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2011.08.05 19:02 Slashur_8 QuotesPorn
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2014.05.20 18:02 Quotes on programming
2024.05.14 01:00 hereliesLydia Why Firefly ≠ Titania (Spoilers for 2.3 relic lore descriptions)
DISCLAIMER: This theory uses text from the leaked 2.3 relics, Firefly's signature light cone, the current Glamoth planar relics, and relevant lines from dialogue in the story. I'll do my best to cite my sources for everything!
Let's get down to business! Who, or what, is Titania exactly?
According to both planar relics, she's the "Empress". That's about the only thing they agree on though, because the sphere describes her as a benevolent ruler who brought civilization to Glamoth's outer colonies, while the rope actually tells us that she's got no power (but I think they mean political power, since it also claims she telepathically commanded the Iron Cavalry and that seems kinda powerful), and that the ruling council created her in response to the Swarm's attack. Here's a longer excerpt from the rope's description:
I don't think she's Firefly, though. IMO it'd be a little tacky to get another identity reveal after Sam, but I wouldn't be making this post if I didn't have a stronger argument than that. Before 2.2, there were a lot of theories about her identity as Sam, the Stellaron Hunter... specifically theories that wanted to separate that identity from "Firefly", either by claiming Sam might be an AI or a second personality, or by claiming that Firefly is an ordinary girl (or Titania) who found the armor and decided to wear it. Lemme go over my counterarguments for both these points, and then I'll get to my own theory.
After her first "death" to the meme, Black Swan helps us investigate what Firefly was doing in the hotel, and a certain line of dialogue raised many questions. To quote:
Thing is, Black Swan's memory magic never shows us this second person, so we can only assume she's talking to the armor, right? Except... we've never seen her and Sam in the same place together. I know that sounds cheesy, but it's actually pretty big proof here. When she transforms into Sam, or back out of Firefly, the armor just appears and disappears in a bunch of flames. Of course it's probably that her transforming device is the reason why, but even without it there's a line in Genshin that could explain this too. In one of the Traveler's profile voicelines, Paimon confirms that weapons and personal items simply appearing out of nowhere is a regular thing that happens in-universe, and it's likely HSR uses this same rule. I don't think there's any hard evidence to suggest the armor even exists physically until she uses her transforming device, so we can rule out this mystery person being Sam.
IMO, it was probably more like an upset reaction to somebody else who brought up the 'mecha' thing first. Maybe something like this:
Another thing I've seen people argue is that her personality when we first meet Firefly in Golden Hour just doesn't match up with Sam. Voicelines from the Stellaron Hunters, dialogue from SW visiting the Express, and one of Blade's story chapters all describe him as the ruthless and cold-blooded muscle of the group, which is very different from the sweetheart tour guide we met. I think people can't understand how these two versions of her coexist, but they're not mutually exclusive at all. What if Sam's efficiency is because she dislikes being a weapon, and wants to get her jobs over with quickly? What if her mission in Penacony is Firefly's first chance to actually explore herself as "Firefly", without her scripts asking her to cause destruction? It's not like she's living a double life, more like she's still in the process of growing into her actual self. Maybe texting us stickers from Blade's phone was a baby step for her to experiment, since TB hadn't met Sam yet and she could be less serious, or maybe her armor's fingers have trouble typing, who even knows?? I think the "inconsistencies" in her behavior can be explained pretty easily once you realize she's still figuring herself out, y'know?
There's also tons of dialogue before and after her reveal that implies she's pretty familiar with combat, too. Her accurate description of Sampo is the obvious one (that man is NOT 5'9 though), but she also mentions that a baseball bat isn't an efficient weapon, and later in the story if you picked the Hanu trial for the auditions thing, she complains about not having her armor, brings up that it'll be hard for her to let go of the bazooka, and compares Hanu's rocket launcher to something called the "Soaring Locust II" (some kind of weapon attachment for her armor maybe?), so it's pretty clear that she's not a stranger to fighting. I don't think she's just some ordinary girl who picked up the mecha.
Finally, there's an inconsistency between her and Sam when talking about dreams. On the balcony, Firefly describes her dream about the scorched earth and the sapling, while Sam outright says he was "born without the ability to 'dream'." Thanks to her upcoming light cone, we've got an answer to this problem:
So dreaming isn't an issue anymore, and her two personalities aren't mutually exclusive, and she wasn't talking to her armor in the hotel. But I hear you, none of that really proves she isn't Titania, right? Because at least the Empress has the same origin as the Iron Cavalry pilots... And that's a good point, but I've got evidence against it too.
According to Firefly's drip marketing, she was "Born as a weapon", and is "afflicted with the agony of Entropy Loss Syndrome due to genetic modification.", both of which line up perfectly with our understanding of the Cavalry pilots so far. One leaked relic says "Identical-looking warriors were birthed from the incubators", the rope says "the ruling council threw down the gauntlet and resolved to alter the essence of humanity", and even Firefly herself says "[Sam] is the cradle of my vitality, and the meaning of my birth." when asked about it in Dreamflux Reef. These statements only make sense if Firefly is one of these lab-grown humans, and literally born to pilot her armor.
If you're still not convinced, that line about Entropy Loss gives us another clue: since it's due to genetic modification, that means her "altered essence" is what causes it, so how exactly is she different from a regular human? Another leaked relic says "The armor deeply synchronized its sensory organs with that of the pilot", which is very weird phrasing until you remember that Welt told us Sam has superhuman perception after we got SW's message. That ability kinda contradicts everything Firefly said about her condition, so what if her genetic modifications are meant for that "synchronization"? Maybe it's supposed to increase combat effectiveness with some kind of symbiotic relationship between her and the armor? It definitely plays into more mecha anime tropes (NGE comes to mind), which she's already got a crazy amount of, and might even explain why she's naked while wearing her armor.
When she calls Sam the "cradle of [her] vitality", she means it's literally the only way she can guarantee her Entropy Loss won't flare up and cause her to dissociate. The armor keeps her grounded and conscious, even though it might be extremely painful to use it, given how Adin Rudd in the English dub almost seems to grunt out his lines, and how her kit and the boss' kit both include HP-draining mechanics. This is also why she appreciates the Dreamscape so much, as she told us in her secret balcony spot that she's able to "listen, and see, and touch, and think, and understand whatever I want with my body", as opposed to doing these things with Sam instead. Her cutscene with Blade suggests that it's not impossible for her to exit the armor, but I'm guessing she can't do this for long stretches of time, or that it comes with a risk of having her Entropy Loss worsen. The "icy medical cabin" she mentioned turned out to be Sam, after all.
This one's a bit more subjective, but I'll die on this hill so I might as well include it as a final argument. I honestly think her narrative themes benefit more if she's a regular Iron Cavalryman than if she's Titania. Her story is about an experimental soldier born to be a weapon, living only to kill bugs by the orders of a fake Empress she swore loyalty to, and never having a chance to experience life as a regular young girl. It's about recovering from war trauma, overcoming a medical condition and physical disability, and finally discovering an identity for herself instead of being defined by her use to other people. I'm so in love with this character concept, and while I plan to bankrupt myself over this girl no matter what direction Hoyo picks, I've got my fingers crossed that I'm right about her because it would be so amazing to see that story come to life about a character who stole my heart like this. ^w^
In conclusion? Firefly ≠ Titania, and I believe it's a more cohesive, impactful, and beautiful story if she's a soldier instead of an Empress.
Thank you for reading!
P.S. I'd love to hear anybody's thoughts in the comments, whether they agree with some of my points, or if they've got arguments of their own! Just remember to be civil, because at the end of the day we're all Firefly enjoyers and everybody's ideas are valid until we get more official information about her! :D
submitted by hereliesLydia to FireflyMains [link] [comments]
According to both planar relics, she's the "Empress". That's about the only thing they agree on though, because the sphere describes her as a benevolent ruler who brought civilization to Glamoth's outer colonies, while the rope actually tells us that she's got no power (but I think they mean political power, since it also claims she telepathically commanded the Iron Cavalry and that seems kinda powerful), and that the ruling council created her in response to the Swarm's attack. Here's a longer excerpt from the rope's description:
"In the dreams that these warriors are woven into, the sole meaning of their existence is to guard Titania and her 'empire'. In their short lives, they studied, fought, received the Empress' commands, faced the enemy fearlessly, and died with honor."It's pretty damning evidence that "empire" is written in quotation marks like this in most of these relics, and I've got theories about what kind of state Glamoth was (cough cough. Interstellar colonizers, cough), but that's another discussion. What matters here is that Titania definitely isn't a real Empress. Maybe she's a puppet ruler, or a symbol but not a person, or even some kind of war tactic AI skynet situation to direct troops, or whatever floats your boat.
I don't think she's Firefly, though. IMO it'd be a little tacky to get another identity reveal after Sam, but I wouldn't be making this post if I didn't have a stronger argument than that. Before 2.2, there were a lot of theories about her identity as Sam, the Stellaron Hunter... specifically theories that wanted to separate that identity from "Firefly", either by claiming Sam might be an AI or a second personality, or by claiming that Firefly is an ordinary girl (or Titania) who found the armor and decided to wear it. Lemme go over my counterarguments for both these points, and then I'll get to my own theory.
After her first "death" to the meme, Black Swan helps us investigate what Firefly was doing in the hotel, and a certain line of dialogue raised many questions. To quote:
Firefly: "Let's get going..."(Here Black Swan proposes that she's with another person)
Firefly: "Why did you...!? This isn't what we agreed on..."(Here Black Swan proposes that somebody betrayed her)
Firefly: "Mecha...!? Why..."(Here Black Swan points out it's weird of her to say 'mecha')
Thing is, Black Swan's memory magic never shows us this second person, so we can only assume she's talking to the armor, right? Except... we've never seen her and Sam in the same place together. I know that sounds cheesy, but it's actually pretty big proof here. When she transforms into Sam, or back out of Firefly, the armor just appears and disappears in a bunch of flames. Of course it's probably that her transforming device is the reason why, but even without it there's a line in Genshin that could explain this too. In one of the Traveler's profile voicelines, Paimon confirms that weapons and personal items simply appearing out of nowhere is a regular thing that happens in-universe, and it's likely HSR uses this same rule. I don't think there's any hard evidence to suggest the armor even exists physically until she uses her transforming device, so we can rule out this mystery person being Sam.
IMO, it was probably more like an upset reaction to somebody else who brought up the 'mecha' thing first. Maybe something like this:
???: "Sorry Firefly, you can't go off-script. You have to activate your mecha."It could've been Silver Wolf on the phone, or maybe even Elio, but it doesn't really matter.
Firefly: "Mecha...!? Why..."
Another thing I've seen people argue is that her personality when we first meet Firefly in Golden Hour just doesn't match up with Sam. Voicelines from the Stellaron Hunters, dialogue from SW visiting the Express, and one of Blade's story chapters all describe him as the ruthless and cold-blooded muscle of the group, which is very different from the sweetheart tour guide we met. I think people can't understand how these two versions of her coexist, but they're not mutually exclusive at all. What if Sam's efficiency is because she dislikes being a weapon, and wants to get her jobs over with quickly? What if her mission in Penacony is Firefly's first chance to actually explore herself as "Firefly", without her scripts asking her to cause destruction? It's not like she's living a double life, more like she's still in the process of growing into her actual self. Maybe texting us stickers from Blade's phone was a baby step for her to experiment, since TB hadn't met Sam yet and she could be less serious, or maybe her armor's fingers have trouble typing, who even knows?? I think the "inconsistencies" in her behavior can be explained pretty easily once you realize she's still figuring herself out, y'know?
There's also tons of dialogue before and after her reveal that implies she's pretty familiar with combat, too. Her accurate description of Sampo is the obvious one (that man is NOT 5'9 though), but she also mentions that a baseball bat isn't an efficient weapon, and later in the story if you picked the Hanu trial for the auditions thing, she complains about not having her armor, brings up that it'll be hard for her to let go of the bazooka, and compares Hanu's rocket launcher to something called the "Soaring Locust II" (some kind of weapon attachment for her armor maybe?), so it's pretty clear that she's not a stranger to fighting. I don't think she's just some ordinary girl who picked up the mecha.
Finally, there's an inconsistency between her and Sam when talking about dreams. On the balcony, Firefly describes her dream about the scorched earth and the sapling, while Sam outright says he was "born without the ability to 'dream'." Thanks to her upcoming light cone, we've got an answer to this problem:
"Dreams remained too distant for her, as she gazed into the infinite darkness. Even as she sensed her consciousness slipping away, her mind replayed the same lingering memories over and over again..."I think the simplest solution is that Firefly's 'dream' was a metaphor to explain her wish to the Trailblazer, like a visualization to help her and others understand those feelings. The light cone kinda implies she doesn't dream at all, instead she relives her memories from being in the Glamoth military. The rest of that paragraph goes on to describe a Swarm attack and her fellow Cavalryman dying around her without anybody to honor their sacrifice, which is a memory she'd only have if she fought alongside them.
So dreaming isn't an issue anymore, and her two personalities aren't mutually exclusive, and she wasn't talking to her armor in the hotel. But I hear you, none of that really proves she isn't Titania, right? Because at least the Empress has the same origin as the Iron Cavalry pilots... And that's a good point, but I've got evidence against it too.
According to Firefly's drip marketing, she was "Born as a weapon", and is "afflicted with the agony of Entropy Loss Syndrome due to genetic modification.", both of which line up perfectly with our understanding of the Cavalry pilots so far. One leaked relic says "Identical-looking warriors were birthed from the incubators", the rope says "the ruling council threw down the gauntlet and resolved to alter the essence of humanity", and even Firefly herself says "[Sam] is the cradle of my vitality, and the meaning of my birth." when asked about it in Dreamflux Reef. These statements only make sense if Firefly is one of these lab-grown humans, and literally born to pilot her armor.
If you're still not convinced, that line about Entropy Loss gives us another clue: since it's due to genetic modification, that means her "altered essence" is what causes it, so how exactly is she different from a regular human? Another leaked relic says "The armor deeply synchronized its sensory organs with that of the pilot", which is very weird phrasing until you remember that Welt told us Sam has superhuman perception after we got SW's message. That ability kinda contradicts everything Firefly said about her condition, so what if her genetic modifications are meant for that "synchronization"? Maybe it's supposed to increase combat effectiveness with some kind of symbiotic relationship between her and the armor? It definitely plays into more mecha anime tropes (NGE comes to mind), which she's already got a crazy amount of, and might even explain why she's naked while wearing her armor.
When she calls Sam the "cradle of [her] vitality", she means it's literally the only way she can guarantee her Entropy Loss won't flare up and cause her to dissociate. The armor keeps her grounded and conscious, even though it might be extremely painful to use it, given how Adin Rudd in the English dub almost seems to grunt out his lines, and how her kit and the boss' kit both include HP-draining mechanics. This is also why she appreciates the Dreamscape so much, as she told us in her secret balcony spot that she's able to "listen, and see, and touch, and think, and understand whatever I want with my body", as opposed to doing these things with Sam instead. Her cutscene with Blade suggests that it's not impossible for her to exit the armor, but I'm guessing she can't do this for long stretches of time, or that it comes with a risk of having her Entropy Loss worsen. The "icy medical cabin" she mentioned turned out to be Sam, after all.
This one's a bit more subjective, but I'll die on this hill so I might as well include it as a final argument. I honestly think her narrative themes benefit more if she's a regular Iron Cavalryman than if she's Titania. Her story is about an experimental soldier born to be a weapon, living only to kill bugs by the orders of a fake Empress she swore loyalty to, and never having a chance to experience life as a regular young girl. It's about recovering from war trauma, overcoming a medical condition and physical disability, and finally discovering an identity for herself instead of being defined by her use to other people. I'm so in love with this character concept, and while I plan to bankrupt myself over this girl no matter what direction Hoyo picks, I've got my fingers crossed that I'm right about her because it would be so amazing to see that story come to life about a character who stole my heart like this. ^w^
In conclusion? Firefly ≠ Titania, and I believe it's a more cohesive, impactful, and beautiful story if she's a soldier instead of an Empress.
Thank you for reading!
P.S. I'd love to hear anybody's thoughts in the comments, whether they agree with some of my points, or if they've got arguments of their own! Just remember to be civil, because at the end of the day we're all Firefly enjoyers and everybody's ideas are valid until we get more official information about her! :D
2024.05.14 00:39 Strong_Dependent5066 AITAH for saying happy birthday to my bsfs ex ?
I (F) have a best friend (F), basically wayyyy before me and my female girl best friend met I had a guy best friend.
When I met my gbsf (we’re gonna call her Lana and we’re gonna call her ex Alex) when I met Lana I was already best friends with Alex eventually Lana and Alex liked each other and ofc they told me they liked the other.
Lana told me she liked Alex and Alex told me he liked Lana so without selling the other out to them I got them together everything was perfect for 8 months until they started arguing, they would ask for my opinion and I opted to stay out of it. (Cause they’re both my bsfs tf I supposed to help you w?)
When they broke up it was so messy, tears, fighting,screaming, petty remarks , rumors, Lana threw milk on Alex at one point (just acting like children)
Anyways, recently it was Alex’s birthday I posted on my Snapchat “Happy birthday ”Alex” you’re a good friend and I’m grateful for you “ I said happy birthday because for my birthday he got me presents and said happy birthday to me I’m obviously gonna have fucking manners and be cordial?
Whatever whatever said happy birthday he said thank you, later in the day Lana swipes up Saying “crazy.” I said “I’m sorry, are you upset ?” She said “Ian even mad ts js weird you told me he was flirting with you and now you’re writing paragraphs about him?”
FIRSTLY, after they broke up he would try to flirt with me but I told him to shut it down and it makes me uncomfortable and he stopped and ofc I told her (that’s my bsf fuck?) but I’m sorry paragraphs about him? Baby I wrote 3 SENTENCE WORTH I WROTE 12 WORDS. And one of those words was tagging him.
Anyways she called me weird and said she wasn’t mad she was js finding it weird, but then Lana’s little sister texted me saying “why are you fucking writing paragraphs about him when yk how badly he hurt Lana” first of all it was 12 fucking words..I told her “it was a couple words he got me stuff and said happy birthday on my birthday all I said was happy birthday I don’t get the issue with this ?”
Lana’s little sister proceeded to ridicule me (she’s in 5th grade I’m not finna argue w a child 😂😂😂) and I js said okay, when this all started and Lana texted me she told me I sajd “I love you “ to him but I never did that was another girl so, what? Anyways our texts went like this
Me - “ Then I don’t remember saying I love you to him but on some real shit I’m sorry if I upset you n shit I would be mad too ik you deserve better n I rlly don’t wanna fight w you abt smth like this n I get where you’re coming from 100% you’re absolutely right n shi n honestly I’m sorry about making you feel like that I’m glad you told me and I’ll work to fix it At the end of the day you’re my bsf n I consider you a sister to me n you have every right to be mad I’ll give you space n shit to js think n be alone “
Lana - “okay well that’s still fucking weird”
Now here’s we’re I’m upset about, Lana is BEST FRIENDS WITH MY FUCKING EX.
My ex cheated on me, abused me, played w my feelings, barely committed to me, spread rumors about me etc. but Everytime he tries talking to her or play fighting her she play fights back or gets all giggly and laughs.
You’re mad at me for saying happy birthday but you wanna be friendly to someone who genuinely hurt me, I’m not saying he didn’t hurt her but I know everything that happened and I’m not finna put my homegirls business out there cause she still my day 1 idgaf but the beef was miscommunication over him play fighting girls.
I get you could be going through it but you not finna sit in my face and say I’m fucked up when you over here having Kumbaya moments.
Anyways sorry this js long but I genuinely love this girl I’ll take any advice or opinions you guys can give me I don’t wanna loose this girl I just can’t loose her she was with me when a loved one committed suicide she was with me when my dog died she’s been through it all with me
AITAH?
Edit 1 - I took someone’s advice and I told her she can’t control who I’m talking to but I understand why she wouldn’t like it I told her I’m uncomfortable with her being friends with my ex she proceeded to say im flipping the situation to make me look like the victim and lately she thinks I’m acting shady, weird and stuff I do is starting tk annoy her
For example she told me that when they broke up she thought I would have taken her side and completely cut him off she said she felt betrayed and that I was flirting with him because he doesn’t bring lunches to school (we’re juniors in high school) so I always offer some of my food (I always bring an extra yogurt or sandwhich or whatever I made that day because I know he’s gonna be hungry) and when I gave him my food she thought it was my “excuse to talk to him” I told her that’s ridiculous and I’d never let someone to hungry especially if I have extra food
I’ve been looking at her reposts on TikTok (yes I’m a stalker I js missssss my girlllll ) and she’s been reposting a bunch of stuff saying “these females doing me wrong” or js shit that says she got betrayed, when I made this post I was angry and needed to vent I worked out took my dog for a walk and now that I’m calm I’m not angry with her I’m just anxious she’s gonna end our friendship and I still don’t see the issue with me wishing someone a happy birthday I told her I was truly just trying to be cordial with him and that if nothing was going on between me and him before they dated nothings going to happen now ESPECIALLY if that’s her ex.
Plus Me and “Alex’s” friend (we’ll call him Leo) have been going on dates lately (dinners, picnics, watching movies at the others house, our families throwing like pool backyard stuff and inviting the other, etc ) so there’s quite literally nothing there between me and “Alex” “Leo”is a sweetheart and exactly my type “Alex” is the bipolar opposite of Leo but the two are best friends I told lana this and she said she wanted time and she didn’t know if she wanted to end the friendship with me because she quote on quote “Doesn’t know if she can trust me” and “doesn’t wanna interact with a potential snake”
She called me a potential snake..
I have no hard feelings towards Lana I’ve never been one to get hurt by words I just wanna let her get all her anger out she started getting disrespectful and I put my foot down and told her
“I know you’re angry but you have no fucking right to disrespect me when I’ve been nothing but logical and understanding with you I’ve tried getting your point and I’m sorry I caused you to hurt I really am but you can’t seem to calm down and be reasonable so please stop blowing my phone up and please only talk to me when you’re open to a logical unbiased conversation”
And I left it with that (I’ll fs give more updates)
submitted by Strong_Dependent5066 to AITAH [link] [comments]
When I met my gbsf (we’re gonna call her Lana and we’re gonna call her ex Alex) when I met Lana I was already best friends with Alex eventually Lana and Alex liked each other and ofc they told me they liked the other.
Lana told me she liked Alex and Alex told me he liked Lana so without selling the other out to them I got them together everything was perfect for 8 months until they started arguing, they would ask for my opinion and I opted to stay out of it. (Cause they’re both my bsfs tf I supposed to help you w?)
When they broke up it was so messy, tears, fighting,screaming, petty remarks , rumors, Lana threw milk on Alex at one point (just acting like children)
Anyways, recently it was Alex’s birthday I posted on my Snapchat “Happy birthday ”Alex” you’re a good friend and I’m grateful for you “ I said happy birthday because for my birthday he got me presents and said happy birthday to me I’m obviously gonna have fucking manners and be cordial?
Whatever whatever said happy birthday he said thank you, later in the day Lana swipes up Saying “crazy.” I said “I’m sorry, are you upset ?” She said “Ian even mad ts js weird you told me he was flirting with you and now you’re writing paragraphs about him?”
FIRSTLY, after they broke up he would try to flirt with me but I told him to shut it down and it makes me uncomfortable and he stopped and ofc I told her (that’s my bsf fuck?) but I’m sorry paragraphs about him? Baby I wrote 3 SENTENCE WORTH I WROTE 12 WORDS. And one of those words was tagging him.
Anyways she called me weird and said she wasn’t mad she was js finding it weird, but then Lana’s little sister texted me saying “why are you fucking writing paragraphs about him when yk how badly he hurt Lana” first of all it was 12 fucking words..I told her “it was a couple words he got me stuff and said happy birthday on my birthday all I said was happy birthday I don’t get the issue with this ?”
Lana’s little sister proceeded to ridicule me (she’s in 5th grade I’m not finna argue w a child 😂😂😂) and I js said okay, when this all started and Lana texted me she told me I sajd “I love you “ to him but I never did that was another girl so, what? Anyways our texts went like this
Me - “ Then I don’t remember saying I love you to him but on some real shit I’m sorry if I upset you n shit I would be mad too ik you deserve better n I rlly don’t wanna fight w you abt smth like this n I get where you’re coming from 100% you’re absolutely right n shi n honestly I’m sorry about making you feel like that I’m glad you told me and I’ll work to fix it At the end of the day you’re my bsf n I consider you a sister to me n you have every right to be mad I’ll give you space n shit to js think n be alone “
Lana - “okay well that’s still fucking weird”
Now here’s we’re I’m upset about, Lana is BEST FRIENDS WITH MY FUCKING EX.
My ex cheated on me, abused me, played w my feelings, barely committed to me, spread rumors about me etc. but Everytime he tries talking to her or play fighting her she play fights back or gets all giggly and laughs.
You’re mad at me for saying happy birthday but you wanna be friendly to someone who genuinely hurt me, I’m not saying he didn’t hurt her but I know everything that happened and I’m not finna put my homegirls business out there cause she still my day 1 idgaf but the beef was miscommunication over him play fighting girls.
I get you could be going through it but you not finna sit in my face and say I’m fucked up when you over here having Kumbaya moments.
Anyways sorry this js long but I genuinely love this girl I’ll take any advice or opinions you guys can give me I don’t wanna loose this girl I just can’t loose her she was with me when a loved one committed suicide she was with me when my dog died she’s been through it all with me
AITAH?
Edit 1 - I took someone’s advice and I told her she can’t control who I’m talking to but I understand why she wouldn’t like it I told her I’m uncomfortable with her being friends with my ex she proceeded to say im flipping the situation to make me look like the victim and lately she thinks I’m acting shady, weird and stuff I do is starting tk annoy her
For example she told me that when they broke up she thought I would have taken her side and completely cut him off she said she felt betrayed and that I was flirting with him because he doesn’t bring lunches to school (we’re juniors in high school) so I always offer some of my food (I always bring an extra yogurt or sandwhich or whatever I made that day because I know he’s gonna be hungry) and when I gave him my food she thought it was my “excuse to talk to him” I told her that’s ridiculous and I’d never let someone to hungry especially if I have extra food
I’ve been looking at her reposts on TikTok (yes I’m a stalker I js missssss my girlllll ) and she’s been reposting a bunch of stuff saying “these females doing me wrong” or js shit that says she got betrayed, when I made this post I was angry and needed to vent I worked out took my dog for a walk and now that I’m calm I’m not angry with her I’m just anxious she’s gonna end our friendship and I still don’t see the issue with me wishing someone a happy birthday I told her I was truly just trying to be cordial with him and that if nothing was going on between me and him before they dated nothings going to happen now ESPECIALLY if that’s her ex.
Plus Me and “Alex’s” friend (we’ll call him Leo) have been going on dates lately (dinners, picnics, watching movies at the others house, our families throwing like pool backyard stuff and inviting the other, etc ) so there’s quite literally nothing there between me and “Alex” “Leo”is a sweetheart and exactly my type “Alex” is the bipolar opposite of Leo but the two are best friends I told lana this and she said she wanted time and she didn’t know if she wanted to end the friendship with me because she quote on quote “Doesn’t know if she can trust me” and “doesn’t wanna interact with a potential snake”
She called me a potential snake..
I have no hard feelings towards Lana I’ve never been one to get hurt by words I just wanna let her get all her anger out she started getting disrespectful and I put my foot down and told her
“I know you’re angry but you have no fucking right to disrespect me when I’ve been nothing but logical and understanding with you I’ve tried getting your point and I’m sorry I caused you to hurt I really am but you can’t seem to calm down and be reasonable so please stop blowing my phone up and please only talk to me when you’re open to a logical unbiased conversation”
And I left it with that (I’ll fs give more updates)
2024.05.13 22:44 C3PH4L0SP0R1N "A Shadow on the Soul"
This is an expansion of a recent post and also incorporates some ideas from this theory (by u/ndependent-Design17). Throughout the series the reader is repeatedly reminded that "only death can pay for life" — that magic, especially powerful magic, comes at great cost.
This phrase or variations of this phrase are repeated by Melisandre, Mirri, etc. at various points throughout the series. That which follows is a highly speculative theory on the nature of the cost of magic in the series. Specifically, that souls are central to the exercise of magic and can be used as magic currency.
What happens after we die? Is there some part of us that lives on or do we simply cease to exist. These are fundamental questions that are essentially unanswerable in life but not in ASOIAF. The reader is given a point-of-view account of death in the prologue of ADWD. After unsuccessfully attempting to steal the body of Thistle, a wildling spearwife, Varamyr dies and briefly becomes a disembodied consciousness:
Afterward his "spirit," or soul, is eventually transferred into a body of wolf and he begins his second life. This event, and the process of skin-changing more generally, appears to involve projection or transfer of a soul from one body into another. The process of projecting or transferring souls to either animal vessels or the weirwoods is central to the magic of the Children of the Forest.
After death a "shadow on the soul" of the Singers remain in the crows. The soul of Orell is also described as living on in the body of his eagle after his death.
This process appears to take two forms: the soul can be temporarily projected from one body into another (e.g., as happens when Bran skin-changes into Hodor) or can be permanently transferred as is described in the separate examples above.
These transferred souls merge with their recipient, at least to some degree, and may decay over time:
Bran is provided with similar warnings about the danger of spending too much time in Summer's skin by Jojen.
The Bran that appears to Jon-Ghost in the vision in ACOK is also likely the lingering soul of a non-contemporary Bran, contained in the weirwoods and communicating from the future.
There is more information about this in the Time Traveling Bran series. Briefly, the version of Bran in this vision does not appear to be contemporaneous because likes the dark, is able to open Jon's third eye, smells of death, etc. (This is well outside of the scope of this theory however.)
To answer this let us examine one of the most concrete example of magic in the series, the use or exchange of Stannis Baratheon's "life-fire" in order for Melisandre to manifest the shadows used to kill Renly Baratheon and Courtney Penrose.
According to this explanation, the cost of producing these shadow appears to have been part of his "life-fire," or soul. The shadow is specifically described as having the shape Stannis supporting this. Whether this applies to other types of magic — specifically blood magic or fire magic — is less clear but shadow magic very much appears to require the use of souls.
This type of exchange is also directly referenced in the story of the Night's King provided by Old Nan:
Stannis is described by Davos afterward as follows:
Asha later describes Stannis as appearing life a "man with one foot in the grave."
These descriptions seem appropriate for a character that has lost part of their "life-fire" or soul.
Throughout the series Stannis is forced to make a series of increasingly difficult decisions. The most significant of these decisions regards the fate of his nephew, Eric Storm. Melisandre repeatedly urges him to "give [her] the boy," presumably to be burned, but is rebuffed by Stannis.
Is the life of this bastard boy worth the lives of millions that would die if the Others break through the Wall? Making a deal with the devil and literally selling his soul in pursuit of some greater good seems very appropriate for his character, thematically. The description of his flesh turning to ash in this vision is representative also supports this interpretation.
Following this ritual all of the mentioned individuals do die but do so as the part of separate conspiracies (e.g., Robb Stark is betrayed by the Freys and Boltons, Joffrey Baratheon by Littlefinger and the Tyrells, etc.) which were already in place. It is left intentionally ambiguous by the author but it does not appear that the ritual meaningfully contributed to their deaths.
The creation of the shadows is said by Melisandre to have required part of Stannis' "life-fire" or soul. Could it be that the leech burning ritual was unsuccessful because blood alone is not sufficient as a sacrifice?
These forms of magic are frequently described in the community as "shadow magic" and "blood magic." These concepts — "fire and blood" and "flame and shadow" — are highly associated with one another in the text:
I speculate that these are different expressions of the same concept; that all of these fall under the general umbrella of fire magic and share common principles. "Fire consumes and in the end there's nothing left."
The introduction of shadow magic in the series is provided above with Mirri Max Duur. Following this ritual Drogo is described as a lifeless husk:
It has previously been speculated that Mirri "reverse skin-changed" Drogo (e.g., "strength of the mount go into the rider, strength of the beast go into the man."). The description provided is less consistent with a horse soul inhabiting a human body than it is with the complete or near-complete absence of a soul. It appears more likely in retrospect that Mirri sacrificed part of Drogo's soul to summon the shadows and likely as a means to kill Daenerys' unborn child.
There is a paucity of information on the reanimation of the dead in the series. The resurrection of Beric Dondarrion, for example, appears to be different in fundamental ways from that of the wights or Cold Hands. (We are potentially given a point-of-view account of this process if you accept that Victarion died in ADWD.)
Thoros is also described as appearing very different after performing this ritual several times in a way that is not entirely dissimilar to the changes in Stannis’ appearance referenced above.
Thoros attributes these changes to his renewed devotion to the Red God and spending "a year in the wild" as above although he is not exactly forthcoming with Arya about the resurrection process. It is also likely that he does not entirely understand what specifically is being exchanged here.
Later he describes Beric giving the "kiss of life" to the corpse of Catelyn Stark:
Notably, this process produces a reanimated Catelyn (a.k.a. Lady Stoneheart). The soul of Beric, or at least whatever is left of his soul at this point in the series, is consumed in order to resurrect Catelyn and not transferred.
This is again highly speculative but it seems reasonable to consider that these cold shadows are not "ice demons" or "ice zombies" but are in fact ghosts, the spirits or souls of men that are bound to the earth through magic by the Children of the Forest. (The textual evidence of the creation of the Others by the Children has previously been discussed at length in the community in separate posts.) "Fire consumes, but cold preserves."
This would explain several of the unusual characteristics of the Others described by Tormund:
A reasonable interpretation of this information is that the Others are present during the day, at least in some capacity, and are only able to assume corporeal form at night.
The Others are also described as "going lightly upon the snow" which would also supports the idea that they are ghosts:
EDIT: edited several times to address formatting issues
submitted by C3PH4L0SP0R1N to pureasoiaf [link] [comments]
"Only death can pay for life, my lord. A great gift requires a great sacrifice.”Davos, ASOS
This phrase or variations of this phrase are repeated by Melisandre, Mirri, etc. at various points throughout the series. That which follows is a highly speculative theory on the nature of the cost of magic in the series. Specifically, that souls are central to the exercise of magic and can be used as magic currency.
1. establishing the concept of the soul
Oh, to be sure, there is much we do not understand. The years pass in their hundreds and their thousands, and what does any man see of life but a few summers, a few winters? We look at mountains and call them eternal, and so they seem… but in the course of time, mountains rise and fall, rivers change their courses, stars fall from the sky, and great cities sink beneath the sea. Even gods die, we think. Everything changes.Bran, AGOT
What happens after we die? Is there some part of us that lives on or do we simply cease to exist. These are fundamental questions that are essentially unanswerable in life but not in ASOIAF. The reader is given a point-of-view account of death in the prologue of ADWD. After unsuccessfully attempting to steal the body of Thistle, a wildling spearwife, Varamyr dies and briefly becomes a disembodied consciousness:
The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that’s in it, he thought, exulting.Prologue, ADWD
Afterward his "spirit," or soul, is eventually transferred into a body of wolf and he begins his second life. This event, and the process of skin-changing more generally, appears to involve projection or transfer of a soul from one body into another. The process of projecting or transferring souls to either animal vessels or the weirwoods is central to the magic of the Children of the Forest.
“Someone else was in the raven,” he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. “Some girl. I felt her.”Bran, ADWD
“A woman, of those who sing the song of earth,” his teacher said. “Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy’s flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you.”
"Do all the birds have singers in them?"
“All,” Lord Brynden said.
After death a "shadow on the soul" of the Singers remain in the crows. The soul of Orell is also described as living on in the body of his eagle after his death.
This process appears to take two forms: the soul can be temporarily projected from one body into another (e.g., as happens when Bran skin-changes into Hodor) or can be permanently transferred as is described in the separate examples above.
These transferred souls merge with their recipient, at least to some degree, and may decay over time:
"The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you’re part of him. Both of you will change.”Prologue, ADWD
Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. “Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won’t like what you’d become.” Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. “Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again.
...
"They say you forget," Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death.
"When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."
Bran is provided with similar warnings about the danger of spending too much time in Summer's skin by Jojen.
The Bran that appears to Jon-Ghost in the vision in ACOK is also likely the lingering soul of a non-contemporary Bran, contained in the weirwoods and communicating from the future.
The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes?Jon, ACOK
Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.
He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.
"Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this." And the tree reached down and touched him.
There is more information about this in the Time Traveling Bran series. Briefly, the version of Bran in this vision does not appear to be contemporaneous because likes the dark, is able to open Jon's third eye, smells of death, etc. (This is well outside of the scope of this theory however.)
2. shadow magic requires souls
As above the reader is repeatedly reminded throughout the series that "only death can pay for life." What is specifically being sacrificed, though? Is the magic being fueled by the blood of the sacrificed or by something else?To answer this let us examine one of the most concrete example of magic in the series, the use or exchange of Stannis Baratheon's "life-fire" in order for Melisandre to manifest the shadows used to kill Renly Baratheon and Courtney Penrose.
Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him."Davos, ASOS
Melisandre moved closer.
"With another man, though... a man whose flames still burn hot and high... if you truly wish to serve your king's cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make..."
According to this explanation, the cost of producing these shadow appears to have been part of his "life-fire," or soul. The shadow is specifically described as having the shape Stannis supporting this. Whether this applies to other types of magic — specifically blood magic or fire magic — is less clear but shadow magic very much appears to require the use of souls.
