooo I would end up failing classes that I could pass had I applied myself and had a stable mental health
This eventually made it to where I couldn't go to a good college to be successful and have a high paying job so I can have a good life and pay for surgeries
In college, my roommates bullied and neglected me which led me to drop out of college
I eventually went to community college which I dropped out of due to depression due to a miserable life due to being ugly and lack of focus
I tried to focus on working which eventually led to me being targeted and bullied out of jobs or led to me quitting because I couldn't take the mistreatment
This has led to me not having money to Pay for clothes to upkeep my hygiene or look less ugly
Which makes me be treated even worse
which makes it even harder to get a job
The gaps in employment and the firing / quitting makes it to where I can't get jobs in the future because I'm seen as a red flag to employers even though you can literally be mistreated so badly at work for being ugly that you can get fired or eventually quit
Now I have no hope or vision for the future because it seems like my life will always be a constant struggle just because I'm ugly
Oh also my dream of becoming a voice actor was a flop because voice acting is about having tons of real life experience and relationship experience which I never had which makes it hard for me to portray characters interestingly and believably
I wasn't born talented or exceptionally smart so I have to work hard at everything and call it lazy but the amount of work necessary for that isn't worth the results to me so I don't enjoy it
I can't make friends because people are turned off by my appearance so they are embarrassed / disgusted to be seen hanging out with me
This makes me be seen as a loser and as if something is wrong with me which repulses people more
Everyone I like never likes me back which increases the feelings of loneliness and worthlessness
I can't go out to social places because I'm always laughed at or treated badly so I stay in the house and do nothing all day
2024.05.21 18:11 According_Fruit4098 Manifesting
This was my response to a person who wanted to manifest an ex back into their lives:
Everything begins with a thought. It’s all a thought. The problem with manifestation has different elements. 1) is your personality/popularity enough to garner souls in order to work for your thought? 2) is your ex’s thought more powerful than your thought? 3) does another entity have the same thought that you do about your ex, and desiring him/her? The art, because it is an art, of collecting souls in order to work for your thought, is important because it’s not only you, who will get your ex back to you. “Manifesting” things into or out of your life has become more widespread and difficult because more and more people are understanding how it works. Think about it, if few people understood manifesting people, money and possessions into their life, those things would be easier to obtain. The more people find out, realize, understand and utilize manifestation, the harder it is for us to manifest those items into our lives. Manifestation will be compared to a job interview. 100 applicants for 1 job. People are leaning about manifestation more and more and the teachings of it are more widespread because we want more and more people to understand, “hey, take care of what you have”, your job, your man/woman, your car, your home, your family. Because just like a high, sought after job spot, there are 100 people waiting to take your spot. That’s all.
submitted by According_Fruit4098 to spirituality [link] [comments]
Everything begins with a thought. It’s all a thought. The problem with manifestation has different elements. 1) is your personality/popularity enough to garner souls in order to work for your thought? 2) is your ex’s thought more powerful than your thought? 3) does another entity have the same thought that you do about your ex, and desiring him/her? The art, because it is an art, of collecting souls in order to work for your thought, is important because it’s not only you, who will get your ex back to you. “Manifesting” things into or out of your life has become more widespread and difficult because more and more people are understanding how it works. Think about it, if few people understood manifesting people, money and possessions into their life, those things would be easier to obtain. The more people find out, realize, understand and utilize manifestation, the harder it is for us to manifest those items into our lives. Manifestation will be compared to a job interview. 100 applicants for 1 job. People are leaning about manifestation more and more and the teachings of it are more widespread because we want more and more people to understand, “hey, take care of what you have”, your job, your man/woman, your car, your home, your family. Because just like a high, sought after job spot, there are 100 people waiting to take your spot. That’s all.
2024.05.21 18:11 Specific_Wind8389 Is it possible to get rid of the sin of lust completely?
I fell again. I don't know what to do anymore. As a guy, the urges are just too strong. This has been my battle my whole life. I've been committing sexual sin at a very young age and it messed up my whole life to the point that I dropped out of college partly because of this sin. It badly affected me physically, mentally, and socially. I feel filthy. It's been the reason why I've been going back and forth in my faith.
A few moths ago, I recommitted my life to God and me committing the act got lessen but it still won't go away. I know it's a process. No one wakes up one day free from an addiction completely. But I feel like it's just getting worse and I don't think there's any way I could get rid of it completely.
I just wish I was normal. I wish I was numb and didn't feel any sexual urges. Sometimes I just want to cut my thing off just so I could stop sinning. Sometimes I say to God that this isn't gonna work and that I need a wife at this point since I know sex should be done inside of marriage and outside of it it's considered sexual immorality.
The worse is I can't feel any remorse or guilt anymore. It's like I'm becoming comfortable committing it every now and then because I know that God will forgive me anyway afterwards. I'm just so done but at the same time I don't want to give up. I don't want to go back to life I've lived living in complete disobedience to God. I don't want to go back to the most immoral, most dark, and hell life I lived. Atleast now I don't do it often but I just really want it to go away completely.
submitted by Specific_Wind8389 to Christianity [link] [comments]
A few moths ago, I recommitted my life to God and me committing the act got lessen but it still won't go away. I know it's a process. No one wakes up one day free from an addiction completely. But I feel like it's just getting worse and I don't think there's any way I could get rid of it completely.
I just wish I was normal. I wish I was numb and didn't feel any sexual urges. Sometimes I just want to cut my thing off just so I could stop sinning. Sometimes I say to God that this isn't gonna work and that I need a wife at this point since I know sex should be done inside of marriage and outside of it it's considered sexual immorality.
The worse is I can't feel any remorse or guilt anymore. It's like I'm becoming comfortable committing it every now and then because I know that God will forgive me anyway afterwards. I'm just so done but at the same time I don't want to give up. I don't want to go back to life I've lived living in complete disobedience to God. I don't want to go back to the most immoral, most dark, and hell life I lived. Atleast now I don't do it often but I just really want it to go away completely.
2024.05.21 18:10 SeriesDapper5692 I (22F) Have A Feeling For My Close Friend (23F)'s Crush (23M) and He Likes Me Too, What Should I Do?
It's a long story. Please bear with me, my mind is really chaotic right now. I am in college and have a circle of female friends since the first semester. All of us went to the same major. This year will be our 4th year being a group of friends together. I cherished them a lot, they helped me a lot and one of the reasons I survived college so far.
Then came the guy. It's a little too common actually. I first got close with this guy when we're in our second year, that's on 2021. The classes were still held online due to COVID back then, so we actually never see each other in real life. He was a quiet, shy guy who didn't get noticed by others, and as the class' leader, I contacted him a lot to make sure he didn't feel leave out since the others were joking around frequently in the class' group chat. From that, he began to ask me if I already have a partner for group assigments (there were quite a lot of assigments for group of 2 people) and since my other friends know other people too, I said yes. We began to become a duo for every group assignments. He was responsible and working together with him was pretty enjoyable. We began to talk everyday about random things to each other. We even played game together. I considered him as a close friend at this point.
Then, I introduced him to one of my close friends since she also plays the game we played together. I didn't actually know the extend of their interactions, just that he helped her in game sometimes and I guess they played from time to time without me too. Then, one day in 2022, my class had a first gathering where we booked a villa and held many games and gift trades, you know the thing you did to create a bond since it's our first meeting as classmates due to the pandemic. I was very shy at the thought of seeing him in real life for the first time (he actually a good looking, he got really popular among the girls in my major after this gathering) and pretended not to see him, yet he walked up to me first and greeted me. That time was ... really magical. The villa was located in an mountain area so it was really cold and he gave me his hoodie since I got cold easily. We took a lot of photos together at that time, and it seemed everyone in our year already treated us like a "campus couple" because of that. I, of course, denied that I like him and said that we're only good friends because ... a girl like me is afraid of rejection and reading the signs wrong.
But after the gathering ended, one of my close friends (the one that I introduced to him to play game together before) suddenly announced to our female friends group that she has a crush on him. Little by little, she began to show hostility to me then there was this one point when she ignored me for two months. Even when I tried to talk to her in, she didn't give me respond. At that time, I was scared I will ruin this friendship groups. I was longing for female friendships, the thing you saw in movies, and I finally have one when I entered college so I saw them as a blessing. In high school, I either got bullied or not having friends at all since I was always coming straight home after school ended (I came from a poor family so I didn't have the money to hang out and friendship in high school requires money for me since I attended a prestigious school where almost everyone has rich parents). So, I made a decision to cut him off. I stopped talking to him. For group assignment, I grouped with other people. Little by little, the distance between the two of us widened. In the end, we didn't talk to each other anymore, and that's when my friend started to talk to me again. I didn't ruin my friendship group. My friend and him got close and by then she already "replaced" me being his group assignment's partner. I let him go, thinking that I didn't have the time and energy to date anyway since I was busy doing part-times to earn money. He came from a good family, and so does my close friend. They suited each other. I won't become a girl who abandoned her friend for a guy. Since summer of 2023, I never had a talk with him again.
I was fine, well not really. It hurt not being able to talk to him again when we used to be close, but I did this to myself. My close friend talked about him a lot in our group's chats. Apparently, she already confessed twice and got rejected. But she wanted to stay as a friend so both of them were "best friends" until now. She told us she still held feelings for him. She sent him flowers on his graduation since he graduated early than us. I didn't. Yet, he approached me and asked me to take photo together. After 1 year of no contact. On his graduation day, he asked me to take photos together, just two of us. With everyone watching.
Later, he confessed to me that he always has feelings for me. It was ... not quite a shock since I wasn't that dense, but still ... I got nauseous. Part of me wants him too, but the realistic part of me reminding me that I couldn't be that kind of girl who betrayed her close friend. I told him, I couldn't. I got a lot in my plates, I haven't graduated yet, I am not ready for relationship ... all the reasons because I couldn't bring myself to lie that I don't like him. Because I do. Very much. For years. He was everything I ever wanted in a boyfriend. He said he could wait until I graduate. He was waiting for me for the past 2 years, waiting a few months won't matter much.
What should I do? Should I confess everything to my friendship group? I want to talk to my friends about this, to hear their thoughts, but I couldn't because I always kept my feelings for him as a secret. Then, how about my friendships? My close friend who likes him will definitely got hurt ... am I just not suitable for friendships, since I wasn't honest? If you were in my position, will you choose your crush or your close friend?