This type of exchange is also directly referenced in the story of the Night's King provided by Old Nan:
A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well. (Credit to u/DigLost5791 for this reference.)Bran, ASOS
Stannis is described by Davos afterward as follows:
The look of him was a shock. He seemed ten years older than the man that Davos had left at Storm’s End when he set sail for the Blackwater and the battle that would be their undoing. The king’s close-cropped beard was spiderwebbed with grey hairs, and he had dropped two stone or more of weight. He had never been a fleshy man, but now the bones moved beneath his skin like spears, fighting to cut free. Even his crown seemed too large for his head. His eyes were blue pits lost in deep hollows, and the shape of a skull could be seen beneath his face.Davos, ASOS
Asha later describes Stannis as appearing life a "man with one foot in the grave."
What little flesh he’d carried on his tall, spare frame at Deepwood Motte had melted away during the march. The shape of his skull could be seen under his skin, and his jaw was clenched so hard Asha feared his teeth might shatter.Asha, ADWD
These descriptions seem appropriate for a character that has lost part of their "life-fire" or soul.
Throughout the series Stannis is forced to make a series of increasingly difficult decisions. The most significant of these decisions regards the fate of his nephew, Eric Storm. Melisandre repeatedly urges him to "give [her] the boy," presumably to be burned, but is rebuffed by Stannis.
“I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning… burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?” The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King’s Landing.Davos, ASOS
"…what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?”
“Everything,” said Davos, softly.
Is the life of this bastard boy worth the lives of millions that would die if the Others break through the Wall? Making a deal with the devil and literally selling his soul in pursuit of some greater good seems very appropriate for his character, thematically. The description of his flesh turning to ash in this vision is representative also supports this interpretation.
3. blood and fire magic
As opposed to the creation of the shadows described above, we are also provided an example of so-called blood magic in the leech burning ritual.“Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon.”Davos, ASOS
...
Melisandre bowed her head stiffly, and said, “As my king commands.” Reaching up her left sleeve with her right hand, she flung a handful of powder into the brazier. The coals roared. As pale flames writhed atop them, the red woman retrieved the silver dish and brought it to the king. Davos watched her lift the lid. Beneath were three large black leeches, fat with blood. The boy’s blood, Davos knew. A king’s blood. Stannis stretched forth a hand, and his fingers closed around one of the leeches.
“Say the name,” Melisandre commanded.
Following this ritual all of the mentioned individuals do die but do so as the part of separate conspiracies (e.g., Robb Stark is betrayed by the Freys and Boltons, Joffrey Baratheon by Littlefinger and the Tyrells, etc.) which were already in place. It is left intentionally ambiguous by the author but it does not appear that the ritual meaningfully contributed to their deaths.
The creation of the shadows is said by Melisandre to have required part of Stannis' "life-fire" or soul. Could it be that the leech burning ritual was unsuccessful because blood alone is not sufficient as a sacrifice?
These forms of magic are frequently described in the community as "shadow magic" and "blood magic." These concepts — "fire and blood" and "flame and shadow" — are highly associated with one another in the text:
“Shadow?" Davos felt his flesh prickling. "A shadow is a thing of darkness."Davos, ACOK
”You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows."
I speculate that these are different expressions of the same concept; that all of these fall under the general umbrella of fire magic and share common principles. "Fire consumes and in the end there's nothing left."
4. dancing shadows
The tent was aglow with the light of braziers within. Through the blood-spattered sandsilk, she glimpsed shadows moving.Daenerys, AGOT
Mirri Maz Duur was dancing, and not alone.
...
No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn’t, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn’t they see?
Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.
“The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed,” Irri said. “She said so, I heard her.”
“Yes,” Doreah agreed, “I heard her too.”
No, she shouted, or perhaps she only thought it, for no whisper of sound escaped her lips. She was being carried. Her eyes opened to gaze up at a flat dead sky, black and bleak and starless. Please, no. The sound of Mirri Maz Duur’s voice grew louder, until it filled the world. The shapes! She screamed. The dancers!
Ser Jorah carried her inside the tent.
The introduction of shadow magic in the series is provided above with Mirri Max Duur. Following this ritual Drogo is described as a lifeless husk:
"He seems to like the warmth, Princess," Ser Jorah said. "His eyes follow the sun, though he does not see it. He can walk after a fashion. He will go where you lead him, but no farther. He will eat if you put food in his mouth, drink if you dribble water on his lips."Daenerys, AGOT
It has previously been speculated that Mirri "reverse skin-changed" Drogo (e.g., "strength of the mount go into the rider, strength of the beast go into the man."). The description provided is less consistent with a horse soul inhabiting a human body than it is with the complete or near-complete absence of a soul. It appears more likely in retrospect that Mirri sacrificed part of Drogo's soul to summon the shadows and likely as a means to kill Daenerys' unborn child.
“The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust."Daenerys, AGOT
5. reanimation
If "only death can pay for life" and souls are used as a form of magical currency how does one explain the reanimation or resurrection process?There is a paucity of information on the reanimation of the dead in the series. The resurrection of Beric Dondarrion, for example, appears to be different in fundamental ways from that of the wights or Cold Hands. (We are potentially given a point-of-view account of this process if you accept that Victarion died in ADWD.)
“Thoros, how many times have you brought me back now?”There is no immediately identifiable magical cost for these "kisses of life," at least at first glance. Thoros later tells us that he breathed part of his "flames" or soul into Beric:
The red priest bowed his head. “It is R’hllor who brings you back, my lord. The Lord of Light. I am only his instrument.”
“How many times?” Lord Beric insisted.
“Six,” Thoros said reluctantly.
“And each time is harder. You have grown reckless, my lord. Is death so very sweet?”
Arya, ASOS
“That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god's own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord's servants as they died." (Credit to u/watchersontheweb for providing this quote in the initial thread.)Arya, ASOS
Thoros is also described as appearing very different after performing this ritual several times in a way that is not entirely dissimilar to the changes in Stannis’ appearance referenced above.
“Here’s the wizard, skinny squirrel. You’ll get your answers now.”Arya, ASOS
He pointed toward the fire, where Tom Sevenstrings stood talking to a tall thin man with oddments of old armor buckled on over his ratty pink robes. That can’t be Thoros of Myr. Arya remembered the red priest as fat, with a smooth face and a shiny bald head. This man had a droopy face and a full head of shaggy grey hair.
...
“Thoros of Myr. You used to shave your head.”
“To betoken a humble heart, but in truth my heart was vain. Besides, I lost my razor in the woods.” The priest slapped his belly. “I am less than I was, but more. A year in the wild will melt the flesh off a man. Would that I could find a tailor to take in my skin. I might look young again, and pretty maids would shower me with kisses.”
Thoros attributes these changes to his renewed devotion to the Red God and spending "a year in the wild" as above although he is not exactly forthcoming with Arya about the resurrection process. It is also likely that he does not entirely understand what specifically is being exchanged here.
Later he describes Beric giving the "kiss of life" to the corpse of Catelyn Stark:
“The Freys slashed her throat from ear to ear. When we found her by the river she was three days dead. Harwin begged me to give her the kiss of life, but it had been too long. I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And… she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose.”Brienne, AFFC
Notably, this process produces a reanimated Catelyn (a.k.a. Lady Stoneheart). The soul of Beric, or at least whatever is left of his soul at this point in the series, is consumed in order to resurrect Catelyn and not transferred.
6. cold shadows (wild speculation)
The terms "white shadows," "pale shadows," and "cold shadows" are repeated used to describe the Others. The Others are also highly associated with ghosts — the spirits or souls of the dead bound to the earth. (The forrest in which they are introduced is literally called the Haunted Forrest.)The Others made no sound.Prologue, AGOT
Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone. Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers. Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat. Perhaps he was wrong. Perhaps it had only been a bird, a reflection on the snow, some trick of the moonlight. What had he seen, after all?
“Will, where are you?” Ser Waymar called up. “Can you see anything?” He was turning in a slow circle, suddenly wary, his sword in hand. He must have felt them, as Will felt them. There was nothing to see. “Answer me! Why is it so cold?” It was cold.
Shivering, Will clung more tightly to his perch. His face pressed hard against the trunk of the sentinel. He could feel the sweet, sticky sap on his cheek. A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took. Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss. ...
The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.
This is again highly speculative but it seems reasonable to consider that these cold shadows are not "ice demons" or "ice zombies" but are in fact ghosts, the spirits or souls of men that are bound to the earth through magic by the Children of the Forest. (The textual evidence of the creation of the Others by the Children has previously been discussed at length in the community in separate posts.) "Fire consumes, but cold preserves."
This would explain several of the unusual characteristics of the Others described by Tormund:
“Tormund,” Jon said, as they watched four old women pull a cartful of children toward the gate, “tell me of our foe. I would know all there is to know of the Others.”Jon, ADWD
The wildling rubbed his mouth. “Not here,” he mumbled, “not this side o’ your Wall.” The old man glanced uneasily toward the trees in their white mantles. “They’re never far, you know. They won’t come out by day, not when that old sun’s shining, but don’t think that means they went away. Shadows never go away. Might be you don’t see them, but they’re always clinging to your heels.”
...
Tormund turned back.
"You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up… how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?"
A reasonable interpretation of this information is that the Others are present during the day, at least in some capacity, and are only able to assume corporeal form at night.
The Others are also described as "going lightly upon the snow" which would also supports the idea that they are ghosts:
“The white walkers go lightly on the snow,” the ranger said. “You’ll find no prints to mark their passage.”Samwell, ASOS
7. conclusions
This highly speculative theory attempts to reconcile several seemingly disparate concepts in the series related to magic, namely the actual nature of magical sacrifice ("only death can pay for life") and shadows or shadow magic. More specifically, I suggest that souls are the primary magical currency and can be consumed using fire magic to summon shadows, create glamours, etc. I also speculate that similar processes took place during Mirri Maz Duur's shadow-binding ritual in AGOT and during the repeated resurrections of Berric Dondarrion in ASOS. I further suggest that the Others are ghosts, the spirits or souls of the dead bound to the earth.EDIT: edited several times to address formatting issues
2024.05.13 22:37 C3PH4L0SP0R1N (spoilers extended) "A Shadow on the Soul"
This is an expansion of a recent post and also incorporates some ideas from this theory (by u/ndependent-Design17). Throughout the series the reader is repeatedly reminded that "only death can pay for life" — that magic, especially powerful magic, comes at great cost.
This phrase or variations of this phrase are repeated by Melisandre, Mirri, etc. at various points throughout the series. That which follows is a highly speculative theory on the nature of the cost of magic in the series. Specifically, that souls are central to the exercise of magic and can be used as magic currency.
What happens after we die? Is there some part of us that lives on or do we simply cease to exist. These are fundamental questions that are essentially unanswerable in life but not in ASOIAF. The reader is given a point-of-view account of death in the prologue of ADWD. After unsuccessfully attempting to steal the body of Thistle, a wildling spearwife, Varamyr dies and briefly becomes a disembodied consciousness:
Afterward his "spirit," or soul, is eventually transferred into a body of wolf and he begins his second life. This event, and the process of skin-changing more generally, appears to involve projection or transfer of a soul from one body into another. The process of projecting or transferring souls to either animal vessels or the weirwoods is central to the magic of the Children of the Forest.
After death a "shadow on the soul" of the Singers remain in the crows. The soul of Orell is also described as living on in the body of his eagle after his death.
This process appears to take two forms: the soul can be temporarily projected from one body into another (e.g., as happens when Bran skin-changes into Hodor) or can be permanently transferred as is described in the separate examples above.
These transferred souls merge with their recipient, at least to some degree, and may decay over time:
Bran is provided with similar warnings about the danger of spending too much time in Summer's skin by Jojen.
The Bran that appears to Jon-Ghost in the vision in ACOK is also likely the lingering soul of a non-contemporary Bran, contained in the weirwoods and communicating from the future.
There is more information about this in the Time Traveling Bran series. Briefly, the version of Bran in this vision does not appear to be contemporaneous because likes the dark, is able to open Jon's third eye, smells of death, etc. (This is well outside of the scope of this theory however.)
To answer this let us examine one of the most concrete example of magic in the series, the use or exchange of Stannis Baratheon's "life-fire" in order for Melisandre to manifest the shadows used to kill Renly Baratheon and Courtney Penrose.
According to this explanation, the cost of producing these shadow appears to have been part of his "life-fire," or soul. The shadow is specifically described as having the shape Stannis supporting this. Whether this applies to other types of magic — specifically blood magic or fire magic — is less clear but shadow magic very much appears to require the use of souls.
This type of exchange is also directly referenced in the story of the Night's King provided by Old Nan:
Stannis is described by Davos afterward as follows:
Asha later describes Stannis as appearing life a "man with one foot in the grave."
These descriptions seem appropriate for a character that has lost part of their "life-fire" or soul.
Throughout the series Stannis is forced to make a series of increasingly difficult decisions. The most significant of these decisions regards the fate of his nephew, Eric Storm. Melisandre repeatedly urges him to "give [her] the boy," presumably to be burned, but is rebuffed by Stannis.
Is the life of this bastard boy worth the lives of millions that would die if the Others break through the Wall? Making a deal with the devil and literally selling his soul in pursuit of some greater good seems very appropriate for his character, thematically. The description of his flesh turning to ash in this vision is representative also supports this interpretation.
Following this ritual all of the mentioned individuals do die but do so as the part of separate conspiracies (e.g., Robb Stark is betrayed by the Freys and Boltons, Joffrey Baratheon by Littlefinger and the Tyrells, etc.) which were already in place. It is left intentionally ambiguous by the author but it does not appear that the ritual meaningfully contributed to their deaths.
The creation of the shadows is said by Melisandre to have required part of Stannis' "life-fire" or soul. Could it be that the leech burning ritual was unsuccessful because blood alone is not sufficient as a sacrifice?
These forms of magic are frequently described in the community as "shadow magic" and "blood magic." These concepts — "fire and blood" and "flame and shadow" — are highly associated with one another in the text:
I speculate that these are different expressions of the same concept; that all of these fall under the general umbrella of fire magic and share common principles. "Fire consumes and in the end there's nothing left."
The introduction of shadow magic in the series is provided above with Mirri Max Duur. Following this ritual Drogo is described as a lifeless husk:
It has previously been speculated that Mirri "reverse skin-changed" Drogo (e.g., "strength of the mount go into the rider, strength of the beast go into the man."). The description provided is less consistent with a horse soul inhabiting a human body than it is with the complete or near-complete absence of a soul. It appears more likely in retrospect that Mirri sacrificed part of Drogo's soul to summon the shadows and likely as a means to kill Daenerys' unborn child.
There is a paucity of information on the reanimation of the dead in the series. The resurrection of Beric Dondarrion, for example, appears to be different in fundamental ways from that of the wights or Cold Hands. (We are potentially given a point-of-view account of this process if you accept that Victarion died in ADWD.)
Thoros is also described as appearing very different after performing this ritual several times in a way that is not entirely dissimilar to the changes in Stannis’ appearance referenced above.
Thoros attributes these changes to his renewed devotion to the Red God and spending "a year in the wild" as above although he is not exactly forthcoming with Arya about the resurrection process. It is also likely that he does not entirely understand what specifically is being exchanged here.
Later he describes Beric giving the "kiss of life" to the corpse of Catelyn Stark:
Notably, this process produces a reanimated Catelyn (a.k.a. Lady Stoneheart). The soul of Beric, or at least whatever is left of his soul at this point in the series, is consumed in order to resurrect Catelyn and not transferred.
This is again highly speculative but it seems reasonable to consider that these cold shadows are not "ice demons" or "ice zombies" but are in fact ghosts, the spirits or souls of men that are bound to the earth through magic by the Children of the Forest. (The textual evidence of the creation of the Others by the Children is linked in a separate post here.) "Fire consumes, but cold preserves."
This would explain several of the unusual characteristics of the Others described by Tormund:
A reasonable interpretation of this information is that the Others are present during the day, at least in some capacity, and are only able to assume corporeal form at night.
The Others are also described as "going lightly upon the snow" which would also supports the idea that they are ghosts:
EDIT: edited several times to address formatting issues
submitted by C3PH4L0SP0R1N to asoiaf [link] [comments]
"Only death can pay for life, my lord. A great gift requires a great sacrifice.”Davos, ASOS
This phrase or variations of this phrase are repeated by Melisandre, Mirri, etc. at various points throughout the series. That which follows is a highly speculative theory on the nature of the cost of magic in the series. Specifically, that souls are central to the exercise of magic and can be used as magic currency.
1. establishing the concept of the soul
Oh, to be sure, there is much we do not understand. The years pass in their hundreds and their thousands, and what does any man see of life but a few summers, a few winters? We look at mountains and call them eternal, and so they seem… but in the course of time, mountains rise and fall, rivers change their courses, stars fall from the sky, and great cities sink beneath the sea. Even gods die, we think. Everything changes.Bran, AGOT
What happens after we die? Is there some part of us that lives on or do we simply cease to exist. These are fundamental questions that are essentially unanswerable in life but not in ASOIAF. The reader is given a point-of-view account of death in the prologue of ADWD. After unsuccessfully attempting to steal the body of Thistle, a wildling spearwife, Varamyr dies and briefly becomes a disembodied consciousness:
The white world turned and fell away. For a moment it was as if he were inside the weirwood, gazing out through carved red eyes as a dying man twitched feebly on the ground and a madwoman danced blind and bloody underneath the moon, weeping red tears and ripping at her clothes. Then both were gone and he was rising, melting, his spirit borne on some cold wind. He was in the snow and in the clouds, he was a sparrow, a squirrel, an oak. A horned owl flew silently between his trees, hunting a hare; Varamyr was inside the owl, inside the hare, inside the trees. Deep below the frozen ground, earthworms burrowed blindly in the dark, and he was them as well. I am the wood, and everything that’s in it, he thought, exulting.Prologue, ADWD
Afterward his "spirit," or soul, is eventually transferred into a body of wolf and he begins his second life. This event, and the process of skin-changing more generally, appears to involve projection or transfer of a soul from one body into another. The process of projecting or transferring souls to either animal vessels or the weirwoods is central to the magic of the Children of the Forest.
“Someone else was in the raven,” he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. “Some girl. I felt her.”Bran, ADWD
“A woman, of those who sing the song of earth,” his teacher said. “Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy’s flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you.”
"Do all the birds have singers in them?"
“All,” Lord Brynden said.
After death a "shadow on the soul" of the Singers remain in the crows. The soul of Orell is also described as living on in the body of his eagle after his death.
This process appears to take two forms: the soul can be temporarily projected from one body into another (e.g., as happens when Bran skin-changes into Hodor) or can be permanently transferred as is described in the separate examples above.
These transferred souls merge with their recipient, at least to some degree, and may decay over time:
"The wolf is part of you from that day on, and you’re part of him. Both of you will change.”Prologue, ADWD
Other beasts were best left alone, the hunter had declared. Cats were vain and cruel, always ready to turn on you. Elk and deer were prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man became a coward. Bears, boars, badgers, weasels … Haggon did not hold with such. “Some skins you never want to wear, boy. You won’t like what you’d become.” Birds were the worst, to hear him tell it. “Men were not meant to leave the earth. Spend too much time in the clouds and you never want to come back down again.
...
"They say you forget," Haggon had told him, a few weeks before his own death.
"When the man's flesh dies, his spirit lives on inside the beast, but every day his memory fades, and the beast becomes a little less a warg, a little more a wolf, until nothing of the man is left and only the beast remains."
Bran is provided with similar warnings about the danger of spending too much time in Summer's skin by Jojen.
The Bran that appears to Jon-Ghost in the vision in ACOK is also likely the lingering soul of a non-contemporary Bran, contained in the weirwoods and communicating from the future.
The weirwood had his brother’s face. Had his brother always had three eyes?Jon, ACOK
Not always, came the silent shout. Not before the crow.
He sniffed at the bark, smelled wolf and tree and boy, but behind that there were other scents, the rich brown smell of warm earth and the hard grey smell of stone and something else, something terrible. Death, he knew. He was smelling death. He cringed back, his hair bristling, and bared his fangs.
"Don’t be afraid, I like it in the dark. No one can see you, but you can see them. But first you have to open your eyes. See? Like this." And the tree reached down and touched him.
There is more information about this in the Time Traveling Bran series. Briefly, the version of Bran in this vision does not appear to be contemporaneous because likes the dark, is able to open Jon's third eye, smells of death, etc. (This is well outside of the scope of this theory however.)
2. shadow magic requires souls
As above the reader is repeatedly reminded throughout the series that "only death can pay for life." What is specifically being sacrificed, though? Is the magic being fueled by the blood of the sacrificed or by something else?To answer this let us examine one of the most concrete example of magic in the series, the use or exchange of Stannis Baratheon's "life-fire" in order for Melisandre to manifest the shadows used to kill Renly Baratheon and Courtney Penrose.
Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him."Davos, ASOS
Melisandre moved closer.
"With another man, though... a man whose flames still burn hot and high... if you truly wish to serve your king's cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make..."
According to this explanation, the cost of producing these shadow appears to have been part of his "life-fire," or soul. The shadow is specifically described as having the shape Stannis supporting this. Whether this applies to other types of magic — specifically blood magic or fire magic — is less clear but shadow magic very much appears to require the use of souls.
This type of exchange is also directly referenced in the story of the Night's King provided by Old Nan:
A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well. (Credit to u/DigLost5791 for this reference.)Bran, ASOS
Stannis is described by Davos afterward as follows:
The look of him was a shock. He seemed ten years older than the man that Davos had left at Storm’s End when he set sail for the Blackwater and the battle that would be their undoing. The king’s close-cropped beard was spiderwebbed with grey hairs, and he had dropped two stone or more of weight. He had never been a fleshy man, but now the bones moved beneath his skin like spears, fighting to cut free. Even his crown seemed too large for his head. His eyes were blue pits lost in deep hollows, and the shape of a skull could be seen beneath his face.Davos, ASOS
Asha later describes Stannis as appearing life a "man with one foot in the grave."
What little flesh he’d carried on his tall, spare frame at Deepwood Motte had melted away during the march. The shape of his skull could be seen under his skin, and his jaw was clenched so hard Asha feared his teeth might shatter.Asha, ADWD
These descriptions seem appropriate for a character that has lost part of their "life-fire" or soul.
Throughout the series Stannis is forced to make a series of increasingly difficult decisions. The most significant of these decisions regards the fate of his nephew, Eric Storm. Melisandre repeatedly urges him to "give [her] the boy," presumably to be burned, but is rebuffed by Stannis.
“I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning… burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh and turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?” The king moved, so his shadow fell upon King’s Landing.Davos, ASOS
"…what is the life of one bastard boy against a kingdom?”
“Everything,” said Davos, softly.
Is the life of this bastard boy worth the lives of millions that would die if the Others break through the Wall? Making a deal with the devil and literally selling his soul in pursuit of some greater good seems very appropriate for his character, thematically. The description of his flesh turning to ash in this vision is representative also supports this interpretation.
3. blood and fire magic
As opposed to the creation of the shadows described above, we are also provided an example of so-called blood magic in the leech burning ritual.“Give me the boy, Your Grace. It is the surer way. The better way. Give me the boy and I shall wake the stone dragon.”Davos, ASOS
...
Melisandre bowed her head stiffly, and said, “As my king commands.” Reaching up her left sleeve with her right hand, she flung a handful of powder into the brazier. The coals roared. As pale flames writhed atop them, the red woman retrieved the silver dish and brought it to the king. Davos watched her lift the lid. Beneath were three large black leeches, fat with blood. The boy’s blood, Davos knew. A king’s blood. Stannis stretched forth a hand, and his fingers closed around one of the leeches.
“Say the name,” Melisandre commanded.
Following this ritual all of the mentioned individuals do die but do so as the part of separate conspiracies (e.g., Robb Stark is betrayed by the Freys and Boltons, Joffrey Baratheon by Littlefinger and the Tyrells, etc.) which were already in place. It is left intentionally ambiguous by the author but it does not appear that the ritual meaningfully contributed to their deaths.
The creation of the shadows is said by Melisandre to have required part of Stannis' "life-fire" or soul. Could it be that the leech burning ritual was unsuccessful because blood alone is not sufficient as a sacrifice?
These forms of magic are frequently described in the community as "shadow magic" and "blood magic." These concepts — "fire and blood" and "flame and shadow" — are highly associated with one another in the text:
“Shadow?" Davos felt his flesh prickling. "A shadow is a thing of darkness."Davos, ACOK
”You are more ignorant than a child, ser knight. There are no shadows in the dark. Shadows are the servants of light, the children of fire. The brightest flame casts the darkest shadows."
I speculate that these are different expressions of the same concept; that all of these fall under the general umbrella of fire magic and share common principles. "Fire consumes and in the end there's nothing left."
4. dancing shadows
The tent was aglow with the light of braziers within. Through the blood-spattered sandsilk, she glimpsed shadows moving.Daenerys, AGOT
Mirri Maz Duur was dancing, and not alone.
...
No, Dany wanted to say, no, not that, you mustn’t, but when she opened her mouth, a long wail of pain escaped, and the sweat broke over her skin. What was wrong with them, couldn’t they see?
Inside the tent the shapes were dancing, circling the brazier and the bloody bath, dark against the sandsilk, and some did not look human. She glimpsed the shadow of a great wolf, and another like a man wreathed in flames.
“The Lamb Woman knows the secrets of the birthing bed,” Irri said. “She said so, I heard her.”
“Yes,” Doreah agreed, “I heard her too.”
No, she shouted, or perhaps she only thought it, for no whisper of sound escaped her lips. She was being carried. Her eyes opened to gaze up at a flat dead sky, black and bleak and starless. Please, no. The sound of Mirri Maz Duur’s voice grew louder, until it filled the world. The shapes! She screamed. The dancers!
Ser Jorah carried her inside the tent.
The introduction of shadow magic in the series is provided above with Mirri Max Duur. Following this ritual Drogo is described as a lifeless husk:
"He seems to like the warmth, Princess," Ser Jorah said. "His eyes follow the sun, though he does not see it. He can walk after a fashion. He will go where you lead him, but no farther. He will eat if you put food in his mouth, drink if you dribble water on his lips."Daenerys, AGOT
It has previously been speculated that Mirri "reverse skin-changed" Drogo (e.g., "strength of the mount go into the rider, strength of the beast go into the man."). The description provided is less consistent with a horse soul inhabiting a human body than it is with the complete or near-complete absence of a soul. It appears more likely in retrospect that Mirri sacrificed part of Drogo's soul to summon the shadows and likely as a means to kill Daenerys' unborn child.
“The stallion who mounts the world will burn no cities now. His khalasar shall trample no nations into dust."Daenerys, AGOT
5. reanimation
If "only death can pay for life" and souls are used as a form of magical currency how does one explain the reanimation or resurrection process?There is a paucity of information on the reanimation of the dead in the series. The resurrection of Beric Dondarrion, for example, appears to be different in fundamental ways from that of the wights or Cold Hands. (We are potentially given a point-of-view account of this process if you accept that Victarion died in ADWD.)
“Thoros, how many times have you brought me back now?”There is no immediately identifiable magical cost for these "kisses of life," at least at first glance. Thoros later tells us that he breathed part of his "flames" or soul into Beric:
The red priest bowed his head. “It is R’hllor who brings you back, my lord. The Lord of Light. I am only his instrument.”
“How many times?” Lord Beric insisted.
“Six,” Thoros said reluctantly.
“And each time is harder. You have grown reckless, my lord. Is death so very sweet?”
Arya, ASOS
“That first time, his lordship had a hole right through him and blood in his mouth, I knew there was no hope. So when his poor torn chest stopped moving, I gave him the good god's own kiss to send him on his way. I filled my mouth with fire and breathed the flames inside him, down his throat to lungs and heart and soul. The last kiss it is called, and many a time I saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord's servants as they died." (Credit to u/watchersontheweb for providing this quote in the initial thread.)Arya, ASOS
Thoros is also described as appearing very different after performing this ritual several times in a way that is not entirely dissimilar to the changes in Stannis’ appearance referenced above.
“Here’s the wizard, skinny squirrel. You’ll get your answers now.”Arya, ASOS
He pointed toward the fire, where Tom Sevenstrings stood talking to a tall thin man with oddments of old armor buckled on over his ratty pink robes. That can’t be Thoros of Myr. Arya remembered the red priest as fat, with a smooth face and a shiny bald head. This man had a droopy face and a full head of shaggy grey hair.
...
“Thoros of Myr. You used to shave your head.”
“To betoken a humble heart, but in truth my heart was vain. Besides, I lost my razor in the woods.” The priest slapped his belly. “I am less than I was, but more. A year in the wild will melt the flesh off a man. Would that I could find a tailor to take in my skin. I might look young again, and pretty maids would shower me with kisses.”
Thoros attributes these changes to his renewed devotion to the Red God and spending "a year in the wild" as above although he is not exactly forthcoming with Arya about the resurrection process. It is also likely that he does not entirely understand what specifically is being exchanged here.
Later he describes Beric giving the "kiss of life" to the corpse of Catelyn Stark:
“The Freys slashed her throat from ear to ear. When we found her by the river she was three days dead. Harwin begged me to give her the kiss of life, but it had been too long. I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And… she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose.”Brienne, AFFC
Notably, this process produces a reanimated Catelyn (a.k.a. Lady Stoneheart). The soul of Beric, or at least whatever is left of his soul at this point in the series, is consumed in order to resurrect Catelyn and not transferred.
6. cold shadows (wild speculation)
The terms "white shadows," "pale shadows," and "cold shadows" are repeated used to describe the Others. The Others are also highly associated with ghosts — the spirits or souls of the dead bound to the earth. (The forrest in which they are introduced is literally called the Haunted Forrest.)The Others made no sound.Prologue, AGOT
Will saw movement from the corner of his eye. Pale shapes gliding through the wood. He turned his head, glimpsed a white shadow in the darkness. Then it was gone. Branches stirred gently in the wind, scratching at one another with wooden fingers. Will opened his mouth to call down a warning, and the words seemed to freeze in his throat. Perhaps he was wrong. Perhaps it had only been a bird, a reflection on the snow, some trick of the moonlight. What had he seen, after all?
“Will, where are you?” Ser Waymar called up. “Can you see anything?” He was turning in a slow circle, suddenly wary, his sword in hand. He must have felt them, as Will felt them. There was nothing to see. “Answer me! Why is it so cold?” It was cold.
Shivering, Will clung more tightly to his perch. His face pressed hard against the trunk of the sentinel. He could feel the sweet, sticky sap on his cheek. A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took. Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss. ...
The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.
This is again highly speculative but it seems reasonable to consider that these cold shadows are not "ice demons" or "ice zombies" but are in fact ghosts, the spirits or souls of men that are bound to the earth through magic by the Children of the Forest. (The textual evidence of the creation of the Others by the Children is linked in a separate post here.) "Fire consumes, but cold preserves."
This would explain several of the unusual characteristics of the Others described by Tormund:
“Tormund,” Jon said, as they watched four old women pull a cartful of children toward the gate, “tell me of our foe. I would know all there is to know of the Others.”Jon, ADWD
The wildling rubbed his mouth. “Not here,” he mumbled, “not this side o’ your Wall.” The old man glanced uneasily toward the trees in their white mantles. “They’re never far, you know. They won’t come out by day, not when that old sun’s shining, but don’t think that means they went away. Shadows never go away. Might be you don’t see them, but they’re always clinging to your heels.”
...
Tormund turned back.
"You know nothing. You killed a dead man, aye, I heard. Mance killed a hundred. A man can fight the dead, but when their masters come, when the white mists rise up… how do you fight a mist, crow? Shadows with teeth … air so cold it hurts to breathe, like a knife inside your chest … you do not know, you cannot know … can your sword cut cold?"
A reasonable interpretation of this information is that the Others are present during the day, at least in some capacity, and are only able to assume corporeal form at night.
The Others are also described as "going lightly upon the snow" which would also supports the idea that they are ghosts:
“The white walkers go lightly on the snow,” the ranger said. “You’ll find no prints to mark their passage.”Samwell, ASOS
7. conclusions
This highly speculative theory attempts to reconcile several seemingly disparate concepts in the series related to magic, namely the actual nature of magical sacrifice ("only death can pay for life") and shadows or shadow magic. More specifically, I suggest that souls are the primary magical currency and can be consumed using fire magic to summon shadows, create glamours, etc. I also speculate that similar processes took place during Mirri Maz Duur's shadow-binding ritual in AGOT and during the repeated resurrections of Berric Dondarrion in ASOS. I further suggest that the Others are ghosts, the spirits or souls of the dead bound to the earth.EDIT: edited several times to address formatting issues
2024.05.13 19:58 multze Altaïr's Memory seals ARE LYING TO US. (AC1, AC2, AC Revelations and AC Mirage)
Hold your horses for a second, let me clarify a couple of things.
Im going to go through each Altaïr memory and explain why certain things support my conclusion and then explain why Altaïr may have done this.
Btw this will be a long read, so get ready.
MEMORY 1
I recommend you pull up a youtube video of all the AC Revelations Altaïr Cutscenes if you want to understand what i will be saying better.
This mission takes place before the events of AC1.
In this mission you kill a Templar who has ben pretending to be an Assassin. In the confession scene, the Templar says: "You put too much faith in the hearts of men, Altaïr. The Templars know the truth. Humans are weak, base, and petty."
Altaïr responds: "No. Our Creed is evidence to the contrary."
After the confession scene, Al Mualim says: "You offered him a chance to salvage his dignity, Why?"
Altaïr responds: "No man should pass from this world without knowing some kindness."
Al Mualim says: But he shunned your graces.
Altair responds: As was his right.
For anybody who paid attention to the story in AC1, there's a couple of MASSIVE problems with these conversations.
In these conversations Altaïr is extremely wise. He believes whole heartedly in the Assassin's Creed and seems to know who the templars are. This directly contradicts AC1, because Altaïr only learns about the templar brotherhood halfway into the game, and remember this memory takes place BEFORE AC1. In AC1 Altair was an extremely arrogant, rude and cocky man, the direct opposite of the man we see in this "memory" seal.
There are three possibilities, Either Altaïr was lying through his teeth the entire time to get that sweet master Assassin promotion from Al Mualim and somehow forgot about the templars, or he was Actually an extremely wise man who somehow became an arse between this memory and AC1 and once again somehow forgot about the templars (maybe fell on his head or something?) OR, the most likely possibility that would explain all of these inconsistencies, there is something fundamentally wrong with this memory.
Some context before i cover memory 2, it's one of the conversations during the Al Mualim fight at the end of AC1, so feel free to scross past this bit if you remember the conversation well, if you don't then read it, because it's extremely important.
During Altaïr's confrontation of Al Mualim, Altaïr says: "You lied to me, called Robert's goal foul when all along it was yours aswell."
Al Mualim says: "I've never been much good at sharing"
Altaïr says: "You won't succed, others will find the strength to stand against you."
Al Mualim says: "And this is why so long as men maintain freewill, there can be no peace."
Altaïr says: "I killed the last man who spoke as such"
Al Mualim says: "Bold words boy, but just words."
Altaïr says: "Then let me go, I'll put words into action."
All Mualim laughs
"Tell me master, why not make me like the other Assassin's, why allow me to retain my mind?"
Al Mualim says: "Who you are, and what you do are twined too tight together, to rob you of one would've deprived me of the other. And those templars had to die. sigh but the truth is, i did try, in my study, when i showed you the treasure, but are not like the others, you saw though the illustration."
Altaïr says: "Illusion?"
Al Mualim says: "That's all it's ever done, this templar treasure, this piece of eden this word of god. Do you understand now? The red sea was never parted, water never turned to wine, it was not the machinations of Eris, that spawned the trojan war, but THIS! Illusions! All of them."
Altaïr says: "What you plan is no less an Illusion, to force men to follow you against their will"
Al Mualim says: "Is it any less real than the phantoms the Saracens and Crusaders follow now? Those kraven Gods who retreat from this world that men might slaughter one another in their names? They live amongst an illusion already, im simply giving them another, one that demands less blood."
Altaïr says: "Atleast they choose these phantoms."
Al Mualim says: "Oh do they? Aside from the occasional convert or heritic?
Altaïr says: "It isn't right!"
Al Mualim says: "Ah, and now logic has left you, in it's place, you imbrace emotion, i am disappointed."
Altaïr says: "what's to be done then?"
Al Mualim says: "You will not follow me, and i cannot compell you."
Altaïr says: "And you refuse to give up this evil scheme!"
Al Mualim says: "It seems then we are at an impass."
Altaïr says: "No, we are at an end."
Al Mualim says. "Ah i will miss you Altaïr, you were my very best student."
they then fight
MEMORY 2:
In the brief AC1 "flashback," which shows brief parts of the Al Mualim fight, there is a new quote that Altaïr says after he killed Al Mualim, not present in AC1.
"Forgive me Mentor, but the apple corrupted you. And through you it would have corrupted us... for us to live, you had to die."
Later, Abbas asks him: "you believe Al Mualim fell under [The Apple's] spell?" To which Altaïr responds: "I do. Today he used the Apple to enslave Masyaf. You saw that for yourself."
Let me explain why Al Mualim WASN'T corrupted by the Apple. He was colluding with the templars before he had possession of the apple. He betrayed the templars, and sent Altaïr after them to secure the apple for himself. He knew the effects the apple had on people. We know this due to his collusion with the templars, being privy to their plans as Robert tells us, and being aware of the experments being performed to simulate the apple's effects by Garnier de Naplouse. He clearly had motive, believing that as long as men had freewill there could be no peace, which is why he probably collaborated with the templars in the first place, and he had planned this for awhile as evidenced by that conversation between him and Altaïr.
As is also evidenced by that conversation, Altaïr did not believe Al Mualim had been bewitched by the Apple by the time they were finished talking, Al Mualim was clear and direct about his plans and motivations prior to acquiring the apple during their conversation and everything he said is consistent with what robert told us. And once he no longer had the apple, during the confession scene, he doubled down on what he believed, so it's clear that in from Altaïr's perspective atleast he was of sound mind.
But all of a sudden in Revelations Altaïr is asking for forgiveness and saying the apple corrupted him? Neither of these things make sense so either Altaïr is forgetting everything that just happened, or something is wrong with this memory.
MEMORY 3 and 4:
I love these memories, but they make some changes from the AC1 Novelisation The Secret Crusade, that i really don't like, Im going to do my best to explain what happens in the novel briefly.
When Altaïr leaves to face Genghis Khan, he places Malik, his enemy turned best friend and the Rafiq of the Jerusalem Bureau, in charge of Masyaf and the Assassin's. After a few years Abbas kills Altaïr's youngest son and blames it on Malik, staging a coup, putting himself in charge, and imprisoning Malik. Altaïr returns from Asia and eventually finds Malik who tells him the truth, Malik then dies. Then Altaïr confronts Abbas and is driven out of Masyaf. When he returns to masyaf after years in exile, it isn't a random group of Assassin's he meets and immediately gets help from, it is Maliks son, also named Malik.
(Im going to call the father Malik Sr and the son Malik Jr)
The stuff with Malik Sr happened before the third mission starts, so this isn't a massive deal, im just upset it wasn't included.
Malik Jr on the other hand, as well as all of the things he does, and his conversations with Altaïr are completely gone.
Before Revelations release, this was the canon conclusion to Altaïr's story, some of Altaïr's Codex from AC2 is taken directly from this book. The book exists in the lore of Assassin's Creed.
So either the book is no longer canon, which can't be true because the codex pages from AC2 are from this book. Or, only certain parts of the book are canon (boring answer.) Or either Niccolo Polo or Altaïr are lying about the existence of Malik Jr (but y tho?) OR the memories are altered in some way.
MEMORIES 5 AND 6:
These memories are perfect, there's nothing about them i need to critique for this theory, however remember the voices that Altaïr hears in memory 6, it will be important later.
SOME EVIDENCE FROM AC MIRAGE???
let me explain what the memory seal are. They are only called "memory seals" by humans, we have no idea what the ISU would've called these devices. Altaïr found these seals below Alamut, which is where he spent his exile in the years between memories 3 and 4.
In Assassin's Creed Mirage we learn that the ISU chamber below Alamut was an ISU prison, and the seals are prison records. In Mirage we only see one of these seals, which contains a memory of Basim being tortured by "the jailer."
The Aesir, Odin, Freya, Tyr, and the other norse gods ruled what would later become Scandinavia, before the catastrophe.
Basim who now has loki's memories and personality, says at the end of AC Mirage: "i shed my skin once, in another time, another place. But i am whole again. I remember. And as for those who thought to bind me, should any of them still walk the earth, i so look forward to our reunion."
This indicates to me, that Basim was imprisoned by Odin and friends, and the prison must belong to them, meaning that Iran was also under Aesir control? i suppose? Modern AC has kinda screwed the continuity but i digress.
This means that this prison, which had clear prisoner mistreatment, to the point that it gave loki, and likely many others PTSD and probably far worse problems was being ran by a dictatorship (with Odin being the dictator.)
Now what im about to say is pure speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.
These "memory" seals can probably be tampered with by the people in power in order to make up false confessions and maintain control over whatever narrative they want people to believe and by extention, the people.
The templars use the animus to record memories, but then release "inhanced" versions of these memories to the public, like with the abstergo entertainment game "Liberation." Assassin's Creed Liberation is literally an in universe game made by Abstergo. In the game a hacker will reveal to you how to unlock the true ending, the true version of a memory that was altered by abstergo. So is it really so far fetched to claim that the ISU were capable of doing something similar to this with their seals?
In the last two Altaïr memories, and the memory in Mirage, Altaïr and the Jailer are both using the seals as the memory is being recorded. However, in the first four memories Altaïr doesn't have the seals.
He had obtained them by the time we get to the fourth one, but it's unclear if he had them on him, and if he did, whether or not he was live recording the memory, however due to the inconsistencies in that memory and the fact we dont see him hold one in that memory i don't believe he did.
CONCLUSION:
As I've pointed out there are several issues with the continuity of these memories and AC1, AC2 and The Secret Crusade book. All of these issues are solved if we accept that the first four seals are not accurate memories.
Okay, but what's the reason they aren't accurate then?
There's two possibilities.
Firstly in Altaïr's old age he is misremembering important details of these older memories, which is why the later, more recent memories are more accurate. We know Altaïr is literally hearing voices by the time we get to his last memory, so is it really far fetched to suggest he may have a touch of dementia?
The second possibility, is that Altaïr has intentionally manipulated these memories.
The first question you might ask is, how would he even do that? Well I'll answer your question with another one: How do you even record a memory on a seal in the first place? I mean there's no buttons or instruction manual. I think both of these questions have the same answer, either the apple told him, or he figured it out.
Ok, so it's possible that if these seals can be manipulated like you claim, then Altaïr would easily learn how, i mean the apple showed him how to make a glock, so it's likely, but, erm, buckaroo, WHY WOULD ALTAÏR MANIPULATE THESE MEMORIES??? The answer is simple.
The first memory teaches compassion for all humans.
The second one teaches that the Apple can corrupt a man even as wise as Al Mualim.
The fourth one teaches that rousing the people to help achieve your goals will always work better than trying to do it alone.
These are the memories with the most inconsistencies, and this is because these memories have been altered in order to teach whatever future Assassin that finds them the lessons they will need to lead a Brotherhood. These lessons are ones Ezio has already learned by the time he finds them, so for him they are more about reflecting on his own life. It's also worth noting that Ezio taught many of Altaïr's lessons to Shao Jun.
I've wrote this in my notes app so apologies if the formatting isn't the best. Btw i came up with this myself, to my knowledge nobody has posted a theory similar to this. If you want to use my theory message me or something to tell me :) Im going to turn this into a video tommorow anyways, credit is appreciated.
So there you have it, thats my evidence, and that's my conclusion, what do ya'll think?
submitted by multze to assassinscreed [link] [comments]
Im going to go through each Altaïr memory and explain why certain things support my conclusion and then explain why Altaïr may have done this.
Btw this will be a long read, so get ready.
MEMORY 1
I recommend you pull up a youtube video of all the AC Revelations Altaïr Cutscenes if you want to understand what i will be saying better.
This mission takes place before the events of AC1.
In this mission you kill a Templar who has ben pretending to be an Assassin. In the confession scene, the Templar says: "You put too much faith in the hearts of men, Altaïr. The Templars know the truth. Humans are weak, base, and petty."
Altaïr responds: "No. Our Creed is evidence to the contrary."
After the confession scene, Al Mualim says: "You offered him a chance to salvage his dignity, Why?"
Altaïr responds: "No man should pass from this world without knowing some kindness."
Al Mualim says: But he shunned your graces.
Altair responds: As was his right.
For anybody who paid attention to the story in AC1, there's a couple of MASSIVE problems with these conversations.
In these conversations Altaïr is extremely wise. He believes whole heartedly in the Assassin's Creed and seems to know who the templars are. This directly contradicts AC1, because Altaïr only learns about the templar brotherhood halfway into the game, and remember this memory takes place BEFORE AC1. In AC1 Altair was an extremely arrogant, rude and cocky man, the direct opposite of the man we see in this "memory" seal.
There are three possibilities, Either Altaïr was lying through his teeth the entire time to get that sweet master Assassin promotion from Al Mualim and somehow forgot about the templars, or he was Actually an extremely wise man who somehow became an arse between this memory and AC1 and once again somehow forgot about the templars (maybe fell on his head or something?) OR, the most likely possibility that would explain all of these inconsistencies, there is something fundamentally wrong with this memory.
Some context before i cover memory 2, it's one of the conversations during the Al Mualim fight at the end of AC1, so feel free to scross past this bit if you remember the conversation well, if you don't then read it, because it's extremely important.
During Altaïr's confrontation of Al Mualim, Altaïr says: "You lied to me, called Robert's goal foul when all along it was yours aswell."
Al Mualim says: "I've never been much good at sharing"
Altaïr says: "You won't succed, others will find the strength to stand against you."
Al Mualim says: "And this is why so long as men maintain freewill, there can be no peace."
Altaïr says: "I killed the last man who spoke as such"
Al Mualim says: "Bold words boy, but just words."
Altaïr says: "Then let me go, I'll put words into action."
All Mualim laughs
"Tell me master, why not make me like the other Assassin's, why allow me to retain my mind?"
Al Mualim says: "Who you are, and what you do are twined too tight together, to rob you of one would've deprived me of the other. And those templars had to die. sigh but the truth is, i did try, in my study, when i showed you the treasure, but are not like the others, you saw though the illustration."
Altaïr says: "Illusion?"
Al Mualim says: "That's all it's ever done, this templar treasure, this piece of eden this word of god. Do you understand now? The red sea was never parted, water never turned to wine, it was not the machinations of Eris, that spawned the trojan war, but THIS! Illusions! All of them."
Altaïr says: "What you plan is no less an Illusion, to force men to follow you against their will"
Al Mualim says: "Is it any less real than the phantoms the Saracens and Crusaders follow now? Those kraven Gods who retreat from this world that men might slaughter one another in their names? They live amongst an illusion already, im simply giving them another, one that demands less blood."
Altaïr says: "Atleast they choose these phantoms."
Al Mualim says: "Oh do they? Aside from the occasional convert or heritic?
Altaïr says: "It isn't right!"
Al Mualim says: "Ah, and now logic has left you, in it's place, you imbrace emotion, i am disappointed."
Altaïr says: "what's to be done then?"
Al Mualim says: "You will not follow me, and i cannot compell you."
Altaïr says: "And you refuse to give up this evil scheme!"
Al Mualim says: "It seems then we are at an impass."
Altaïr says: "No, we are at an end."
Al Mualim says. "Ah i will miss you Altaïr, you were my very best student."
they then fight
MEMORY 2:
In the brief AC1 "flashback," which shows brief parts of the Al Mualim fight, there is a new quote that Altaïr says after he killed Al Mualim, not present in AC1.
"Forgive me Mentor, but the apple corrupted you. And through you it would have corrupted us... for us to live, you had to die."
Later, Abbas asks him: "you believe Al Mualim fell under [The Apple's] spell?" To which Altaïr responds: "I do. Today he used the Apple to enslave Masyaf. You saw that for yourself."
Let me explain why Al Mualim WASN'T corrupted by the Apple. He was colluding with the templars before he had possession of the apple. He betrayed the templars, and sent Altaïr after them to secure the apple for himself. He knew the effects the apple had on people. We know this due to his collusion with the templars, being privy to their plans as Robert tells us, and being aware of the experments being performed to simulate the apple's effects by Garnier de Naplouse. He clearly had motive, believing that as long as men had freewill there could be no peace, which is why he probably collaborated with the templars in the first place, and he had planned this for awhile as evidenced by that conversation between him and Altaïr.
As is also evidenced by that conversation, Altaïr did not believe Al Mualim had been bewitched by the Apple by the time they were finished talking, Al Mualim was clear and direct about his plans and motivations prior to acquiring the apple during their conversation and everything he said is consistent with what robert told us. And once he no longer had the apple, during the confession scene, he doubled down on what he believed, so it's clear that in from Altaïr's perspective atleast he was of sound mind.
But all of a sudden in Revelations Altaïr is asking for forgiveness and saying the apple corrupted him? Neither of these things make sense so either Altaïr is forgetting everything that just happened, or something is wrong with this memory.
MEMORY 3 and 4:
I love these memories, but they make some changes from the AC1 Novelisation The Secret Crusade, that i really don't like, Im going to do my best to explain what happens in the novel briefly.
When Altaïr leaves to face Genghis Khan, he places Malik, his enemy turned best friend and the Rafiq of the Jerusalem Bureau, in charge of Masyaf and the Assassin's. After a few years Abbas kills Altaïr's youngest son and blames it on Malik, staging a coup, putting himself in charge, and imprisoning Malik. Altaïr returns from Asia and eventually finds Malik who tells him the truth, Malik then dies. Then Altaïr confronts Abbas and is driven out of Masyaf. When he returns to masyaf after years in exile, it isn't a random group of Assassin's he meets and immediately gets help from, it is Maliks son, also named Malik.
(Im going to call the father Malik Sr and the son Malik Jr)
The stuff with Malik Sr happened before the third mission starts, so this isn't a massive deal, im just upset it wasn't included.
Malik Jr on the other hand, as well as all of the things he does, and his conversations with Altaïr are completely gone.
Before Revelations release, this was the canon conclusion to Altaïr's story, some of Altaïr's Codex from AC2 is taken directly from this book. The book exists in the lore of Assassin's Creed.
So either the book is no longer canon, which can't be true because the codex pages from AC2 are from this book. Or, only certain parts of the book are canon (boring answer.) Or either Niccolo Polo or Altaïr are lying about the existence of Malik Jr (but y tho?) OR the memories are altered in some way.
MEMORIES 5 AND 6:
These memories are perfect, there's nothing about them i need to critique for this theory, however remember the voices that Altaïr hears in memory 6, it will be important later.
SOME EVIDENCE FROM AC MIRAGE???
let me explain what the memory seal are. They are only called "memory seals" by humans, we have no idea what the ISU would've called these devices. Altaïr found these seals below Alamut, which is where he spent his exile in the years between memories 3 and 4.
In Assassin's Creed Mirage we learn that the ISU chamber below Alamut was an ISU prison, and the seals are prison records. In Mirage we only see one of these seals, which contains a memory of Basim being tortured by "the jailer."
The Aesir, Odin, Freya, Tyr, and the other norse gods ruled what would later become Scandinavia, before the catastrophe.
Basim who now has loki's memories and personality, says at the end of AC Mirage: "i shed my skin once, in another time, another place. But i am whole again. I remember. And as for those who thought to bind me, should any of them still walk the earth, i so look forward to our reunion."
This indicates to me, that Basim was imprisoned by Odin and friends, and the prison must belong to them, meaning that Iran was also under Aesir control? i suppose? Modern AC has kinda screwed the continuity but i digress.
This means that this prison, which had clear prisoner mistreatment, to the point that it gave loki, and likely many others PTSD and probably far worse problems was being ran by a dictatorship (with Odin being the dictator.)
Now what im about to say is pure speculation, so take it with a grain of salt.
These "memory" seals can probably be tampered with by the people in power in order to make up false confessions and maintain control over whatever narrative they want people to believe and by extention, the people.
The templars use the animus to record memories, but then release "inhanced" versions of these memories to the public, like with the abstergo entertainment game "Liberation." Assassin's Creed Liberation is literally an in universe game made by Abstergo. In the game a hacker will reveal to you how to unlock the true ending, the true version of a memory that was altered by abstergo. So is it really so far fetched to claim that the ISU were capable of doing something similar to this with their seals?
In the last two Altaïr memories, and the memory in Mirage, Altaïr and the Jailer are both using the seals as the memory is being recorded. However, in the first four memories Altaïr doesn't have the seals.
He had obtained them by the time we get to the fourth one, but it's unclear if he had them on him, and if he did, whether or not he was live recording the memory, however due to the inconsistencies in that memory and the fact we dont see him hold one in that memory i don't believe he did.
CONCLUSION:
As I've pointed out there are several issues with the continuity of these memories and AC1, AC2 and The Secret Crusade book. All of these issues are solved if we accept that the first four seals are not accurate memories.
Okay, but what's the reason they aren't accurate then?
There's two possibilities.
Firstly in Altaïr's old age he is misremembering important details of these older memories, which is why the later, more recent memories are more accurate. We know Altaïr is literally hearing voices by the time we get to his last memory, so is it really far fetched to suggest he may have a touch of dementia?
The second possibility, is that Altaïr has intentionally manipulated these memories.
The first question you might ask is, how would he even do that? Well I'll answer your question with another one: How do you even record a memory on a seal in the first place? I mean there's no buttons or instruction manual. I think both of these questions have the same answer, either the apple told him, or he figured it out.
Ok, so it's possible that if these seals can be manipulated like you claim, then Altaïr would easily learn how, i mean the apple showed him how to make a glock, so it's likely, but, erm, buckaroo, WHY WOULD ALTAÏR MANIPULATE THESE MEMORIES??? The answer is simple.
The first memory teaches compassion for all humans.
The second one teaches that the Apple can corrupt a man even as wise as Al Mualim.
The fourth one teaches that rousing the people to help achieve your goals will always work better than trying to do it alone.
These are the memories with the most inconsistencies, and this is because these memories have been altered in order to teach whatever future Assassin that finds them the lessons they will need to lead a Brotherhood. These lessons are ones Ezio has already learned by the time he finds them, so for him they are more about reflecting on his own life. It's also worth noting that Ezio taught many of Altaïr's lessons to Shao Jun.
I've wrote this in my notes app so apologies if the formatting isn't the best. Btw i came up with this myself, to my knowledge nobody has posted a theory similar to this. If you want to use my theory message me or something to tell me :) Im going to turn this into a video tommorow anyways, credit is appreciated.
So there you have it, thats my evidence, and that's my conclusion, what do ya'll think?
2024.05.13 17:38 Andromeda_Kane Having your cake and eating it too: Adora and Pseudo-advocacy
everything that follows is my own opinion based on my perceptions, and shouldn't be taken as the ultimate truth or fact. I do not and cannot know the content of someone's heart or head
Disclaimer: Adora raising funds for a family in Palestine IS a good thing. Yes, we have some questions on the legitimacy, and it is on adora to make sure it's safe, but if the money is ending up in the hands of someone in need, then i will never degrade the results, even if i critique the how and the why
Let's start with Adora's most recent video, which both betrays her shocking lack of education, and how incredibly unserious she is about helping the family she 'adopted'.
I encourage you to watch it so you know I'm not misrepresentating it
It depicts Haley Baylee in the gaudy dress she wore to the met gala saying the famous quote Marie Antionette (I'm confident i spelled this right, sorry to the rich people fandom if i didn't) never said "let them eat cake".
this quote is attributed as a taunt to those who made it to their gates during part of the french revolution. Those people were starving, without the bread that was a staple of their food. Very clearly "let them eat cake" is not a genuine nor gracious response to "I'm starving and i need bread". Sorry for the EXTREMELY brief summary of an EXTREMELY complex affair*
Adora has Haley Baylee set in front of emergency relief tents that are supposed to be aiding Palestinian refugees. The video then cuts to her gofundme screenshot of the family she's 'adopted'.
The implication of the video CLEARLY being "let [this family] eat cake" the cake being the funds go flee.
This clearly demonstrates that A) she doesn't know the fate of the original person who [didn't] say this, 2) she doesn't understand the snobbish skull duggery that this quote represents AND b) she doesn't realize she's accurately representing how completely disconnected she is from the people she's attempting to fundraise for.
Adora, i will remind you Marie had a french kiss with a guillotine shortly after this quote "occured".
Not to mention, removing the tactlessness of the video in question, the video itself doesn't do anything. It won't maintain attention, it won't benefit her movement, it doesn't effectively make a pathos based argument. That video will not "pull at the heartstrings" and likely took her no more than ten minutes to make.
Her complete laziness is fucking shocking.
"I have a vagina" girl, what? This is what people talk about when they point out "[cis] women wouldn't make a topic like this". Bro, this isn't going to challenge anyone's "problematic ideologies". You are only ever going to have two arguments to your opps. Intersex conditions (still remaining uneducated and without advocacy for those who experience it) and just the definition of vagina.
You will not convince anyone because you're incapable of making a point. This is literally just a shock value background.
Adora ALSO pointed out both in her own discord and her live that she wants to focus on her own experiences. Which isn't going to benefit the groups she continues to leave behind or expressly harms herself.
On a side note, the met gala being compared to the Capitol in hunger games is SO APT, and i don't think adora realizes she not only lives in the Capitol, she's Caesar Flickerman.
submitted by Andromeda_Kane to adorable_SNARK [link] [comments]
Disclaimer: Adora raising funds for a family in Palestine IS a good thing. Yes, we have some questions on the legitimacy, and it is on adora to make sure it's safe, but if the money is ending up in the hands of someone in need, then i will never degrade the results, even if i critique the how and the why
Let's start with Adora's most recent video, which both betrays her shocking lack of education, and how incredibly unserious she is about helping the family she 'adopted'.
I encourage you to watch it so you know I'm not misrepresentating it
It depicts Haley Baylee in the gaudy dress she wore to the met gala saying the famous quote Marie Antionette (I'm confident i spelled this right, sorry to the rich people fandom if i didn't) never said "let them eat cake".
this quote is attributed as a taunt to those who made it to their gates during part of the french revolution. Those people were starving, without the bread that was a staple of their food. Very clearly "let them eat cake" is not a genuine nor gracious response to "I'm starving and i need bread". Sorry for the EXTREMELY brief summary of an EXTREMELY complex affair*
Adora has Haley Baylee set in front of emergency relief tents that are supposed to be aiding Palestinian refugees. The video then cuts to her gofundme screenshot of the family she's 'adopted'.
The implication of the video CLEARLY being "let [this family] eat cake" the cake being the funds go flee.
This clearly demonstrates that A) she doesn't know the fate of the original person who [didn't] say this, 2) she doesn't understand the snobbish skull duggery that this quote represents AND b) she doesn't realize she's accurately representing how completely disconnected she is from the people she's attempting to fundraise for.
Adora, i will remind you Marie had a french kiss with a guillotine shortly after this quote "occured".
Not to mention, removing the tactlessness of the video in question, the video itself doesn't do anything. It won't maintain attention, it won't benefit her movement, it doesn't effectively make a pathos based argument. That video will not "pull at the heartstrings" and likely took her no more than ten minutes to make.
Her complete laziness is fucking shocking.
"I have a vagina" girl, what? This is what people talk about when they point out "[cis] women wouldn't make a topic like this". Bro, this isn't going to challenge anyone's "problematic ideologies". You are only ever going to have two arguments to your opps. Intersex conditions (still remaining uneducated and without advocacy for those who experience it) and just the definition of vagina.
You will not convince anyone because you're incapable of making a point. This is literally just a shock value background.
Adora ALSO pointed out both in her own discord and her live that she wants to focus on her own experiences. Which isn't going to benefit the groups she continues to leave behind or expressly harms herself.
On a side note, the met gala being compared to the Capitol in hunger games is SO APT, and i don't think adora realizes she not only lives in the Capitol, she's Caesar Flickerman.
2024.05.13 11:45 Lrutus si(jung) is the current fi here + quotes that prove it.
First of all, I find it curious that many descriptions of fi today only sound like si(jung) to me. Either way, read carefully and draw your own conclusions.
Quotes taken from the description of -si- in psychological types
2-"Normally the object is not consciously devalued in the least, but its stimulus is removed from it and immediately replaced by a subjective reaction no longer related to the reality of the object. This naturally has the same effect as devaluation."
3-"Actually he lives in a mythological world, where men, animals,locomotives, houses, rivers, and mountains appear either as benevolent deities or as malevolent demons. That they appear thus to him never enters his head, though that is just the effect they have on his judgments and actions.He judges and acts as though he had such powers to deal with; but this begins to strike him only when he discovers that his sensations are totally different from reality."
4-"What is meant by this finds its best illustration in the reproduction of objects in art. When, for instance, several painters undertake to paint one and the same landscape, with a sincere attempt to reproduce it faithfully, each painting will none the less differ from the rest, not merely by virtue of a more or less developed ability, but chiefly because of a different vision; there will even appear in some of the paintings a decided psychic variation, both in general mood and in treatment of colour and form. Such qualities betray a more or less influential co-operation of the subjective factor."
5-The character of significance and meaning clings to subjective perception. It says more than the mere image of the object, though naturally only to him for whom the [p. 500] subjective factor has some meaning.
6-Introverted sensation conveys an image whose effect is not so much to reproduce the object as to throw over it a wrapping whose lustre is derived from age-old subjective experience and the still unborn future event.
submitted by Lrutus to mbti [link] [comments]
Quotes taken from the description of -si- in psychological types
1-"the introverted type is guided by the intensity of the subjective sensation excited by the objective stimulus."<>>>>>><>>>>>>>>>>>>><>>>>>>>>>>>>><>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2-"Normally the object is not consciously devalued in the least, but its stimulus is removed from it and immediately replaced by a subjective reaction no longer related to the reality of the object. This naturally has the same effect as devaluation."
3-"Actually he lives in a mythological world, where men, animals,locomotives, houses, rivers, and mountains appear either as benevolent deities or as malevolent demons. That they appear thus to him never enters his head, though that is just the effect they have on his judgments and actions.He judges and acts as though he had such powers to deal with; but this begins to strike him only when he discovers that his sensations are totally different from reality."
4-"What is meant by this finds its best illustration in the reproduction of objects in art. When, for instance, several painters undertake to paint one and the same landscape, with a sincere attempt to reproduce it faithfully, each painting will none the less differ from the rest, not merely by virtue of a more or less developed ability, but chiefly because of a different vision; there will even appear in some of the paintings a decided psychic variation, both in general mood and in treatment of colour and form. Such qualities betray a more or less influential co-operation of the subjective factor."
5-The character of significance and meaning clings to subjective perception. It says more than the mere image of the object, though naturally only to him for whom the [p. 500] subjective factor has some meaning.
6-Introverted sensation conveys an image whose effect is not so much to reproduce the object as to throw over it a wrapping whose lustre is derived from age-old subjective experience and the still unborn future event.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>><<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
2024.05.13 00:48 After-Assumption-150 Trying something new
Network can be connected to make them blue vs red when pinged. Started a new game in very hard and I am not touching access points until I get the laptop from the mission where they're talking about connecting devices on a network. Then I'll be hacking everything. I haven't touched a single access point yet.
It looks like betraying song bird is the play here as you can get to any other area on her path but you need to side with Reed to get to Cynosure.
I'm going a 20 int build and likely maxing cool as well.
I'm also planning on making sure I have Kerry romanced as that ending with male V doesn't seem well explored.
I don't think we've solved the main mystery. I think they have put in some red herrings. Why? Because after all the puzzles to get the monster truck, it still says 0 Hidden Messsages. There's something else.
Night city looks like a circuit board from above. I think we need to connect all the networks and open the Blackwall.
Connected networks turn blue. People on the net are blue. Blackwall is red like unconnected networks. There's something to this.
This will be the toughest run I've done. It will take a ton of time. But until 0 hidden messsages is figured out, I know there's more to this.
They said it's about 'outsmarting the devs'. That means they have hidden levels that trigger only on specific things. If you have the door opening mod and you force doors some open to nowhere where later on there is stuff. I also noticed that there are no tarot graffiti before we get shot by Dex.
Before Dex we are IN night city for real for sure. What if the answer can only be figured out before The Heist? WARGAMES quote used in the game is about sometimes the answer is Not to Play.
There are other ways to get the monster truck. The QR code suggests this was the end and to go have fun. I think there's something else to that page. I'm going to look into the code for it later. The whole mystery is about not taking things at face value. Yet we keep taking these false endings as the actual ending even though we keep finding out there's more and some things weren't solved yet. Like where the numbers for the servers come from in game outside of the top scores.
We don't know what the world tree symbol means or Misty's sign means yet. It's time we stop assuming we knew anything. Putting the heist off and solving the mystery! Racing to the egg!
submitted by After-Assumption-150 to FF06B5 [link] [comments]
It looks like betraying song bird is the play here as you can get to any other area on her path but you need to side with Reed to get to Cynosure.
I'm going a 20 int build and likely maxing cool as well.
I'm also planning on making sure I have Kerry romanced as that ending with male V doesn't seem well explored.
I don't think we've solved the main mystery. I think they have put in some red herrings. Why? Because after all the puzzles to get the monster truck, it still says 0 Hidden Messsages. There's something else.
Night city looks like a circuit board from above. I think we need to connect all the networks and open the Blackwall.
Connected networks turn blue. People on the net are blue. Blackwall is red like unconnected networks. There's something to this.
This will be the toughest run I've done. It will take a ton of time. But until 0 hidden messsages is figured out, I know there's more to this.
They said it's about 'outsmarting the devs'. That means they have hidden levels that trigger only on specific things. If you have the door opening mod and you force doors some open to nowhere where later on there is stuff. I also noticed that there are no tarot graffiti before we get shot by Dex.
Before Dex we are IN night city for real for sure. What if the answer can only be figured out before The Heist? WARGAMES quote used in the game is about sometimes the answer is Not to Play.
There are other ways to get the monster truck. The QR code suggests this was the end and to go have fun. I think there's something else to that page. I'm going to look into the code for it later. The whole mystery is about not taking things at face value. Yet we keep taking these false endings as the actual ending even though we keep finding out there's more and some things weren't solved yet. Like where the numbers for the servers come from in game outside of the top scores.
We don't know what the world tree symbol means or Misty's sign means yet. It's time we stop assuming we knew anything. Putting the heist off and solving the mystery! Racing to the egg!
2024.05.12 21:03 boringhistoryfan OOP delivers donated clothing to displaced fire victims. Woman demands coat OOP is wearing instead, then claims OOP threw donated clothing in ditch.
This was originally posted by midesaka little over a year ago. I noticed since then that there was an update that never got included in the original post. Only found it myself today scrolling back. Figured people today would enjoy it. I also need to credit Direct-Caterpillar77 for linking it in the megathread which is how I stumbled upon this.
OOP is OBlondeOne. I am not OOP. Reminder do not message or contact them, or comment in the linked posts below.
I've taken the text from the Original BORU. The new update is after 🔴🔴🔴
trigger warnings: verbal abuse, gaslighting, drug use
Original BORU
OOP delivers donated clothing to displaced fire victims. Woman demands coat OOP is wearing instead, then claims OOP threw donated clothing in ditch.
I am NOT OP. Original post by in on Sunday, February 26, 2023, with updates as comments on original post through Saturday, March 4, 2023.
Some people... - Sunday, February 26, 2023
[NOTE: I have added a couple of clarifying words in brackets to reduce quoting.]
I'm part of a local donation group, so every now and then, I get asked to help with clothes donations. Someone passes away or downsizes, and I will help wash, fold, sort, and deliver the clothes to various free stores. Sometimes, if we are notified of someone in the community in need, we will deliver essentials like winter or kids clothing to their house. We're just a group within the community -there is no religious, political or ulterior motive. We just spread extra through the community as needed as discreetly as possible to help out. This particular situation just hurts my head, and I'm still trying to figure out how it escalated the way it did.
So a few days ago there was a fire in our community which left 3 families displaced. We collected what we could in the sizes they needed, and off we went.
We dont ask for anything in return other than knowing the families are a little better off. We always apologize and explain that while they may not be they styles they're accustomed to ( as donated clothing ) but at least it is clean and warm. If they had specific needs to let a member of the group know and we would do what we can. A lot of our collected items belonged to other families whose children outgrew the items. It's anonymous and it's a way for our more comfortable community members to help out others within the community with this. It's one thing I love about my community - people don't hesitate to help where needed.
I was given an address and head out as usual. Pull in, get the bags and coats to the door and knock.
After that... I'm not sure what to think. It started off as it usually does. There was a mother and 3 children, so I explain that there are 3 bags of clothing in the sizes submitted, and a box of age appropriate toys just like with the other families.
I thought I heard wrong when she said she preferred my coat and just said what?
She called me rude and told me again,' This stuff is OK, but I want the coat you're wearing '.
When I told her, "No, I'm sorry, but I just bought this coat she got angry and accused me of picking through donation bags for "the good stuff."
I've never run into this issue before. None of the group members are well off. In fact, that's why we do what we do. Because life is hard here and we believe in sharing what we have as a community. We collect good quality items from those with extra and distribute it freely to those that need it or have specific needs. Sometimes we all take items from our own closets if they're needed more elsewhere. Last year we raised funds to help purchase a wheelchair accessible vehicle for a family. The year before it was a young family whose matriarch was diagnosed with terminal cancer. This years cause is to build 4 'tiny homes' for the homeless in our community to use as needed. Our goal is to provide stability so they can successfully reintegrate during and after addiction rehabilitation. We all do what we can to try to help, basically. It's a hard world to feel alone in.
Now, my coat is expensive ( $250 ) but I've also saved gift cards for 2 years and anxiously watched for post-season sales before finally taking the plunge and got it for 75% off. Maybe I messed up by wearing it on this errand? I don't know. After I said no, this is my coat a second time, she started yelling at me.
I just left the bags on the doorstep and drove away.
Today I wake up to a slew of texts from the group asking me to explain why I refused to give the mother any winter coats, and why I left everything at the end of the driveway... allegedly in a ditch? They aren't questioning. Most are downright accusatory. Some are just borderline mean.
It's the kind of day where I feel like giving up on this making the world a better place thing.
I've been where these families are. And people helped me just like this. I know what it feels like to rely on others... so I do try to be compassionate and understanding without being condescending or pitying. I don't often talk about what I do because nobody needs to know what came from where, or who is getting what. It's just paying it forward. I do this because it's been done for me, and it's the right thing to do. It's that simple.
But after today... I don't even want to reply to anyone. It's not just that woman. It's the texts that are getting kinda nasty at this point. It's these people obviously talking about me behind my back. It's how quick they were to assume I must have done this.
I'm not sure if I want to do this anymore after all this. I've been part of this for 5 years and have never had a complaint before. I feel betrayed by people I thought were my friends. It just all feels gross, dramatic and depressing now, and that's now how this is supposed to feel.
===
I could understand if this was, like, a fancy fur coat or something.
This is literally just a rather plain looking long coat that happens to be super warm.
I don't get it.
It's only been an official group with a board for about 4 months. But we have been doing this for 5 years now as a project of mine and the current board president that gathered consiserable traction and volunteers/funding as time went on.
They so need policies in place. If only to protect the clients that use the service. But as a new board we are all just learning the official ropes and red tape as we go.
The one person I thought I could count on is currently the one insisting this happened as the client describes.
I'm just so confused.
We did need a board in this case as we are partially federally funded- the community pantry is, anyways.
It's a requirement. Unfortunately.
I've had 1 out of 5 [members of the charity group] text asking if I'm ok, and what happened. The rest seem to believe that I did this.
I don't know how to move on from this. Because the truth will come out eventually in a community this small. It always does.
The question now is do I want to be involved with people like this. I don't think I can trust them after this.
===
The longer I wait, the worse it will be. I know that. But I just don't want to deal with this either. Small community. The truth will come out eventually.
But it's now obvious that I can't trust these people. No matter what's said after this, the damage has been done.
Update:
As suggested, I did text them as a group in bullet form stating facts only. ( edit: sorry for formatting. Copied from text ,)
'
As I feel I no longer have a place of trust within our group, I am formally resigning from my roles within the committee, and the (group)
I will, with your blessing, remain on the Helping Tree as a contact'
So far the replies are very interesting. They range from apologetic to accusatory to narcissistic. The most interesting one so far, I think, was not intended for me and insinuated that this was for the best. I can't believe how naive I've been.
There's an emergency meeting being scheduled for next week, as apparently you're not just allowed to resign mid-term from a board like this without a valid reason. Which I think I have.
The benefit of this is my accuser also has to give an official statement in the meeting minutes because ive resigned. Which I'm allowed to attend and comment on. Which adds validity ti my reasons for resigning. Would it be petty if I wore my coat again, or should I choose something older? Genuinely asking. I don't want to make things worse. I just want out to do my own thing.
Rumors are already starting and seem to be in my favor. Small towns are terrific/terrible for that. And I've just been texted asking me to withdraw my resignation ' for fear this may cause an irreparable rift in our charitable group'.
I have 8 months left to my current term as Secretary. A position that requires the trust of the board members to record accurate notes. Which I no longer feel I have. I don't want my character unfairly questioned again after I've worked so damn hard to build it up.
My resignation was intended to prevent drama and divide. It is doing the opposite.
What would you do? I feel like I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't.
Or so I'm being told. This may be a stall tactic. I'm going over the current bylaws and policies but it's small font and a hard read.
I'm surprised/touched by how many clients are defending me, but I think this is what is causing a lot of drama and distrust both within the organization and with those that use it. Which is exactly what I was trying to avoid by quietly resigning.
It just sucks, for lack of a better word. I feel like the religious have it wrong. It's not judge not lest ye be judged. It's just be judged these days.
My dash cam! I'm going to check it.
Thank you! Thank you so much!
No audio. No clear AHA! moment.
But it does show enough.
It shows me pulling in, and that there's nothing on the porch. It shows the car moving slightly as I take the bags out, and it does show a bag being deposited on the porch as well as at least 2 coats/snowsuits.
As I back out you can almost see the whole porch. You do see her outside but the definition isn't good enough to see her face or what she's doing.
I'm also still not sure what proof-if any-has been submitted by my accuser(s).
Who, I'm told, has been dropped from the Helping Tree community pantry registry.
I'm actually starting to get very angry. That woman messed up. But she has 3 kids under her care that deserve to eat and be clothed. This is going way too far.
Update:
Ungrateful client is board presidents former sister in law.
And yes, they're still friendly.
Ah. Small towns... 🤷♀️
I can't wait for next week...
And that's the problem.