(Thank you so much for taking your time to read this.)
submitted by SeriesDapper5692 to relationship_advice [link] [comments]
Then came the guy. It's a little too common actually. I first got close with this guy when we're in our second year, that's on 2021. The classes were still held online due to COVID back then, so we actually never see each other in real life. He was a quiet, shy guy who didn't get noticed by others, and as the class' leader, I contacted him a lot to make sure he didn't feel leave out since the others were joking around frequently in the class' group chat. From that, he began to ask me if I already have a partner for group assigments (there were quite a lot of assigments for group of 2 people) and since my other friends know other people too, I said yes. We began to become a duo for every group assignments. He was responsible and working together with him was pretty enjoyable. We began to talk everyday about random things to each other. We even played game together. I considered him as a close friend at this point.
Then, I introduced him to one of my close friends since she also plays the game we played together. I didn't actually know the extend of their interactions, just that he helped her in game sometimes and I guess they played from time to time without me too. Then, one day in 2022, my class had a first gathering where we booked a villa and held many games and gift trades, you know the thing you did to create a bond since it's our first meeting as classmates due to the pandemic. I was very shy at the thought of seeing him in real life for the first time (he actually a good looking, he got really popular among the girls in my major after this gathering) and pretended not to see him, yet he walked up to me first and greeted me. That time was ... really magical. The villa was located in an mountain area so it was really cold and he gave me his hoodie since I got cold easily. We took a lot of photos together at that time, and it seemed everyone in our year already treated us like a "campus couple" because of that. I, of course, denied that I like him and said that we're only good friends because ... a girl like me is afraid of rejection and reading the signs wrong.
But after the gathering ended, one of my close friends (the one that I introduced to him to play game together before) suddenly announced to our female friends group that she has a crush on him. Little by little, she began to show hostility to me then there was this one point when she ignored me for two months. Even when I tried to talk to her in, she didn't give me respond. At that time, I was scared I will ruin this friendship groups. I was longing for female friendships, the thing you saw in movies, and I finally have one when I entered college so I saw them as a blessing. In high school, I either got bullied or not having friends at all since I was always coming straight home after school ended (I came from a poor family so I didn't have the money to hang out and friendship in high school requires money for me since I attended a prestigious school where almost everyone has rich parents). So, I made a decision to cut him off. I stopped talking to him. For group assignment, I grouped with other people. Little by little, the distance between the two of us widened. In the end, we didn't talk to each other anymore, and that's when my friend started to talk to me again. I didn't ruin my friendship group. My friend and him got close and by then she already "replaced" me being his group assignment's partner. I let him go, thinking that I didn't have the time and energy to date anyway since I was busy doing part-times to earn money. He came from a good family, and so does my close friend. They suited each other. I won't become a girl who abandoned her friend for a guy. Since summer of 2023, I never had a talk with him again.
I was fine, well not really. It hurt not being able to talk to him again when we used to be close, but I did this to myself. My close friend talked about him a lot in our group's chats. Apparently, she already confessed twice and got rejected. But she wanted to stay as a friend so both of them were "best friends" until now. She told us she still held feelings for him. She sent him flowers on his graduation since he graduated early than us. I didn't. Yet, he approached me and asked me to take photo together. After 1 year of no contact. On his graduation day, he asked me to take photos together, just two of us. With everyone watching.
Later, he confessed to me that he always has feelings for me. It was ... not quite a shock since I wasn't that dense, but still ... I got nauseous. Part of me wants him too, but the realistic part of me reminding me that I couldn't be that kind of girl who betrayed her close friend. I told him, I couldn't. I got a lot in my plates, I haven't graduated yet, I am not ready for relationship ... all the reasons because I couldn't bring myself to lie that I don't like him. Because I do. Very much. For years. He was everything I ever wanted in a boyfriend. He said he could wait until I graduate. He was waiting for me for the past 2 years, waiting a few months won't matter much.
What should I do? Should I confess everything to my friendship group? I want to talk to my friends about this, to hear their thoughts, but I couldn't because I always kept my feelings for him as a secret. Then, how about my friendships? My close friend who likes him will definitely got hurt ... am I just not suitable for friendships, since I wasn't honest? If you were in my position, will you choose your crush or your close friend?
(Thank you so much for taking your time to read this.)
2024.05.21 18:09 MWBartko Considerations on Sexual Immorality, Gender Identity, and my friends Non-Denominational Church.
A good friend of mine from a fairly conservative evangelical background is considering becoming a pastor at his non-denominational church. As part of the evaluation process, they asked him to write a paper on these topics that he is not an expert on.
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
submitted by MWBartko to Bible [link] [comments]
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
2024.05.21 18:09 RObOPyschO My boyfriend is being distant with me and I'm not sure how to feel about everything. I[18F] Bf[20M]
I'll try to keep this short but I tend to yap a lot so I'm sorry if this is unnecessarily long. Regardless I [18F] have been dating my boyfriend [20M] for a solid 6 months. When we first met things went really well, we bonded on a lot of things such as similar interests, morals, hobbies etc. Although, early on I noticed that I would be the one mostly opening up about my past/current things in my life[which isnt anything on him, i just sometimes trust way to easily]. When it came to him discussing his past/ current life events it would take a while for him to mention it and usually it would take someone else asking him for him to discuss recent things at the very least. Which I didn't mind initially since I want him to take his time opening up to me. As of recent, he's been acting very distant, in early April he all of a sudden let everyone know in our shared server that he would be taking a break for two weeks or so. When the announcement went out and I saw it, I messaged him and asked if he was alright, he was vague and said he was just burnt out. So I gave him some space and I only messaged him once during that time as a little "Hey hope you're doing well, make sure you take care of yourself." Etc, etc. After the two weeks he came back for a day and then later after I fell asleep made another announcement about needing more time, which he said he wasn't sure how long he'd be gone for. So I again gave him that space. However, as of now during this extended break he asked to talk to me over text, which was a day after my really close friend who I've known irl since I was a kid, told me that he had asked her about some advice about our relationship. My friend of course asked "Well do you still love her?" And he apparently said yes. However, when he asked to talk he typed out this paragraph[which I'll summarize as best as possible since I don’t really wanna look back at our old messages since the wound is still fresh] but he basically said he didn't love me and didn't know what to do, he also briefly elaborated on some other issues that may be causing him to feel this way such as family, work, etc. We discussed it briefly over text and I asked if we could take a break, which he agreed to. After the fact I talked with said close friend and she of course like any friend was upset and told me that I needed to focus on myself and distance myself from him. Which I did, initially we had matching pfps that I drew for the both of us which I abruptly changed[he ofc did the same]. Later I asked if we could discuss things properly over the phone instead of over text since I felt hurt by not being able to have a proper conversation over the phone. He agreed but come the day of the our phone call he blew me off to hang out with friends, I being hurt at the time snapped a bit and asked if I really wasn't good enough for a proper conversation which he with the same attitude as me responded that he forgot and the plans with friends were last minute. So I let it go and asked if we could take the next day, which we managed to. The conversation summarized was basically me asking what changed etc. Etc. To which he explained his reluctance to be honest about his past because of what he'd done prior[which I'm not going to touch on too much out of respect for him] apparently though everytime he was honest with a partner about his past they became distance or ended things right then and there. Which Depending on what it is my opinion on him isn't going to change, since a lot of my family has done similarly terrible things so it's not like I haven't heard it all before. Regardless, I'm not going to pry for his past, however I feel like he's letting his past hold him back and not allowing himself to be happy for once even though it all happened a while back. The main reason why I'm only putting this here now is because recently I had my senior prom which was last Saturday, and like anyone I posted pictures to our shared server, now usually when he's on these breaks he never ever responds to anything in the server, but when I posted pictures of me in a dress with full glam he immediately responded with "I love it". Which gave me mixed signals, so as a bit of a hail marry I decided to text him to see if he wanted to hang out which he immediately responded back with "sure". So when I got home late we hopped on a game for a bit which ended abruptly when he decided he wanted to play something else for a while, which I didn't mind since we stayed on party vc. I'll admit when he got off the game I wanted to play with him I sighed and he ofc asked me what was wrong and I just used the classic "nothing I'm just tired, or I don't wanna talk about it excuses." He took me at my word initially and left, he came back a little while later and told me that he knew something was wrong and be wanted me to tell him and be honest. So I did, I explained that I was confused on what we are and he was honest with me and said "I don't really know right now, but I know I'm not gonna find someone I relate to as much as you." I of course kinda froze at that not knowing how to feel with the sudden affection so I just kinda awkwardly laughed and said something along the lines of "Okay, you don't need to lie to make me feel better." Which he responded with something along the lines of "I'm serious though, it's gonna be hard to find anyone I relate to as much as I do with you." Then as the night progressed he casually made flirtatious comments as well as calling me babe again for the first time in a while, which I'll admit I didn't reciprocate the nicknames since it didn't feel right to call each other that after everything. After that night I just don't know how to feel, I'm just worried he's moving on and doesn't wanna be mean to me by breaking up with me, so he doesn't until he finds someone else. I don't think he is but as a chronic over thinker I can't help but worry, especially since I've never been so serious about someone, but everyone I know around me is telling me he's not worth the time and I should break up with him and move on. However, not only do I not want to, I really want to make things work. I just hope that he doesn't see this as I don't want to worry him or anyone else in our friend group, and I've already bugged my two friends a bunch about this already, but I don't wanna tell them about Saturday since I know I'll get shit from them since they want me to move on and find someone else.
[TLDR: Boyfriends become distant because of his past and stresses within his life[eventually telling me he didn't love me anymore and didn't know what to do chasing us to go on a break] and friends around me are telling me to move on etc. Etc. But I love him a lot and want to make things work, especially after he started showing me affection again last Saturday.]
submitted by RObOPyschO to LongDistance [link] [comments]
[TLDR: Boyfriends become distant because of his past and stresses within his life[eventually telling me he didn't love me anymore and didn't know what to do chasing us to go on a break] and friends around me are telling me to move on etc. Etc. But I love him a lot and want to make things work, especially after he started showing me affection again last Saturday.]
2024.05.21 18:08 Prudent-Fee39 Verbal Spat
Train - 11402 DOJ - 21/05/24 Coach - B1
So I (21M) was assigned upper berth and there was a 60+ man who was assigned middle berth. At 7:30pm he says I want to sleep and will lower the MB, I said it is too early and I don’t wanna sit on UB.
He says ok, sleep after a while. I agreed to go to sleep at 8:30. Literally 15 minutes later he starts again that he wants to sleep, again I refused, who TF sleeps at 7:45pm.
He starts getting riled up and then begins typical drama shouting: 1. How can you back answer me (ulte jawab) 2. Have consideration for my age 3. I have booked the seat, you have to get up 4. Is this your upbringing 5. Does it suit today’s youth to trouble us old people 6. Main bhi dekhta hu kaise nahi chhodta seat. 7. Is train ka TTE meri pehchan ka hai
I say the rules allow me to occupy the berth till 10 and if you don’t stop ruckus I will exercise my right. He is like there’s no such rule blah blah.
I say contain yourself and if you have so much problem, get TTE and then we’ll see, he goes “why should I call TTE, you call”. I just say ‘your need so you do, i will not leave the seat’
That guy ran throughout AC coaches just to get the TTE to our coach but to no avail. Then starts calling OBHS and coach supervisor and does drama ‘Mai cancer patient hoon, bohot door jana hai, baccha badtameez hai, mujhe pareshaan kiya ja raja hai etc’
The staff tells him rules are rules and they can’t do anything.
Ab pichle 1 ghante se ghoorta baitha hai. Uski aur bhi jyada jal rahi hai kyuki mai phone pe chat krte waqt smile kar raha hu.
Gajab log hai yaar, kise se kuch chahiye to maangne ka tarika hota hai, kisi ke baap ki jagir nahi hai, public transport hai train.
End of rant.
submitted by Prudent-Fee39 to indianrailways [link] [comments]
So I (21M) was assigned upper berth and there was a 60+ man who was assigned middle berth. At 7:30pm he says I want to sleep and will lower the MB, I said it is too early and I don’t wanna sit on UB.
He says ok, sleep after a while. I agreed to go to sleep at 8:30. Literally 15 minutes later he starts again that he wants to sleep, again I refused, who TF sleeps at 7:45pm.
He starts getting riled up and then begins typical drama shouting: 1. How can you back answer me (ulte jawab) 2. Have consideration for my age 3. I have booked the seat, you have to get up 4. Is this your upbringing 5. Does it suit today’s youth to trouble us old people 6. Main bhi dekhta hu kaise nahi chhodta seat. 7. Is train ka TTE meri pehchan ka hai
I say the rules allow me to occupy the berth till 10 and if you don’t stop ruckus I will exercise my right. He is like there’s no such rule blah blah.
I say contain yourself and if you have so much problem, get TTE and then we’ll see, he goes “why should I call TTE, you call”. I just say ‘your need so you do, i will not leave the seat’
That guy ran throughout AC coaches just to get the TTE to our coach but to no avail. Then starts calling OBHS and coach supervisor and does drama ‘Mai cancer patient hoon, bohot door jana hai, baccha badtameez hai, mujhe pareshaan kiya ja raja hai etc’
The staff tells him rules are rules and they can’t do anything.
Ab pichle 1 ghante se ghoorta baitha hai. Uski aur bhi jyada jal rahi hai kyuki mai phone pe chat krte waqt smile kar raha hu.
Gajab log hai yaar, kise se kuch chahiye to maangne ka tarika hota hai, kisi ke baap ki jagir nahi hai, public transport hai train.
End of rant.
2024.05.21 18:08 This-Letterhead-5516 Baby Quilt Questions
 | https://preview.redd.it/mfe6bu2xzs1d1.png?width=994&format=png&auto=webp&s=a721bfd1893969218d2f56e59f9fb11fc3d90775 submitted by This-Letterhead-5516 to sewing [link] [comments] Hello lovelies! This is my first quilt and I'm making it for my best friend who is having her baby boy soon. I know baby quilts are usually on the smaller side, but I don't want it to be too small - or too big (too much fabric can become cumbersome for a mum I'd imagine). Here's what I have so far, I stopped because I thought I was out of fabric but I've just found some more. Each of the squares is about 6x6 inches. I will do a soft green backing and use the backing as the binding. I'd love to know your thoughts on if I should add a few more rows or not ALSO, Yes, I know this is white, which I'd imagine is not ideal BUT I do plan on making plenty of quilts for this boy, and it's just my first try out of many to come. |
2024.05.21 18:07 phdthrowaway1718 Overcoming guilt and shame associated with how I (30M) used parental support all throughout my 20s and have not become a fully independent adult. Is it also normal to wonder about their spending as well?
Hey everyone,
I'm currently someone (30M) who has always had folks by my side all my life as part of "my team," as my parents call it. A major reason for this outside support network is because I'm autistic, have ADHD-I, dysgraphia, generalized anxiety, social anxiety, PTSD (more on that later), and processing speed in the 3rd percentile. I did not learn I was autistic until I was 14 and always took medication for it and my ADHD-I. I also did not know I had ADHD-I until I was 24-25 because I was on my own for submitting the records of my disabilities to the graduate schools I've attended up until this point. As for my processing speed, I did not learn it was that low until this past August when I sought a DSM-V re-evaluation with my own money.
My mental health symptoms were so severe that, despite doing well academically in a suburban school district that was well funded through property taxes (I'm in the US so the education system here is messed up), I transitioned to a tiny high school that specifically accommodated disabled students. This school had no AP, honors courses, or foreign language courses offered at all. I enrolled in a rural undergraduate school because they gave me the best scholarship offer and my parents insisted on getting as many scholarships as I could (more on this towards the end of the post). Despite my university's reputation as the "stoner college" of northern Ohio, I got my butt handed to me academically and had a 3.1 GPA from that undergraduate and a 3.26 from all of my courses overall. Part of the reason was because I went for a BS, rather than a BA, in Psychology and didn't do well in the math courses with the exception of when I retook Calculus 2.
After my first year, I wanted to take a break from college, but I was forced to stay at the behest of my parents. They even hired a life coach who worked with me from a distance for all four years. As grateful as I am for that support, I realize it was the beginning of issues with becoming totally independent. Fast forward to graduation and I have one summer's worth of lab experience and a 3.5 PSY GPA to my name. I'm forced to take a gap year because I applied only to Ph.D programs (big mistake) and had low GRE scores.
So, how did I get into graduate school with my awful credentials? My parents hired a different coach who specialized in job applications and had a lot of connections. I was able to sell what little I had and get offers to 6/8 Master's programs I applied to in Experimental Psychology and had solid references that explicitly address that they thought I could do well despite my shortcomings. This coach taught me how to contact potential advisors and professors ahead of time and taught me the ins and outs of selling myself to get in.
My final Master's record upon graduation was a 3.48 GPA and I graduated a semester later. My final year of the Master's program, I reconsulted my old coach who helped me write my personal statement and get in contact with potential advisors again. I got two interviews and had one offer of admission to the current Ph.D program I'm in right now. This was despite my lackluster GPA (both undergrad and Master's) and not taking another 10 hours for an assistantship during my Master's program (no additional TAship or RAship in other words, even though everyone else in my program did something extra by their second year).
After I matriculated into the program, I got my Master's in December 2020 due to COVID delays and defending later than I had hoped in my case. I eventually had an ugly falling out with my first advisor due to a misunderstanding (I'll leave it at that since this background detail is already long), but thankfully passed my qualifier project still. I think the world of my current advisor, especially since he was the only one who took me when no one else would at all. I developed PTSD from the experience with my first advisor based on a neuropsychological evaluation I got back in August 2023. When I spoke to the original evaluator for my autism, she said that it was only likely that way because my stress management is characteristically poor and I have extremely low stress tolerance.
Fast forward to now and I recently turned 30 earlier this month. I am back with the old coach who helped me with my Master's and Ph.D applications once again and they're even helping me with "life stuff," getting through all of it and were immensely crucial for helping me get through the situation with my first Ph.D advisor.
I am thankful for the help I've received, but as the top of comment of a previous post alluded to in this instance, I have not learned to walk on my own.
In case this information is relevant, I have $53k in student loan debt principal. The undergraduate loans are eligible under Biden's SAVE plan and have their interest waived when payments are due since they're $0 at the moment. I have about $26k saved right now that I'm not going to put back toward my $24k of graduate loans until I know if I have income after this August.
I have student loan debt even though my father makes over $200k a year ever since I was around 10 years old and my mother makes anywhere between $60k-$80k a year. My parents do not have student loans since neither went to college. I also just learned that the coach billed my parents for around $680 each month over past two (highest ever). Even though its $100 per one hour session (thus leading me to think it was $200 a month since we meet twice a month). Turns out they charged for email and text communications with me even though those were encouraged. Should I feel guilty for not keeping track of the spending despite the agreement with my parents to help me on that? Given everything else mentioned earlier, should I feel guilty for "blowing through" these support systems? Folks love to tell me that someone who had half the resources I did taking my spot in graduate school instead could've gone further.
There is also something else I've been wondering ever since I learned their income levels. Other than the spending on me and my brothers, why would they be that insistent on me and my brothers taking out student loans? They said that they, my grandparents, and me would all pay for "a third" and part of that third on me and my brother's end was taking out student loans. I should also note that I went to a private high school for those with disabilities tuition free despite my parent's income as well because I got an autism scholarship from the state of Ohio that waived tuition.
Only other things I know that are finance related are the $350k in loans (not sure if this was principal or principal + interest) my father took out for his small business, which I know were paid off around my junior year of undergrad. Other than that, I don't know the mortgage of the house or anything else related to its value. I do know there's a mortgage in general though because one of my brothers asked if he paid for the house upfront and he said he did not at all and took out a loan. What else could be underlying their spending? I'm open to hearing others speculate.
Also, thank you for reading this super long post.
submitted by phdthrowaway1718 to Millennials [link] [comments]
I'm currently someone (30M) who has always had folks by my side all my life as part of "my team," as my parents call it. A major reason for this outside support network is because I'm autistic, have ADHD-I, dysgraphia, generalized anxiety, social anxiety, PTSD (more on that later), and processing speed in the 3rd percentile. I did not learn I was autistic until I was 14 and always took medication for it and my ADHD-I. I also did not know I had ADHD-I until I was 24-25 because I was on my own for submitting the records of my disabilities to the graduate schools I've attended up until this point. As for my processing speed, I did not learn it was that low until this past August when I sought a DSM-V re-evaluation with my own money.