I think I'm going to ask for an official board inquest -which is eithin my rights according to our by-laws - before I go. I can't see someone doing this over reputation or clout. I certainly hope not, anyways. But if the inquest finds this was planned ( who tf does this? ) I would have grounds to have the board President removed. It's not pettiness- I don't want to see this done to someone else.
But you're right. Something stinks here and it gets worse by the day. I'm going to look into [comment ends here]
I'm going to submit a statement to the board, with footage from my dash cam that shows at least 1 bag clearly on the porch.
Unfortunately, I forgot to itemize the coat/3 snowsuits & boots dropped off in my group text, so I do have to justify that one somehow.
I also just heard they dropped off another 3 bags to the woman, including winter gear. I think it's an attempt at damage control, but I also think they're moving in the wrong direction, given what I'm hearing from many.
If she tries to sell the excess, like many seem to think she will, this will all come to a head so much faster. Either way, I'm ironically the least invested in this around here at this point.
Small town drama ...
I admit, looking back, it is odd that I was given this client when others were closer. I had thought it may be because of scheduling conflicts but I'm finding that's not the case either
Interestingly, there are rumors going around that this was staged. I'm trying not to pay attention to rumors without proof but I'm starting to wonder....
I hate this with a passion. It all seems so damn stupid.
I'm still so confused. The meeting has been scheduled for Wednesday night ( 2 days time ).
I haven't decided if I'm going yet. I don't want this drama to derail what has been a good thing so far.
I may just submit my statement and resignation and leave it at that. Popular opinion is on my side so why make it worse?
After reading this I started thinking about other groups that this woman may have been a part of at her previous location.
Well. WELL.
I now have 4 witnesses to past behavior willing to come with me Wednesday from 3! groups that have been similarly burned by this woman.
The question is.. do I want to take it that far?
I do- and I don't.
I feel this has taken up far more valuable time, and it's taking away from the original purpose of the group.
I'm also being asked to submit my name for board president by the majority of the board for the upcoming term. So I'm being supported ( now ).
I still don't trust any of them to have my back should anything happen. And if I replace the Pres shit will happen.
I'm being told there are 2 board members who seem to think I'm blowing this out of proportion ( Pres and Treasurer ) and should just take the reprimand ' maturely'.
When ( if ) I go in Wednesday I'm just going to tell then simply that I feel I no longer have the trust required for my appointed position, and am respectfully resigning to prevent further drama.
Pass in my official resignation and walk away.
I've also discovered the emergency meeting is to consider 3 resignations-not just mine.
Those kids don't deserve to be dragged into this, too.
===
This may just be divine intervention in disguise.
Update. The meeting.
My apologies This will be long.
As I parked, there were a couple that stopped to say hi, but the majority of the board did not acknowledge me. My accuser though.. she had a great laugh at my expense, and literally taunted me in front of the others on the way in. 'ooh here for more, are you? Guess you didn't get enough of me yet' and blows me a kiss.
She showed up with the Pres. I feel that's relevant. Especially seeming as she ran home.
The meeting started at 6 pm. I was not allowed to sit at the table until the issue was brought up... I sat, alone, for over 45 minutes. Finally someone peeked outside at 6:53 ( to see if I was still there? ) and called me in.
My accuser wasn't there. I say down and the first thing said to me was ' well. We may have made a mistake' followed by this big flowery apology that stank of bullshit and was gaslit better than a propane stove.
'You know that when a complaint comes in, we have to investigate it'
At that point I just exploded. Like... I didn't even talk to my kids like that when they were babies. It was the kind of tone you have when talking to the very simplest of minds.
I told them there's a massive difference between investigating and outright accusing, and that I didn't appreciate how their ineptitude at leading a board nearly derailed the whole organization and just put a really bad light on what we were doing. She says ' by unanimous decision, we've decided not to accept your resignation. Welcome back'
I've likely been this confused before, but I don't remember when. I was expecting this to be much harder. I had a factual speech ready and everything. Walked in and it was just 'we oopsied, oh well teehee'
'Well that's unfortunate that you refuse to accept it, because it's given and I'm not rescinding it. I'm out. And it seems you all know exactly why. For those who have reached out to me- I'll consider your offer of leading this board, but at this time, I'm not comfortable with the lack of trust and transparency I'm seeing. ' and left.
My phone has been blowing up all night. I meant to update immediately but it just kept ringing and tinging. I don't even know how so many found out ( good old gossip is my guess ) but I had over 30 calls and just as many texts/social media messages.
So. What hspprned while i was waiting outside.
My accuser decided to get on something pre-meeting. Literally acted like a wild animal at one point. I'm told it was so bad that the police and Child Protection Services were called by 4 of 5 ladies present, and when told they were called, my accuser took off running home. That's a whole 'nother story. The kids are now safe, I'm told. There's that.
The versions I'm hearing are surprisingly similar, for once. So I'm going to tell you the events as I was told.
Pres' husband is apparently an addict. Who gets his stash from the sis in law/accuser. I'm not clear on the details but I'm told blackmail was involved. Common word says she threatened to spill the beans on hubby. You know how it goes. Get hurt, get prescription, get hooked, get cheaper street drugs because they're cheaper and no doctor regulates them/questions your dose. There's a rumor he is also sleeping with sustained in law but this is not confirmed... but has been going around for the better part of a year now. Maybe I should start listening to more rumors because I had no idea.
Accuser started off normal, if ' twitchy'. She went to the washroom and shit allegedly went sideways not long after she came out. At one point she was laying on the floor, ' slithering and grunting' like an animal'. I wish I could have seen it, but kinda glad I didn't.
When Accuser left, it swayed the remaining 2 votes my way. There was a discussion on how to ' handle' me where the Pres just said she'll follow the board on the vote after they shot down her suggestion that the complaint still be addressed. The way she glared at me when I came in ( yes, wearing my coat! ) tells me she was not happy about it either.
The vote was unanimous to keep me. I did not wish to stay after all that.
Tomorrow they have an open board meeting to tell people what happened, as transparency is ironically a promise we made to the community so they know exactly who and what they're supporting. I won't be there. But a lot of angry and confused people will be. I'm glad I'll be missing it, but I have a feeling I'll hear all about it. I'm told there will be some calling for Pres' resignation. We shall see, I guess.
I started this feeling lower than low. Tonight I'm surrounded by positivity and I feel GOOD about this decision. Is this Karma? It feels like Karma.
Steps are already being taken to form what we will call The Fringe Farm. We will collect fresh farm goods donated by local farmers and deliver to homes that need a little extra, focusing on those that live between communities and people new to rural life. Eventually I hope to offer clothing and household goods, but I need to find a source outside the community so I'm not taking from the original group.
I also have a preliminary board. Comprised of 3 of 5 members of the original board haha
I've told then they have to finish their term at the group (because they do damn good work, and it's not fair to those that need them to just walk away-hypocritical? Msybe. But i refuse to torpedo the group ). 2 still submitted resignations because they're just floored by that last meeting. Theirs was depending upon mine, so their exit meetings are being scheduled for next week. Because they no longer have a secretary to record minutes I'm being asked to. I'm also being asked to submit my name for Pres should the current one agree to resign.
I haven't decided if I will. I feel that will come across as petty, and tbh it's no longer my business.
Thank you for the encouragement. I'm not sure if I would have had the courage to attend if not for the overwhelming kindness and support shown here. By strangers. * shakes head*. You have no idea how much this meant to me when I needed it.
Thank you.
Update #2.
The open meeting was a shitshow, I'm told.
Pres was called to resign. Refused.
So the board resigned. The group is now being led by the Pres and that's it. So it's essentially dead. You need minimum 3 board members to continue as a registered charity/nonprofit. Nobody ( out of approx 50 ppl ) raised a hand when asked if they wanted to join.
The Fringe Farm, by comparison, has more volunteers than we can organize. This is the group started after you lovely folks helped me decide staying wasn't worth the trouble.
I have mixed feelings over this. One.. it's nice to feel validated. The other... I really don't like how this went down for too many reasons to count.
Our first task as a new org?
Writing an iron clad policy everyone agrees with. Including specific steps to collect, file and address complaints or concerns.
Reminder - I am not the original poster.
🔴🔴🔴
Some People... ( update 2 ) Posted March 28th 2023
Update #2
The Aftermath
It's been... interesting.
The old group has dissolved. Nobody wanted to work with the pres anymore after all that. They held an emergency meeting to try to figure out why most of the board submitted their resignations and it was a shitshow of Pres accusing the remaining board members of conspiring against her, which caused the last remaining board members to also resign over time.
My new board ( Fringe Farm ) is thriving. We've taken over collection and distribution in our area and 2 others as we've merged with 2 other small groups to tap more resources.
Imagine my shock and surprise when the original offender called my Treasurer and asked to be put on the list... of course we did help her but we took the Secretary's minivan and all 7 of us went as a group. When we got there it was the former Pres husband that answered the door.
Our first task was to have an ironclad board policy that states anyone accused of wrongdoing will be spoken to privately by the pres and vice pres ( neither are me-i prefer to work behind the scenes ) prior to anything else.
I'm hearing rumors that the former board pres (P) isn't doing well. When the shit hit the fan her husband left her for sis in law and they've been ' methed up ' ever since.
I honestly feel bad for her. They have no kids and now it's just her... we are having a meeting next week and I believe we are going to invite P onto our board in a non-authority role. After hearing everything that went down afterwards... she's had to get a job and they're currently trying to sell their house amid divorce proceedings so I guess the rumor he was getting a little more than drugs from sis in law was accurate after all. Rumors say P is in massive debt thanks to her husband addiction. I don't think she should have to go through it all alone. I also think her situation was causing her an immense amount of stress and that's why everything happened as it did. She knows she messed up. There's no need to rubbing salt in her wounds.
Reflection:
This has been a very eye opening experience into how our personal lives can seriously affect our moods and actions, I think.
We never really know what someone else is going through, and why they behave the way they do. Part of me wishes I knew so I could have handled it better on my end. Part of me is still raging/hurt at how it all went down.
Hurt people hurt people. It's sad but so very true.
Original post : https://www.reddit.com/EntitledPeople/comments/11cmv5l/some_people/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Update #1 : https://www.reddit.com/EntitledPeople/comments/124id5some_people_updates/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Some additional comments
Sis in law is not being helped by our group, but I did refer her to another that has not had dealings with her yet, and gave them a heads up that this person needs help but is unstable due to 'current life choices'. She had kids who are blameless in all this that don't deserve to be left out, should she get them back.
I think I forgot to mention that she temporarily lost her kids over her animilistic outburst at the meeting? Too many witnesses and too many complaints I guess. And as her and P's husband are blowing through cash like theres no tomorrow on drugs its unlikely to resolve itself anytime soon.
( and yes, its been confirmed that at least 1 of the 3 children are P's husbands, possibly 2 )
As for P... I feel for her. I really do think all of this was a desperate control tactic because she had none in her personal life. I get it.. I think. My life, from the outside, looks perfect. Good kids, great partner, great and satisfying job, decent home & car ... and people ( seem to ) like me.
I don't want her left alone. Depression is a terrible thing, and it makes no sense to help a community while ignoring someone within it that's obviously not ok.
I will definitly proceed with caution in case P has not learned her lesson but leaving her out feels wrong.
We offered one-time temporary help. Our unofficial misdion is 'we don't refuse anyone because we don't know their story'.
I also think many of our volunteers were curious/nosy and that's why we've been able to have such a large group so quickly. Sadly, I'm well aware that some help just for the gossip and we haven't been operational long enough to root those out yet to divert to positions where they can't collect potentially harmful gossip.
The second request she made ( the very next week... making her total 3x requests for clothing & food over 3 weeks just over our 2 groups ) was passed on to another group as nobody wanted to get involved, and I'm not allowed to get involved on my own ( our by-law to prevent drama: 'Once a conflict has been reported the accused is not to have any involvement with the donation or distribution of goods to the accuser.' This also serves to protect our volunteers from frivolous accusations or personal vendettas. )
REMINDER: Do not comment in posts linked here. It is a violation of Rule 7
submitted by boringhistoryfan to BestofRedditorUpdates [link] [comments]
OOP is OBlondeOne. I am not OOP. Reminder do not message or contact them, or comment in the linked posts below.
I've taken the text from the Original BORU. The new update is after 🔴🔴🔴
trigger warnings: verbal abuse, gaslighting, drug use
Original BORU
OOP delivers donated clothing to displaced fire victims. Woman demands coat OOP is wearing instead, then claims OOP threw donated clothing in ditch.
I am NOT OP. Original post by in on Sunday, February 26, 2023, with updates as comments on original post through Saturday, March 4, 2023.
Some people... - Sunday, February 26, 2023
[NOTE: I have added a couple of clarifying words in brackets to reduce quoting.]
I'm part of a local donation group, so every now and then, I get asked to help with clothes donations. Someone passes away or downsizes, and I will help wash, fold, sort, and deliver the clothes to various free stores. Sometimes, if we are notified of someone in the community in need, we will deliver essentials like winter or kids clothing to their house. We're just a group within the community -there is no religious, political or ulterior motive. We just spread extra through the community as needed as discreetly as possible to help out. This particular situation just hurts my head, and I'm still trying to figure out how it escalated the way it did.
So a few days ago there was a fire in our community which left 3 families displaced. We collected what we could in the sizes they needed, and off we went.
We dont ask for anything in return other than knowing the families are a little better off. We always apologize and explain that while they may not be they styles they're accustomed to ( as donated clothing ) but at least it is clean and warm. If they had specific needs to let a member of the group know and we would do what we can. A lot of our collected items belonged to other families whose children outgrew the items. It's anonymous and it's a way for our more comfortable community members to help out others within the community with this. It's one thing I love about my community - people don't hesitate to help where needed.
I was given an address and head out as usual. Pull in, get the bags and coats to the door and knock.
After that... I'm not sure what to think. It started off as it usually does. There was a mother and 3 children, so I explain that there are 3 bags of clothing in the sizes submitted, and a box of age appropriate toys just like with the other families.
I thought I heard wrong when she said she preferred my coat and just said what?
She called me rude and told me again,' This stuff is OK, but I want the coat you're wearing '.
When I told her, "No, I'm sorry, but I just bought this coat she got angry and accused me of picking through donation bags for "the good stuff."
I've never run into this issue before. None of the group members are well off. In fact, that's why we do what we do. Because life is hard here and we believe in sharing what we have as a community. We collect good quality items from those with extra and distribute it freely to those that need it or have specific needs. Sometimes we all take items from our own closets if they're needed more elsewhere. Last year we raised funds to help purchase a wheelchair accessible vehicle for a family. The year before it was a young family whose matriarch was diagnosed with terminal cancer. This years cause is to build 4 'tiny homes' for the homeless in our community to use as needed. Our goal is to provide stability so they can successfully reintegrate during and after addiction rehabilitation. We all do what we can to try to help, basically. It's a hard world to feel alone in.
Now, my coat is expensive ( $250 ) but I've also saved gift cards for 2 years and anxiously watched for post-season sales before finally taking the plunge and got it for 75% off. Maybe I messed up by wearing it on this errand? I don't know. After I said no, this is my coat a second time, she started yelling at me.
I just left the bags on the doorstep and drove away.
Today I wake up to a slew of texts from the group asking me to explain why I refused to give the mother any winter coats, and why I left everything at the end of the driveway... allegedly in a ditch? They aren't questioning. Most are downright accusatory. Some are just borderline mean.
It's the kind of day where I feel like giving up on this making the world a better place thing.
I've been where these families are. And people helped me just like this. I know what it feels like to rely on others... so I do try to be compassionate and understanding without being condescending or pitying. I don't often talk about what I do because nobody needs to know what came from where, or who is getting what. It's just paying it forward. I do this because it's been done for me, and it's the right thing to do. It's that simple.
But after today... I don't even want to reply to anyone. It's not just that woman. It's the texts that are getting kinda nasty at this point. It's these people obviously talking about me behind my back. It's how quick they were to assume I must have done this.
I'm not sure if I want to do this anymore after all this. I've been part of this for 5 years and have never had a complaint before. I feel betrayed by people I thought were my friends. It just all feels gross, dramatic and depressing now, and that's now how this is supposed to feel.
===
I could understand if this was, like, a fancy fur coat or something.
This is literally just a rather plain looking long coat that happens to be super warm.
I don't get it.
It's only been an official group with a board for about 4 months. But we have been doing this for 5 years now as a project of mine and the current board president that gathered consiserable traction and volunteers/funding as time went on.
They so need policies in place. If only to protect the clients that use the service. But as a new board we are all just learning the official ropes and red tape as we go.
The one person I thought I could count on is currently the one insisting this happened as the client describes.
I'm just so confused.
We did need a board in this case as we are partially federally funded- the community pantry is, anyways.
It's a requirement. Unfortunately.
I've had 1 out of 5 [members of the charity group] text asking if I'm ok, and what happened. The rest seem to believe that I did this.
I don't know how to move on from this. Because the truth will come out eventually in a community this small. It always does.
The question now is do I want to be involved with people like this. I don't think I can trust them after this.
===
Maybe take a breather from the group. The way they treated you is horrible.The issue is I can't avoid them either. I'm going to have to answer eventually, either via text or in person.
The longer I wait, the worse it will be. I know that. But I just don't want to deal with this either. Small community. The truth will come out eventually.
But it's now obvious that I can't trust these people. No matter what's said after this, the damage has been done.
Update:
As suggested, I did text them as a group in bullet form stating facts only. ( edit: sorry for formatting. Copied from text ,)
'
- Items were carried to front door as per usual
- Client requested my personal attire
- Client accused me of theft from donation bags
- Client verbally abused me
- I left the following on Client's doorstep : ½ bag of women's clothing sizes m-l : 1+½ bag children's clothing sizes 3-8 : 1x bag of assorted linens & towels : 1x box of assorted children's toys and books
As I feel I no longer have a place of trust within our group, I am formally resigning from my roles within the committee, and the (group)
I will, with your blessing, remain on the Helping Tree as a contact'
So far the replies are very interesting. They range from apologetic to accusatory to narcissistic. The most interesting one so far, I think, was not intended for me and insinuated that this was for the best. I can't believe how naive I've been.
There's an emergency meeting being scheduled for next week, as apparently you're not just allowed to resign mid-term from a board like this without a valid reason. Which I think I have.
The benefit of this is my accuser also has to give an official statement in the meeting minutes because ive resigned. Which I'm allowed to attend and comment on. Which adds validity ti my reasons for resigning. Would it be petty if I wore my coat again, or should I choose something older? Genuinely asking. I don't want to make things worse. I just want out to do my own thing.
Rumors are already starting and seem to be in my favor. Small towns are terrific/terrible for that. And I've just been texted asking me to withdraw my resignation ' for fear this may cause an irreparable rift in our charitable group'.
I have 8 months left to my current term as Secretary. A position that requires the trust of the board members to record accurate notes. Which I no longer feel I have. I don't want my character unfairly questioned again after I've worked so damn hard to build it up.
My resignation was intended to prevent drama and divide. It is doing the opposite.
What would you do? I feel like I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't.
Not allowed to resign? What are they going to do, ground you?With a formal board, there are steps to take to remove a member of the core board ( pres, vice president, secretary, treasurer, committee heads).
Or so I'm being told. This may be a stall tactic. I'm going over the current bylaws and policies but it's small font and a hard read.
I'm surprised/touched by how many clients are defending me, but I think this is what is causing a lot of drama and distrust both within the organization and with those that use it. Which is exactly what I was trying to avoid by quietly resigning.
It just sucks, for lack of a better word. I feel like the religious have it wrong. It's not judge not lest ye be judged. It's just be judged these days.
Going forward, it needs to be mandatory that there be two delivery people on every delivery. No excuses. There will be people in the future that are in dire need of your group's services. Please do not let that woman's behavior stop you from helping those who appreciate your work. And bonus if the other helper has a phone's camera on . You have documentation, and they grow manners if they didn't already have them. Has anyone gone by the house again to see if there was really a ditch??Oh my...
My dash cam! I'm going to check it.
Thank you! Thank you so much!
No audio. No clear AHA! moment.
But it does show enough.
It shows me pulling in, and that there's nothing on the porch. It shows the car moving slightly as I take the bags out, and it does show a bag being deposited on the porch as well as at least 2 coats/snowsuits.
As I back out you can almost see the whole porch. You do see her outside but the definition isn't good enough to see her face or what she's doing.
I'm also still not sure what proof-if any-has been submitted by my accuser(s).
Who, I'm told, has been dropped from the Helping Tree community pantry registry.
I'm actually starting to get very angry. That woman messed up. But she has 3 kids under her care that deserve to eat and be clothed. This is going way too far.
Update:
Ungrateful client is board presidents former sister in law.
And yes, they're still friendly.
Ah. Small towns... 🤷♀️
I can't wait for next week...
I KNEW IT! This whole fiasco smelled strongly of being COMPLETELY orchestrated! Typical small town intrigue and power struggle when there's only ONE that's struggling for the power! President wants you kicked out because you're a CO-FOUNDER and SHE wants to take ALL the accolades and applause from the community! Go get your reputation back, sweet Lady! You ARE needed and necessary to the community, if you weren't, you wouldn't have been doing this charitable work for FIVE years! FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!!!I'm trying to figure out how to walk away, but still acknowledge what's going on without hurting the board-they do good work that's needed. I can't torpedo that no matter how I feel.
And that's the problem.
I think I'm going to ask for an official board inquest -which is eithin my rights according to our by-laws - before I go. I can't see someone doing this over reputation or clout. I certainly hope not, anyways. But if the inquest finds this was planned ( who tf does this? ) I would have grounds to have the board President removed. It's not pettiness- I don't want to see this done to someone else.
But you're right. Something stinks here and it gets worse by the day. I'm going to look into [comment ends here]
I'm going to submit a statement to the board, with footage from my dash cam that shows at least 1 bag clearly on the porch.
Unfortunately, I forgot to itemize the coat/3 snowsuits & boots dropped off in my group text, so I do have to justify that one somehow.
I also just heard they dropped off another 3 bags to the woman, including winter gear. I think it's an attempt at damage control, but I also think they're moving in the wrong direction, given what I'm hearing from many.
If she tries to sell the excess, like many seem to think she will, this will all come to a head so much faster. Either way, I'm ironically the least invested in this around here at this point.
Small town drama ...
I admit, looking back, it is odd that I was given this client when others were closer. I had thought it may be because of scheduling conflicts but I'm finding that's not the case either
Interestingly, there are rumors going around that this was staged. I'm trying not to pay attention to rumors without proof but I'm starting to wonder....
I hate this with a passion. It all seems so damn stupid.
I'm still so confused. The meeting has been scheduled for Wednesday night ( 2 days time ).
I haven't decided if I'm going yet. I don't want this drama to derail what has been a good thing so far.
I may just submit my statement and resignation and leave it at that. Popular opinion is on my side so why make it worse?
I agree with this so much!! People have had to do that here in my town too. We have small groups that helps out the community that aren't in any organization or charitable groups, just themselves giving back. We had specific residents in town that were running their mouth and taking "donations" and selling them for money. Eventually these residents were burning through different community groups and established organizations and they would complain about each one saying they weren't helping and deliberately causing trouble. These groups did post on Facebook telling their sides of the situation, just like you suggested. Well those residents kept doing this and blaming people for not helping, blah blah blah. It didn't take long for the rest of the town to realize that these specific residents were pulling these scams and they were booted out of all the community groups in town. Sometimes you do have to stand up and tell your side to the community. Eventually the truth will come out.You are brilliant!
After reading this I started thinking about other groups that this woman may have been a part of at her previous location.
Well. WELL.
I now have 4 witnesses to past behavior willing to come with me Wednesday from 3! groups that have been similarly burned by this woman.
The question is.. do I want to take it that far?
I do- and I don't.
I feel this has taken up far more valuable time, and it's taking away from the original purpose of the group.
I'm also being asked to submit my name for board president by the majority of the board for the upcoming term. So I'm being supported ( now ).
I still don't trust any of them to have my back should anything happen. And if I replace the Pres shit will happen.
[Comment was deleted, but basically said, "Wear your coat to the meeting, and bring the receipt for it!"]I don't think I need to bring the receipt. They are all aware of when I got my coat, and what I paid for it.
I'm being told there are 2 board members who seem to think I'm blowing this out of proportion ( Pres and Treasurer ) and should just take the reprimand ' maturely'.
When ( if ) I go in Wednesday I'm just going to tell then simply that I feel I no longer have the trust required for my appointed position, and am respectfully resigning to prevent further drama.
Pass in my official resignation and walk away.
I've also discovered the emergency meeting is to consider 3 resignations-not just mine.
OP, defend yourself!!! There’s something fishy about this. Also, call CPS (anonymously?) and report her for being unstable.No. I won't be petty and call CPS
Those kids don't deserve to be dragged into this, too.
===
Maybe you should start your own group with people you can trust?I've actually been thinking of a fringe group for more rural locations that don't fall.within community boundaries.
This may just be divine intervention in disguise.
Update. The meeting.
My apologies This will be long.
As I parked, there were a couple that stopped to say hi, but the majority of the board did not acknowledge me. My accuser though.. she had a great laugh at my expense, and literally taunted me in front of the others on the way in. 'ooh here for more, are you? Guess you didn't get enough of me yet' and blows me a kiss.
She showed up with the Pres. I feel that's relevant. Especially seeming as she ran home.
The meeting started at 6 pm. I was not allowed to sit at the table until the issue was brought up... I sat, alone, for over 45 minutes. Finally someone peeked outside at 6:53 ( to see if I was still there? ) and called me in.
My accuser wasn't there. I say down and the first thing said to me was ' well. We may have made a mistake' followed by this big flowery apology that stank of bullshit and was gaslit better than a propane stove.
'You know that when a complaint comes in, we have to investigate it'
At that point I just exploded. Like... I didn't even talk to my kids like that when they were babies. It was the kind of tone you have when talking to the very simplest of minds.
I told them there's a massive difference between investigating and outright accusing, and that I didn't appreciate how their ineptitude at leading a board nearly derailed the whole organization and just put a really bad light on what we were doing. She says ' by unanimous decision, we've decided not to accept your resignation. Welcome back'
I've likely been this confused before, but I don't remember when. I was expecting this to be much harder. I had a factual speech ready and everything. Walked in and it was just 'we oopsied, oh well teehee'
'Well that's unfortunate that you refuse to accept it, because it's given and I'm not rescinding it. I'm out. And it seems you all know exactly why. For those who have reached out to me- I'll consider your offer of leading this board, but at this time, I'm not comfortable with the lack of trust and transparency I'm seeing. ' and left.
My phone has been blowing up all night. I meant to update immediately but it just kept ringing and tinging. I don't even know how so many found out ( good old gossip is my guess ) but I had over 30 calls and just as many texts/social media messages.
So. What hspprned while i was waiting outside.
My accuser decided to get on something pre-meeting. Literally acted like a wild animal at one point. I'm told it was so bad that the police and Child Protection Services were called by 4 of 5 ladies present, and when told they were called, my accuser took off running home. That's a whole 'nother story. The kids are now safe, I'm told. There's that.
The versions I'm hearing are surprisingly similar, for once. So I'm going to tell you the events as I was told.
Pres' husband is apparently an addict. Who gets his stash from the sis in law/accuser. I'm not clear on the details but I'm told blackmail was involved. Common word says she threatened to spill the beans on hubby. You know how it goes. Get hurt, get prescription, get hooked, get cheaper street drugs because they're cheaper and no doctor regulates them/questions your dose. There's a rumor he is also sleeping with sustained in law but this is not confirmed... but has been going around for the better part of a year now. Maybe I should start listening to more rumors because I had no idea.
Accuser started off normal, if ' twitchy'. She went to the washroom and shit allegedly went sideways not long after she came out. At one point she was laying on the floor, ' slithering and grunting' like an animal'. I wish I could have seen it, but kinda glad I didn't.
When Accuser left, it swayed the remaining 2 votes my way. There was a discussion on how to ' handle' me where the Pres just said she'll follow the board on the vote after they shot down her suggestion that the complaint still be addressed. The way she glared at me when I came in ( yes, wearing my coat! ) tells me she was not happy about it either.
The vote was unanimous to keep me. I did not wish to stay after all that.
Tomorrow they have an open board meeting to tell people what happened, as transparency is ironically a promise we made to the community so they know exactly who and what they're supporting. I won't be there. But a lot of angry and confused people will be. I'm glad I'll be missing it, but I have a feeling I'll hear all about it. I'm told there will be some calling for Pres' resignation. We shall see, I guess.
I started this feeling lower than low. Tonight I'm surrounded by positivity and I feel GOOD about this decision. Is this Karma? It feels like Karma.
Steps are already being taken to form what we will call The Fringe Farm. We will collect fresh farm goods donated by local farmers and deliver to homes that need a little extra, focusing on those that live between communities and people new to rural life. Eventually I hope to offer clothing and household goods, but I need to find a source outside the community so I'm not taking from the original group.
I also have a preliminary board. Comprised of 3 of 5 members of the original board haha
I've told then they have to finish their term at the group (because they do damn good work, and it's not fair to those that need them to just walk away-hypocritical? Msybe. But i refuse to torpedo the group ). 2 still submitted resignations because they're just floored by that last meeting. Theirs was depending upon mine, so their exit meetings are being scheduled for next week. Because they no longer have a secretary to record minutes I'm being asked to. I'm also being asked to submit my name for Pres should the current one agree to resign.
I haven't decided if I will. I feel that will come across as petty, and tbh it's no longer my business.
Thank you for the encouragement. I'm not sure if I would have had the courage to attend if not for the overwhelming kindness and support shown here. By strangers. * shakes head*. You have no idea how much this meant to me when I needed it.
Thank you.
Update #2.
The open meeting was a shitshow, I'm told.
Pres was called to resign. Refused.
So the board resigned. The group is now being led by the Pres and that's it. So it's essentially dead. You need minimum 3 board members to continue as a registered charity/nonprofit. Nobody ( out of approx 50 ppl ) raised a hand when asked if they wanted to join.
The Fringe Farm, by comparison, has more volunteers than we can organize. This is the group started after you lovely folks helped me decide staying wasn't worth the trouble.
I have mixed feelings over this. One.. it's nice to feel validated. The other... I really don't like how this went down for too many reasons to count.
Our first task as a new org?
Writing an iron clad policy everyone agrees with. Including specific steps to collect, file and address complaints or concerns.
Reminder - I am not the original poster.
🔴🔴🔴
Some People... ( update 2 ) Posted March 28th 2023
Update #2
The Aftermath
It's been... interesting.
The old group has dissolved. Nobody wanted to work with the pres anymore after all that. They held an emergency meeting to try to figure out why most of the board submitted their resignations and it was a shitshow of Pres accusing the remaining board members of conspiring against her, which caused the last remaining board members to also resign over time.
My new board ( Fringe Farm ) is thriving. We've taken over collection and distribution in our area and 2 others as we've merged with 2 other small groups to tap more resources.
Imagine my shock and surprise when the original offender called my Treasurer and asked to be put on the list... of course we did help her but we took the Secretary's minivan and all 7 of us went as a group. When we got there it was the former Pres husband that answered the door.
Our first task was to have an ironclad board policy that states anyone accused of wrongdoing will be spoken to privately by the pres and vice pres ( neither are me-i prefer to work behind the scenes ) prior to anything else.
I'm hearing rumors that the former board pres (P) isn't doing well. When the shit hit the fan her husband left her for sis in law and they've been ' methed up ' ever since.
I honestly feel bad for her. They have no kids and now it's just her... we are having a meeting next week and I believe we are going to invite P onto our board in a non-authority role. After hearing everything that went down afterwards... she's had to get a job and they're currently trying to sell their house amid divorce proceedings so I guess the rumor he was getting a little more than drugs from sis in law was accurate after all. Rumors say P is in massive debt thanks to her husband addiction. I don't think she should have to go through it all alone. I also think her situation was causing her an immense amount of stress and that's why everything happened as it did. She knows she messed up. There's no need to rubbing salt in her wounds.
Reflection:
This has been a very eye opening experience into how our personal lives can seriously affect our moods and actions, I think.
We never really know what someone else is going through, and why they behave the way they do. Part of me wishes I knew so I could have handled it better on my end. Part of me is still raging/hurt at how it all went down.
Hurt people hurt people. It's sad but so very true.
Original post : https://www.reddit.com/EntitledPeople/comments/11cmv5l/some_people/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Update #1 : https://www.reddit.com/EntitledPeople/comments/124id5some_people_updates/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Some additional comments
You are very kind to want to help someone who tried to ruin your reputation. If you ask her to join your new organization, this should be contingent on a very serious conversation about a lot of subjects. Her husband left her for a family member and drugs, and that's pretty fucked up and awful. However, that doesn't give her an excuse to take it out on someone who wasn't even remotely involved. If this kind of behavior is out of character for her, then sure, have the discussion. If this is how she always is, save yourself a major headache and just let her go. As for the SIL, she should be put on some kind of a list. Stop helping her.OOP:
Sis in law is not being helped by our group, but I did refer her to another that has not had dealings with her yet, and gave them a heads up that this person needs help but is unstable due to 'current life choices'. She had kids who are blameless in all this that don't deserve to be left out, should she get them back.
I think I forgot to mention that she temporarily lost her kids over her animilistic outburst at the meeting? Too many witnesses and too many complaints I guess. And as her and P's husband are blowing through cash like theres no tomorrow on drugs its unlikely to resolve itself anytime soon.
( and yes, its been confirmed that at least 1 of the 3 children are P's husbands, possibly 2 )
As for P... I feel for her. I really do think all of this was a desperate control tactic because she had none in her personal life. I get it.. I think. My life, from the outside, looks perfect. Good kids, great partner, great and satisfying job, decent home & car ... and people ( seem to ) like me.
I don't want her left alone. Depression is a terrible thing, and it makes no sense to help a community while ignoring someone within it that's obviously not ok.
I will definitly proceed with caution in case P has not learned her lesson but leaving her out feels wrong.
Please forgive me for being incredibly late to these posts - I’ve just read the whole saga through (twice!) as it takes me back to a former life where my role included managing volunteers and ah, the memories this brings back! These kind of voluntary groups do amazing work (and you sound like a truly fantastic individual, OP) but it can get so messy and so cliquey and people can become very protective of their little fiefdoms. These groups are fantastic when all is going well, but once things start going wrong it can all fall apart incredibly quickly. The only way round it (as you’re doing) is to have robust and even-handed policies in place and stick to them. I know you’re not doing this for praise or thanks, but I do think you should recognise your own value and allow yourself at the very least a tiny pat on the back, not because of this situation per se, but because the speed with which you’ve established your new group and how quickly your old group fell apart without you indicates what an effective and impactful leader you are. Even if you don’t see yourself that way, it’s clearly how your community does.OOP:
We offered one-time temporary help. Our unofficial misdion is 'we don't refuse anyone because we don't know their story'.
I also think many of our volunteers were curious/nosy and that's why we've been able to have such a large group so quickly. Sadly, I'm well aware that some help just for the gossip and we haven't been operational long enough to root those out yet to divert to positions where they can't collect potentially harmful gossip.
The second request she made ( the very next week... making her total 3x requests for clothing & food over 3 weeks just over our 2 groups ) was passed on to another group as nobody wanted to get involved, and I'm not allowed to get involved on my own ( our by-law to prevent drama: 'Once a conflict has been reported the accused is not to have any involvement with the donation or distribution of goods to the accuser.' This also serves to protect our volunteers from frivolous accusations or personal vendettas. )
REMINDER: Do not comment in posts linked here. It is a violation of Rule 7
2024.05.12 15:00 av-law Brigham Young and John D. Lee, The Executor of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Were Joined At the Hip: They Were "Birds of a Feather" - Part IIIA
BRIGHAM YOUNG AND JOHN D. LEE, THE EXECUTOR OF THE MOUNTAIN MEADOWS MASSACRE, WERE JOINED AT THE HIP
THEY WERE “BIRDS OF A FEATHER”
Part III - A
Brigham Young’s Knowledge:
Mormon men, “chiefly” white Mormon men (some painted as Indians) – directed by John D. Lee, assisted by Indians directed by John D. Lee – orchestrated the killings of the Arkansas emigrants at Mountain Meadows on September 6-11, 1857. A September surprise: Early Monday morning on September 6, 1857, “a deadly burst of gunfire killed or wounded as many as ten men silhouetted by the campfire in the predawn darkness. Since the Southern Paiutes had few firearms and little skill in using them, the first volley’s destructive power revealed the involvement of a large force of white marksmen and whatever Indian ‘freebooters’ they could enlist. The emigrants chained their wagons together, dug rifle pits and fought back, killing several Indians who Lee had persuaded to lead the attack. Faced with resolute men with Kentucky rifles, ‘the Indians could not do the work,’ Lee realized, and ‘we were in a sad fix.’” (Bigler and Bagley, Mormon Rebellion, 172).
Brigham Young could not but have known that white men spared seventeen children of tender age at Mountain Meadows on September 11, 1857. Not a single parent survived. Mormon militiamen saved children for reasons perfectly obvious to temple-observant Latter-day Saints, like Brigham Young, George Albert Smith, Daniel H. Wells and John D. Lee.
Some of the orphaned children retained “a very vivid impression of much connected with the massacre.” Becky Dunlap “saw David Tullis murder her father and reported that [Jacob] Hamblin’s Indian son, Albert, killed her two sisters.” She and Milum Tackitt “recognized dresses and a part of the jewelry belonging to their mothers, worn by the wives of John D. Lee”; Tackitt also identified his father’s oxen, which were in Lee’s possession. (Bagley, Blood of the Prophets, 239). Other children “frequently pointed out carriages and stock that belonged to the train, stating to whom it belonged.” (Ibid., 239-40). John Calvin Miller “picked arrows from his mother’s body.” He had seen “his grandfather, grandmother, father and mother murdered.” The rescued children told their rescuers that white men assisted in the massacre. They described the white man who came to the corral and got the emigrants “to give up their guns.” White men drove the wagons in which they rode, and “shot the wounded men who had been placed in one of the wagons.” (Ibid., 239-41).