My mental health symptoms were so severe that, despite doing well academically in a suburban school district that was well funded through property taxes (I'm in the US so the education system here is messed up), I transitioned to a tiny high school that specifically accommodated disabled students. This school had no AP, honors courses, or foreign language courses offered at all. I enrolled in a rural undergraduate school because they gave me the best scholarship offer and my parents insisted on getting as many scholarships as I could (more on this towards the end of the post). Despite my university's reputation as the "stoner college" of northern Ohio, I got my butt handed to me academically and had a 3.1 GPA from that undergraduate and a 3.26 from all of my courses overall. Part of the reason was because I went for a BS, rather than a BA, in Psychology and didn't do well in the math courses with the exception of when I retook Calculus 2.
After my first year, I wanted to take a break from college, but I was forced to stay at the behest of my parents. They even hired a life coach who worked with me from a distance for all four years. As grateful as I am for that support, I realize it was the beginning of issues with becoming totally independent. Fast forward to graduation and I have one summer's worth of lab experience and a 3.5 PSY GPA to my name. I'm forced to take a gap year because I applied only to Ph.D programs (big mistake) and had low GRE scores.
So, how did I get into graduate school with my awful credentials? My parents hired a different coach who specialized in job applications and had a lot of connections. I was able to sell what little I had and get offers to 6/8 Master's programs I applied to in Experimental Psychology and had solid references that explicitly address that they thought I could do well despite my shortcomings. This coach taught me how to contact potential advisors and professors ahead of time and taught me the ins and outs of selling myself to get in.
My final Master's record upon graduation was a 3.48 GPA and I graduated a semester later. My final year of the Master's program, I reconsulted my old coach who helped me write my personal statement and get in contact with potential advisors again. I got two interviews and had one offer of admission to the current Ph.D program I'm in right now. This was despite my lackluster GPA (both undergrad and Master's) and not taking another 10 hours for an assistantship during my Master's program (no additional TAship or RAship in other words, even though everyone else in my program did something extra by their second year).
After I matriculated into the program, I got my Master's in December 2020 due to COVID delays and defending later than I had hoped in my case. I eventually had an ugly falling out with my first advisor due to a misunderstanding (I'll leave it at that since this background detail is already long), but thankfully passed my qualifier project still. I think the world of my current advisor, especially since he was the only one who took me when no one else would at all. I developed PTSD from the experience with my first advisor based on a neuropsychological evaluation I got back in August 2023. When I spoke to the original evaluator for my autism, she said that it was only likely that way because my stress management is characteristically poor and I have extremely low stress tolerance.
Fast forward to now and I recently turned 30 earlier this month. I am back with the old coach who helped me with my Master's and Ph.D applications once again and they're even helping me with "life stuff," getting through all of it and were immensely crucial for helping me get through the situation with my first Ph.D advisor.
I am thankful for the help I've received, but as the top of comment of a previous post alluded to in this instance, I have not learned to walk on my own.
In case this information is relevant, I have $53k in student loan debt principal. The undergraduate loans are eligible under Biden's SAVE plan and have their interest waived when payments are due since they're $0 at the moment. I have about $26k saved right now that I'm not going to put back toward my $24k of graduate loans until I know if I have income after this August.
I have student loan debt even though my father makes over $200k a year ever since I was around 10 years old and my mother makes anywhere between $60k-$80k a year. My parents do not have student loans since neither went to college. I also just learned that the coach billed my parents for around $680 each month over past two (highest ever). Even though its $100 per one hour session (thus leading me to think it was $200 a month since we meet twice a month). Turns out they charged for email and text communications with me even though those were encouraged. Should I feel guilty for not keeping track of the spending despite the agreement with my parents to help me on that? Given everything else mentioned earlier, should I feel guilty for "blowing through" these support systems? Folks love to tell me that someone who had half the resources I did taking my spot in graduate school instead could've gone further.
There is also something else I've been wondering ever since I learned their income levels. Other than the spending on me and my brothers, why would they be that insistent on me and my brothers taking out student loans? They said that they, my grandparents, and me would all pay for "a third" and part of that third on me and my brother's end was taking out student loans. I should also note that I went to a private high school for those with disabilities tuition free despite my parent's income as well because I got an autism scholarship from the state of Ohio that waived tuition.
Only other things I know that are finance related are the $350k in loans (not sure if this was principal or principal + interest) my father took out for his small business, which I know were paid off around my junior year of undergrad. Other than that, I don't know the mortgage of the house or anything else related to its value. I do know there's a mortgage in general though because one of my brothers asked if he paid for the house upfront and he said he did not at all and took out a loan. What else could be underlying their spending? I'm open to hearing others speculate.
Also, thank you for reading this super long post.
2024.05.21 18:07 MWBartko Considerations on Sexual Immorality, Gender Identity, and my friends Non-Denominational Church.
A good friend of mine from a fairly conservative evangelical background is considering becoming a pastor at his non-denominational church. As part of the evaluation process, they asked him to write a paper on these topics that he is not an expert on.
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
submitted by MWBartko to trueprolife [link] [comments]
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
2024.05.21 18:07 CuriousAnachronism 24 [M4M] Germany/Europe/Online - A Dream of Love
Prologue
Hello and welcome to my post. I will subdivide this into two large parts. One will cover my thoughts, feelings, my hopes and dreams...While the other will tell you the specifics of how I pass the time, what topics interest me, what passions do I posses. I believe that at the end of this leap into my inner world, you dear reader, will have all the necessary information to judge whether we are compatible or not.
Part I
I am writing this in the hopes of finding something that I lack. Lately I have had this feeling, this tinge of melancholy within the dephts of my being, this yearning to find a kindred spirit, another Soul, much like mine, to form a bond with. Perhaps Loneliness is the right word for what is bothering me, but to use it seems to carry with it a connotation of ungratefulness. Ungratefulness for the people that I do have in my life, although none of them, of course, have the connection to me that I seek here.
I have found it increasingly necessary to seek in this Life a sort of purity of thought. What I mean is, I have began to undestand what ideas and concepts are ultimately compatible with my inner most Self, ergo what guidelines I have to follow to feel the most whole. Naturally I have likewise realised what I cannot add to my Self and what I will henceforth reject with all the power that I posses.
With this new context in mind, I now follow on the path of self improvement. I will now begin to mold my Self into my perfected idea of how the Self should be. This is certainly a significant undertaking, one that will not be easy to follow through on but one that I ultimately have to do. To me such context is essential. It is akin to a Guiding Star shining in the night. I will follow this Star for without it I am lost in the vast Darkness.
Looking back at my life, it was suboptimal, especially if one compares the way it molded me to how I will now mold myself. I suppose I must look on with a hint of regret at all that time which one might consider to be lost. Still... I try to stave off such decisively negative interpretations, after all, I have ultimately came to these conclusions. That means that somewhere along the line I had to have picked up on enough of such ideas for them to become so cemented in my consciousness. Well, either that or I was always like this, but in that case I can at least thank my life up to this point for not being able to supress such manifestations of my inner most Self.
To add to the topic of my life, I must admit that not all the battles have yet been won, not all the Demons vanquished, not every Mountain climbed. I want you to keep such things in mind when deciding whether or not to approach me. Many will shy away, I undestand that much, but the pursuit of true Companionship is just another such battle. Having said all that I do believe that being able to overcome hurdles together carries with it a certain appeal. That is to say, what's the fun in joining once the Game is already over?
I don't shy away from such challenges, perhaps to a fault. Certain troubles that I faced in the past carry with them a long shadow over my current health and well being. Still, I intend to change little in this regard other than the proficiency with which I will clash the current of my Will against the cliffs of Life.
Part II
In this part of my post I will tell you about my interests and hobbies, I will try to be thorough, commonality in this regard is rather important to build a relationship
History. I have had an interest in history for almost a decade now, it started back in school and developed from there. Well, now that I think about it one could argue that it started even earlier in my life as I liked watching the odd historic documentary or film aired on television but it wasn't regular back then, I never actively sought it out. I am mostly interested in European history in the period between the 18th-20th century but I sometimes branch out to other time periods and other parts of the world. I watch various channels related to history and read articles and sometimes books. I have recently got a few books on the German revolution of 1848/1849 and a historical magazine on the Thirty Years' War. Besides that I try to visit museums sometimes.
Literature. Especially old novels. I like to immerse myself in the Worlds of these books, I tend to read them while listening to thematically fitting music and take my time with them. One time you are following a troubled Youth in his quest for spiritual understanding of the world, another you see the aged and decrepit Doctor gambling his very Soul on the promises of abtaining satisfaction in earthy pleasures, then again your olfaction notices the most pleasant scent known to man even as the one eminating it has the appearance of a revolting Frog. These and many other stories open up to you once you decide to set foot into the literary World.
Languages. I know three, with one being a bit rusty. I am currently working intently on strengthening it. I believe that if I continue to apply myself in this regard then I should be able to finally conquer it. What language am I working on? Well, if you were to stack all the major works in it they would be as tall as a house... It is fun to go through different works in multiple languages, the same goes for film, games and such.
Games. I recently played Cyberpunk 2077. Well as recently as I played any major story centric game. Now that the dust has settled and the bugs mostly removed...It's not that bad. The main questline at least. Besides that I tried Fallout 76 (Very average, I'm dissapointed with what they made the "RPG" system) and I might give Deus Ex Manking Divided another spin (since it's somewhat similar to Cyberpunk when it comes to its aesthetics). Dark Souls is one of my favorite series, I still haven't beaten Elden Ring though. When it came out I wasn't in the right mindset to invest a hundred hours into it, with all those bosses and difficult locations. I think I'll only consider playing it if I am streaming it to someone. I am generally interested in either streaming games or having the person I am talking to stream them to me. To be specific I mean streaming to a single person while being on call. Besides that I'm a big fan of Paradox strategy games, especially Europa Universalis IV and Heats of Iron IV, I tend to only play single player since I find multiplayer with many people to be rather stressful but on the other hand I have nothing against a co-op game. I'm not the best player though, despite the ammount of hours I have in them. Another great game I would mention would be Dragon's Dogma. A very underrated RPG. I recently beat it again and it was an atmospheric and interesting experience. It is one of those games that feel like they have an endless ammount of depth and constant new secrets to discover.
Anime and Manga. In recent times my interest in them has waned but I still watch the occasional series here and there. Like Cyberpunk Edgerunners (Which I found to be rather mediocre) and the very good first season from the new arc of Bleach. Some of my favourite series include: Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood, Death Note, Fate;Zero, Psycho Pass, Code Geass and Attack on Titan. I wouldn't mind if you were to introduce me to some new series, maybe based on the ones I mentioned. My favourite Manga is Berserk which I still follow, althought I am still not certain on the direction that the new author is taking. I suppose it really is a matter of contention whether a somewhat (or considerably warped) vision is better than an unfinished work. One could argue that a few novels remain unfinished and possess a macabre appeal to them as such.