The ties between John D. Lee and Brigham Young survived the massacre. Young visited southern Utah in May 1861. A “key purpose” of that “excursion” was “to ensure that southern Utahns understood the need for silence on the subject of Mountain Meadows.” Lee met Young “near his mansion in Washington County. Brigham Young greeted him with a hearty welcome and took him into his buggy. The entourage of twenty-three carriages followed them to Lee’s mansion house where the ‘whole company seemed to Enjoy themselves well.’” (Bagley, Blood of the Prophets, 246). “While Young’s party visited Toquerville, Lee butchered a steer and two sheep and proposed a second feast at Harmony, this time for some 125 people. Lee had never seen Brigham Young feel better. The prophet spoke for two hours in Lee’s Family Hall. He praised Harmony as ‘the best Fort that had ever been built in this Territory.’” (Ibid., 246).
“30 May [1861], Brigham Young preaches to [a] southern Utah congregation filled with participants in [the] Mountain Meadows Massacre: ‘Pres. Young said that the company that was used up at the Mountain Meadows were the Fathers, Mothers, Bros., Sisters & connections of those that Murdered the Prophets; they Merit[ed] their fate, & the only thing that ever troubled him was the lives of the Women & children [about two-thirds of about one hundred and twenty victims], but that under the circumstances [that] could not be avoided. Although there had been [some] that want[ed] to betray the Brethren into the hands of their Enemies, for that thing [such] will be Damned & go down to Hell. I would be Glad to see one of those traitors.” (Quinn, Extensions of Power, 760, emphasis added). Lee’s Diary: “I would be Glad to see one of those traitors, though I [don’t] Suppose that there is any here now.” Lee then further added this: “They have ran away, & when he [“Pres. Young”] came to the Monument that contained their bones, he made this remark, Vengeance is Mine Saith the Lord, & I have taken a little of it.” (Cleland and Brooks, Diaries of John D. Lee, vol. 1, 314). These indictments of innocent emigrants (exposed as lies in the most recent apologetic, Vengeance Is Mine) were spoken when Brigham Young visited Harmony in 1861, addressed Mountain Meadows Saints in John D. Lee’s “Family Hall,” and also spoke to John D. Lee, “who recorded the church president’s statements on the massacre.” (Cleland and Brooks, Diaries: John D. Lee, Vol. 1, 314, quoted in Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 310). Did this shortly after-the-massacre account sound like Brigham believed for more than a decade that the Indians ambushed the emigrants and Mormons weren’t involved?
In that same year (1861), Young, in company with others, traveled to Mountain Meadows. There he saw the inscription on a makeshift monument that Major James Carleton and members of the United States Army had erected “in memory of the massacre victims. On top of a twelve-foot mound of rocks, a wooden cross bore an inscription from the New Testament epistle to the Romans: ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.’” A witness to Young’s reaction, “fellow traveler Wilford Woodruff,” said that, “Young suggested that it should read, ‘Vengence is mine and I have taken a little.’” “God had punished the emigrants, either for their misdeeds or for the misdeeds of other Gentiles. Several sources assert that members of Young’s party destroyed the monument.” (Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 309).
Young’s brilliant biographer, John G. Turner, concluded as follows: “Even if he did not order the monument’s destruction, Young’s words on his 1861 trip south denigrated the massacre’s victims and defended the Mormon murderers.” (Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 310). Turner called Young’s words in Lee’s Family Hall “callous justification of the deaths of unarmed men, women and children . . . .” John D. Lee’s iteration in his contemporaneous journal “represents an expansion of the sentiment Young had expressed at the monument itself. By 1861, Young knew that Mormons bore responsibility for the crime and wanted to make sure that their fellow church members shielded them from prosecution.” (Ibid., 310). There is ample additional evidence that he knew who did these deeds in 1857. Why else would he destroy Isaac Haight’s September 7, 1857, Letter to him, a smoking gun? He knew what happened there, and who to blame, before he spoke to the New Harmony crowd and John D. Lee, and much earlier to Phillip Klingensmith, Charles Hopkins, George Albert Smith, Daniel H. Wells, Jacob Hamblin and others, including Indian allies, shortly after the crime occurred. He knew when he received Isaac Haight’s Express, a message to which a more decent man would have provided a more honest response. A man not looking for scapegoats. “For Young, everything else was secondary to the preservation of the church, including the standards of morality the Latter-day Saints usually shared with other mid-nineteenth-century Americans.” (Ibid., 310).
Protecting Lee:
The exodus West featured Brigham Young, under a January 1846 Indictment for Counterfeiting, leaving Nauvoo with John D. Lee in tow, before good weather allowed. When Brigham Young left on the 10th of February 1846 with a small company, and crossed the Mississippi River on the ice into Iowa, John D. Lee crossed two wagons with the first company. (Lee, Confessions, 171). “Brigham did this [braved the weather] in order to elude the officers. He waited there [in Iowa at Sugar Creek] until all who could fit themselves out could join him.” John D. Lee: “I took one of Brigham’s wives, Emeline, in one of my wagons, with Louisa, her sister, as far as Florence or Rainsville.” (Ibid.). Brigham’s other wives, except the first, were taken by various brethren, “as he did not at that time have the teams or means to convey his family across the plains . . . though he had used every means in his power to raise an outfit.” Brigham called a council of some of the leading men, including Lee, “against whom no charges could be brought to return to Nauvoo and attend to the selling of the property of the Saints, and to see to fitting out the people and starting them forward.” (Ibid.). Lee then left to do the Prophet’s bidding.
After the Massacre, Brigham protected Lee despite his knowledge of the facts. “. . . Lee, Haight, and others appeared to remain not just in good standing but in Young’s own personal favor. Over time, Young’s inaction led many observers, Mormon and Gentile, to reach the conclusion that he condoned the slaughter.” (Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 282). Young and Lee “maintained a friendly relationship” after the massacre. “Young saw Lee on his trip to southern Utah, ate and lodged with Lee, sanctioned his taking of additional wives, and entered into business relationships with him.” (Ibid., 390). “A remarkable prosperity blessed John D. Lee in the years immediately following the Massacre. He acquired wives, land, wealth, and power at an astonishing rate . . . . He was, by far, the richest man in southern Utah.” (Bagley, Blood of the Prophets, 250). Lee entertained Brigham Young and his parties at New Harmony, and Brigham treated him well until he was “quietly excommunicated” in October 1870. (Ibid., 390). By way of explanation for such extraordinary treatment, Young countered and said “that they had never learned the particuelars until lately.” It was a lame response offered more than a decade after the massacre. “Lee was bewildered by his surrogate father’s newfound displeasure.” (Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 390-91).
“The probate judge for each county was to be elected by the Mormon controlled legislature and commissioned by the governor, LDS Church president Brigham Young.” (John Gary Maxwell, Robert Newton Baskin and the Making of Modern Utah, 54). Lee obtained his job as a Probate Judge after the massacre, through the good offices of Brigham Young and the Legislature, which did nothing without the Mormon Prophet’s consent. Lee also earned a place, after the massacre, as the spiritual leader of the New Harmony Branch. John D. Lee and Isaac Haight retained their positions as Legislators in the Territorial Legislature after the crimes occurred. John D. Lee was a Major in Brigham Young’s Militia, the Iron County Brigade, before and after the Massacre.
“Young did not impose ecclesiastical sanction on those who had organized, led, and condoned the massacre. Haight, Lee, and many others involved in planning and carrying out the murders remained church members in good standing . . . . Moreover, Young continued to bestow fatherly attention on Lee . . . .” (Lee became the presiding elder at Harmony, Utah, in December 1861, four years after the Massacre, “a position he held for the next three years”). “Despite knowledge to the contrary, Young still placed the full blame for the slaughter on the Paiutes . . . .” (Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 309). Until about 1870, more than a decade after the massacre, Brigham Young continued to lie to everyone, everywhere, all of the time. In December 1869, fully twelve years after the murders at Mountain Meadows, George Q. Cannon, who “had known the truth for more than a decade,” also continued to blame the Mountain Meadows Massacre on the Indians (“he claimed the citizens from Cedar City heard rumors of a battle but arrived too late to help”).
After what was but a semblance of a burial, “the dead were covered up or buried”; there “was not much of a burial” – there was a council held at the emigrant camp. There the “leading men made speeches”: Haight, Klingensmith, Higbee, Hopkins and John D. Lee. What captured their attention on that day at the scene of the crime? Thanks to God for delivering our enemies into our hands. Thanks to the brethren for their zeal in God’s cause. Death to anyone who “should divulge the secret, or tell who was present, or do anything that would lead to a discovery of the truth . . . .”
“The most of the speeches, however, were in the shape of exhortations and commands to keep the whole matter secret from every one but Brigham Young.” (Lee, Mormonism Unveiled, 236-37, emphasis added).
Lee was selected, after the Council had met and dispersed, to describe the “whole matter” to Brigham Young. Haight to Lee: “You can report it better than I could write it. You are like a member of Brigham’s family, and can talk to him privately and confidentially.” (Ibid., 240). Without describing yet again what took place at the time of that meeting, let us consider one important detail: “He [Brigham Young] asked me [John D. Lee] many questions, and I told him . . . everything that I knew.” (Ibid., 241). Brigham then said: “Isaac (referring to Haight) has sent me word that if they had killed every man, woman and child in the outfit [the Arkansas emigrant company], there would not have been a drop of innocent blood shed by the brethren; for they were a set of murderers, robbers and thieves.” Men, women and children, “murderers, robbers and thieves.” (Ibid., 241, emphasis added). That message from Haight, in an Express that disappeared, said it all. Haight’s Express told Brigham Young that settlers had already killed men, women and children, shedding innocent blood, a crime of great consequence to temple-endowed second-anointed Latter-day Saints. Haight had not spoken to Brigham Young outside of that Express dated September 7, 1857, since the crime commenced before there was an Express, came to its disappointing conclusion. Haight’s concern was Brigham’s concern, but not an Indian concern. Haight’s September 7, 1857, Letter, caused to disappear, put lie to the incredible notion that the Mountain Meadows Massacre was an Indian affair, and not a Mormon affair. Young’s Response to Haight’s Express was kept concealed till after Brigham Young’s death because Young testified, under oath while he lived, that it couldn’t be found. It could be found, and was, but not until 1884, which was after Brigham’s death. Haight’s Letter to Young, supposed to burn the building down, will never be found. It was the smoking gun. In a church that has committed innumerable crimes against history, this is an extraordinarily important document deep-sixed because of its incriminating contents.
Website: MormonismUnderTheMicroscope.com
submitted by av-law to exmormon [link] [comments]
THEY WERE “BIRDS OF A FEATHER”
Part III - A
Brigham Young’s Knowledge:
Mormon men, “chiefly” white Mormon men (some painted as Indians) – directed by John D. Lee, assisted by Indians directed by John D. Lee – orchestrated the killings of the Arkansas emigrants at Mountain Meadows on September 6-11, 1857. A September surprise: Early Monday morning on September 6, 1857, “a deadly burst of gunfire killed or wounded as many as ten men silhouetted by the campfire in the predawn darkness. Since the Southern Paiutes had few firearms and little skill in using them, the first volley’s destructive power revealed the involvement of a large force of white marksmen and whatever Indian ‘freebooters’ they could enlist. The emigrants chained their wagons together, dug rifle pits and fought back, killing several Indians who Lee had persuaded to lead the attack. Faced with resolute men with Kentucky rifles, ‘the Indians could not do the work,’ Lee realized, and ‘we were in a sad fix.’” (Bigler and Bagley, Mormon Rebellion, 172).
Brigham Young could not but have known that white men spared seventeen children of tender age at Mountain Meadows on September 11, 1857. Not a single parent survived. Mormon militiamen saved children for reasons perfectly obvious to temple-observant Latter-day Saints, like Brigham Young, George Albert Smith, Daniel H. Wells and John D. Lee.
Some of the orphaned children retained “a very vivid impression of much connected with the massacre.” Becky Dunlap “saw David Tullis murder her father and reported that [Jacob] Hamblin’s Indian son, Albert, killed her two sisters.” She and Milum Tackitt “recognized dresses and a part of the jewelry belonging to their mothers, worn by the wives of John D. Lee”; Tackitt also identified his father’s oxen, which were in Lee’s possession. (Bagley, Blood of the Prophets, 239). Other children “frequently pointed out carriages and stock that belonged to the train, stating to whom it belonged.” (Ibid., 239-40). John Calvin Miller “picked arrows from his mother’s body.” He had seen “his grandfather, grandmother, father and mother murdered.” The rescued children told their rescuers that white men assisted in the massacre. They described the white man who came to the corral and got the emigrants “to give up their guns.” White men drove the wagons in which they rode, and “shot the wounded men who had been placed in one of the wagons.” (Ibid., 239-41).
The ties between John D. Lee and Brigham Young survived the massacre. Young visited southern Utah in May 1861. A “key purpose” of that “excursion” was “to ensure that southern Utahns understood the need for silence on the subject of Mountain Meadows.” Lee met Young “near his mansion in Washington County. Brigham Young greeted him with a hearty welcome and took him into his buggy. The entourage of twenty-three carriages followed them to Lee’s mansion house where the ‘whole company seemed to Enjoy themselves well.’” (Bagley, Blood of the Prophets, 246). “While Young’s party visited Toquerville, Lee butchered a steer and two sheep and proposed a second feast at Harmony, this time for some 125 people. Lee had never seen Brigham Young feel better. The prophet spoke for two hours in Lee’s Family Hall. He praised Harmony as ‘the best Fort that had ever been built in this Territory.’” (Ibid., 246).
“30 May [1861], Brigham Young preaches to [a] southern Utah congregation filled with participants in [the] Mountain Meadows Massacre: ‘Pres. Young said that the company that was used up at the Mountain Meadows were the Fathers, Mothers, Bros., Sisters & connections of those that Murdered the Prophets; they Merit[ed] their fate, & the only thing that ever troubled him was the lives of the Women & children [about two-thirds of about one hundred and twenty victims], but that under the circumstances [that] could not be avoided. Although there had been [some] that want[ed] to betray the Brethren into the hands of their Enemies, for that thing [such] will be Damned & go down to Hell. I would be Glad to see one of those traitors.” (Quinn, Extensions of Power, 760, emphasis added). Lee’s Diary: “I would be Glad to see one of those traitors, though I [don’t] Suppose that there is any here now.” Lee then further added this: “They have ran away, & when he [“Pres. Young”] came to the Monument that contained their bones, he made this remark, Vengeance is Mine Saith the Lord, & I have taken a little of it.” (Cleland and Brooks, Diaries of John D. Lee, vol. 1, 314). These indictments of innocent emigrants (exposed as lies in the most recent apologetic, Vengeance Is Mine) were spoken when Brigham Young visited Harmony in 1861, addressed Mountain Meadows Saints in John D. Lee’s “Family Hall,” and also spoke to John D. Lee, “who recorded the church president’s statements on the massacre.” (Cleland and Brooks, Diaries: John D. Lee, Vol. 1, 314, quoted in Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 310). Did this shortly after-the-massacre account sound like Brigham believed for more than a decade that the Indians ambushed the emigrants and Mormons weren’t involved?
In that same year (1861), Young, in company with others, traveled to Mountain Meadows. There he saw the inscription on a makeshift monument that Major James Carleton and members of the United States Army had erected “in memory of the massacre victims. On top of a twelve-foot mound of rocks, a wooden cross bore an inscription from the New Testament epistle to the Romans: ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.’” A witness to Young’s reaction, “fellow traveler Wilford Woodruff,” said that, “Young suggested that it should read, ‘Vengence is mine and I have taken a little.’” “God had punished the emigrants, either for their misdeeds or for the misdeeds of other Gentiles. Several sources assert that members of Young’s party destroyed the monument.” (Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 309).
Young’s brilliant biographer, John G. Turner, concluded as follows: “Even if he did not order the monument’s destruction, Young’s words on his 1861 trip south denigrated the massacre’s victims and defended the Mormon murderers.” (Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 310). Turner called Young’s words in Lee’s Family Hall “callous justification of the deaths of unarmed men, women and children . . . .” John D. Lee’s iteration in his contemporaneous journal “represents an expansion of the sentiment Young had expressed at the monument itself. By 1861, Young knew that Mormons bore responsibility for the crime and wanted to make sure that their fellow church members shielded them from prosecution.” (Ibid., 310). There is ample additional evidence that he knew who did these deeds in 1857. Why else would he destroy Isaac Haight’s September 7, 1857, Letter to him, a smoking gun? He knew what happened there, and who to blame, before he spoke to the New Harmony crowd and John D. Lee, and much earlier to Phillip Klingensmith, Charles Hopkins, George Albert Smith, Daniel H. Wells, Jacob Hamblin and others, including Indian allies, shortly after the crime occurred. He knew when he received Isaac Haight’s Express, a message to which a more decent man would have provided a more honest response. A man not looking for scapegoats. “For Young, everything else was secondary to the preservation of the church, including the standards of morality the Latter-day Saints usually shared with other mid-nineteenth-century Americans.” (Ibid., 310).
Protecting Lee:
The exodus West featured Brigham Young, under a January 1846 Indictment for Counterfeiting, leaving Nauvoo with John D. Lee in tow, before good weather allowed. When Brigham Young left on the 10th of February 1846 with a small company, and crossed the Mississippi River on the ice into Iowa, John D. Lee crossed two wagons with the first company. (Lee, Confessions, 171). “Brigham did this [braved the weather] in order to elude the officers. He waited there [in Iowa at Sugar Creek] until all who could fit themselves out could join him.” John D. Lee: “I took one of Brigham’s wives, Emeline, in one of my wagons, with Louisa, her sister, as far as Florence or Rainsville.” (Ibid.). Brigham’s other wives, except the first, were taken by various brethren, “as he did not at that time have the teams or means to convey his family across the plains . . . though he had used every means in his power to raise an outfit.” Brigham called a council of some of the leading men, including Lee, “against whom no charges could be brought to return to Nauvoo and attend to the selling of the property of the Saints, and to see to fitting out the people and starting them forward.” (Ibid.). Lee then left to do the Prophet’s bidding.
After the Massacre, Brigham protected Lee despite his knowledge of the facts. “. . . Lee, Haight, and others appeared to remain not just in good standing but in Young’s own personal favor. Over time, Young’s inaction led many observers, Mormon and Gentile, to reach the conclusion that he condoned the slaughter.” (Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 282). Young and Lee “maintained a friendly relationship” after the massacre. “Young saw Lee on his trip to southern Utah, ate and lodged with Lee, sanctioned his taking of additional wives, and entered into business relationships with him.” (Ibid., 390). “A remarkable prosperity blessed John D. Lee in the years immediately following the Massacre. He acquired wives, land, wealth, and power at an astonishing rate . . . . He was, by far, the richest man in southern Utah.” (Bagley, Blood of the Prophets, 250). Lee entertained Brigham Young and his parties at New Harmony, and Brigham treated him well until he was “quietly excommunicated” in October 1870. (Ibid., 390). By way of explanation for such extraordinary treatment, Young countered and said “that they had never learned the particuelars until lately.” It was a lame response offered more than a decade after the massacre. “Lee was bewildered by his surrogate father’s newfound displeasure.” (Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 390-91).
“The probate judge for each county was to be elected by the Mormon controlled legislature and commissioned by the governor, LDS Church president Brigham Young.” (John Gary Maxwell, Robert Newton Baskin and the Making of Modern Utah, 54). Lee obtained his job as a Probate Judge after the massacre, through the good offices of Brigham Young and the Legislature, which did nothing without the Mormon Prophet’s consent. Lee also earned a place, after the massacre, as the spiritual leader of the New Harmony Branch. John D. Lee and Isaac Haight retained their positions as Legislators in the Territorial Legislature after the crimes occurred. John D. Lee was a Major in Brigham Young’s Militia, the Iron County Brigade, before and after the Massacre.
“Young did not impose ecclesiastical sanction on those who had organized, led, and condoned the massacre. Haight, Lee, and many others involved in planning and carrying out the murders remained church members in good standing . . . . Moreover, Young continued to bestow fatherly attention on Lee . . . .” (Lee became the presiding elder at Harmony, Utah, in December 1861, four years after the Massacre, “a position he held for the next three years”). “Despite knowledge to the contrary, Young still placed the full blame for the slaughter on the Paiutes . . . .” (Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet, 309). Until about 1870, more than a decade after the massacre, Brigham Young continued to lie to everyone, everywhere, all of the time. In December 1869, fully twelve years after the murders at Mountain Meadows, George Q. Cannon, who “had known the truth for more than a decade,” also continued to blame the Mountain Meadows Massacre on the Indians (“he claimed the citizens from Cedar City heard rumors of a battle but arrived too late to help”).
After what was but a semblance of a burial, “the dead were covered up or buried”; there “was not much of a burial” – there was a council held at the emigrant camp. There the “leading men made speeches”: Haight, Klingensmith, Higbee, Hopkins and John D. Lee. What captured their attention on that day at the scene of the crime? Thanks to God for delivering our enemies into our hands. Thanks to the brethren for their zeal in God’s cause. Death to anyone who “should divulge the secret, or tell who was present, or do anything that would lead to a discovery of the truth . . . .”
“The most of the speeches, however, were in the shape of exhortations and commands to keep the whole matter secret from every one but Brigham Young.” (Lee, Mormonism Unveiled, 236-37, emphasis added).
Lee was selected, after the Council had met and dispersed, to describe the “whole matter” to Brigham Young. Haight to Lee: “You can report it better than I could write it. You are like a member of Brigham’s family, and can talk to him privately and confidentially.” (Ibid., 240). Without describing yet again what took place at the time of that meeting, let us consider one important detail: “He [Brigham Young] asked me [John D. Lee] many questions, and I told him . . . everything that I knew.” (Ibid., 241). Brigham then said: “Isaac (referring to Haight) has sent me word that if they had killed every man, woman and child in the outfit [the Arkansas emigrant company], there would not have been a drop of innocent blood shed by the brethren; for they were a set of murderers, robbers and thieves.” Men, women and children, “murderers, robbers and thieves.” (Ibid., 241, emphasis added). That message from Haight, in an Express that disappeared, said it all. Haight’s Express told Brigham Young that settlers had already killed men, women and children, shedding innocent blood, a crime of great consequence to temple-endowed second-anointed Latter-day Saints. Haight had not spoken to Brigham Young outside of that Express dated September 7, 1857, since the crime commenced before there was an Express, came to its disappointing conclusion. Haight’s concern was Brigham’s concern, but not an Indian concern. Haight’s September 7, 1857, Letter, caused to disappear, put lie to the incredible notion that the Mountain Meadows Massacre was an Indian affair, and not a Mormon affair. Young’s Response to Haight’s Express was kept concealed till after Brigham Young’s death because Young testified, under oath while he lived, that it couldn’t be found. It could be found, and was, but not until 1884, which was after Brigham’s death. Haight’s Letter to Young, supposed to burn the building down, will never be found. It was the smoking gun. In a church that has committed innumerable crimes against history, this is an extraordinarily important document deep-sixed because of its incriminating contents.
Website: MormonismUnderTheMicroscope.com
2024.05.11 23:59 gen3r1x Was sexually assaulted by a client - was lied to by HR and Management
Hey guys, so I thought I was extremely happy at this company I work for, but the way this was handled behind my back has me reconsidering.
I do in home sales, and a gay client sexually assaulted me while in the home. I did what I could to not lose my job, but left the situation. I never followed up with the client, because I wanted nothing to do with him after. I initially didn’t report it out of embarrassment, fear for my career, and that I didn’t need the negativity and paperwork in my life.
The client then reported me via a survey for not providing a quote for services. Management confronted me, and then I reported the incident, and explained why I never followed up. The VP of sales of the company as well as my direct manager heard my complaint directly, and I was assured personally by the head of HR and the VP of sales that this client was to be blacklisted, and we would never do business with him.
Come to find out, another rep sold him on the contract I would have generated yesterday. Now two reps will be making commission from this customer that I was assured was blacklisted.
I lied to, betrayed, and frankly disgusted. Do I have legal options here?
submitted by gen3r1x to legaladvice [link] [comments]
I do in home sales, and a gay client sexually assaulted me while in the home. I did what I could to not lose my job, but left the situation. I never followed up with the client, because I wanted nothing to do with him after. I initially didn’t report it out of embarrassment, fear for my career, and that I didn’t need the negativity and paperwork in my life.
The client then reported me via a survey for not providing a quote for services. Management confronted me, and then I reported the incident, and explained why I never followed up. The VP of sales of the company as well as my direct manager heard my complaint directly, and I was assured personally by the head of HR and the VP of sales that this client was to be blacklisted, and we would never do business with him.
Come to find out, another rep sold him on the contract I would have generated yesterday. Now two reps will be making commission from this customer that I was assured was blacklisted.
I lied to, betrayed, and frankly disgusted. Do I have legal options here?
2024.05.11 22:01 thr0waway345562 Would I be an asshole if I told my best friends girlfriend that she’s been obsessively flirting with a guy.
My (16F) bestfriend (16F) who I'll call Kaitlyn has been really obsessed with this guy (16M) who I'll call Cooper for 2 years now. They flirted back and forth a little back in 2022, but it was mostly her and he wasn't very interested. At some point in the summer, he started playing games with her every now and then and then completely dipped. She never got completely over him.
Fast forward to now, Kaitlyn is in a relationship with a girl (15F) who I'll call Lea. Everything was going well until she started talking to Cooper again. Originally he was just sending her shirtless pics and she was freaking out. Then, she spent the day at his school to try and find him and was shaking and crying afterwards when she found out he had been looking for her too. After that, they had a phone call one on one where he was very overtly flirting and she ended up posting about 6 different tiktoks and instagram stories quoting him, posting his name with hearts and "The Boy is Mine" by Brandy in the background. Just overall freaking out and being very obvious about her adoration for him.
Lea has been damn near perfect to Kaitlyn this whole time and really doesn't deserve to be strung along while Kaitlyn chases this other guy. The problem is, Kaitlyn refuses to admit how big of a problem this is and thinks "well if it was gonna happen, it would've already happened". This would be true if it wasn't for the fact that A. it's already happening and B. he got out of a long term relationship (the one he was in when she started liking him) 2 months ago. The timing makes perfect sense.
I hate watching this happen and i genuinely feel so bad for Lea. It's already escalating and i have no doubt it will continue to do so. If I don't say anything or do anything, then I feel like an awful person for just standing by and letting someone get hurt. If I do something, then I'm betraying my best friend and it could very much flip back on me.
Kaitlyn thinks that because there's a chance he's just messing with her, it's okay for her to flirt with him and obsess over him behind Lea's back. I disagree.
Additional Info: This is not the first time this has happened, she ended up leaving her ex boyfriend for Cooper trying to get him, all while Cooper was in a relationship. I have threatened to tell Lea what's going on but was more of an empty threat.
Would I be the Asshole if i snitched?
submitted by thr0waway345562 to TwoHotTakes [link] [comments]
Fast forward to now, Kaitlyn is in a relationship with a girl (15F) who I'll call Lea. Everything was going well until she started talking to Cooper again. Originally he was just sending her shirtless pics and she was freaking out. Then, she spent the day at his school to try and find him and was shaking and crying afterwards when she found out he had been looking for her too. After that, they had a phone call one on one where he was very overtly flirting and she ended up posting about 6 different tiktoks and instagram stories quoting him, posting his name with hearts and "The Boy is Mine" by Brandy in the background. Just overall freaking out and being very obvious about her adoration for him.
Lea has been damn near perfect to Kaitlyn this whole time and really doesn't deserve to be strung along while Kaitlyn chases this other guy. The problem is, Kaitlyn refuses to admit how big of a problem this is and thinks "well if it was gonna happen, it would've already happened". This would be true if it wasn't for the fact that A. it's already happening and B. he got out of a long term relationship (the one he was in when she started liking him) 2 months ago. The timing makes perfect sense.
I hate watching this happen and i genuinely feel so bad for Lea. It's already escalating and i have no doubt it will continue to do so. If I don't say anything or do anything, then I feel like an awful person for just standing by and letting someone get hurt. If I do something, then I'm betraying my best friend and it could very much flip back on me.
Kaitlyn thinks that because there's a chance he's just messing with her, it's okay for her to flirt with him and obsess over him behind Lea's back. I disagree.
Additional Info: This is not the first time this has happened, she ended up leaving her ex boyfriend for Cooper trying to get him, all while Cooper was in a relationship. I have threatened to tell Lea what's going on but was more of an empty threat.
Would I be the Asshole if i snitched?
2024.05.11 22:00 thr0waway345562 Would I be the Asshole if i told my best friend’s girlfriend that she’s been obsessively flirting with a guy?
My (16F) bestfriend (16F) who I'll call Kaitlyn has been really obsessed with this guy (16M) who I'll call Cooper for 2 years now. They flirted back and forth a little back in 2022, but it was mostly her and he wasn't very interested. At some point in the summer, he started playing games with her every now and then and then completely dipped. She never got completely over him.
Fast forward to now, Kaitlyn is in a relationship with a girl (15F) who I'll call Lea. Everything was going well until she started talking to Cooper again. Originally he was just sending her shirtless pics and she was freaking out. Then, she spent the day at his school to try and find him and was shaking and crying afterwards when she found out he had been looking for her too. After that, they had a phone call one on one where he was very overtly flirting and she ended up posting about 6 different tiktoks and instagram stories quoting him, posting his name with hearts and "The Boy is Mine" by Brandy in the background. Just overall freaking out and being very obvious about her adoration for him.
Lea has been damn near perfect to Kaitlyn this whole time and really doesn't deserve to be strung along while Kaitlyn chases this other guy.
The problem is, Kaitlyn refuses to admit how big of a problem this is and thinks "well if it was gonna happen, it would've already happened". This would be true if it wasn't for the fact that A. it's already happening and B. he got out of a long term relationship (the one he was in when she started liking him) 2 months ago. The timing makes perfect sense.
I hate watching this happen and i genuinely feel so bad for Lea. It's already escalating and i have no doubt it will continue to do so. If I don't say anything or do anything, then I feel like an awful person for just standing by and letting someone get hurt. If I do something, then I'm betraying my best friend and it could very much flip back on me.
Kaitlyn thinks that because there's a chance he's just messing with her, it's okay for her to flirt with him and obsess over him behind Lea's back. I disagree.
Additional Info: This is not the first time this has happened, she ended up leaving her ex boyfriend for Cooper trying to get him, all while Cooper was in a relationship. Difference is, this time she’s not leaving. She’s stringing Lea along. I have threatened to tell Lea what's going on but was more of an empty threat.
Would I be the Asshole if i snitched?
submitted by thr0waway345562 to AITAH [link] [comments]
Fast forward to now, Kaitlyn is in a relationship with a girl (15F) who I'll call Lea. Everything was going well until she started talking to Cooper again. Originally he was just sending her shirtless pics and she was freaking out. Then, she spent the day at his school to try and find him and was shaking and crying afterwards when she found out he had been looking for her too. After that, they had a phone call one on one where he was very overtly flirting and she ended up posting about 6 different tiktoks and instagram stories quoting him, posting his name with hearts and "The Boy is Mine" by Brandy in the background. Just overall freaking out and being very obvious about her adoration for him.
Lea has been damn near perfect to Kaitlyn this whole time and really doesn't deserve to be strung along while Kaitlyn chases this other guy.
The problem is, Kaitlyn refuses to admit how big of a problem this is and thinks "well if it was gonna happen, it would've already happened". This would be true if it wasn't for the fact that A. it's already happening and B. he got out of a long term relationship (the one he was in when she started liking him) 2 months ago. The timing makes perfect sense.
I hate watching this happen and i genuinely feel so bad for Lea. It's already escalating and i have no doubt it will continue to do so. If I don't say anything or do anything, then I feel like an awful person for just standing by and letting someone get hurt. If I do something, then I'm betraying my best friend and it could very much flip back on me.
Kaitlyn thinks that because there's a chance he's just messing with her, it's okay for her to flirt with him and obsess over him behind Lea's back. I disagree.
Additional Info: This is not the first time this has happened, she ended up leaving her ex boyfriend for Cooper trying to get him, all while Cooper was in a relationship. Difference is, this time she’s not leaving. She’s stringing Lea along. I have threatened to tell Lea what's going on but was more of an empty threat.
Would I be the Asshole if i snitched?
2024.05.11 21:29 socratesandstark [SF] Imperia Res
Centuries from now, in the year 2364 CE, 57 years after the Choice of Empire—The elected Emperor of the Solar System and his family are massacred by the Sargons, a rival family who seized the throne and created chaos across the Empire. Caleb, the youngest son of the slain Emperor, was saved by the Altas, who were once friends of his family until they mysteriously exiled themselves from the imperium many years ago and remained hidden in an unknown location ever since.
Caleb is now in that faraway place, beyond the reach of the Sargons, where he will live in refuge and prepare for the day when he can have vengeance, justice, and redemption—and possibly salvation.
Burrowed deep within an asteroid in the Belt of the Solar System is a secret community of scientists, artists, thinkers, and engineers led by the Altas. A large hole is tunneled through the face of the asteroid, the entrance to the hidden world within. It was made to look like a human eye.
Its name is the Iris.
[Interlude]
Caleb woke from a deep sleep. The salt of his tears had dried on his face and sweat covered his body. He looked around the room and saw a man who was like an uncle to him asleep on a chair next to his bed: Han Moret, the leader of the Altas.
Caleb thought that Han Moret looked younger and radiant. His hair, once thin, was now full. His body, once frail, was now strong. His skin, once wrinkled, was now smooth and shining.
Caleb got up from the bed and put a hand on Han Moret’s shoulder.
“Han,” he whispered.
Han Moret woke with a start, “Christ!” then smiled when he saw Caleb, “Oh, hello my dear boy.”
Caleb was quiet for a while. “Why couldn’t you save them?”
Han Moret sighed and looked to the ground, “We didn’t have time. We learned of the Sargons’ plans too late. You were in your bedroom and everyone else was in the throne room. Saving you was the only way, all we could do. The best we could do.” He raised his head, “I’m sorry Caleb. I’ll never forgive myself for not being there, for not being able to do more. But you’re here now. We’ll help you. We’ll fight back and win. I can promise you that. I can give you that.”
“How?”
Han Moret grinned, “Come. Let me show you what we’ve been working on all these years. Why I left all those years ago.” He walked to the door and opened it, “Welcome to the Iris.”
Within the asteroid was a colossal garden paradise: waving golden fields and rolling green hills, thick forests and snow-capped mountains, gleaming towers and sprawling villas, vast lakes and flowing streams, smaller suns and lesser moons orbiting each other in the center—worlds within a world.
They walked through a field and stopped beneath a large oak tree.
“Han, this is incredible. How did you do it?” Caleb asked.
“Trillions of builders. Quattuordecillion, actually.” Han Moret raised his hand and an apple fell into it. He took a bite, “Probably more.”
“But there’s only…How many people are here?”
“A couple hundred. 964, I think. No, Arina was born this morning, 965.” He furrowed his brow, “Why do you ask?”
“Trillions of builders, hundreds here?”
“Oh! Right, yes. I see. Come, come. You’ll see too.”
While they were walking, Caleb learned that Han Moret was still fond of long and rambling monologues:
“Isn’t it obvious? Look around us. Well, beyond the asteroid. We seem to be alone in the Universe, but the probability that other life exists says otherwise. So what’s the explanation? It’s simple. We are the first intelligent life in the Universe. It makes sense when you think about it. Our homeworld, the planet Earth, was among the first habitable planets that formed in the Universe after it began, earlier than around 90% of the other habitable planets which now exist! And most of the habitable planets that will ever be formed in the Universe haven’t even formed yet. So, the planet Earth was one of the first habitable planets in the Universe that could support the rise of life and its long evolutionary development into intelligent life, to beings like us. Therefore, assuming that life out there will fundamentally be the same as it is here, and assuming that it only arises in an Earth-like environment, it shouldn’t be surprising that humans developed before others. You see, someone has to be first. There must be a first form of intelligent life in the Universe, before the rest. But it seems like no one has considered that maybe we’re alone in the Universe right now because we are the first and others will come after us, and maybe the others are already in the process of doing so, so we won’t be alone for long. And when those future life-forms ask the same questions as us, “Is anyone out there? Are we alone in the Universe?” we will be there to answer them, to be their aliens, to give them the comfort we never had and accelerate their development like we never could. And this is all the better too, because we’re going to need all the help we can get to do the ultimate thing, since the only reason we exist is to…”
“Han, thank you, that was…enlightening. But what does it have to do with what you were going to show me?”
“What? Oh, nothing. Sorry. What were we talking about? Ah yes, how we built the Iris. Fear not, the answer lies ahead.”
They walked further through the field towards a clearing. And there, out in the open, was a scientific laboratory and engineering workshop, tables and equipment and all with nothing but the sky above and a beautiful world surrounding them.
Han Moret led Caleb to an empty table, “So, here is it boyo. What do you see?”
“Uh, nothing.”
“Ha! Yes, but in nothing there is everything. For from nothing…” Han Moret glanced at the table and appeared to concentrate, then the table grew into a tree “…something.”
Han Moret tapped a finger to his head, “Mind-controlled nano-bots. That’s how we built this place. A one-to-one control of atoms within our local environment, limited to the area in which nano-bots are dispersed and the reach of electromagnetic signals emitted from implants in the brain, also limited by the mental symbiosis between a group of people if they’re working together, and of course the extent of their imagination. Everything within the Iris is touched by the stuff, so everything is under our control.”
“That’s…How did you do it?”
“Trade secret I’m afraid. But here, we call it…” Han Moret slapped the side of Caleb’s head, “…Pleroma.”
“Ow!”
“There! Brain implanted. You are now pleromatized. You can control the world around you, or at least the little bit within your proximate sphere. No worries, the plerons are easily inserted and removed, so no harm, no foul. Go on and try it. Synchronization is instantaneous, but learning how to use it is, well, a process. Your ability to control the world is determined by the strength of your mind—your concentration and focus. It depends on the speed and coherence of your imagination, the complexity and detail of your mental constructions, along with the depth of your knowledge and your intelligence, clarity of thinking, force of will, and, most importantly, very most importantly, the strength of your Self. Meditation helps, as does improving your brain with the stuff once you get the hang of it, but none of that will matter if you are not strong within. Oh, and you can change your body too.”
“Ah, so that’s why you look younger and glowing.”
“Indeed, and thank you. I’ve never felt better, haven’t been sick in years. We certainly look…godly, don’t you think? Although the secondary effects of being able to control our brains and bodies have been far more numerous than we anticipated, mostly socially, very odd and interesting things, but that’s a conversation and exhibition for later. If I may continue, with the Pleroma, the strength of your mind determines your power over the world, so if your mind is stronger than others, then you can overpower them. For example…”
Caleb’s body rose from the ground and hovered for a moment, then returned.
“See?” Han Moret said. “I could feel your instinctive surprise and mental resistance, but alas, I’ve had this stuff longer than you, and my mind is, for the time being at least, stronger than yours, so your resistance was, as they say, futile. The plerons that made their way into your body when you entered the Iris obeyed my commands and not yours, and your body obeyed my mind and not your own. Now, your turn. Try and turn the tree into something.”
Caleb looked at the tree and tried to concentrate. He vaguely imagined things, but was unsure of what to create and how. The tree became a gray mass, then began to violently vibrate and rapidly shapeshift. Colors flashed and textures flickered. Various sounds blasted all at once. It seemed like reality was having a seizure. And then the asteroid began to rumble…
“Woah! Alright, alright! Not bad for your first try. Certainly better than others. You have a powerful mind, no doubt, but not yet a disciplined one.”
Han Moret waved his hand and smoothed the chaotic patch of existence back to an empty table. “We’ll try it again soon. Mastering the Pleroma will require a lot of practice and self-improvement. I can improve your brain of course, if you’d like, it’ll help speed up the process and enhance your basic abilities, but even with a better brain, you’ll still fail to use the Pleroma if you don’t improve your consciousness, your mind—your Self. You must become stronger, Caleb—not physically, but mentally—if you want to master this power over the world. You could have a perfect brain, but if you don’t perfect your Self, then the Pleroma will be useless, as we just saw. You’ll only create chaos in the world and others will be able to control you.”
“Yeah, alright, I understand. But Han! That was amazing. I’ve never felt…I’ve never felt like that before.”
“Yes, but it is so much more than that, Caleb, so much more. You’ve only seen the least of it, the smallest bit. You see, this is why we had to leave the Empire. Weren’t you listening before? I was onto something. We’re going to need all the help we can get, including from other forms of life, if we are going to do the ultimate thing, since the only reason we exist is to prevent the end of the Universe.
For centuries, we’ve known that, given the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the Universe will end in the future, or at least its habitability for life—for us! We know this, and so we have a responsibility to do something about it, to stop it from happening so that life can keep living. ‘We’ are the Universe—just a local collection of its atoms, yes, but an equal part of its whole nevertheless—and we have within us both the genetic urge to survive and a personal desire to not die, so we can say that the Universe itself does not want us to die, or rather it does not want to die itself. Don’t you see? The purpose of our lives, the purpose of the Universe, is embedded within the structure of our existence. But how do we prevent the end of the Universe exactly? We don’t know the answer to that yet, specifically. That’ll take time. But we do know the basics of the answer, and it is very simple: we must control the Universe to prevent its end, and to do that, we must become God.
If humankind is to live forever, and more importantly ensure that there is a world in which we can live forever, then we must gain the knowledge and power to control the Universe so that we can prevent its end. In other words, we must become all-knowing and all-powerful, or at least gain sufficient knowledge and power to ensure that we can have an endless life in infinite eternity, through whatever ways we can. But whichever way ultimately works, we’ll need to create an eternal home for life, and that’s Godhood boyo. That’s the ultimate thing, and the Pleroma is a first step towards that: controlling the world around us with our minds, instantaneous creation by command. It’s a growing up for us. We began as children, born from the God of the Great Unknown at the Beginning, and we must grow up to become God to prevent the Great Known at the End. That’s the only thing when you think about it, our only purpose and the measure of our being, the direction of our progress and the future we’re heading towards: Godhood. If we don’t, then we will have accepted the end of the Universe and the eventual death of humankind, and everything before that will become pointless, the value and meaning of our lives will become forfeit. If we choose to do nothing or say that it’s impossible without trying, then we condemn the generations of the future to ultimate destruction, and in the long stretch of time, we will have annihilated the basic and universal value of human life, and therefore annihilate our own value too. Even if the end of the Universe will happen billions of years from now, or much sooner from some natural or cosmic catastrophe, that’s just a number that seems big to us, so the number doesn’t matter, it could billions of years from now or tomorrow—or today. On the scale of the Universe, what’s the difference between a billion and one, tomorrow and today? If humankind will become extinct in the future, no matter how many years from now, then there will be no point to all of this.
No, we must save ourselves by preventing the end of the Universe and become God to achieve that salvation. What comes after that? I don’t know. But for now, I know that we must spend our days working to achieve Godhood. That’s why we’re here and nothing else matters, except of course to make life worth saving, by making it worth living, by spreading love and creating art and asking questions and filling the darkness around us with light and the color of our lives, to expand outwards until we reach the end and then go beyond it—always onward, always creating, always living. You see, the end gives us our beginning. We begin at the end. God created and God will save, because we will become God to save ourselves. I call it the Anthroteloeschacosmological Principle, the purpose of humankind arising from the end of the Universe. I tell myself a little poem every morning: “The Universe will end / and I will die / if today I do nothing / to save starlight and humankind.” I wrote all this in an anonymous essay a few years back, The Salvation of the Universe…”
“That was you?”
“Yes, and it made quite a stir across the imperium as I understand it, but nary an effect. Typical. Anyways, we must prevent the end of the Universe—by whatever means, at all costs, and within moral bounds. The Sargons knew this and accepted the first two, but they rejected the last. I grew up with them. We discussed it often, along with your father. The Sargons think morality is an obstacle, a human thing that will prevent us from becoming God. They think Godhood is only about being all-knowing and all-powerful, but we Altas think differently. We think morality is essential to Godhood, because being all-knowing and all-powerful will be pointless if we are not also all-good, or at least as good as we can be when we try. Without morality, that wonderfully human thing—determining what is good and evil and then making it so—there’d be no point in becoming God, because there’d be nothing worth saving in the end. We’d just be a heap of atoms that figured out how to perpetuate themselves, like all of the other forms of life in the Universe, except on a bigger scale. But we are not like the other forms of life. No, we are different, and that’s what makes us so special and important. What’s the point of living if not for something, and why are we unique if not because of our morality allows us to say, “This is good and this is bad,” and then use that power to shape the world around us according to our imagination and will, enhanced by our knowledge and technology?
So you see Caleb, this is why we had to leave the Empire. We all know that the Universe will end in the future, but it seemed to us Altas like were the only ones who understood the significance of that fact, what it means for us and our purpose in life, the responsibilities that it gives us. We saw that the plan for existence is embedded in the structure of the Universe, our destiny and fate written across the stars, but when we looked around, we saw that everyone was living their days as if it wasn’t so, ignoring our ultimate purpose and wasting their time on lesser things. We had to leave, you see, to be away from the limitations and distractions of Empire, so we could do the work to achieve Godhood, to take the first step in leaving our childhood to create the Pleroma.
Your father disagreed with all this. He thought Godhood was a silly idea based on old religious notions. And that’s what makes what happened all the worse. You see, the Altas and the Sargons agreed with each other. We were unified against your father in our belief that we must achieve Godhood and that the stagnation of the Empire was preventing us from doing so, and your father was leading that stagnation, so we both felt compelled to take action. The difference between us, however, the vital difference, is that we Altas believe in morality, so we left the Empire to work in peaceful isolation, and the Sargons do not, so they murdered your family to seize power.”
And with that, Han Moret was finished.
Caleb was silent for a while. “But, I don’t understand. If you had this the entire time, why couldn’t you save my family when the Sargons attacked? Why couldn’t you use it to protect them? You could’ve prevented all of this. Why didn’t you share it with us?”
“Because the Pleroma is still in development, Caleb. It still has its imperfections and unknowns. We’ve only worked within the asteroid so far, and only with a small group of people who already had deep bonds and a shared way of thinking and years of training together as the power of the Pleroma slowly progressed, so our learning was limited by the pace of its development. And this was good, since the Pleroma would be apocalyptic in the wrong hands. This asteroid, these people, are minuscule compared to the scale of the Empire, to the true extent of what the Pleroma could reach and do. So, with all of its unknowns, we couldn’t risk deploying it beyond the Iris, and we couldn’t risk revealing ourselves by going beyond it and using it or building transmission relays across the Solar System so we could take long-distance action from here. We had precious little time after learning of the Sargon’s betrayal. And once we were there, in the fog of war, for all we know we could’ve killed your family if we had tried to intervene. Not everyone here has mastered the Pleroma yet, especially to use it in such a complex and rapidly changing atomic environment like war, with life and death in the balance, with its intense mental pressures and emotional reactions and all that would test the mental strength of even the best of us, even me. So, even if I had brought the best of us when it happened, we couldn’t risk trying it for the first time in such a situation, especially with such a close proximity between friends and foes. But we’re improving it and eliminating its imperfections, we’re learning, and it’s nearly ready to be used beyond this little home of ours.”
Now Han Moret was silent for a while. He looked around the Iris.
“I… You see Caleb…” He tried to gather his thoughts, but was conflicted between defending himself against Caleb’s criticisms and trying to proceed with his planned lecture. “With the Pleroma, we can control the Universe, both around us and within us. Everything, everywhere, all the time. And time itself too! Though that’s still in the experimental stages. One fellow tried to slow time by condensing his local spacetime and then went poof and, well, we don’t quite know where he is at the moment, but we’ll find him…hopefully. But with this stuff, we can speak and it shall be. We can create by command and move worlds with a wave of our hand. Dear, I’m getting poetic, but isn’t it so? This is what we’ve been working on all these years. And once we created it, we knew that the people of the Empire weren’t ready for it, so we remained in hiding. Most people beyond the Iris aren’t mentally and spiritually strong enough to have this power without creating chaos, destruction, and death across the Solar System, especially with the Sargons around. But now, with the Sargons in power, with chaos across the imperium, with you here, we think that perhaps it’s time. You have a powerful story Caleb, and you were born into a unique position to sway the hearts and minds of the people to shape the course of Empire and help them. And as your old tutor, well, I have faith in you, especially now that you’ve seen the Pleroma and understand what it can do and what’s at stake. I believe you can do what we could not and prepare the way towards a better future.
What are those quotes from the books I used to read you? ‘A people shall come, and when they say, “Be…” It shall be,’ and ‘Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, so that a flood of waters may cover you? Can you send forth lightning, so it may go and declare, ‘Here we are?” That is this. We are it. Speak your voice, Caleb. Manifest your spirit. Create by command. With this, you can do anything, everything…” he amplified his voice to make it was deep and booming, “…ALL.”
And with the last word, hundreds of people suddenly appeared around Caleb.
A few hours passed and it was night. The suns above had dimmed, sharing their fading light with rising moonlight, creating a new and beautiful natural phenomenon that Caleb had never seen before, what the people of the Iris called a Sunrisset.
They were all in the field, groups of them sitting around bonfires. The ceiling of the asteroid was made transparent so they could see the stars around them. They were celebrating the arrival of Caleb and the simple fact that another day had passed of which they had come to know. Some of the fires were multi-colored, shifting with the mood and intentions of the people around them. Around one of them was a woman singing an ancient song. The flames danced and rose and changed colors to match her pitch and rhythm and tune—and when she finished with a climax, the flames burst into the sky, adding sparks to the stars. Throughout the night, there were fireworks from all directions and mini-supernovae exploding in the sky. Auroras waved above and among and between them. Such was life in paradise.
As conversation mixed with music and song, there was, most of all, a feast. It was the best food and drink that Caleb had ever tasted.
Han Moret gave another lecture, “Food is just chemistry, a unique combination of atoms that interacts with our taste buds to cause a specific reaction in the brain: pleasure. And with the Pleroma, we can have it all the time.”
“Don’t you get used to it though, having the best food all the time? What’s that saying, without the ordinary there’d be nothing extraordinary?” Caleb asked.
“I used to think that, but it’s been years and the food is still great, so no, you don’t get used to it. It’s utopia here boyo, paradise, the land of the blessed, whatever you want to call it, and not just culinary-wise. We can control our brains and bodies on the micro-level, so there’s no disease and, more importantly, no aging. I realize I might’ve buried the lead on that one, but yeah, we’re immortal here too, along with everything else. Godhood again. Everyone in the Alta, anyone touched by the Pleroma, will live forever, or at least as long as they choose and not be murdered by nature, which is all that matters. We can create anything we might need and want, and so we have everything we might need and want. It’s utopia, but it’s not without its problems.
Frankly, utopia is not all it’s cracked up to be. It’s certainly better than the past and something that everyone should have, power and abundance and immortality and all, and we’ll help them get there, certainly, but it’s not the final place, not by a long shot. Even with all of this, we have a lot to do and further to go. You see, when all the problems are solved, when you can have anything you want all the time, some people just get bored. Who would’ve thought that heaven would be boring. But it is so. Since humans began on the planet Earth all those years ago, our purpose was to survive and solve the problems that nature laid on us—scarcity, poverty, ignorance, disease—so we could have a brief moment to pursue our happiness before we died. But what happens when our survival is secured, the problems are solved, and we have infinite opportunities to pursue our happiness? Wouldn’t life get boring? That’s what we’re struggling with now. Frankly, utopia doesn’t agree with everyone. There’s trouble in paradise and all. Ah, perfect timing. Look over there. See him?”
Han Moret pointed to a man who was a few bonfires over. He was drunk and stumbling through the crowd. Since the man was pleromatized, he had a literal aura of drunkenness around him and projected a blurred existence beyond his body that wreaked a playful and entertaining havoc on others as he walked by.
“Damn it, Thrax. Not again!” someone shouted.
Han Moret continued, “You see, many people here have chosen to drown themselves in happiness and never resurface, as if that’s the only end and aim in life. Maybe it is, maybe we haven’t found the true meaning of happiness yet, maybe there’s something else, who knows, but with the ability to instantly create whatever we want whenever we want it and cure our bodies of anything, a lot of people have chosen to exist in what, in my opinion, is a false state of happiness. They get drunk and use drugs or just go straight to the source and alter their biochemistry so they can remain in a permanent state of euphoria, and they can do so without harm because the Pleroma prevents damage from constant intoxication and allows them to become sober immediately, whenever they choose, so their productivity remains the same, which makes it harder for me to argue that they should imbibe less. There have been many arguments about it. But it’s undeniably a feat of hedonic adaptation for our species when you think about, being bored in heaven and all. Nevertheless, many people like that fellow Thrax over there seem to never want to end it, their eternal happiness. I don’t know, boyo. We’ve done wonders here, but it’s not perfect, far from it.”
Han Moret was silent for a while and looked lost in thought, “Anyways! Apologies, I’ve strayed from my prepared remarks. There’s more for you to learn. Alright, what’s next? Yes, one of my favorites. Lora! Get over here.”
A wind blew through the camp and a woman appeared in front of Caleb. She looked into his eyes and smiled flirtatiously, then became wind again and reappeared behind Caleb. She tapped him on the shoulder and then rose above the ground and swirled around him, finally landing on the seat next to him.
“Hello, Caleb. It’s a pleasure to meet you.” She drunkenly leaned into him, “So, did he tell you about the sex yet?”
“Uh…” He looked to Han Moret, who was conveniently looking elsewhere. “No.”
“Of course not, the prit. An old-fashioned manners man through and through. But my god! You have to try it. Imagine two people are like two atoms and now they’re having sex, but people are many atoms, octillions of them, so sex with the Pleroma is octillion times greater, a grinding cloud of pleasure, a great orgy of the Universe, all between two people, or more if that’s your taste. Does that make sense? Oh! See that electric cloud thing in the sky over there? There you go, some people are having a go at it,” thunder rolled across the camp, “and by the sound of it, having a lot of fun. One night when the elders were away and the kids were in bed, we younger ones—well young is relative now, I guess—but anyways, we wanted to test the limits of the stuff, and man…let’s just say we filled the space and rocked the place a little too literally.”
Han Moret interrupted, “Yes you did. Thank you, Lora. You may go now.”
Lora laughed, then kissed Caleb on the cheek and disappeared, creating a golden streak of light across the camp as she moved to another bonfire.
Han Moret resumed his lecture, “So, as you just saw, when you can control the atoms of your body, you can move yourself around. In other words, you can fly. Now, after hearing this, there is, logically, an obvious question.”
Caleb thought for a moment. “How is the mind not destroyed when the body are deconstructed and moved? Wouldn’t the person die in the process?”
“Correct! That is something we did not know until we tried it, or rather one person. Some crazy bastard just tried it one day and it worked, and from the fruit of such courageous experimentation we learned a lot about the nature and structure of consciousness. We still don’t know everything though. We know it has something to do with the attachment of plerons to neural atoms and the signals that they send to each other across a distance, like a spatial expansion of the underlying physical structure of consciousness, but we’re still figuring it out. For now, though, the important thing is that it works.”
“But isn’t the reconstructed person just a copy of the deconstructed one and not really the original person? Wouldn’t the original person be destroyed during deconstruction?”
“No, it’s them. When you go from body to nebulous state to body again, you can feel yourself the entire time. There aren’t any gaps or skips. It’s a continuous process, from one point to another, and you’re aware of it throughout. You can feel yourself dissolving, then nebulous and moving, then coming together again. And let me tell you, when you’re scattered like that, truly at one with the Universe, it’s liberating. It feels like…” Han Moret searched for the right words “…pure being.”
He continued, “Anyways, we’re nearing the end of the night, so let’s end it with a bang. What do you want? You can have anything you’d like. Some Viking ale?” A horned cup appeared in his hand. “One of those Parisian cafes we toured on Earth?” He tossed the cup in front of him and it became a miraged-like partition of one. “An ancient mosque?” The cafe rearranged into one. “A conversation with the legendary President Takhani?” The mosque condensed into the 22nd century woman. “Or better yet, how about a chat with another me?” The President morphed into another Han Moret.
“Fret not, he’s just a copy of me. Not really me. He’s not actually alive at all. Doesn’t have a consciousness. Just a puppet on my mental strings. Anyways, anything you want. What do you say?
Caleb stared at the fire and the flames slowed. He thought “my family” and must have unknowingly projected due to his intense emotional state, because Han Moret sighed.
“I’m sorry Caleb. I can’t do that…Not yet.”
The copy of Han Moret chimed in, “But we’re working on it!”
“Yes, thank you. We’re working on it, trying to resurrect the dead. So far, we can recreate the bodies of those who have been, but it’s recreating their consciousness that’s the tricky part. As you’ve seen, we can deconstruct and reconstruct the consciousness of living individuals across space while maintaining their continuity of being. The Self isn’t destroyed. It’s reconstructing…Hold on, that reminds me.”
The copy of Han Moret dissolved.
“That’s better. It’s reconstructing consciousness across time that’s the problem. Specifically, it’s reconnecting the consciousness of someone who lived in the past at the moment of their death, the presumed termination of their consciousness stream and Self, to the present that’s proving difficult. We’re trying to connect disjointed time-points between death and now so we can restore a dead person’s continuity of being, their true and original Self. We have the ability to create a likeness of someone’s consciousness, dead or alive, as I just showed, but it’s not truly them, it’s just a copy of them. If we can resurrect their stream of consciousness, awaken them from what would seem like a long nap, then we will have achieved true immortality, and not just for those who are living and yet to be born, but for all those who have been, all of the billions who once existed in the Universe, back in the world alive and well, forever. And we’re close, Caleb, we’re close. We actually made a big step today. Let me show you.” He amplified his voice and carried it on the wind, “Arina!”
A young and beautiful woman appeared. Caleb struggled to think of another word than “perfect.”
“Meet Arina. It’s her birthday, by the way.”
“Hello, Arina. Happy….” Caleb stopped because he recognized the name and remembered his conversation with Han Moret earlier. “Hold on, when I asked you how many people were in the Iris, you said that someone named Arina was born today.”
“And indeed they were. Her. The first of her kind, a fully grown human created by the Pleroma. Instantaneous creation. Now, I can anticipate your train of thought, and yes, the ethics of missing childhood with all its memories and growth and learning are concerning, and we will explore them, but we are in the first days of this stuff, so there will be many questions, and we are ready to answer them. But regardless, we constructed a new consciousness boyo! We did it, and we’re learning. Perhaps we can spark consciousness in animals too, any form of life actually…maybe even non-life come to think of it. But the next step is to resurrect old consciousness, which, as you know, would be the true power of resurrection. Godhood again! I told you Caleb, we’re seeking Godhood here, and we’re gaining a little of it every day.”
Han Moret seemed satisfied with himself and took a deep breath. “Alright, I think that’s enough for tonight. You’ve had a long day and have been shown much. Time for some rest. We Irisians don’t need sleep anymore, but you certainly do. Your body isn’t used to the godly life yet, so…tut tut, time for bed.”
The next day, Han Moret flew himself and Caleb around the Iris. Children passed by in the air on their way to school and nearly crashed into them several times, laughing. After a while, Caleb and Han Moret landed near the edge of a lake.
“See them?” Han Moret gestured to a man and woman in the distance between the lake and the foothills of a mountain. They were in the midst of combat. As they fought, various weapons rapidly materialized and dematerialized in their hands; each strike and block with someone new: now a sword, then a bow and arrow, now an axe, then a spear. They were flying and shifting and moving in a rhythmic flow, using the land around them and pure force as weapons. It was a literal storm of battle, as if reality was at war with itself, clashing shards of spacetime, two gods battling in a field.
“So, you want me to learn how to do that? Fight with the Pleroma to defeat the Sargons?” Caleb asked.
“Fight? No, those two are just bored, so they’re having a little dance. For Earth’s sake, Caleb. Haven’t you been listening? Watch.”
There was a boom in the distance. Caleb looked to where a mountain was, or rather, where it used to be, since it was missing. Han Moret had destroyed it instantly, deleting it from existence.
“With this, all you need is to be in the same room as them and then boom, gone forever in the blink of an eye, with only a thought, without even a fight, without even a flinch. Theoretically, you don’t even need to be in the same room as them. You could be here and destroy them wherever they are in the Solar System with targeted pleron dispersal and sufficient transmission relays. You could do whatever you want wherever you want. But I think the people need to see you, Caleb. They need to see you standing before the Sargons, declaring their wrongs, making things right. They need to hear your words, your plans for the future, and see the awesome power of this stuff, how it will change everything. Because with this, there will be no more war. With this, we become God. We’ll live forever, boyo. We’re free now. What will we do? Ah, so much, so much. There’s so much we can do now! Peace in our time, gods in Empire. A new day in a new age. It’s coming, Caleb. Gods among us because they become us. Are you ready?”
Caleb thought for a moment, then closed his eyes and stood in silence.
After a while, he flashed his hand. And all at once, a burst of wind blew, thunder cracked, and the suns shone brighter—the world shook.
He opened his eyes, “Yes.”
submitted by socratesandstark to shortstories [link] [comments]
Caleb is now in that faraway place, beyond the reach of the Sargons, where he will live in refuge and prepare for the day when he can have vengeance, justice, and redemption—and possibly salvation.
Burrowed deep within an asteroid in the Belt of the Solar System is a secret community of scientists, artists, thinkers, and engineers led by the Altas. A large hole is tunneled through the face of the asteroid, the entrance to the hidden world within. It was made to look like a human eye.
Its name is the Iris.
[Interlude]
Caleb woke from a deep sleep. The salt of his tears had dried on his face and sweat covered his body. He looked around the room and saw a man who was like an uncle to him asleep on a chair next to his bed: Han Moret, the leader of the Altas.
Caleb thought that Han Moret looked younger and radiant. His hair, once thin, was now full. His body, once frail, was now strong. His skin, once wrinkled, was now smooth and shining.
Caleb got up from the bed and put a hand on Han Moret’s shoulder.
“Han,” he whispered.
Han Moret woke with a start, “Christ!” then smiled when he saw Caleb, “Oh, hello my dear boy.”
Caleb was quiet for a while. “Why couldn’t you save them?”
Han Moret sighed and looked to the ground, “We didn’t have time. We learned of the Sargons’ plans too late. You were in your bedroom and everyone else was in the throne room. Saving you was the only way, all we could do. The best we could do.” He raised his head, “I’m sorry Caleb. I’ll never forgive myself for not being there, for not being able to do more. But you’re here now. We’ll help you. We’ll fight back and win. I can promise you that. I can give you that.”
“How?”
Han Moret grinned, “Come. Let me show you what we’ve been working on all these years. Why I left all those years ago.” He walked to the door and opened it, “Welcome to the Iris.”
Within the asteroid was a colossal garden paradise: waving golden fields and rolling green hills, thick forests and snow-capped mountains, gleaming towers and sprawling villas, vast lakes and flowing streams, smaller suns and lesser moons orbiting each other in the center—worlds within a world.
They walked through a field and stopped beneath a large oak tree.
“Han, this is incredible. How did you do it?” Caleb asked.
“Trillions of builders. Quattuordecillion, actually.” Han Moret raised his hand and an apple fell into it. He took a bite, “Probably more.”
“But there’s only…How many people are here?”
“A couple hundred. 964, I think. No, Arina was born this morning, 965.” He furrowed his brow, “Why do you ask?”
“Trillions of builders, hundreds here?”
“Oh! Right, yes. I see. Come, come. You’ll see too.”
While they were walking, Caleb learned that Han Moret was still fond of long and rambling monologues:
“Isn’t it obvious? Look around us. Well, beyond the asteroid. We seem to be alone in the Universe, but the probability that other life exists says otherwise. So what’s the explanation? It’s simple. We are the first intelligent life in the Universe. It makes sense when you think about it. Our homeworld, the planet Earth, was among the first habitable planets that formed in the Universe after it began, earlier than around 90% of the other habitable planets which now exist! And most of the habitable planets that will ever be formed in the Universe haven’t even formed yet. So, the planet Earth was one of the first habitable planets in the Universe that could support the rise of life and its long evolutionary development into intelligent life, to beings like us. Therefore, assuming that life out there will fundamentally be the same as it is here, and assuming that it only arises in an Earth-like environment, it shouldn’t be surprising that humans developed before others. You see, someone has to be first. There must be a first form of intelligent life in the Universe, before the rest. But it seems like no one has considered that maybe we’re alone in the Universe right now because we are the first and others will come after us, and maybe the others are already in the process of doing so, so we won’t be alone for long. And when those future life-forms ask the same questions as us, “Is anyone out there? Are we alone in the Universe?” we will be there to answer them, to be their aliens, to give them the comfort we never had and accelerate their development like we never could. And this is all the better too, because we’re going to need all the help we can get to do the ultimate thing, since the only reason we exist is to…”
“Han, thank you, that was…enlightening. But what does it have to do with what you were going to show me?”
“What? Oh, nothing. Sorry. What were we talking about? Ah yes, how we built the Iris. Fear not, the answer lies ahead.”
They walked further through the field towards a clearing. And there, out in the open, was a scientific laboratory and engineering workshop, tables and equipment and all with nothing but the sky above and a beautiful world surrounding them.
Han Moret led Caleb to an empty table, “So, here is it boyo. What do you see?”
“Uh, nothing.”
“Ha! Yes, but in nothing there is everything. For from nothing…” Han Moret glanced at the table and appeared to concentrate, then the table grew into a tree “…something.”
Han Moret tapped a finger to his head, “Mind-controlled nano-bots. That’s how we built this place. A one-to-one control of atoms within our local environment, limited to the area in which nano-bots are dispersed and the reach of electromagnetic signals emitted from implants in the brain, also limited by the mental symbiosis between a group of people if they’re working together, and of course the extent of their imagination. Everything within the Iris is touched by the stuff, so everything is under our control.”
“That’s…How did you do it?”
“Trade secret I’m afraid. But here, we call it…” Han Moret slapped the side of Caleb’s head, “…Pleroma.”
“Ow!”
“There! Brain implanted. You are now pleromatized. You can control the world around you, or at least the little bit within your proximate sphere. No worries, the plerons are easily inserted and removed, so no harm, no foul. Go on and try it. Synchronization is instantaneous, but learning how to use it is, well, a process. Your ability to control the world is determined by the strength of your mind—your concentration and focus. It depends on the speed and coherence of your imagination, the complexity and detail of your mental constructions, along with the depth of your knowledge and your intelligence, clarity of thinking, force of will, and, most importantly, very most importantly, the strength of your Self. Meditation helps, as does improving your brain with the stuff once you get the hang of it, but none of that will matter if you are not strong within. Oh, and you can change your body too.”
“Ah, so that’s why you look younger and glowing.”
“Indeed, and thank you. I’ve never felt better, haven’t been sick in years. We certainly look…godly, don’t you think? Although the secondary effects of being able to control our brains and bodies have been far more numerous than we anticipated, mostly socially, very odd and interesting things, but that’s a conversation and exhibition for later. If I may continue, with the Pleroma, the strength of your mind determines your power over the world, so if your mind is stronger than others, then you can overpower them. For example…”
Caleb’s body rose from the ground and hovered for a moment, then returned.
“See?” Han Moret said. “I could feel your instinctive surprise and mental resistance, but alas, I’ve had this stuff longer than you, and my mind is, for the time being at least, stronger than yours, so your resistance was, as they say, futile. The plerons that made their way into your body when you entered the Iris obeyed my commands and not yours, and your body obeyed my mind and not your own. Now, your turn. Try and turn the tree into something.”
Caleb looked at the tree and tried to concentrate. He vaguely imagined things, but was unsure of what to create and how. The tree became a gray mass, then began to violently vibrate and rapidly shapeshift. Colors flashed and textures flickered. Various sounds blasted all at once. It seemed like reality was having a seizure. And then the asteroid began to rumble…
“Woah! Alright, alright! Not bad for your first try. Certainly better than others. You have a powerful mind, no doubt, but not yet a disciplined one.”
Han Moret waved his hand and smoothed the chaotic patch of existence back to an empty table. “We’ll try it again soon. Mastering the Pleroma will require a lot of practice and self-improvement. I can improve your brain of course, if you’d like, it’ll help speed up the process and enhance your basic abilities, but even with a better brain, you’ll still fail to use the Pleroma if you don’t improve your consciousness, your mind—your Self. You must become stronger, Caleb—not physically, but mentally—if you want to master this power over the world. You could have a perfect brain, but if you don’t perfect your Self, then the Pleroma will be useless, as we just saw. You’ll only create chaos in the world and others will be able to control you.”
“Yeah, alright, I understand. But Han! That was amazing. I’ve never felt…I’ve never felt like that before.”
“Yes, but it is so much more than that, Caleb, so much more. You’ve only seen the least of it, the smallest bit. You see, this is why we had to leave the Empire. Weren’t you listening before? I was onto something. We’re going to need all the help we can get, including from other forms of life, if we are going to do the ultimate thing, since the only reason we exist is to prevent the end of the Universe.
For centuries, we’ve known that, given the Second Law of Thermodynamics, the Universe will end in the future, or at least its habitability for life—for us! We know this, and so we have a responsibility to do something about it, to stop it from happening so that life can keep living. ‘We’ are the Universe—just a local collection of its atoms, yes, but an equal part of its whole nevertheless—and we have within us both the genetic urge to survive and a personal desire to not die, so we can say that the Universe itself does not want us to die, or rather it does not want to die itself. Don’t you see? The purpose of our lives, the purpose of the Universe, is embedded within the structure of our existence. But how do we prevent the end of the Universe exactly? We don’t know the answer to that yet, specifically. That’ll take time. But we do know the basics of the answer, and it is very simple: we must control the Universe to prevent its end, and to do that, we must become God.
If humankind is to live forever, and more importantly ensure that there is a world in which we can live forever, then we must gain the knowledge and power to control the Universe so that we can prevent its end. In other words, we must become all-knowing and all-powerful, or at least gain sufficient knowledge and power to ensure that we can have an endless life in infinite eternity, through whatever ways we can. But whichever way ultimately works, we’ll need to create an eternal home for life, and that’s Godhood boyo. That’s the ultimate thing, and the Pleroma is a first step towards that: controlling the world around us with our minds, instantaneous creation by command. It’s a growing up for us. We began as children, born from the God of the Great Unknown at the Beginning, and we must grow up to become God to prevent the Great Known at the End. That’s the only thing when you think about it, our only purpose and the measure of our being, the direction of our progress and the future we’re heading towards: Godhood. If we don’t, then we will have accepted the end of the Universe and the eventual death of humankind, and everything before that will become pointless, the value and meaning of our lives will become forfeit. If we choose to do nothing or say that it’s impossible without trying, then we condemn the generations of the future to ultimate destruction, and in the long stretch of time, we will have annihilated the basic and universal value of human life, and therefore annihilate our own value too. Even if the end of the Universe will happen billions of years from now, or much sooner from some natural or cosmic catastrophe, that’s just a number that seems big to us, so the number doesn’t matter, it could billions of years from now or tomorrow—or today. On the scale of the Universe, what’s the difference between a billion and one, tomorrow and today? If humankind will become extinct in the future, no matter how many years from now, then there will be no point to all of this.
No, we must save ourselves by preventing the end of the Universe and become God to achieve that salvation. What comes after that? I don’t know. But for now, I know that we must spend our days working to achieve Godhood. That’s why we’re here and nothing else matters, except of course to make life worth saving, by making it worth living, by spreading love and creating art and asking questions and filling the darkness around us with light and the color of our lives, to expand outwards until we reach the end and then go beyond it—always onward, always creating, always living. You see, the end gives us our beginning. We begin at the end. God created and God will save, because we will become God to save ourselves. I call it the Anthroteloeschacosmological Principle, the purpose of humankind arising from the end of the Universe. I tell myself a little poem every morning: “The Universe will end / and I will die / if today I do nothing / to save starlight and humankind.” I wrote all this in an anonymous essay a few years back, The Salvation of the Universe…”
“That was you?”
“Yes, and it made quite a stir across the imperium as I understand it, but nary an effect. Typical. Anyways, we must prevent the end of the Universe—by whatever means, at all costs, and within moral bounds. The Sargons knew this and accepted the first two, but they rejected the last. I grew up with them. We discussed it often, along with your father. The Sargons think morality is an obstacle, a human thing that will prevent us from becoming God. They think Godhood is only about being all-knowing and all-powerful, but we Altas think differently. We think morality is essential to Godhood, because being all-knowing and all-powerful will be pointless if we are not also all-good, or at least as good as we can be when we try. Without morality, that wonderfully human thing—determining what is good and evil and then making it so—there’d be no point in becoming God, because there’d be nothing worth saving in the end. We’d just be a heap of atoms that figured out how to perpetuate themselves, like all of the other forms of life in the Universe, except on a bigger scale. But we are not like the other forms of life. No, we are different, and that’s what makes us so special and important. What’s the point of living if not for something, and why are we unique if not because of our morality allows us to say, “This is good and this is bad,” and then use that power to shape the world around us according to our imagination and will, enhanced by our knowledge and technology?
So you see Caleb, this is why we had to leave the Empire. We all know that the Universe will end in the future, but it seemed to us Altas like were the only ones who understood the significance of that fact, what it means for us and our purpose in life, the responsibilities that it gives us. We saw that the plan for existence is embedded in the structure of the Universe, our destiny and fate written across the stars, but when we looked around, we saw that everyone was living their days as if it wasn’t so, ignoring our ultimate purpose and wasting their time on lesser things. We had to leave, you see, to be away from the limitations and distractions of Empire, so we could do the work to achieve Godhood, to take the first step in leaving our childhood to create the Pleroma.
Your father disagreed with all this. He thought Godhood was a silly idea based on old religious notions. And that’s what makes what happened all the worse. You see, the Altas and the Sargons agreed with each other. We were unified against your father in our belief that we must achieve Godhood and that the stagnation of the Empire was preventing us from doing so, and your father was leading that stagnation, so we both felt compelled to take action. The difference between us, however, the vital difference, is that we Altas believe in morality, so we left the Empire to work in peaceful isolation, and the Sargons do not, so they murdered your family to seize power.”
And with that, Han Moret was finished.
Caleb was silent for a while. “But, I don’t understand. If you had this the entire time, why couldn’t you save my family when the Sargons attacked? Why couldn’t you use it to protect them? You could’ve prevented all of this. Why didn’t you share it with us?”