Music. Classical music has a very special place in my heart. A few of my favourite pieces would be: Clair de Lune, Nocturne Op. 9 No.2, Devil's Trill Sonata, Danse Macabre, Valse Sentimentale, Symphony No. 7 in A Major, Op. 92: II. Alegreto (by Beethoven) and Suite from Swan Lake, Op. 20a: I. Scene. Moderato. There are more but these ones always invoke something in me when I listen to them. Besides Classical I also enjoy listening to Synthwave, old Western pop and J-pop, both modern and from the 20th century.
Esotericism. I am interested in things spiritual, mystical, magical and esoteric. I have read religios texts, magical grimoires, introductions to various schools of thought. It is interesting to me.
Epilogue
Hopefully I was able to cast the spotlight upon my inner World in a clear and unequivocal manner. I feel the need to add to the aforementioned that I am rather introverted, which means that I tend to dislike large social gatherings. I managed to condition myself to be able to endure the presense of large groups of people but it isn't something that I would seek out in most cases. Besides that I am neurodivergent and suffer from certain issues with mental health. I have to take medication to keep myself under control. They work well enough but certain days are harder than others. I respect the struggle that others have with mental health but in the context of a relationship I have my limits, no one with BDP for instance. I am also not looking for anything casual. I understand than one cannot demand depth and meaning from a conversation with an absolute stranger, that is akin to trying to build a sand castle right before the waves strike but I ask at least that you enter with a mindset that this might become something of significance. I also do want to say that I am completely Monogamous. My preference? The sickly, pale, intellectual who watches rain droplets slide down the window in Autumn. And...someone wholesome, if you get my meaning. Lastly, if I enjoy the company of a person I tend to not want to let them go.
Thank you for taking the time to read my post and have a good day. I ask that you send a DM instead of a chat. Write "Radiant Sun" as the title.
Goodbye...Or perhaps untill we meet again
submitted by CuriousAnachronism to ForeverAloneDating [link] [comments]
Hello and welcome to my post. I will subdivide this into two large parts. One will cover my thoughts, feelings, my hopes and dreams...While the other will tell you the specifics of how I pass the time, what topics interest me, what passions do I posses. I believe that at the end of this leap into my inner world, you dear reader, will have all the necessary information to judge whether we are compatible or not.
Part I
I am writing this in the hopes of finding something that I lack. Lately I have had this feeling, this tinge of melancholy within the dephts of my being, this yearning to find a kindred spirit, another Soul, much like mine, to form a bond with. Perhaps Loneliness is the right word for what is bothering me, but to use it seems to carry with it a connotation of ungratefulness. Ungratefulness for the people that I do have in my life, although none of them, of course, have the connection to me that I seek here.
I have found it increasingly necessary to seek in this Life a sort of purity of thought. What I mean is, I have began to undestand what ideas and concepts are ultimately compatible with my inner most Self, ergo what guidelines I have to follow to feel the most whole. Naturally I have likewise realised what I cannot add to my Self and what I will henceforth reject with all the power that I posses.
With this new context in mind, I now follow on the path of self improvement. I will now begin to mold my Self into my perfected idea of how the Self should be. This is certainly a significant undertaking, one that will not be easy to follow through on but one that I ultimately have to do. To me such context is essential. It is akin to a Guiding Star shining in the night. I will follow this Star for without it I am lost in the vast Darkness.
Looking back at my life, it was suboptimal, especially if one compares the way it molded me to how I will now mold myself. I suppose I must look on with a hint of regret at all that time which one might consider to be lost. Still... I try to stave off such decisively negative interpretations, after all, I have ultimately came to these conclusions. That means that somewhere along the line I had to have picked up on enough of such ideas for them to become so cemented in my consciousness. Well, either that or I was always like this, but in that case I can at least thank my life up to this point for not being able to supress such manifestations of my inner most Self.
To add to the topic of my life, I must admit that not all the battles have yet been won, not all the Demons vanquished, not every Mountain climbed. I want you to keep such things in mind when deciding whether or not to approach me. Many will shy away, I undestand that much, but the pursuit of true Companionship is just another such battle. Having said all that I do believe that being able to overcome hurdles together carries with it a certain appeal. That is to say, what's the fun in joining once the Game is already over?
I don't shy away from such challenges, perhaps to a fault. Certain troubles that I faced in the past carry with them a long shadow over my current health and well being. Still, I intend to change little in this regard other than the proficiency with which I will clash the current of my Will against the cliffs of Life.
Part II
In this part of my post I will tell you about my interests and hobbies, I will try to be thorough, commonality in this regard is rather important to build a relationship
History. I have had an interest in history for almost a decade now, it started back in school and developed from there. Well, now that I think about it one could argue that it started even earlier in my life as I liked watching the odd historic documentary or film aired on television but it wasn't regular back then, I never actively sought it out. I am mostly interested in European history in the period between the 18th-20th century but I sometimes branch out to other time periods and other parts of the world. I watch various channels related to history and read articles and sometimes books. I have recently got a few books on the German revolution of 1848/1849 and a historical magazine on the Thirty Years' War. Besides that I try to visit museums sometimes.
Literature. Especially old novels. I like to immerse myself in the Worlds of these books, I tend to read them while listening to thematically fitting music and take my time with them. One time you are following a troubled Youth in his quest for spiritual understanding of the world, another you see the aged and decrepit Doctor gambling his very Soul on the promises of abtaining satisfaction in earthy pleasures, then again your olfaction notices the most pleasant scent known to man even as the one eminating it has the appearance of a revolting Frog. These and many other stories open up to you once you decide to set foot into the literary World.
Languages. I know three, with one being a bit rusty. I am currently working intently on strengthening it. I believe that if I continue to apply myself in this regard then I should be able to finally conquer it. What language am I working on? Well, if you were to stack all the major works in it they would be as tall as a house... It is fun to go through different works in multiple languages, the same goes for film, games and such.
Games. I recently played Cyberpunk 2077. Well as recently as I played any major story centric game. Now that the dust has settled and the bugs mostly removed...It's not that bad. The main questline at least. Besides that I tried Fallout 76 (Very average, I'm dissapointed with what they made the "RPG" system) and I might give Deus Ex Manking Divided another spin (since it's somewhat similar to Cyberpunk when it comes to its aesthetics). Dark Souls is one of my favorite series, I still haven't beaten Elden Ring though. When it came out I wasn't in the right mindset to invest a hundred hours into it, with all those bosses and difficult locations. I think I'll only consider playing it if I am streaming it to someone. I am generally interested in either streaming games or having the person I am talking to stream them to me. To be specific I mean streaming to a single person while being on call. Besides that I'm a big fan of Paradox strategy games, especially Europa Universalis IV and Heats of Iron IV, I tend to only play single player since I find multiplayer with many people to be rather stressful but on the other hand I have nothing against a co-op game. I'm not the best player though, despite the ammount of hours I have in them. Another great game I would mention would be Dragon's Dogma. A very underrated RPG. I recently beat it again and it was an atmospheric and interesting experience. It is one of those games that feel like they have an endless ammount of depth and constant new secrets to discover.
Anime and Manga. In recent times my interest in them has waned but I still watch the occasional series here and there. Like Cyberpunk Edgerunners (Which I found to be rather mediocre) and the very good first season from the new arc of Bleach. Some of my favourite series include: Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood, Death Note, Fate;Zero, Psycho Pass, Code Geass and Attack on Titan. I wouldn't mind if you were to introduce me to some new series, maybe based on the ones I mentioned. My favourite Manga is Berserk which I still follow, althought I am still not certain on the direction that the new author is taking. I suppose it really is a matter of contention whether a somewhat (or considerably warped) vision is better than an unfinished work. One could argue that a few novels remain unfinished and possess a macabre appeal to them as such.
Music. Classical music has a very special place in my heart. A few of my favourite pieces would be: Clair de Lune, Nocturne Op. 9 No.2, Devil's Trill Sonata, Danse Macabre, Valse Sentimentale, Symphony No. 7 in A Major, Op. 92: II. Alegreto (by Beethoven) and Suite from Swan Lake, Op. 20a: I. Scene. Moderato. There are more but these ones always invoke something in me when I listen to them. Besides Classical I also enjoy listening to Synthwave, old Western pop and J-pop, both modern and from the 20th century.
Esotericism. I am interested in things spiritual, mystical, magical and esoteric. I have read religios texts, magical grimoires, introductions to various schools of thought. It is interesting to me.
Epilogue
Hopefully I was able to cast the spotlight upon my inner World in a clear and unequivocal manner. I feel the need to add to the aforementioned that I am rather introverted, which means that I tend to dislike large social gatherings. I managed to condition myself to be able to endure the presense of large groups of people but it isn't something that I would seek out in most cases. Besides that I am neurodivergent and suffer from certain issues with mental health. I have to take medication to keep myself under control. They work well enough but certain days are harder than others. I respect the struggle that others have with mental health but in the context of a relationship I have my limits, no one with BDP for instance. I am also not looking for anything casual. I understand than one cannot demand depth and meaning from a conversation with an absolute stranger, that is akin to trying to build a sand castle right before the waves strike but I ask at least that you enter with a mindset that this might become something of significance. I also do want to say that I am completely Monogamous. My preference? The sickly, pale, intellectual who watches rain droplets slide down the window in Autumn. And...someone wholesome, if you get my meaning. Lastly, if I enjoy the company of a person I tend to not want to let them go.
Thank you for taking the time to read my post and have a good day. I ask that you send a DM instead of a chat. Write "Radiant Sun" as the title.
Goodbye...Or perhaps untill we meet again
2024.05.21 18:07 Hatrct CMV: Hypothesis on the roots of Hysteria (Freud)
My hypothesis is that Freud's patients, who were mainly wealthy women in arranged marriages, did not find their husbands attractive. Modern life backs this up: as soon as women began to have opportunity to break away from societal restrains surrounding sex, they virtually all display sexual hypergamy: this appears to be a biological fact, which was restrained by virtually every society. It is not a surprise that virtually every society independently came up with rules surrounding sex and curbed female sexual freedom to at least some degree: it must be that these societies recognized the biological sexual hypergamy and the threats it could pose to society. Since radical 4rth wave feminism was implemented in the modern West about a decade ago we have seen how Western civilization has suddenly began its demise. In about 10 years, 1000s of years of civilization have been undone.
Back to Freud's patients: again, they were upper class wealthy women in arranged marriages, and so by virtue of simple statistics, since there are only so many highly attractive men, the majority of these women did not find their husbands attractive, but could not openly talk about this due to societal restrains. This gap caused distress, which then manifested in hysteria. That is why when they were able to do talk therapy and get out their repressed thoughts, their physical symptoms of hysteria were reduced. In addition, it is pretty much a fact that women are much more sensitive to guilt (my hypothesis for this is: as the physically weaker sex, women are more dependent on society for survival, so are more sensitive to acting anti-social, which is what guilt helps stop) than men (and due to the societal restraints they likely felt ashamed for wanting better than their husbands), and so this likely also played a part in creating a disconnect so strong that it caused neurological symptoms.
EDIT:
I had no idea of the cases below when I made this hypothesis. My hypothesis was based on: a) most of his patients were upper class/wealthy women b) most had unexplained neurological/physical symptoms c) sexuality was at least partially a theme in most cases. I combined that with the observed sexual behavior of women I see today, as well as my observed theme of women being much more sensitive of guilt and shame compared to men. But I just skimmed the cases and found some support for my hypothesis:
There were 5 women with case studies. 1 of them (Anna O.) does not appear to fit the pattern of my hypothesis, but she was not mainly treated by Freud, rather, by Breuer. Though it appears that the whole "penis envy" thing largely stemmed from her case. In summary, she appeared to have resentment over her brother, because she was smart but was not given the same academic opportunities due to being a girl. However, I can't seem to find anything about her sexual life.
Number 2: Anna von Lieben (Cäcilie M.)
There seems to be reasonable support for my hypothesis in this case.
https://eprints.gla.ac.uk/291492/1/291492.pdf
According to the above, appears that at 19, shortly prior to marriage, she started to have symptoms, relating to either a sexual experience or fantasy, and she kept it inside and did not tell anyone the details (likely due to shame?).
https://www.costumecocktail.com/2017/03/06/anna-todesco-ca-1865/
According to the above, she was wealthy, and at age 21 married a very wealthy older man.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/psychology/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/cacilie-m-case According to the above:
Number 3: Fanny Moser.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/freuds-patients-serial/201207/fanny-moser-1848-1925
According to the above, she was born in a wealthy family, and at age 23, married a wealthy 65 year old. Then when she got older she divorced, and fell in "love" with a much younger man, who robbed her of some of her fortune, and her daughters stopped speaking to her due to her irrational "love" for this much younger man. Again, my hypothesis is that she was not sexually fulfilled by her 40+ year older husband, and she fantasized about more attractive men, and the shame and guilt from this manifested in physical symptoms. Then she couldn't handle it and gave in and went the other extreme and married a much younger more attractive man who was clearly using her for her money. Again, due to protect herself from the shame/guilt from this action of hers, she projected and shifted her blamed at her daughters.
Number 4: Miss Lucy R.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/psychology/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/lucy-r-case
Another wealthy woman, she was in "love" with the man whose chlidren she cared for, and she was in denial about this (again, shame?).
Number 5: Katharina
https://www.pbs.org/youngdrfreud/pages/analysis_fears.htm
According to the above, at the age of 16 she developed symptoms after witnessing her father having sex with her sister, and her father apparently made a pass for her 2 years prior. While this case has nothing to do with her own marriage, a potential hypothesis is that she was a virgin at that time, and at that time a 16 year old female virgin likely had no access to men except her fantasy, and by that age one would be developed enough to have sexual desires. So perhaps she was turned on momentarily when she saw that scene, and this caused moral disgust and shame in her, and this manifested in physical symptoms.
submitted by Hatrct to changemyview [link] [comments]
Back to Freud's patients: again, they were upper class wealthy women in arranged marriages, and so by virtue of simple statistics, since there are only so many highly attractive men, the majority of these women did not find their husbands attractive, but could not openly talk about this due to societal restrains. This gap caused distress, which then manifested in hysteria. That is why when they were able to do talk therapy and get out their repressed thoughts, their physical symptoms of hysteria were reduced. In addition, it is pretty much a fact that women are much more sensitive to guilt (my hypothesis for this is: as the physically weaker sex, women are more dependent on society for survival, so are more sensitive to acting anti-social, which is what guilt helps stop) than men (and due to the societal restraints they likely felt ashamed for wanting better than their husbands), and so this likely also played a part in creating a disconnect so strong that it caused neurological symptoms.
EDIT:
I had no idea of the cases below when I made this hypothesis. My hypothesis was based on: a) most of his patients were upper class/wealthy women b) most had unexplained neurological/physical symptoms c) sexuality was at least partially a theme in most cases. I combined that with the observed sexual behavior of women I see today, as well as my observed theme of women being much more sensitive of guilt and shame compared to men. But I just skimmed the cases and found some support for my hypothesis:
There were 5 women with case studies. 1 of them (Anna O.) does not appear to fit the pattern of my hypothesis, but she was not mainly treated by Freud, rather, by Breuer. Though it appears that the whole "penis envy" thing largely stemmed from her case. In summary, she appeared to have resentment over her brother, because she was smart but was not given the same academic opportunities due to being a girl. However, I can't seem to find anything about her sexual life.
Number 2: Anna von Lieben (Cäcilie M.)
There seems to be reasonable support for my hypothesis in this case.
https://eprints.gla.ac.uk/291492/1/291492.pdf
According to the above, appears that at 19, shortly prior to marriage, she started to have symptoms, relating to either a sexual experience or fantasy, and she kept it inside and did not tell anyone the details (likely due to shame?).
https://www.costumecocktail.com/2017/03/06/anna-todesco-ca-1865/
According to the above, she was wealthy, and at age 21 married a very wealthy older man.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/psychology/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/cacilie-m-case According to the above:
We all know what witches were associated with at that time: sexual promiscuity.
Number 3: Fanny Moser.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/freuds-patients-serial/201207/fanny-moser-1848-1925
According to the above, she was born in a wealthy family, and at age 23, married a wealthy 65 year old. Then when she got older she divorced, and fell in "love" with a much younger man, who robbed her of some of her fortune, and her daughters stopped speaking to her due to her irrational "love" for this much younger man. Again, my hypothesis is that she was not sexually fulfilled by her 40+ year older husband, and she fantasized about more attractive men, and the shame and guilt from this manifested in physical symptoms. Then she couldn't handle it and gave in and went the other extreme and married a much younger more attractive man who was clearly using her for her money. Again, due to protect herself from the shame/guilt from this action of hers, she projected and shifted her blamed at her daughters.
Number 4: Miss Lucy R.
https://www.encyclopedia.com/psychology/dictionaries-thesauruses-pictures-and-press-releases/lucy-r-case
Another wealthy woman, she was in "love" with the man whose chlidren she cared for, and she was in denial about this (again, shame?).
Number 5: Katharina
https://www.pbs.org/youngdrfreud/pages/analysis_fears.htm
According to the above, at the age of 16 she developed symptoms after witnessing her father having sex with her sister, and her father apparently made a pass for her 2 years prior. While this case has nothing to do with her own marriage, a potential hypothesis is that she was a virgin at that time, and at that time a 16 year old female virgin likely had no access to men except her fantasy, and by that age one would be developed enough to have sexual desires. So perhaps she was turned on momentarily when she saw that scene, and this caused moral disgust and shame in her, and this manifested in physical symptoms.
2024.05.21 18:07 cyberattaq123 My Top 5 TCAP and Too 5 Takedown/HVP Worst Predators
TCAP:
5 Marvin Lakhan: This guy is way more fucked up than people realize because he seemed completely normal. John Kennelly is more popular due to his iconic voice/phrases and getting caught at McDonalds but Marvin is seriously fucked up. He wanted the decoy to fuck the cat with him watching, had graphic instructions that he definitely knew from viewing bestiality porn, and wanted to have sex with the decoy on her parents bed and in every room so she would never forget how he violated her. He tries to play it off like he was just joking and even Chris calls him out on how explicit his bestiality thing was. Tried to claim he wasn’t gonna go ‘all the way’ despite stripping naked in order to fulfill a deal so the decoy would do sex acts with a cat. Kennelly seemed to have brain trauma or some developmental issues which I think helped contribute to his deviancy but Marvin is 100% aware the entire time what he’s doing and unlike Wunderler who might have had the slightly more explicit bestiality chat (the PJ decoy said she had nightmares for years due to how horrible it was and it’s like a top 5 slimy I think on the PJ website). Fucking weird guy who needed way more time imo. I don’t think he’s reoffended but he needed serious help.
4 Lorne Armstrong: classic Lorne, can’t even win a list he’s rightfully on. I think basically everyone knows mostly everything about Lorne but the fact he’s only 4 on this list should tell you how bad it gets. genuinely believed he was in a committed, serious, albeit highly toxic, controlling and unhealthy relationship with a 13 year old girl. His chat is fucking disgusting. He gets jealous over Kayla’s dad’s corvette stating it ‘didn’t have his penis’. Called his dick Mr. Penis, raged over a made up 13 year old ex boyfriend. It’s just so disturbing and so apparent Lorne is highly sick and still to this day has never fully accepted responsibility, resulting in him becoming the community lolcow.
3 Walter Babst: this may seem strange given it’s not Rutherford who actually taught the age ranges of the decoy, but something about Babst just disturbs me so much. His chat genuinely is one of the only ones that made me near sick to my stomach and I’ve read part of Wunderlers. It’s so gross how he de ages all of his terms, he seems genuinely upset she started her period, obviously implying he wanted to be able to cum in her without consequences which is fucking horrific. He treats her like a doll and commands her what to wear, and the worst part of all of it is Babst is a smart guy. He immediately knew he was caught and going to be arrested, and that what he was doing was wrong. He obviously had been tortured by these demons for so long and finally couldn’t resist and decided he was going to do it. What’s even more disturbing is the guy was highly over qualified apparently to teach high school and is one of the only predators to ever have a better life after getting caught. He works at still and I believe is a manager or upper management at an engineering/physics firm I think? So did he become a teacher to sort of sate the desire? Maybe he was at the phase were merely creeping on his freshmen female students and catching some inappropriate down shirt glances or gross butt staring was enough to get him off.