“Because the Pleroma is still in development, Caleb. It still has its imperfections and unknowns. We’ve only worked within the asteroid so far, and only with a small group of people who already had deep bonds and a shared way of thinking and years of training together as the power of the Pleroma slowly progressed, so our learning was limited by the pace of its development. And this was good, since the Pleroma would be apocalyptic in the wrong hands. This asteroid, these people, are minuscule compared to the scale of the Empire, to the true extent of what the Pleroma could reach and do. So, with all of its unknowns, we couldn’t risk deploying it beyond the Iris, and we couldn’t risk revealing ourselves by going beyond it and using it or building transmission relays across the Solar System so we could take long-distance action from here. We had precious little time after learning of the Sargon’s betrayal. And once we were there, in the fog of war, for all we know we could’ve killed your family if we had tried to intervene. Not everyone here has mastered the Pleroma yet, especially to use it in such a complex and rapidly changing atomic environment like war, with life and death in the balance, with its intense mental pressures and emotional reactions and all that would test the mental strength of even the best of us, even me. So, even if I had brought the best of us when it happened, we couldn’t risk trying it for the first time in such a situation, especially with such a close proximity between friends and foes. But we’re improving it and eliminating its imperfections, we’re learning, and it’s nearly ready to be used beyond this little home of ours.”
Now Han Moret was silent for a while. He looked around the Iris.
“I… You see Caleb…” He tried to gather his thoughts, but was conflicted between defending himself against Caleb’s criticisms and trying to proceed with his planned lecture. “With the Pleroma, we can control the Universe, both around us and within us. Everything, everywhere, all the time. And time itself too! Though that’s still in the experimental stages. One fellow tried to slow time by condensing his local spacetime and then went poof and, well, we don’t quite know where he is at the moment, but we’ll find him…hopefully. But with this stuff, we can speak and it shall be. We can create by command and move worlds with a wave of our hand. Dear, I’m getting poetic, but isn’t it so? This is what we’ve been working on all these years. And once we created it, we knew that the people of the Empire weren’t ready for it, so we remained in hiding. Most people beyond the Iris aren’t mentally and spiritually strong enough to have this power without creating chaos, destruction, and death across the Solar System, especially with the Sargons around. But now, with the Sargons in power, with chaos across the imperium, with you here, we think that perhaps it’s time. You have a powerful story Caleb, and you were born into a unique position to sway the hearts and minds of the people to shape the course of Empire and help them. And as your old tutor, well, I have faith in you, especially now that you’ve seen the Pleroma and understand what it can do and what’s at stake. I believe you can do what we could not and prepare the way towards a better future.
What are those quotes from the books I used to read you? ‘A people shall come, and when they say, “Be…” It shall be,’ and ‘Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, so that a flood of waters may cover you? Can you send forth lightning, so it may go and declare, ‘Here we are?” That is this. We are it. Speak your voice, Caleb. Manifest your spirit. Create by command. With this, you can do anything, everything…” he amplified his voice to make it was deep and booming, “…ALL.”
And with the last word, hundreds of people suddenly appeared around Caleb.
A few hours passed and it was night. The suns above had dimmed, sharing their fading light with rising moonlight, creating a new and beautiful natural phenomenon that Caleb had never seen before, what the people of the Iris called a Sunrisset.
They were all in the field, groups of them sitting around bonfires. The ceiling of the asteroid was made transparent so they could see the stars around them. They were celebrating the arrival of Caleb and the simple fact that another day had passed of which they had come to know. Some of the fires were multi-colored, shifting with the mood and intentions of the people around them. Around one of them was a woman singing an ancient song. The flames danced and rose and changed colors to match her pitch and rhythm and tune—and when she finished with a climax, the flames burst into the sky, adding sparks to the stars. Throughout the night, there were fireworks from all directions and mini-supernovae exploding in the sky. Auroras waved above and among and between them. Such was life in paradise.
As conversation mixed with music and song, there was, most of all, a feast. It was the best food and drink that Caleb had ever tasted.
Han Moret gave another lecture, “Food is just chemistry, a unique combination of atoms that interacts with our taste buds to cause a specific reaction in the brain: pleasure. And with the Pleroma, we can have it all the time.”
“Don’t you get used to it though, having the best food all the time? What’s that saying, without the ordinary there’d be nothing extraordinary?” Caleb asked.
“I used to think that, but it’s been years and the food is still great, so no, you don’t get used to it. It’s utopia here boyo, paradise, the land of the blessed, whatever you want to call it, and not just culinary-wise. We can control our brains and bodies on the micro-level, so there’s no disease and, more importantly, no aging. I realize I might’ve buried the lead on that one, but yeah, we’re immortal here too, along with everything else. Godhood again. Everyone in the Alta, anyone touched by the Pleroma, will live forever, or at least as long as they choose and not be murdered by nature, which is all that matters. We can create anything we might need and want, and so we have everything we might need and want. It’s utopia, but it’s not without its problems.
Frankly, utopia is not all it’s cracked up to be. It’s certainly better than the past and something that everyone should have, power and abundance and immortality and all, and we’ll help them get there, certainly, but it’s not the final place, not by a long shot. Even with all of this, we have a lot to do and further to go. You see, when all the problems are solved, when you can have anything you want all the time, some people just get bored. Who would’ve thought that heaven would be boring. But it is so. Since humans began on the planet Earth all those years ago, our purpose was to survive and solve the problems that nature laid on us—scarcity, poverty, ignorance, disease—so we could have a brief moment to pursue our happiness before we died. But what happens when our survival is secured, the problems are solved, and we have infinite opportunities to pursue our happiness? Wouldn’t life get boring? That’s what we’re struggling with now. Frankly, utopia doesn’t agree with everyone. There’s trouble in paradise and all. Ah, perfect timing. Look over there. See him?”
Han Moret pointed to a man who was a few bonfires over. He was drunk and stumbling through the crowd. Since the man was pleromatized, he had a literal aura of drunkenness around him and projected a blurred existence beyond his body that wreaked a playful and entertaining havoc on others as he walked by.
“Damn it, Thrax. Not again!” someone shouted.
Han Moret continued, “You see, many people here have chosen to drown themselves in happiness and never resurface, as if that’s the only end and aim in life. Maybe it is, maybe we haven’t found the true meaning of happiness yet, maybe there’s something else, who knows, but with the ability to instantly create whatever we want whenever we want it and cure our bodies of anything, a lot of people have chosen to exist in what, in my opinion, is a false state of happiness. They get drunk and use drugs or just go straight to the source and alter their biochemistry so they can remain in a permanent state of euphoria, and they can do so without harm because the Pleroma prevents damage from constant intoxication and allows them to become sober immediately, whenever they choose, so their productivity remains the same, which makes it harder for me to argue that they should imbibe less. There have been many arguments about it. But it’s undeniably a feat of hedonic adaptation for our species when you think about, being bored in heaven and all. Nevertheless, many people like that fellow Thrax over there seem to never want to end it, their eternal happiness. I don’t know, boyo. We’ve done wonders here, but it’s not perfect, far from it.”
Han Moret was silent for a while and looked lost in thought, “Anyways! Apologies, I’ve strayed from my prepared remarks. There’s more for you to learn. Alright, what’s next? Yes, one of my favorites. Lora! Get over here.”
A wind blew through the camp and a woman appeared in front of Caleb. She looked into his eyes and smiled flirtatiously, then became wind again and reappeared behind Caleb. She tapped him on the shoulder and then rose above the ground and swirled around him, finally landing on the seat next to him.
“Hello, Caleb. It’s a pleasure to meet you.” She drunkenly leaned into him, “So, did he tell you about the sex yet?”
“Uh…” He looked to Han Moret, who was conveniently looking elsewhere. “No.”
“Of course not, the prit. An old-fashioned manners man through and through. But my god! You have to try it. Imagine two people are like two atoms and now they’re having sex, but people are many atoms, octillions of them, so sex with the Pleroma is octillion times greater, a grinding cloud of pleasure, a great orgy of the Universe, all between two people, or more if that’s your taste. Does that make sense? Oh! See that electric cloud thing in the sky over there? There you go, some people are having a go at it,” thunder rolled across the camp, “and by the sound of it, having a lot of fun. One night when the elders were away and the kids were in bed, we younger ones—well young is relative now, I guess—but anyways, we wanted to test the limits of the stuff, and man…let’s just say we filled the space and rocked the place a little too literally.”
Han Moret interrupted, “Yes you did. Thank you, Lora. You may go now.”
Lora laughed, then kissed Caleb on the cheek and disappeared, creating a golden streak of light across the camp as she moved to another bonfire.
Han Moret resumed his lecture, “So, as you just saw, when you can control the atoms of your body, you can move yourself around. In other words, you can fly. Now, after hearing this, there is, logically, an obvious question.”
Caleb thought for a moment. “How is the mind not destroyed when the body are deconstructed and moved? Wouldn’t the person die in the process?”
“Correct! That is something we did not know until we tried it, or rather one person. Some crazy bastard just tried it one day and it worked, and from the fruit of such courageous experimentation we learned a lot about the nature and structure of consciousness. We still don’t know everything though. We know it has something to do with the attachment of plerons to neural atoms and the signals that they send to each other across a distance, like a spatial expansion of the underlying physical structure of consciousness, but we’re still figuring it out. For now, though, the important thing is that it works.”
“But isn’t the reconstructed person just a copy of the deconstructed one and not really the original person? Wouldn’t the original person be destroyed during deconstruction?”
“No, it’s them. When you go from body to nebulous state to body again, you can feel yourself the entire time. There aren’t any gaps or skips. It’s a continuous process, from one point to another, and you’re aware of it throughout. You can feel yourself dissolving, then nebulous and moving, then coming together again. And let me tell you, when you’re scattered like that, truly at one with the Universe, it’s liberating. It feels like…” Han Moret searched for the right words “…pure being.”
He continued, “Anyways, we’re nearing the end of the night, so let’s end it with a bang. What do you want? You can have anything you’d like. Some Viking ale?” A horned cup appeared in his hand. “One of those Parisian cafes we toured on Earth?” He tossed the cup in front of him and it became a miraged-like partition of one. “An ancient mosque?” The cafe rearranged into one. “A conversation with the legendary President Takhani?” The mosque condensed into the 22nd century woman. “Or better yet, how about a chat with another me?” The President morphed into another Han Moret.
“Fret not, he’s just a copy of me. Not really me. He’s not actually alive at all. Doesn’t have a consciousness. Just a puppet on my mental strings. Anyways, anything you want. What do you say?
Caleb stared at the fire and the flames slowed. He thought “my family” and must have unknowingly projected due to his intense emotional state, because Han Moret sighed.
“I’m sorry Caleb. I can’t do that…Not yet.”
The copy of Han Moret chimed in, “But we’re working on it!”
“Yes, thank you. We’re working on it, trying to resurrect the dead. So far, we can recreate the bodies of those who have been, but it’s recreating their consciousness that’s the tricky part. As you’ve seen, we can deconstruct and reconstruct the consciousness of living individuals across space while maintaining their continuity of being. The Self isn’t destroyed. It’s reconstructing…Hold on, that reminds me.”
The copy of Han Moret dissolved.
“That’s better. It’s reconstructing consciousness across time that’s the problem. Specifically, it’s reconnecting the consciousness of someone who lived in the past at the moment of their death, the presumed termination of their consciousness stream and Self, to the present that’s proving difficult. We’re trying to connect disjointed time-points between death and now so we can restore a dead person’s continuity of being, their true and original Self. We have the ability to create a likeness of someone’s consciousness, dead or alive, as I just showed, but it’s not truly them, it’s just a copy of them. If we can resurrect their stream of consciousness, awaken them from what would seem like a long nap, then we will have achieved true immortality, and not just for those who are living and yet to be born, but for all those who have been, all of the billions who once existed in the Universe, back in the world alive and well, forever. And we’re close, Caleb, we’re close. We actually made a big step today. Let me show you.” He amplified his voice and carried it on the wind, “Arina!”
A young and beautiful woman appeared. Caleb struggled to think of another word than “perfect.”
“Meet Arina. It’s her birthday, by the way.”
“Hello, Arina. Happy….” Caleb stopped because he recognized the name and remembered his conversation with Han Moret earlier. “Hold on, when I asked you how many people were in the Iris, you said that someone named Arina was born today.”
“And indeed they were. Her. The first of her kind, a fully grown human created by the Pleroma. Instantaneous creation. Now, I can anticipate your train of thought, and yes, the ethics of missing childhood with all its memories and growth and learning are concerning, and we will explore them, but we are in the first days of this stuff, so there will be many questions, and we are ready to answer them. But regardless, we constructed a new consciousness boyo! We did it, and we’re learning. Perhaps we can spark consciousness in animals too, any form of life actually…maybe even non-life come to think of it. But the next step is to resurrect old consciousness, which, as you know, would be the true power of resurrection. Godhood again! I told you Caleb, we’re seeking Godhood here, and we’re gaining a little of it every day.”
Han Moret seemed satisfied with himself and took a deep breath. “Alright, I think that’s enough for tonight. You’ve had a long day and have been shown much. Time for some rest. We Irisians don’t need sleep anymore, but you certainly do. Your body isn’t used to the godly life yet, so…tut tut, time for bed.”
The next day, Han Moret flew himself and Caleb around the Iris. Children passed by in the air on their way to school and nearly crashed into them several times, laughing. After a while, Caleb and Han Moret landed near the edge of a lake.
“See them?” Han Moret gestured to a man and woman in the distance between the lake and the foothills of a mountain. They were in the midst of combat. As they fought, various weapons rapidly materialized and dematerialized in their hands; each strike and block with someone new: now a sword, then a bow and arrow, now an axe, then a spear. They were flying and shifting and moving in a rhythmic flow, using the land around them and pure force as weapons. It was a literal storm of battle, as if reality was at war with itself, clashing shards of spacetime, two gods battling in a field.
“So, you want me to learn how to do that? Fight with the Pleroma to defeat the Sargons?” Caleb asked.
“Fight? No, those two are just bored, so they’re having a little dance. For Earth’s sake, Caleb. Haven’t you been listening? Watch.”
There was a boom in the distance. Caleb looked to where a mountain was, or rather, where it used to be, since it was missing. Han Moret had destroyed it instantly, deleting it from existence.
“With this, all you need is to be in the same room as them and then boom, gone forever in the blink of an eye, with only a thought, without even a fight, without even a flinch. Theoretically, you don’t even need to be in the same room as them. You could be here and destroy them wherever they are in the Solar System with targeted pleron dispersal and sufficient transmission relays. You could do whatever you want wherever you want. But I think the people need to see you, Caleb. They need to see you standing before the Sargons, declaring their wrongs, making things right. They need to hear your words, your plans for the future, and see the awesome power of this stuff, how it will change everything. Because with this, there will be no more war. With this, we become God. We’ll live forever, boyo. We’re free now. What will we do? Ah, so much, so much. There’s so much we can do now! Peace in our time, gods in Empire. A new day in a new age. It’s coming, Caleb. Gods among us because they become us. Are you ready?”
Caleb thought for a moment, then closed his eyes and stood in silence.
After a while, he flashed his hand. And all at once, a burst of wind blew, thunder cracked, and the suns shone brighter—the world shook.
He opened his eyes, “Yes.”
2024.05.11 20:43 Playful-Climate3281 can someione pls look at this macbeth supernatural question response and see if its any good,
im currently on a grade 6 and dont think this essay is that great considering its my first time trying a new structure,.
In the extract, Shakespeare effectively presents the idea of the supernatural and implants uncanny thoughts into our heads. This is through the witches and their manipulative and unnerving act. W e see this emulsified through the second witch's words 'something wicked this way comes'. The use of juxtaposition in this quote tells us that even the witches had not expected Macbeth to become this evil and tyrannical through their foresite, 'wicked' suggests Macbeth is now at a stage considered on par with the witches in terms of evil. Furthermore, the use of chremamorphism: 'something' could be telling us that the witches do not recognise him due to his changed character. However, it could also suggest that the witches do not view him as a human any longer due to his immoral and unethical acts. Shakespeare additionally presents manipulation in the witches through their reply to Macbeth with 'A deed without a name' The noun 'deed' informs us that the witches are being secretive of their acts and not revealing their plans to Macbeth. Additionally 'deed' can have connotations of positive and negatives circumstances, which reinforces the idea of a manipulative act put on by the witches. Thus, proving Shakespeare presents the supernatural in the extract as primarily manipulative and unnerving. In the archetypal scottish play 'Macbeth', Shakespeare presents the idea of the supernatural as overall manipulative and evil. This is revealed through countless acts and scenarios in which the witches have played with truths and bended them to create false truths. This is emulsified through Banquo's words 'instruments of darkness tell us truths, win us honest trifles, to betray's'. The metaphor 'instruments of darkness' is used to refer to the witches and how they're able to metaphorically play with who they please, this iniquitous act is further reinforced by the noun 'darkness', which has connotations of evil and impurity. Moreover, the use of foreshadowing in 'to betray's' tells us that Banquo was aware of the supernatural and it's trickery, whilst Macbeth was ignorant and let his ambition take over his brain, acting as his hamartia. This idea is even further proven through Macbeth's own words whilst speaking to himself: 'heat oppressed brain'. This soliloquy is spoken by Macbeth to reveal the witches mental affect on him and how they've caused him immeasurable discomfort and pressure, as proven by the compound adjective 'heat oppressed', which means the witches are metaphorically melding his brain and choosing what he does through manipulation and control. Furthermore, the oxymoron 'oppressed brain' effectively adds a layer to this statement due to Macbeth lacking mental freedom and control. In conclusion, Shakespeare presents the supernatural as a manipulative and corrupted force. This would serve as a message and deterrent to the Jacobean audience in hopes of preventing any contact with spirits or witches.
submitted by Playful-Climate3281 to GCSE [link] [comments]
In the extract, Shakespeare effectively presents the idea of the supernatural and implants uncanny thoughts into our heads. This is through the witches and their manipulative and unnerving act. W e see this emulsified through the second witch's words 'something wicked this way comes'. The use of juxtaposition in this quote tells us that even the witches had not expected Macbeth to become this evil and tyrannical through their foresite, 'wicked' suggests Macbeth is now at a stage considered on par with the witches in terms of evil. Furthermore, the use of chremamorphism: 'something' could be telling us that the witches do not recognise him due to his changed character. However, it could also suggest that the witches do not view him as a human any longer due to his immoral and unethical acts. Shakespeare additionally presents manipulation in the witches through their reply to Macbeth with 'A deed without a name' The noun 'deed' informs us that the witches are being secretive of their acts and not revealing their plans to Macbeth. Additionally 'deed' can have connotations of positive and negatives circumstances, which reinforces the idea of a manipulative act put on by the witches. Thus, proving Shakespeare presents the supernatural in the extract as primarily manipulative and unnerving. In the archetypal scottish play 'Macbeth', Shakespeare presents the idea of the supernatural as overall manipulative and evil. This is revealed through countless acts and scenarios in which the witches have played with truths and bended them to create false truths. This is emulsified through Banquo's words 'instruments of darkness tell us truths, win us honest trifles, to betray's'. The metaphor 'instruments of darkness' is used to refer to the witches and how they're able to metaphorically play with who they please, this iniquitous act is further reinforced by the noun 'darkness', which has connotations of evil and impurity. Moreover, the use of foreshadowing in 'to betray's' tells us that Banquo was aware of the supernatural and it's trickery, whilst Macbeth was ignorant and let his ambition take over his brain, acting as his hamartia. This idea is even further proven through Macbeth's own words whilst speaking to himself: 'heat oppressed brain'. This soliloquy is spoken by Macbeth to reveal the witches mental affect on him and how they've caused him immeasurable discomfort and pressure, as proven by the compound adjective 'heat oppressed', which means the witches are metaphorically melding his brain and choosing what he does through manipulation and control. Furthermore, the oxymoron 'oppressed brain' effectively adds a layer to this statement due to Macbeth lacking mental freedom and control. In conclusion, Shakespeare presents the supernatural as a manipulative and corrupted force. This would serve as a message and deterrent to the Jacobean audience in hopes of preventing any contact with spirits or witches.
2024.05.11 20:13 Playful-Climate3281 can someone please mark this essay on the supernatural macbeth (i know its not that good but its my first tome using a different structure)
 | https://preview.redd.it/dl1j7k549uzc1.png?width=745&format=png&auto=webp&s=8410aed8e01d51081e9efbc38cb07eef55dcbcc4 submitted by Playful-Climate3281 to GCSE [link] [comments] In the extract, Shakespeare effectively presents the idea of the supernatural and implants uncanny thoughts into our heads. This is through the witches and their manipulative and unnerving act. W e see this emulsified through the second witch's words 'something wicked this way comes'. The use of juxtaposition in this quote tells us that even the witches had not expected Macbeth to become this evil and tyrannical through their foresite, 'wicked' suggests Macbeth is now at a stage considered on par with the witches in terms of evil. Furthermore, the use of chremamorphism: 'something' could be telling us that the witches do not recognise him due to his changed character. However, it could also suggest that the witches do not view him as a human any longer due to his immoral and unethical acts. Shakespeare additionally presents manipulation in the witches through their reply to Macbeth with 'A deed without a name' The noun 'deed' informs us that the witches are being secretive of their acts and not revealing their plans to Macbeth. Additionally 'deed' can have connotations of positive and negatives circumstances, which reinforces the idea of a manipulative act put on by the witches. Thus, proving Shakespeare presents the supernatural in the extract as primarily manipulative and unnerving. In the archetypal scottish play 'Macbeth', Shakespeare presents the idea of the supernatural as overall manipulative and evil. This is revealed through countless acts and scenarios in which the witches have played with truths and bended them to create false truths. This is emulsified through Banquo's words 'instruments of darkness tell us truths, win us honest trifles, to betray's'. The metaphor 'instruments of darkness' is used to refer to the witches and how they're able to metaphorically play with who they please, this iniquitous act is further reinforced by the noun 'darkness', which has connotations of evil and impurity. Moreover, the use of foreshadowing in 'to betray's' tells us that Banquo was aware of the supernatural and it's trickery, whilst Macbeth was ignorant and let his ambition take over his brain, acting as his hamartia. This idea is even further proven through Macbeth's own words whilst speaking to himself: 'heat oppressed brain'. This soliloquy is spoken by Macbeth to reveal the witches mental affect on him and how they've caused him immeasurable discomfort and pressure, as proven by the compound adjective 'heat oppressed', which means the witches are metaphorically melding his brain and choosing what he does through manipulation and control. Furthermore, the oxymoron 'oppressed brain' effectively adds a layer to this statement due to Macbeth lacking mental freedom and control. In conclusion, Shakespeare presents the supernatural as a manipulative and corrupted force. This would serve as a message and deterrent to the Jacobean audience in hopes of preventing any contact with spirits or witches. |
2024.05.11 19:13 scoobyman83 Is President Vladimir Putin a globalist and a puppet of the Chabad Lubavitchers?
Propaganda and disinformation about the President of Russia, Vladimir Putin, has been staggering for at least a dozen years. He is credited with being a globalist, a Jew, a puppet of the Jewish satanic sect of Chabad Lubawicz, a criminal, a satrap, etc., etc., etc., as well as the greatest and most powerful opponent of the satanic New World Order. He already said publicly in 2013 (there is an article on our website) that the West is ruled by Satanists. But an objective and honest assessment about Putin can only be made as evidenced by his actions, not photos with various globalist groups.
It should be added here that the leaders of the USSR and then Russia: Mikhail Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin, who led to the collapse of the Soviet Union and then almost Russia itself, were constantly praised by the West … for betraying their countries. It is the same in Poland: traitors are praised, and patriots who care about their own country are slandered and even killed, like Andrzej Lepper.
Vladimir Putin came to power thanks to Boris Yeltsin, who realized that during his reign he was in a snare and therefore drank himself to death. However, as the successor of the perestroika form of rule with strong presidential power, he saved Russia from disintegration and division into 10 countries (the Polish Episcopate, following the Vatican’s guidelines, planned the division of Russia into dioceses and parishes after its collapse), which Colonel Słowacki made public a few years ago.
President Putin implemented his strategy of rebuilding Russia from economic and social ruins (in the late 1990s, 15 million Russian citizens died of starvation as a result of the failure to pay salaries, pensions and disability pensions in Russia – according to official statistics), he implemented step by step in the existing very difficult internal conditions (saturation with the fifth column of all circles of bureaucracy after Presidents Yeltsin and Gorbachev) and external conditions (domination at all levels of power, especially in Western countries, by NWO globalist and their satanic structures). Only the reconstruction of the Russian military, especially with the types of weapons that no one in the world has, allowed Russia, which has been patiently enduring all humiliations from the West for over thirty years, to show first its “lion’s claw” in Syria, and now, on a much larger scale, its “tiger fang” in Ukraine,
At the end of this article, we provide many links to articles about President Vladimir Putin and Russia herself published on our site over the course of 8 years. It is especially important to recall once again Albin Siwak’s talks with the Marshal of the USSR, Wiktor Kulikow, Commander-in-Chief of the Warsaw Pact Forces, incl. about who Vladimir Putin is, described in the book “Boiled Frog Syndrome” [i] and told by the author who wrote this text:
KULIKOW ON PUTIN AND THE SECRET RUSSIAN ORGANIZATION from Siwak’s book
(page 32) “… the same Zhukov also refuted the third myth. After the Second World War, the Jews proclaimed to the whole world that they would never give up power. I mean the NKVD authorities in Moscow. To this day, you can find descriptions of thanksgiving prayers in synagogues in the West. They thanked God that they had power in the USSR and would extend it to the whole world. When Zhukov shot Lavrentiy Beria at a meeting of the Political Bureau and Lazar Kaganovich lost power after Stalin’s death, and Kulikov killed two Moscow garrisons of the NKVD, the Jews of the world had a bad face… ” ;
Statement by Marshal Wiktor Kulikow to Albin Siwak (pages 40-41)“… But by the way, I will tell you that I would never go to a Jew as an adviser, and a Jew would not take me for a simple reason: I would not go, because after the death of Marshal Zhukov, I became the head of a secret organization, precisely this party “Razved”. And this organization was only established to remove Jews from all their positions and functions. That is, removing them from power and the possibility of exerting any influence on the affairs of the state and the fate of people. (…) Well, when Zhukov was carrying out this purge in the Politburo, it would not have been possible if I had not liquidated both NKVD Moscow garrisons with my own people. After all, half an hour before the time designated for the commencement of the operation, Marshal Zhukov gathered at the Ministry of Defense those commanders of the Moscow districts who had specific tasks assigned. I was ordered to liquidate these two NKVD garrisons. And the order was as follows: ~<< Everything that moves there – eliminate it. There are no Russians there. If you do not obey the order, I will have you shot. Anyway, if you do it wrong, they will kill you first. >>~ And the Jews of the world know perfectly well that I was in charge of the division whose soldiers carried out this order. To this day, it is possible to obtain figures for the liquidated two NKVD garrisons, and it is almost four thousand people. And what do you think — the marshal asked me — if Putin were a Jew, would he have accepted me as his adviser. And look at it from a different angle too. First of all, I am an officer, I became a marshal later and for the specific knowledge and trust of the highest authorities, and would I, an officer from the Zhukov school, where our honor was taught and inculcated a lot, go to the service of a Jew with my past? ~So be sure that Putin is a man of Russian roots and those who proclaim his Jewish heritage know it very well.~ But they use a very effective weapon against Putin, because we also had people who believed this nonsense or had doubts as to whether he was a Russian. I will remind you — said the marshal — that they also proclaimed your Russian lineage. We knew the Solidarity newspaper, where Mazowiecki on the front page, in capital letters, said:. “What do you say?” he asked. — The proverb says that if you throw feces on someone, something will stick and stay … … … “
[[ ]()[and] The explanation of the title is as follows: If we throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, it will get burned badly, but it will pop out of the pot, while if we slowly heat the frog slowly but surely, before it realizes it, it will cook to death. This parallel refers to the Polish nation, which is cooked step by step, step by step, and hence the dilemma of whether it will know in time, whether it will be “boiled” like a frog in a pot.]
The cited very credible, first-hand explanation about President Vladimir Putin, obtained from Albin Siwak, who is a friend of Marshal Viktor Kulikov, should suffice, as they have been quoted many times in Albin Siwak’s books and on our website. It should be added here that until his death at the age of 91 in 2013, Marshal Viktor Kulikov was a personal adviser to President Putin and Prime Minister Medvedev for many years.
This information was enough to limit various misinformation only for a few years on the Internet, because the main sewer is the mainstream media, there is no need to count on truth in every topic. But recently, the campaign to slander President Putin has grown to epic proportions due to the demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine by Russia, and above all, a firm stand against the mendacious, deceptive and criminal West ruled by satanic NWO globalists.
___ https://www.klubinteligencjipolskiej.pl/2022/04/czy-prezydent-wladimir-putin-jest-globalista-i-marionetka-chabad-lubawiczerow-dla-domoroslych-politykierow-zaplatanych-w-teorie-spiskowe-i-wlasne-miazmaty-umyslowe/
submitted by scoobyman83 to conspiracy [link] [comments]
It should be added here that the leaders of the USSR and then Russia: Mikhail Gorbachev and Boris Yeltsin, who led to the collapse of the Soviet Union and then almost Russia itself, were constantly praised by the West … for betraying their countries. It is the same in Poland: traitors are praised, and patriots who care about their own country are slandered and even killed, like Andrzej Lepper.
Vladimir Putin came to power thanks to Boris Yeltsin, who realized that during his reign he was in a snare and therefore drank himself to death. However, as the successor of the perestroika form of rule with strong presidential power, he saved Russia from disintegration and division into 10 countries (the Polish Episcopate, following the Vatican’s guidelines, planned the division of Russia into dioceses and parishes after its collapse), which Colonel Słowacki made public a few years ago.
President Putin implemented his strategy of rebuilding Russia from economic and social ruins (in the late 1990s, 15 million Russian citizens died of starvation as a result of the failure to pay salaries, pensions and disability pensions in Russia – according to official statistics), he implemented step by step in the existing very difficult internal conditions (saturation with the fifth column of all circles of bureaucracy after Presidents Yeltsin and Gorbachev) and external conditions (domination at all levels of power, especially in Western countries, by NWO globalist and their satanic structures). Only the reconstruction of the Russian military, especially with the types of weapons that no one in the world has, allowed Russia, which has been patiently enduring all humiliations from the West for over thirty years, to show first its “lion’s claw” in Syria, and now, on a much larger scale, its “tiger fang” in Ukraine,
At the end of this article, we provide many links to articles about President Vladimir Putin and Russia herself published on our site over the course of 8 years. It is especially important to recall once again Albin Siwak’s talks with the Marshal of the USSR, Wiktor Kulikow, Commander-in-Chief of the Warsaw Pact Forces, incl. about who Vladimir Putin is, described in the book “Boiled Frog Syndrome” [i] and told by the author who wrote this text:
KULIKOW ON PUTIN AND THE SECRET RUSSIAN ORGANIZATION from Siwak’s book
(page 32) “… the same Zhukov also refuted the third myth. After the Second World War, the Jews proclaimed to the whole world that they would never give up power. I mean the NKVD authorities in Moscow. To this day, you can find descriptions of thanksgiving prayers in synagogues in the West. They thanked God that they had power in the USSR and would extend it to the whole world. When Zhukov shot Lavrentiy Beria at a meeting of the Political Bureau and Lazar Kaganovich lost power after Stalin’s death, and Kulikov killed two Moscow garrisons of the NKVD, the Jews of the world had a bad face… ” ;
Statement by Marshal Wiktor Kulikow to Albin Siwak (pages 40-41)“… But by the way, I will tell you that I would never go to a Jew as an adviser, and a Jew would not take me for a simple reason: I would not go, because after the death of Marshal Zhukov, I became the head of a secret organization, precisely this party “Razved”. And this organization was only established to remove Jews from all their positions and functions. That is, removing them from power and the possibility of exerting any influence on the affairs of the state and the fate of people. (…) Well, when Zhukov was carrying out this purge in the Politburo, it would not have been possible if I had not liquidated both NKVD Moscow garrisons with my own people. After all, half an hour before the time designated for the commencement of the operation, Marshal Zhukov gathered at the Ministry of Defense those commanders of the Moscow districts who had specific tasks assigned. I was ordered to liquidate these two NKVD garrisons. And the order was as follows: ~<< Everything that moves there – eliminate it. There are no Russians there. If you do not obey the order, I will have you shot. Anyway, if you do it wrong, they will kill you first. >>~ And the Jews of the world know perfectly well that I was in charge of the division whose soldiers carried out this order. To this day, it is possible to obtain figures for the liquidated two NKVD garrisons, and it is almost four thousand people. And what do you think — the marshal asked me — if Putin were a Jew, would he have accepted me as his adviser. And look at it from a different angle too. First of all, I am an officer, I became a marshal later and for the specific knowledge and trust of the highest authorities, and would I, an officer from the Zhukov school, where our honor was taught and inculcated a lot, go to the service of a Jew with my past? ~So be sure that Putin is a man of Russian roots and those who proclaim his Jewish heritage know it very well.~ But they use a very effective weapon against Putin, because we also had people who believed this nonsense or had doubts as to whether he was a Russian. I will remind you — said the marshal — that they also proclaimed your Russian lineage. We knew the Solidarity newspaper, where Mazowiecki on the front page, in capital letters, said:
[[ ]()[and] The explanation of the title is as follows: If we throw a frog into a pot of boiling water, it will get burned badly, but it will pop out of the pot, while if we slowly heat the frog slowly but surely, before it realizes it, it will cook to death. This parallel refers to the Polish nation, which is cooked step by step, step by step, and hence the dilemma of whether it will know in time, whether it will be “boiled” like a frog in a pot.]
The cited very credible, first-hand explanation about President Vladimir Putin, obtained from Albin Siwak, who is a friend of Marshal Viktor Kulikov, should suffice, as they have been quoted many times in Albin Siwak’s books and on our website. It should be added here that until his death at the age of 91 in 2013, Marshal Viktor Kulikov was a personal adviser to President Putin and Prime Minister Medvedev for many years.
This information was enough to limit various misinformation only for a few years on the Internet, because the main sewer is the mainstream media, there is no need to count on truth in every topic. But recently, the campaign to slander President Putin has grown to epic proportions due to the demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine by Russia, and above all, a firm stand against the mendacious, deceptive and criminal West ruled by satanic NWO globalists.
___ https://www.klubinteligencjipolskiej.pl/2022/04/czy-prezydent-wladimir-putin-jest-globalista-i-marionetka-chabad-lubawiczerow-dla-domoroslych-politykierow-zaplatanych-w-teorie-spiskowe-i-wlasne-miazmaty-umyslowe/
2024.05.11 16:11 kenUdigitt Novel Chapter 408
Disclaimer: I do not speak Korean. This is purely translated by machine with a lot of cleanup afterward. With that in mind, I am open to criticism to improve these translations. Enjoy!
Chapter 408
"A suicide squad."
No sooner had Jin Tae-Kyung uttered the words than Wu Hei-Xing felt a surge of anger threaten to erupt.
'Damn you, you crazy bastard!'
suicide squad.
Wasn't that the very essence of knowingly marching towards death?
Even if they managed to penetrate the vast hordes of monsters, an even greater terror, the Arch Lich, loomed beyond. The mere thought sent shivers down his spine.
'Th-this is madness.'
To Wu Hei-Xing, the potential casualties were inconsequential.
With a nation's population over a billion, what did it matter if a hundred thousand or even a million perished? They were but a drop in an immense ocean.
Yet, should that damn bastard lead the suicide squad to his own end, Wu Hei-Xing would not hesitate to applaud his demise.
However...
"Let's gather the elites and strike at the head."
That statement meant that Wu Hei-Xing himself would be included in the suicide squad. And he had no intention of risking his life in the slightest.
「Stop saying such nonsensical bullshit...」
No longer able to contain himself, Wu Hei-Xing stood abruptly.
"Oh, that's a great idea."
「...!」
Wu Hei-Xing was speechless, his shock rendering him mute.
He had not expected that man to support Jin Tae-Kyung.
But yet, Lee Jeong-Ryong was full of surprises.
「W-what did you just say?」
"I said it's a great idea."
Lee Jeong-Ryong’s smile was serene.
"This battle must be concluded swiftly. The Arch Lich is creating new undead even at this moment. If the S-rank Hunters take the lead and strike him down, the monster legion - consisting of mostly the undead - will collapse, and the casualties will be reduced."
「Uh, sir.」
"I believe you think the same way. Like the other people seated here, right? Isn't that so, Wu Hei-Xing?"
「What do you mean, other people?」
Only then did Wu Hei-Xing notice his surroundings, his gaze darting around.
Wei Feng-Hu and other senior Chinese military officials were deep in discussion, while Fei Chen and Magic Johnson engaged in their own conversations. Even Prince Felix seemed to be in agreement, nodding and exchanging words.
「Um, certainly...」
「Even if we increase our forces, the Arch Lich will do the same, so dragging this out will only increase the scale of the battle.」
「If we select A-rank Hunters and other veterans to position at the forefront, will the S-rank Hunters lead them to breakthrough...?」
「The risk is high, but it's a viable strategy.」
「No matter how powerful the Arch Lich is as a Named Monster, if the S-rank Hunters launch a joint attack, our chances of winning are sufficient.」
Wu Hei-Xing's complexion drained at these words.
'Are they insane?'
To him, their optimism towards such a perilous plan was unfathomable.
Surprisingly, even the usually reliable Lee Jeong-Ryong was backing Jin Tae-Kyung's proposal.