2 Chuck Harding: truthfully, this guy and the piece of shit at #1 are so close in how horrible and disturbing they are it almost doesn’t matter. The decoy said they’re glad Chuck is dead and most of society should be as well. He was a serial groomer, likely rapist of multiple unreported boys. He told the decoy that he could be his grandpa, he wanted to go to Disney with the decoy in public and pretend that Chuck was his grandpa. He lived in Anaheim near Disney and I can only imagine the depraved shit Chuck did living that close it was NOT a coincidence. A disturbing, completely child porn brain rotted husk of a human who seriously had no qualms with what he was doing and even gets defensive and almost confrontational with Chris. If that was it I’d argue he’s still in my top 10 but then they find not only did he have CSAM, he had tons of it, mountains of it. Not only THAT, but some of it was dated back like 35 years old. NOT ONLY THAT, it was discovered that basically for that length of time Chuck had been a part of a CSAM exchange and honestly probably creation ring. An absolute monster, truly probably the worst person they ever caught, and again you can swap Chuck with #1 if that’s how you feel. Chuck’s segment is almost not even funny just like the next guy because of how absolutely disturbing and sick these men were.
1 James Wiles: Who else. Now comes down to your individual morality of what’s more horrific, being a 40 year long pedophile participating in a CSAM exchange and again probably also creation ring, or allowing your own flesh and blood daughters to not only be raped by yourself, but your sick brother as well. It’s just beyond the pale for so many predators, because it’s real. His daughters have done interviews I’m pretty sure and they said when he died they celebrated, that one of them had to take a picture and she keeps it to know he’s actually dead. Just a complete and utter piece of trash who I am genuinely happy is dead and if hell exists he is there. Horrific, disturbing, he’s like Westerbeck the improved edition.
Dishonorable Mention slotting between #2 and #3 imo is JPW. He’s just too fucking funny for me to put here but his life is insane and he did some horrible stuff, definitely could be on here had some of these other guys not been worse.
HVP/Takedown
5 Brian: This one will be short because outside of the stuff I want to really talk about he doesn’t have a lot of personality but something so he’s going at #5 below the next guys. This dude openly admitted to having had sex with multiple minors prior to the sting and ultimately what gets him on here is he is wearing and always wears the necklace one of his victims gave him, and it definitely seemed like he wore it for his own sick pleasure.
4 Donnie: This interaction is a top 10 of all time in my book. Takedown has a lot of stinkers and boring interviews and stings because there’s no long form decoy work, but wow, this guy and Brian, also caught in this sting are just doozies to me. Donnie wanted a dad to basically pimp his own daughter out to him, have the dad watch him fuck his daughter, then engaged in sex acts with the father and then all three of them would have sex together. He openly admits in the decoy interaction to an undercover cop posing as the father he’d done this exact scenario before or something similar and is sickeningly smug and ‘kind’ to the decoy portraying the kid. He states that parents should ‘be more involved’ in their children’s sexual development and exploration that it was good the father was going to participate in the rape of his own 13 year old daughter. His interview with Chris is no less shocking as he just further admits that he’s done it before and enjoyed it. Absolutely insane interaction.
3 Michael Gentile (or Popovich): These guys are almost the same in my book, slightly different flavors of disturbing and perverted old men. I’ll focus on Gentile. Just a fucking creep pedo who definitely had done this before, wanted to film child porn in his hotel room, only lived an hour away so why did he need a room? Very, VERY adept at grooming and knew instantly it was a sting when he entered. Calls his wife the witch and expects her to bail him out. His texts and voice mails and phone calls are absolutely vile and just pure filth. Really disturbing. Perhaps could be swapped with Donnie but something about the way he speaks, his confrontational nature with detectives despite having one of the grossest chat logs and decoy encounters, his evasiveness, just makes me rank him higher.
2 Jesse Velez: a bit of a cop out because it’s disturbing how this interaction went and how fucking smug this dumbass was realizing that Chris wasn’t really prepared. He is disgusting also no doubt. He wanted a 13 year old boy to live with him and ‘no one would find out’. It’s so disturbing realizing just how manipulative and sick these guys are the second they aren’t 10000% nailed to the wall. He gets arrested and all still but I would kill to see the world where Chris has the full chat and can obliterate this smug, condescending idiot.
1 Steven Buchanan: Who else (again). A short one cause his chat isn’t super outrageous, he’s relatively young, but the most disturbing thing about him is the ‘what if’ scenario. This guy looked unhinged. I don’t know why, if it was the military, if it was just something else that broke him, but this guy was dangerous without a shadow of a doubt. I don’t believe the items that constituted the kill kit were together, like in a bag, but even having those items is highly concerning. Really disturbing to watch and think about the horrible possibility of a real girl had been persuaded to leave her house and get into this psycho’s car.
submitted by cyberattaq123 to tcap [link] [comments]
5 Marvin Lakhan: This guy is way more fucked up than people realize because he seemed completely normal. John Kennelly is more popular due to his iconic voice/phrases and getting caught at McDonalds but Marvin is seriously fucked up. He wanted the decoy to fuck the cat with him watching, had graphic instructions that he definitely knew from viewing bestiality porn, and wanted to have sex with the decoy on her parents bed and in every room so she would never forget how he violated her. He tries to play it off like he was just joking and even Chris calls him out on how explicit his bestiality thing was. Tried to claim he wasn’t gonna go ‘all the way’ despite stripping naked in order to fulfill a deal so the decoy would do sex acts with a cat. Kennelly seemed to have brain trauma or some developmental issues which I think helped contribute to his deviancy but Marvin is 100% aware the entire time what he’s doing and unlike Wunderler who might have had the slightly more explicit bestiality chat (the PJ decoy said she had nightmares for years due to how horrible it was and it’s like a top 5 slimy I think on the PJ website). Fucking weird guy who needed way more time imo. I don’t think he’s reoffended but he needed serious help.
4 Lorne Armstrong: classic Lorne, can’t even win a list he’s rightfully on. I think basically everyone knows mostly everything about Lorne but the fact he’s only 4 on this list should tell you how bad it gets. genuinely believed he was in a committed, serious, albeit highly toxic, controlling and unhealthy relationship with a 13 year old girl. His chat is fucking disgusting. He gets jealous over Kayla’s dad’s corvette stating it ‘didn’t have his penis’. Called his dick Mr. Penis, raged over a made up 13 year old ex boyfriend. It’s just so disturbing and so apparent Lorne is highly sick and still to this day has never fully accepted responsibility, resulting in him becoming the community lolcow.
3 Walter Babst: this may seem strange given it’s not Rutherford who actually taught the age ranges of the decoy, but something about Babst just disturbs me so much. His chat genuinely is one of the only ones that made me near sick to my stomach and I’ve read part of Wunderlers. It’s so gross how he de ages all of his terms, he seems genuinely upset she started her period, obviously implying he wanted to be able to cum in her without consequences which is fucking horrific. He treats her like a doll and commands her what to wear, and the worst part of all of it is Babst is a smart guy. He immediately knew he was caught and going to be arrested, and that what he was doing was wrong. He obviously had been tortured by these demons for so long and finally couldn’t resist and decided he was going to do it. What’s even more disturbing is the guy was highly over qualified apparently to teach high school and is one of the only predators to ever have a better life after getting caught. He works at still and I believe is a manager or upper management at an engineering/physics firm I think? So did he become a teacher to sort of sate the desire? Maybe he was at the phase were merely creeping on his freshmen female students and catching some inappropriate down shirt glances or gross butt staring was enough to get him off.
2 Chuck Harding: truthfully, this guy and the piece of shit at #1 are so close in how horrible and disturbing they are it almost doesn’t matter. The decoy said they’re glad Chuck is dead and most of society should be as well. He was a serial groomer, likely rapist of multiple unreported boys. He told the decoy that he could be his grandpa, he wanted to go to Disney with the decoy in public and pretend that Chuck was his grandpa. He lived in Anaheim near Disney and I can only imagine the depraved shit Chuck did living that close it was NOT a coincidence. A disturbing, completely child porn brain rotted husk of a human who seriously had no qualms with what he was doing and even gets defensive and almost confrontational with Chris. If that was it I’d argue he’s still in my top 10 but then they find not only did he have CSAM, he had tons of it, mountains of it. Not only THAT, but some of it was dated back like 35 years old. NOT ONLY THAT, it was discovered that basically for that length of time Chuck had been a part of a CSAM exchange and honestly probably creation ring. An absolute monster, truly probably the worst person they ever caught, and again you can swap Chuck with #1 if that’s how you feel. Chuck’s segment is almost not even funny just like the next guy because of how absolutely disturbing and sick these men were.
1 James Wiles: Who else. Now comes down to your individual morality of what’s more horrific, being a 40 year long pedophile participating in a CSAM exchange and again probably also creation ring, or allowing your own flesh and blood daughters to not only be raped by yourself, but your sick brother as well. It’s just beyond the pale for so many predators, because it’s real. His daughters have done interviews I’m pretty sure and they said when he died they celebrated, that one of them had to take a picture and she keeps it to know he’s actually dead. Just a complete and utter piece of trash who I am genuinely happy is dead and if hell exists he is there. Horrific, disturbing, he’s like Westerbeck the improved edition.
Dishonorable Mention slotting between #2 and #3 imo is JPW. He’s just too fucking funny for me to put here but his life is insane and he did some horrible stuff, definitely could be on here had some of these other guys not been worse.
HVP/Takedown
5 Brian: This one will be short because outside of the stuff I want to really talk about he doesn’t have a lot of personality but something so he’s going at #5 below the next guys. This dude openly admitted to having had sex with multiple minors prior to the sting and ultimately what gets him on here is he is wearing and always wears the necklace one of his victims gave him, and it definitely seemed like he wore it for his own sick pleasure.
4 Donnie: This interaction is a top 10 of all time in my book. Takedown has a lot of stinkers and boring interviews and stings because there’s no long form decoy work, but wow, this guy and Brian, also caught in this sting are just doozies to me. Donnie wanted a dad to basically pimp his own daughter out to him, have the dad watch him fuck his daughter, then engaged in sex acts with the father and then all three of them would have sex together. He openly admits in the decoy interaction to an undercover cop posing as the father he’d done this exact scenario before or something similar and is sickeningly smug and ‘kind’ to the decoy portraying the kid. He states that parents should ‘be more involved’ in their children’s sexual development and exploration that it was good the father was going to participate in the rape of his own 13 year old daughter. His interview with Chris is no less shocking as he just further admits that he’s done it before and enjoyed it. Absolutely insane interaction.
3 Michael Gentile (or Popovich): These guys are almost the same in my book, slightly different flavors of disturbing and perverted old men. I’ll focus on Gentile. Just a fucking creep pedo who definitely had done this before, wanted to film child porn in his hotel room, only lived an hour away so why did he need a room? Very, VERY adept at grooming and knew instantly it was a sting when he entered. Calls his wife the witch and expects her to bail him out. His texts and voice mails and phone calls are absolutely vile and just pure filth. Really disturbing. Perhaps could be swapped with Donnie but something about the way he speaks, his confrontational nature with detectives despite having one of the grossest chat logs and decoy encounters, his evasiveness, just makes me rank him higher.
2 Jesse Velez: a bit of a cop out because it’s disturbing how this interaction went and how fucking smug this dumbass was realizing that Chris wasn’t really prepared. He is disgusting also no doubt. He wanted a 13 year old boy to live with him and ‘no one would find out’. It’s so disturbing realizing just how manipulative and sick these guys are the second they aren’t 10000% nailed to the wall. He gets arrested and all still but I would kill to see the world where Chris has the full chat and can obliterate this smug, condescending idiot.
1 Steven Buchanan: Who else (again). A short one cause his chat isn’t super outrageous, he’s relatively young, but the most disturbing thing about him is the ‘what if’ scenario. This guy looked unhinged. I don’t know why, if it was the military, if it was just something else that broke him, but this guy was dangerous without a shadow of a doubt. I don’t believe the items that constituted the kill kit were together, like in a bag, but even having those items is highly concerning. Really disturbing to watch and think about the horrible possibility of a real girl had been persuaded to leave her house and get into this psycho’s car.
2024.05.21 18:06 MWBartko Considerations on Sexual Immorality, Gender Identity, and my friends Non-Denominational Church.
A good friend of mine from a fairly conservative evangelical background is considering becoming a pastor at his non-denominational church. As part of the evaluation process, they asked him to write a paper on these topics that he is not an expert on.
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
submitted by MWBartko to Protestant [link] [comments]
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
2024.05.21 18:06 mikez4nder How do you rank the 5 color lands?
I’m looking for one more 5 color land for my cube and am wondering what experiences y’all have had with 5 color stuff. I have at various times run some combination of [[Gemstone Mine]], [[Gemstone Caverns]], and [[Forbidden Orchard]] but I’m not really enamored with any of them.
I made a list of 23 5 color lands that i could consider for various cubes, most of which are not good. Here’s how I’d tier them:
F tier. The absolute worst, for someone intentionally trying to make a cube of terribad cards, but since that exists, so do these.
[[Rainbow Vale]] always brings a smile and some serious confusion when I play it, and it’s in the dual land stack for the worst cube ever alongside an even more rancid land.
[[Rhystic Cave]] is a comical reminder of how terrible card design used to be. Ok, now to the real cards.
E tier. Some of these are excellent in very specific, niche cubes, but that’s the only place to use them.
[[Pillar of the Paruns]] would likely excel in a heavy multicolor environment, but be terrible elsewhere. I’m elsewhere.
[[Tarnished Citadel]] might do work in a commander cube like it does in cEDH, but even if you have Death’s Shadow it’s a stretch to play this in cubes with 20 starting life.
[[Tendo Ice Bridge]] would be good in an environment with heavy proliferate but hard to justify anywhere else.
I suspect this summer we’ll start to see a fair number of [[Aether Hub]]s added to cubes as MH3 blasts us with a bunch of energy counters and “The Reserved List, but with Energy™️” cards. It’ll be a great shout in a heavy energy cube, but not for me.
[[Cavern of Souls]] could be amazing in a tribal cube but doesn’t cast enough spells for me in any of my current cubes.
D tier. A strict upgrade exists, or you get rolled by board wipes.
[[Lotus Vale]] is fun if you’re trying to do degenerate things but has no protection and sets you up to just die if it’s destroyed. Plus, Field exists.
[[Grand Coliseum]] is a bad City of Brass that ETBs tapped. Yuck.
[[Glimmervoid]] and [[Thran Quarry]] are functionally identical, huge risks that tap for all the colors but set you back massively if a board wipe removes them.
C Tier. Maybe these are useful in some decks but overall the downside is a bit much.
[[Ancient Ziggurat]] is probably fine in creature Beatdown decks with only a few spells in them but much of the degenerate stuff my cube wants to do isn’t creature based.
[[Forbidden Orchard]] is unconditional 5 colors all the time but, as creatures get pushed and shrapnel slash fodder becomes more valuable, it’s often a bad strategy to give your opponents dudes.
I love me some [[Undiscovered Paradise]] and it gets better as your landfall cards get better, but sometimes the tempo loss is a significant problem. It feels close to Vintage Cube power but not quite.
B Tier. I can see playing these but I’m not super excited. Should I be?
[[Spire of Industry]] having the colorless option and not dying to board wipes is pretty great, and it’s pretty easy to have an artifact sitting around in Vintage Cube. This is one of the ones I’ve never run in my cube but thought about all the time.
[[City of Ass]] can ramp you in conjunction with Thespian’s Stage, Snap, Frantic Search, etc. But….
[[Exotic Orchard]] is probably the one I most want to try. My cube has great fixing, so I always assume I’ll have a couple color options. That’s probably enough for the decks that want this. If you play Fellwar Stone in your vintage cube, isn’t this the same thing?
[[Lotus Field]] is a fine combo piece and can make some swingy plays. I don’t see any reason not to run it.
A tier. Vintage Cube staples, including one I doubt and hate having in my cube.
[[Gemstone Caverns]] is a high tier powerhouse that has just never worked for me in cube, in cEDH, anywhere. Tell me stories, try to sell me on this one.
At the same time, I’m higher than many on [[Gemstone Mine]] and currently run it as an absolute stud in aggro and combo. I just want one more 5 color land that’s better in slower, grindier decks.
The people who have started cutting [[City of Brass]] are lunatics, as this is one of those staples that belongs in every cube.
S tier. The best.
[[Mana Confluence]] isn’t going anywhere. Ever.
[[Nearby Planet]] is a stunning, fetchable target that fixes mana, turns on domain, and has a bunch of sweet niche interactions with tons of random cards. I don’t care if it’s an acorn, it’s given me the earliest Scion of Draco and Leyline Binding casts known to man.
TLDR version: Should I add Exotic Orchard, Spire of Industry, or do nothing?
Your thoughts on five color lands are most appreciated.
submitted by mikez4nder to mtgcube [link] [comments]
I made a list of 23 5 color lands that i could consider for various cubes, most of which are not good. Here’s how I’d tier them:
F tier. The absolute worst, for someone intentionally trying to make a cube of terribad cards, but since that exists, so do these.
[[Rainbow Vale]] always brings a smile and some serious confusion when I play it, and it’s in the dual land stack for the worst cube ever alongside an even more rancid land.
[[Rhystic Cave]] is a comical reminder of how terrible card design used to be. Ok, now to the real cards.
E tier. Some of these are excellent in very specific, niche cubes, but that’s the only place to use them.
[[Pillar of the Paruns]] would likely excel in a heavy multicolor environment, but be terrible elsewhere. I’m elsewhere.
[[Tarnished Citadel]] might do work in a commander cube like it does in cEDH, but even if you have Death’s Shadow it’s a stretch to play this in cubes with 20 starting life.
[[Tendo Ice Bridge]] would be good in an environment with heavy proliferate but hard to justify anywhere else.
I suspect this summer we’ll start to see a fair number of [[Aether Hub]]s added to cubes as MH3 blasts us with a bunch of energy counters and “The Reserved List, but with Energy™️” cards. It’ll be a great shout in a heavy energy cube, but not for me.
[[Cavern of Souls]] could be amazing in a tribal cube but doesn’t cast enough spells for me in any of my current cubes.
D tier. A strict upgrade exists, or you get rolled by board wipes.
[[Lotus Vale]] is fun if you’re trying to do degenerate things but has no protection and sets you up to just die if it’s destroyed. Plus, Field exists.
[[Grand Coliseum]] is a bad City of Brass that ETBs tapped. Yuck.
[[Glimmervoid]] and [[Thran Quarry]] are functionally identical, huge risks that tap for all the colors but set you back massively if a board wipe removes them.
C Tier. Maybe these are useful in some decks but overall the downside is a bit much.
[[Ancient Ziggurat]] is probably fine in creature Beatdown decks with only a few spells in them but much of the degenerate stuff my cube wants to do isn’t creature based.
[[Forbidden Orchard]] is unconditional 5 colors all the time but, as creatures get pushed and shrapnel slash fodder becomes more valuable, it’s often a bad strategy to give your opponents dudes.
I love me some [[Undiscovered Paradise]] and it gets better as your landfall cards get better, but sometimes the tempo loss is a significant problem. It feels close to Vintage Cube power but not quite.
B Tier. I can see playing these but I’m not super excited. Should I be?
[[Spire of Industry]] having the colorless option and not dying to board wipes is pretty great, and it’s pretty easy to have an artifact sitting around in Vintage Cube. This is one of the ones I’ve never run in my cube but thought about all the time.
[[City of Ass]] can ramp you in conjunction with Thespian’s Stage, Snap, Frantic Search, etc. But….
[[Exotic Orchard]] is probably the one I most want to try. My cube has great fixing, so I always assume I’ll have a couple color options. That’s probably enough for the decks that want this. If you play Fellwar Stone in your vintage cube, isn’t this the same thing?
[[Lotus Field]] is a fine combo piece and can make some swingy plays. I don’t see any reason not to run it.
A tier. Vintage Cube staples, including one I doubt and hate having in my cube.
[[Gemstone Caverns]] is a high tier powerhouse that has just never worked for me in cube, in cEDH, anywhere. Tell me stories, try to sell me on this one.
At the same time, I’m higher than many on [[Gemstone Mine]] and currently run it as an absolute stud in aggro and combo. I just want one more 5 color land that’s better in slower, grindier decks.
The people who have started cutting [[City of Brass]] are lunatics, as this is one of those staples that belongs in every cube.
S tier. The best.
[[Mana Confluence]] isn’t going anywhere. Ever.
[[Nearby Planet]] is a stunning, fetchable target that fixes mana, turns on domain, and has a bunch of sweet niche interactions with tons of random cards. I don’t care if it’s an acorn, it’s given me the earliest Scion of Draco and Leyline Binding casts known to man.
TLDR version: Should I add Exotic Orchard, Spire of Industry, or do nothing?
Your thoughts on five color lands are most appreciated.