Driven by a fervent desire to avoid involvement in the suicide squad, Wu Hei-Xing quickly interjected.
「Wait a moment! If all the S-rank Hunters are drawn out, won't that leave a huge gap in our power?」
"Huh."
Jin Tae-Kyung regarded Wu Hei-Xing with a look of surprise.
"Wow, you do think sometimes, huh?"
「...」
"Your point is valid. Certainly, it would be good to leave a few behind."
That damned bangzi bastard.
Yet now was not the time for Wu Hei-Xing to let anger take over. He calmed himself and pressed on.
「Right, that's why I should stay back in case of any emergencies...」
Jin Tae-Kyung cut him off mid-sentence and turned to Magic Johnson.
"I think you should stay. What do you think, Johnson?"
「Um, me?」
What kind of situation is this? Wu Hei-Xing desperately interjected.
「Magic Johnson? Wouldn't it be better if at least one mage went with you?」
"Of course, that would be good. But..."
Jin Tae-Kyung smiled amiably at Wu Hei-Xing and added.
"What about the rear then?"
「Huh?」
"What will you do if the Arch Lich teleports behind our lines? Are you going to stop him?"
「...」
“No matter how powerful the Arch Lich is, if a Grand Mage remains to disrupt his magic, he won’t be able to carry out such deeds. And Magic Johnson’s wide-ranging magic could turn the tide of the battle.”
This point was irrefutable. Jin Tae-Kyung clicked his tongue, noticing Wu Hei-Xing's sudden silence.
“Come on, think before you speak. Years of watching adult content must have at least taught you to be mindful of your surroundings - specifically behind your back. Now's the time to use that skill to think about the importance of the rearguard in a real war."
「...!」
Stunned into silence, Wu Hei-Xing watched as Jin Tae-Kyung turned his attention to Magic Johnson.
“What do you think?”
「Your point is correct, Jin. So am I staying behind alone?」
As they deliberated, Wei Feng-Hu, the Minister of National Defense, interjected.
「The Arch Lich has likely kept a number of high-level monsters in reserve for the final battle. They significantly outnumber our A-rank Hunters. We’ll need at least two more S-rank Hunters to maintain a balanced situation.」
It wasn’t over yet. Two spots were still vacant. Seizing a glimmer of hope, Wu Hei-Xing cleared his throat.
「Then, I suppose I have no choice but to stay…」
「If the others don't mind, I'd like to ask Prince Felix to stay first.」
“What?”
「I'm sorry I can't provide details, but there are complex issues involved.」
Being not just any S-rank Hunter but also a prominent British royal, third in line to the throne, Prince Felix represented more than just battlefield prowess.
The 'intricate considerations' Wei Feng-Hu referred to were undoubtedly diplomatic tensions with the UK.
“Well, his father is the King of England... Then, let the Prince stay behind.”
Prince Felix, clearly uneasy, added his own thoughts.
「I hope you understand this is not my choice. Being born into the royal family, I cannot defy a command from my father…」
“That’s fine. I’m not bothered. It’s actually better for me this way. I'd be embarassed if something were to happen to the fourth in line to the British throne in the plan I proposed.”
「I'm third! And show some respect when you talk to me.」
“Ah, yes. Congratulations on your bronze medal. Then, does anyone object if His Royal Highness Prince Felix, the embodiment of daddy issues, uses his connections to step aside?”
Wu Hei-Xing was about to voice his concern when he paused, hearing the consensus from Fei Chen and Lee Jeong-Ryong.
「I don't mind.」
“I agree.”
Jin Tae-Kyung nodded and then fixed his gaze on Wu Hei-Xing.
“And you?”
「M-me?」 [Note: the sound he's making here is "na, na".]
“If you ask like that, what should I say? Choose one: Boradori, Tubi, or Po.” [Note: Nana is the Korean name for "Laa-laa" the teletubby. The others are Tinky-Winky, Dipsy, and Po, respectively.]
With Magic Johnson and Prince Felix exempted for valid reasons, and even Fei Chen and Lee Jeong-Ryong in agreement, Wu Hei-Xing found himself cornered.
Wu Hei-Xing clenched his eyes shut, then murmured.
「......Agree.」
"Answer properly. If you speak like that, how can I tell if you're reciting the Dongui Bogam or what? Are you Heo Jun?" [Note: the Dongui Bogam is a Korean medical book, and Heo Jun is its author.]
「I...agree.」
"Okay."
The decision was made swiftly. With one spot remaining, Wu Hei-Xing sensed impending doom.
His premonition soon became reality.
"The last spot is for Fei Chen. I hope you will fill it."
Wu Hei-Xing's dismay wasn't due to Jin Tae-Kyung; it was Lee Jeong-Ryong who had unexpectedly thwarted his plans.
'What on earth is that old man thinking?'
The memory of their prior agreement, now seemingly betrayed by Lee Jeong-Ryong's actions, stung sharply.
'He suggested we join forces, and now he stabs me in the back like this?'
As Wu Hei-Xing gritted his teeth, Fei Chen casually sipped her drink.
「Well, Mr. Lee. I'm not the type who enjoys danger, but wouldn't it increase our chances of success if we leave that young one instead of me?」
"No, Fei Chen. To reduce casualties, it would be more helpful if you stayed."
「Mr. Lee doesn't know that guy. When you watch him, you might even feel patriotic.」
"Don't worry. I'll watch him."
Lee Jeong-Ryong's assurance came with a calm yet firm tone that only he could muster.
The gaze of the old hero, exuding undeniable confidence, settled on another.
"And Jin Tae-Kyung. You'll be with us too?"
He had an inscrutable look.
Jin Tae-Kyung silently met Lee Jeong-Ryong’s gaze for a moment. Then he finally spoke.
"Our Vice Guild Leader. You have a knack for making obvious statements sound difficult."
"Am I to understand that you too intend to join the suicide squad?"
"Of course."
"Brave. Heroic. In that sense, I shall yield the vanguard to you."
"That’s great. Can I leave a famous quote like Louis Armstrong did? Something like, 'This is a small step for a man, but for monsters, it’s greater than reigning as the Heavenly Demon.'"
"Rough for a historical quote. And you got the name wrong. It's not Louis Armstrong, it's Neil Armstrong."
"Your bag strap is quite long. But even so, it probably can't compare to my toilet paper strap." [Note: a "bag strap" is a metaphor for the length and substance of one's education, with a longer strap indicating more time in school or studying in a higher-tier school.]
Jin Tae-Kyung's quip left the room bewildered, and Wu Hei-Xing sank into despair.
Just a month prior, he reveled at a luxurious yacht party, surrounded by a host of beauties. Now, he found himself conscripted into a suicide squad.
Then, abruptly.
-Do you think I have betrayed you?
「......!」
-Accept it. I promise there will be no danger.
Lee Jeong-Ryong's voice, carrying through the Sound Transmission, prompted Wu Hei-Xing to lift his head slowly.
Lee Jeong-Ryong's expression was gently reassuring.
"He will perform his assigned duty well. I guarantee it."
Jin Tae-Kyung, leisurely tapping the armrest of his chair, replied.
"I'm looking forward to it."
* * *
The extensive meeting finally concluded.
The newly formed suicide squad would comprise S-rank hunters, elite A-rank hunters, and experienced B-rank hunters. The command staff was now tasked with selecting these individuals.
As soon as we returned to my tent on the western front, the Skeleton Warlord declared in a grave tone.
-I will withdraw from this fight.
"Yeah, okay."
-Ask me why, you wicked human.
"Why?"
-As the commander of an undead legion, I hesitate to face my own kind.
I responded with a baffled expression.
"Bullshit. Who’s been sucking the life out of his kin for nourishment up till now?"
-……Ah.
"Be honest. Do you think I would scold you if you said that you just don't want to go because you're afraid of the Arch Lich?"
-You would.
"Bastard… Ah."
The Skeleton Warlord was becoming increasingly distrustful.
-Anyway, I no longer want to be involved in this war. Keep the promise you made that day.
"Promise?"
-Have I seen such a wicked human! In exchange for protecting two humans, didn’t you promise to grant whatever favor I asked?!
"Ah."
Words failed me for a moment.
I distinctly remembered making such a vow. Ordinarily, I might feign forgetfulness, but not this time. My conscience wouldn’t allow it.
"Hmm... What is your wish?"
The Skeleton Warlord bellowed, as though he had been awaiting this question.
-Grant me my freedom!
"Freedom?"
-Yes. You, vile human, have insulted and abused this commander! And you've done so no fewer than 408 times!
"…Are you by any chance from an animal rights organization?"
-Fulfill your promise, and I shall finally find my freedom!
Freedom. My mind was so cluttered with thoughts about Lee Jeong-Ryong that I hadn't considered he'd ask for something like this.
After a brief hesitation, I answered.
"Very well. I grant you your freedom."
-Oh, ohhh!
"Goodbye then."
-Huh?
Without a second thought, I extracted his skull from my inventory and hurled it outside the tent.
Into an area teeming with thousands of hunters.
Thump!
A commotion ensued, punctuated by shouts and explosive spells.
"A monster! It's a monster attack!"
"Kill it!"
Boom! Bang!
How much time had passed? Five minutes? Ten minutes?
Suddenly, the base of the tent stirred, and a skull with a glossy black sheen rolled to a stop at my feet.
"Oh, who is this?"
-…….
"Almighty Skeleton Warlord, freed at last, what brings you back to your former abusive master?"
-Human…
A faint red glow flickered in the vacant eye sockets of the skull.
Was it possible that the undead was whimpering? The Skeleton Warlord spoke again, his voice now tinged with tears.
-Can I cancel my wish?
"Oh my. Of course you can."
I continued speaking in a cheery tone, like a customer service representative.
"But you know that a wish ticket cannot be exchanged or refunded, right?"
-…….
"Come here, Golgol." [Note: this is the nickname that the MC gave to the Skeleton Warlord in chapter 382.]
With a little jump.
The Skeleton Warlord leapt helplessly into my arms. [Note: Stockholm Syndrome unlocked.]
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Chapter 408
"A suicide squad."
No sooner had Jin Tae-Kyung uttered the words than Wu Hei-Xing felt a surge of anger threaten to erupt.
'Damn you, you crazy bastard!'
suicide squad.
Wasn't that the very essence of knowingly marching towards death?
Even if they managed to penetrate the vast hordes of monsters, an even greater terror, the Arch Lich, loomed beyond. The mere thought sent shivers down his spine.
'Th-this is madness.'
To Wu Hei-Xing, the potential casualties were inconsequential.
With a nation's population over a billion, what did it matter if a hundred thousand or even a million perished? They were but a drop in an immense ocean.
Yet, should that damn bastard lead the suicide squad to his own end, Wu Hei-Xing would not hesitate to applaud his demise.
However...
"Let's gather the elites and strike at the head."
That statement meant that Wu Hei-Xing himself would be included in the suicide squad. And he had no intention of risking his life in the slightest.
「Stop saying such nonsensical bullshit...」
No longer able to contain himself, Wu Hei-Xing stood abruptly.
"Oh, that's a great idea."
「...!」
Wu Hei-Xing was speechless, his shock rendering him mute.
He had not expected that man to support Jin Tae-Kyung.
But yet, Lee Jeong-Ryong was full of surprises.
「W-what did you just say?」
"I said it's a great idea."
Lee Jeong-Ryong’s smile was serene.
"This battle must be concluded swiftly. The Arch Lich is creating new undead even at this moment. If the S-rank Hunters take the lead and strike him down, the monster legion - consisting of mostly the undead - will collapse, and the casualties will be reduced."
「Uh, sir.」
"I believe you think the same way. Like the other people seated here, right? Isn't that so, Wu Hei-Xing?"
「What do you mean, other people?」
Only then did Wu Hei-Xing notice his surroundings, his gaze darting around.
Wei Feng-Hu and other senior Chinese military officials were deep in discussion, while Fei Chen and Magic Johnson engaged in their own conversations. Even Prince Felix seemed to be in agreement, nodding and exchanging words.
「Um, certainly...」
「Even if we increase our forces, the Arch Lich will do the same, so dragging this out will only increase the scale of the battle.」
「If we select A-rank Hunters and other veterans to position at the forefront, will the S-rank Hunters lead them to breakthrough...?」
「The risk is high, but it's a viable strategy.」
「No matter how powerful the Arch Lich is as a Named Monster, if the S-rank Hunters launch a joint attack, our chances of winning are sufficient.」
Wu Hei-Xing's complexion drained at these words.
'Are they insane?'
To him, their optimism towards such a perilous plan was unfathomable.
Surprisingly, even the usually reliable Lee Jeong-Ryong was backing Jin Tae-Kyung's proposal.
Driven by a fervent desire to avoid involvement in the suicide squad, Wu Hei-Xing quickly interjected.
「Wait a moment! If all the S-rank Hunters are drawn out, won't that leave a huge gap in our power?」
"Huh."
Jin Tae-Kyung regarded Wu Hei-Xing with a look of surprise.
"Wow, you do think sometimes, huh?"
「...」
"Your point is valid. Certainly, it would be good to leave a few behind."
That damned bangzi bastard.
Yet now was not the time for Wu Hei-Xing to let anger take over. He calmed himself and pressed on.
「Right, that's why I should stay back in case of any emergencies...」
Jin Tae-Kyung cut him off mid-sentence and turned to Magic Johnson.
"I think you should stay. What do you think, Johnson?"
「Um, me?」
What kind of situation is this? Wu Hei-Xing desperately interjected.
「Magic Johnson? Wouldn't it be better if at least one mage went with you?」
"Of course, that would be good. But..."
Jin Tae-Kyung smiled amiably at Wu Hei-Xing and added.
"What about the rear then?"
「Huh?」
"What will you do if the Arch Lich teleports behind our lines? Are you going to stop him?"
「...」
“No matter how powerful the Arch Lich is, if a Grand Mage remains to disrupt his magic, he won’t be able to carry out such deeds. And Magic Johnson’s wide-ranging magic could turn the tide of the battle.”
This point was irrefutable. Jin Tae-Kyung clicked his tongue, noticing Wu Hei-Xing's sudden silence.
“Come on, think before you speak. Years of watching adult content must have at least taught you to be mindful of your surroundings - specifically behind your back. Now's the time to use that skill to think about the importance of the rearguard in a real war."
「...!」
Stunned into silence, Wu Hei-Xing watched as Jin Tae-Kyung turned his attention to Magic Johnson.
“What do you think?”
「Your point is correct, Jin. So am I staying behind alone?」
As they deliberated, Wei Feng-Hu, the Minister of National Defense, interjected.
「The Arch Lich has likely kept a number of high-level monsters in reserve for the final battle. They significantly outnumber our A-rank Hunters. We’ll need at least two more S-rank Hunters to maintain a balanced situation.」
It wasn’t over yet. Two spots were still vacant. Seizing a glimmer of hope, Wu Hei-Xing cleared his throat.
「Then, I suppose I have no choice but to stay…」
「If the others don't mind, I'd like to ask Prince Felix to stay first.」
“What?”
「I'm sorry I can't provide details, but there are complex issues involved.」
Being not just any S-rank Hunter but also a prominent British royal, third in line to the throne, Prince Felix represented more than just battlefield prowess.
The 'intricate considerations' Wei Feng-Hu referred to were undoubtedly diplomatic tensions with the UK.
“Well, his father is the King of England... Then, let the Prince stay behind.”
Prince Felix, clearly uneasy, added his own thoughts.
「I hope you understand this is not my choice. Being born into the royal family, I cannot defy a command from my father…」
“That’s fine. I’m not bothered. It’s actually better for me this way. I'd be embarassed if something were to happen to the fourth in line to the British throne in the plan I proposed.”
「I'm third! And show some respect when you talk to me.」
“Ah, yes. Congratulations on your bronze medal. Then, does anyone object if His Royal Highness Prince Felix, the embodiment of daddy issues, uses his connections to step aside?”
Wu Hei-Xing was about to voice his concern when he paused, hearing the consensus from Fei Chen and Lee Jeong-Ryong.
「I don't mind.」
“I agree.”
Jin Tae-Kyung nodded and then fixed his gaze on Wu Hei-Xing.
“And you?”
「M-me?」 [Note: the sound he's making here is "na, na".]
“If you ask like that, what should I say? Choose one: Boradori, Tubi, or Po.” [Note: Nana is the Korean name for "Laa-laa" the teletubby. The others are Tinky-Winky, Dipsy, and Po, respectively.]
With Magic Johnson and Prince Felix exempted for valid reasons, and even Fei Chen and Lee Jeong-Ryong in agreement, Wu Hei-Xing found himself cornered.
Wu Hei-Xing clenched his eyes shut, then murmured.
「......Agree.」
"Answer properly. If you speak like that, how can I tell if you're reciting the Dongui Bogam or what? Are you Heo Jun?" [Note: the Dongui Bogam is a Korean medical book, and Heo Jun is its author.]
「I...agree.」
"Okay."
The decision was made swiftly. With one spot remaining, Wu Hei-Xing sensed impending doom.
His premonition soon became reality.
"The last spot is for Fei Chen. I hope you will fill it."
Wu Hei-Xing's dismay wasn't due to Jin Tae-Kyung; it was Lee Jeong-Ryong who had unexpectedly thwarted his plans.
'What on earth is that old man thinking?'
The memory of their prior agreement, now seemingly betrayed by Lee Jeong-Ryong's actions, stung sharply.
'He suggested we join forces, and now he stabs me in the back like this?'
As Wu Hei-Xing gritted his teeth, Fei Chen casually sipped her drink.
「Well, Mr. Lee. I'm not the type who enjoys danger, but wouldn't it increase our chances of success if we leave that young one instead of me?」
"No, Fei Chen. To reduce casualties, it would be more helpful if you stayed."
「Mr. Lee doesn't know that guy. When you watch him, you might even feel patriotic.」
"Don't worry. I'll watch him."
Lee Jeong-Ryong's assurance came with a calm yet firm tone that only he could muster.
The gaze of the old hero, exuding undeniable confidence, settled on another.
"And Jin Tae-Kyung. You'll be with us too?"
He had an inscrutable look.
Jin Tae-Kyung silently met Lee Jeong-Ryong’s gaze for a moment. Then he finally spoke.
"Our Vice Guild Leader. You have a knack for making obvious statements sound difficult."
"Am I to understand that you too intend to join the suicide squad?"
"Of course."
"Brave. Heroic. In that sense, I shall yield the vanguard to you."
"That’s great. Can I leave a famous quote like Louis Armstrong did? Something like, 'This is a small step for a man, but for monsters, it’s greater than reigning as the Heavenly Demon.'"
"Rough for a historical quote. And you got the name wrong. It's not Louis Armstrong, it's Neil Armstrong."
"Your bag strap is quite long. But even so, it probably can't compare to my toilet paper strap." [Note: a "bag strap" is a metaphor for the length and substance of one's education, with a longer strap indicating more time in school or studying in a higher-tier school.]
Jin Tae-Kyung's quip left the room bewildered, and Wu Hei-Xing sank into despair.
Just a month prior, he reveled at a luxurious yacht party, surrounded by a host of beauties. Now, he found himself conscripted into a suicide squad.
Then, abruptly.
-Do you think I have betrayed you?
「......!」
-Accept it. I promise there will be no danger.
Lee Jeong-Ryong's voice, carrying through the Sound Transmission, prompted Wu Hei-Xing to lift his head slowly.
Lee Jeong-Ryong's expression was gently reassuring.
"He will perform his assigned duty well. I guarantee it."
Jin Tae-Kyung, leisurely tapping the armrest of his chair, replied.
"I'm looking forward to it."
* * *
The extensive meeting finally concluded.
The newly formed suicide squad would comprise S-rank hunters, elite A-rank hunters, and experienced B-rank hunters. The command staff was now tasked with selecting these individuals.
As soon as we returned to my tent on the western front, the Skeleton Warlord declared in a grave tone.
-I will withdraw from this fight.
"Yeah, okay."
-Ask me why, you wicked human.
"Why?"
-As the commander of an undead legion, I hesitate to face my own kind.
I responded with a baffled expression.
"Bullshit. Who’s been sucking the life out of his kin for nourishment up till now?"
-……Ah.
"Be honest. Do you think I would scold you if you said that you just don't want to go because you're afraid of the Arch Lich?"
-You would.
"Bastard… Ah."
The Skeleton Warlord was becoming increasingly distrustful.
-Anyway, I no longer want to be involved in this war. Keep the promise you made that day.
"Promise?"
-Have I seen such a wicked human! In exchange for protecting two humans, didn’t you promise to grant whatever favor I asked?!
"Ah."
Words failed me for a moment.
I distinctly remembered making such a vow. Ordinarily, I might feign forgetfulness, but not this time. My conscience wouldn’t allow it.
"Hmm... What is your wish?"
The Skeleton Warlord bellowed, as though he had been awaiting this question.
-Grant me my freedom!
"Freedom?"
-Yes. You, vile human, have insulted and abused this commander! And you've done so no fewer than 408 times!
"…Are you by any chance from an animal rights organization?"
-Fulfill your promise, and I shall finally find my freedom!
Freedom. My mind was so cluttered with thoughts about Lee Jeong-Ryong that I hadn't considered he'd ask for something like this.
After a brief hesitation, I answered.
"Very well. I grant you your freedom."
-Oh, ohhh!
"Goodbye then."
-Huh?
Without a second thought, I extracted his skull from my inventory and hurled it outside the tent.
Into an area teeming with thousands of hunters.
Thump!
A commotion ensued, punctuated by shouts and explosive spells.
"A monster! It's a monster attack!"
"Kill it!"
Boom! Bang!
How much time had passed? Five minutes? Ten minutes?
Suddenly, the base of the tent stirred, and a skull with a glossy black sheen rolled to a stop at my feet.
"Oh, who is this?"
-…….
"Almighty Skeleton Warlord, freed at last, what brings you back to your former abusive master?"
-Human…
A faint red glow flickered in the vacant eye sockets of the skull.
Was it possible that the undead was whimpering? The Skeleton Warlord spoke again, his voice now tinged with tears.
-Can I cancel my wish?
"Oh my. Of course you can."
I continued speaking in a cheery tone, like a customer service representative.
"But you know that a wish ticket cannot be exchanged or refunded, right?"
-…….
"Come here, Golgol." [Note: this is the nickname that the MC gave to the Skeleton Warlord in chapter 382.]
With a little jump.
The Skeleton Warlord leapt helplessly into my arms. [Note: Stockholm Syndrome unlocked.]
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2024.05.11 15:49 Chillerbride The narcissist mask slip?
Lately TF has been out of control. Which makes me think she’s been a long term narcissist and in the past felt the need to cover it to be a good girl and sell albums. Now however, she realized that people love her for who she truly is - an AntiHero, and she’s able to enable the self-victimizing Karen’s to be their true selves, so she doesn’t even try to hide how narcissistic and greedy she is anymore.
SHE CANT PUT THE MASK BACK ON!!!
Give her a few years she’d prob have a child via a surrogate on her own (quoting medical issues and fear of pregnancy, and tells the public nobody should control what a woman does with her own body even if it means using a poorer woman’s body) and then be the type of mother like Joan Crawford in Mommy Dearest, just from her untreated distrust of family and need to take advantage of people around her, her being threatened by the new generation and perpetual need to stay in the spot light, and her tendency to be abusive.
Edit - ok I didn’t know Matty didn’t say the racist stuff and since there’s multiple articles about it I believe it. Actually makes me feel better about Matty. Which makes it even less sensible to blame fans for the breakup instead of just clarifying things about him to the public. Or again, but a country/island and move there without public criticism considering she’s a billionaire
submitted by Chillerbride to travisandtaylor [link] [comments]
SHE CANT PUT THE MASK BACK ON!!!
Give her a few years she’d prob have a child via a surrogate on her own (quoting medical issues and fear of pregnancy, and tells the public nobody should control what a woman does with her own body even if it means using a poorer woman’s body) and then be the type of mother like Joan Crawford in Mommy Dearest, just from her untreated distrust of family and need to take advantage of people around her, her being threatened by the new generation and perpetual need to stay in the spot light, and her tendency to be abusive.
- She robbed a teenager Olivia Rodrigo by getting a huge cut from her most popular songs, which assume she did by threatening legal action. Legal action from TS would’ve been damaging and financially costly for Olivia Rodrigo, so even though the law was on the Rodrigo side as the songs were nothing alike, she caved in. Olivia mentioned in her song The Grudge that a call betrayed all her trust and shattered her world, and “you have everything and you still want more.” TS then proceeds to invite Rodrigo’s enemy Sabrina Carpenter on stage on opening night of Rodrigo’s concert and mess with Rodrigo in a billion little ways. She then wrote iwannagetyouback copying Rodrigo’s “get him back!” as a second fuck you to Rodrigo. This is what I would expect from a cartoon villain.
- She for some reason stole food from a middle class black family in the Anti-Hero music video. Just watch that video and tell me if she is a narc or not. Who with a healthy mindset would write a song about their useless children fighting over inheritance and being killed by her daughter in law? Do you know any other singer in their right mind that writes a song humiliating nuclear family members that’s not even born yet?
- TS only advocates for TS. She for some reason did not speak out for Joe, or the women associated with Joe via work, about being attacked by her insane fans. This is all after cucking her bfs and admitting to cheating many many times.
- Blaming her fans for not being able to be with a racist guy who did the nazi salute. I’m sorry you’re a billionaire!!! You can go off to an island with him for the rest of your life and nobody would find you. This is not Romeo and Juliet. I can’t be with the boy of my dreams because my woke fans that’s made me a billionaire don’t support it so let me mock you at my concert? What? What’s stopping you from living your best life besides you want MORE MONEY, want to sell more cheap quality over priced merchandise, and concert tickets?
- She sued a college student for tracking her extremely wasteful jet usage which is also public data. Not to mention her lawyer was trash and that demand letter was embarrassing.
Edit - ok I didn’t know Matty didn’t say the racist stuff and since there’s multiple articles about it I believe it. Actually makes me feel better about Matty. Which makes it even less sensible to blame fans for the breakup instead of just clarifying things about him to the public. Or again, but a country/island and move there without public criticism considering she’s a billionaire
2024.05.11 14:27 MGT1111 13 Maladaptive Defense Mechanisms Against the Healing of Destructive Emotion and Painful Experiences as an Emotional Barter Deal in Polyamory and Nonmonogamy: Projective Identification in Polyamorous and Nonmonogamous Abuse!
When a person expels an unacceptable behaviour or action, it may well be onto another person. Projective identification is used to project the bad behaviour or action into (not onto) another person so it becomes a part of that person. The person then identifies with that other person, and hence has means to control them.The person projected into may consequently be pressured to behave congruently with the projective phantasy, believing and accepting their role. The projecting person may also seek to be physically close to the person into whom the fantasy is projected. Projective identification may also be used to externalize confusing or uncertain aspects of the self so they can be studied more objectively and then re-internalized in a more acceptable form.
The concept of projective identification can be described as a type of defense mechanism or strategy employed by the unconscious mind, that allows an individual to deny or distort reality (create a fantasy) in order to maintain a socially acceptable self-image. Applied to polyamory and ENM this means that projective identification allows the polyamorist unconsciously to deny or distort the million of years proven reality of monogamy and pair bonding as one of the most deep seated hallmarks of the human species in order to maintaim a socially acceptable image despite the attept to rationalize infidelity and systemically institutionalise adultery as well as acitively abusing their spouses and mistreating them. As result, the manipulated victim begins to behave congruently with the projective phantasy, believing and accepting their role, as I have outlined above.
This takes place also or maybe especially during an interpersonal interaction in which the projector pressures the projected into thinking, feeling, and acting in accordance with the projection. In polyamory and ENM this may take place as the nonmonogamist applies pressure and manipulation on a reluctant spouse or proselytize monogamous people into polyamory
In other words, projective identification consists not only in the projection of negative aspects of oneself onto others but also in the pressure exerted on the other for him to act in a way that is congruent with what is being projected. For instance, a polyamorist or a practitioner of polyamory projects his unfaithfulness unto others believing everyone is a cheater, promiscous, und faithful anf monogamy isn't natural. Then, after rationalizing and trying institutionalizing infidelity, they procceed to proselytize others to act in the same way. The polyamorous war and crucade against monogamy, the mass shaming of monogamous people and the phenomenon of the polyamorous industroal and media complex, are all rooted and are expression of said projective identification.
Another form of projective identification happens on the relational level between two partner either by polybombing, enforcing a mono poly relationship on a monogamous spouse by exploiting her or his weaknesses or by trying to manipulate and gaslight a reluctant partner. Projective identification here is the process by which a thought or feeling is projected into the reluctant monogamous partner, then interacting with that person to make him/her experience the projected feeling. As if the other person becomes the container for affect they cannot tolerate themselves. As such and by using tactics of manipulation and gaslighting, projective identification often crosses the line into the realm of emotional abuse.
Projective identification goes also the other way aroung. It is most hazardous when the victim, the person who has been projected onto, intetnalize the content of projection, and starts to believe the agressor, namely the person who is projecting. In this case, Projective identification is when someone has been projected onto, and they internalize those qualities believing them to be truthful. This means that the judgments, negative feelings, or deficiencies that someone cannot accept themselves are then blamed onto another person, who, in turn, due to fear of loss, loneliness or abondonment, gives credence to those statements by rationalizing everything.
While there are many different types of defense mechanisms, projection and projective identification is perhaps the one that inflicts the most collateral damage. When someone is projecting, they are denying their inadequacies, failings, and other negative emotions and parts of the self and displacing them onto someone else. When the other person fell prey and internalizes evreything, the projecting person succeeded in succumbing someone into suffering and the projected on person lives nowin the word of agonizing suffering.
In polyamory this scenario plays out when a polyamorist polybombs, manipulates, gaslights, emotionally blackmails or plays on the insecurities of the reluctant spouses. Quite a seizable size and even great portion of those who engage in monogamy are spouses who were afraid to loose the partner and did not enthusiastically or realy wholeheartedly but quite reluctantly agreed to non monogamy.
In the previois article, I've elaborated on projection as a defense mechanism within the context of cluster B disorder and narcissim and abuse which pervasively overlaps with polyamory and nonmonogamy. To put it simply and ss extinuation, projective identification is a form of abuse that happens when a polyamoristand nonmongamit exhibit narcissitic tendencies, not being able to deal with their problems and past traumas, the shadow side of themselves. Instead of directly dealing with these undesirable aspects of their personality, they use you as an emotional dumping ground, exclaiming, "I don't want these feelings; you take them."
Thus, it is worth mentioning that when they treat you like you're inherently "bad," posessive, controlling, unappealling, dumb, a loser, or worthless, a well know polyamorous and nonmonogamous tactic of monogamy shaming, it's a clear evidence, they're projecting the parts of themselves they dislike onto you. It's a common tactic nonmonogamist and polyamorists share with narcissist, overt or covert. Unlike more obvious forms of abuse, projective identification as a form of mental and emotional abuse, operates on a subconscious level and has a profound impact on the recipient—the spouse or partner of a narcissistic polyamorist and nonmonogamist.
From the standpoint the psychoanalytic theory, what makes projective identification different from "simple" projection is that projective identification combines elements of both projection and introjection. The projector thrusts their emotions, thoughts, or traits onto the recipient and induces a compelling psychological influence that prompts the recipient to internalize and identify with these projected elements. Polybombing as well as polyamorous or nonmonogamous councelling sessions with a reluctant monogamous spouse, are prime examples of projection and projective identtification as a form of narcissistic abuse.
In the above example, this twofold nature turns the reluctant and monogamous partner into an unconscious collaborator in the drama, as they unknowingly internalize the projected attributes as their own. It is not just about the polyamorist and nonmonogamist projecting emotions outwardly but it also binds the reluctant paryner and the monogamous recipient in a shared emotional narrative when they internalize the abuse, blurring the lines between self and other.
Experiencing such projective identification is synonymous with enduring a profound and sustained form of gaslighting which is anothetr aspect of narcissistic abuse as applied by polyamorist and non monogamist too. The constant projection of the partners and often the poly or nonmonogamy therapist's unresolved emotions, fears, or insecurities onto you creates a distorted reality in which the experiences of the reluctant monogamous partners are systematically invalidated. The result is a pervasive sense of confusion and self-doubt, akin to living in a perpetual state of polyamorous and nonmonogamous gaslighting.
Esxperiencing such gaslighting and abuse over time, the reluctant and monogamous spouse begin to internalize the false narrative, the distorted sense of reality, doubting the authenticity of their own experiences. The insidious nature of this dynamic compounds the trauma, as you start to believe you are the one who made up your trauma. Heinz Kohut's, a psychologist, explains that individuals with narcissistic traits have fragile self-structures and struggle with a lack of mirroring and empathy during their development. Their self-esteem is fragile, so when they encounter aspects of themselves they find undesirable or threatening, they resort to projecting them outward onto others
Polyamorists and nonmonogamists use projection as a defense mechanism to be rid of parts of themselves they do not want to face. Polyamorous and nonmonogamous projective identification takes it a step further—it involves projecting and compelling the the reluctant monogamous spouse, actually the monogamous majority, to internalize and identify with these projections, both as a personal as well as collective form of abuse. The spouse and as extention everyone that is monogamous monogamous, becomes an emotional dumping ground and punching bag for the polyamorous and nonmonogamous mental issues.
Imagine a situation in which a a polyamorist and nonmonogamist uses projective identification to inject their feelings of insecurity, worthlessness, unworthiness and inadequacy onto you. In this psychological movie, you would find yourself enveloped in a swamp of insecurity, inadequacy, worthlessness and unworthiness thinking it originates from yourself rather than something your spouse have injected into you. The subtlety of this form of narcissistic poly and nonmonogamous abuse lies in its unconscious nature. As the projector, the polyamorous and nonmonogamous spouse remains oblivious to their role as the emotional scripter, and you, as the the unconcious recipient, are equally unaware of the emotional script being imposed upon you.
Instead of working on themselves through personal growth, therapy, or addressing past traumas, they hand off their emotional baggage to you. Unconsciously, they resort to different tactics, all to make you believe that their shame and self hatred are somehow your own issues. Adding to the complexity, polyamorists and nonmonogamists might unknowingly replay their own childhood traumas while living with you. It is like a subconscious replay button, where they make you feel the same way they did when they were growing up—worthless, insecure, inadequate, betrayed, abondoned, unworthy, ashamed, and in constant fear of loneliness. So, when they behave this way, they pass on their unwanted shame, urging you to carry and absorb their burdon as your emotional baggage.
Based on the theory of Ogden, one can say that projective identification as in regard to narcissism and by extention to polyamory and nonmonogamy has three steps:
a. The unconscious impulse of projecting a painful or destructive part of ones own shadow into another person and of that part taking over the person from within.
b. A conscious interpersonal interaction by means of manipulation and gaslighting brings pressure on other to think and act like the projection.
c. The reintrojection ot internalization of the projection after it is psychologically processed and then internalized by the other. This processing by the other is also an unconscious process.
The drive or the impulse of controlling the other person from within is key to projective identification, and the result takes place not merely in the mind. This is not a virtual pressure, but rather, real one exerted by means gaslighting and emotional manipulation based a multitude of interactions between the projector and the recipient. Projective identification does not exist where there is no interaction between projector and recipient. Though done intentially, the pressure itself is more overt and hidden aspect of behavior. It's message, though unstated, is "if you are not what I want you to be, you don’t exist for me"
As I also said in my article on projection, though highly developed as theories, they are all the same extremely subtle mental projections, garbed in an intricate metaphysical and philosophical phraseology about love, understading, caring and sharing. These ideas are so deep-rooted in narcissists, polyamorists and nonmonogamist, and so near and dear to them, that they do not wish to hear, nor do they want to understand, any teaching against them. In fact, they pervert the meanings of these important values to create a false narrative of their meanings. So, how does it work? Let's see.
Though projective identification is clearly an intrusion and an offence against another person, narcissists and by extention nonmonogamist and polyamorists, distort the meaning of intrusion and gaslighting and paint a cosy picture of the abuse as the most fundamental reflection of their desire to be heard and understood. In other words, through intricate mental processes of distortion, denial, delusion and self deception, the abuse turned into love and the need to be heard. Seems familiar? Of course, that's the first line of defense, domestic abuser use when battering their spouses, for instance.
Narcissists go on to abuse and pervert and very important value of human being wanted to be acknowledge of their suffering. Healthy people seek to air their feelings and their suffering to be acknowlodging. They seek support but they don't wish others to dwell in agony. Unhealthy poeple, look for others not really to perfectly understand their suffering, but they do require them to take on their suffering. Polyamorists as well as nonmonogamists do exactly that. Because it's quite clear to identify this kind of abuse and see projective identification for what it is, an aggressive form of interpersonal violence, the narcissit, the polyamorist and nonmonogamisy resort to a more covert tactic. They, again, describe this kind of abuse and paint a cosy picture of just being another way to look at it as though that it is the most primal and fundamental way of sharing an unbearable experience, and that an act of sharing may be an act of love. When, you hear, for instance, swingers and polyamorista spew the infamous "sharing is carring", those are the extremely subtle mental processes, garbed in an intricate metaphysical and philosophical phraseology about love, understading, caring and sharing, that excuse the evil.
Both projection as well as projective identification are a fundamental concepts in understanding violence and abuse. While projection is more easier to grasp, projective identification is a more covert tactic to be aggressive while appearing to be the nice or the victim. The bully seeks validation, the perverted sense of being "understood" by others, by means of making the spouse and others believe, it's them the problem, while they walk scot-free.
Moreover, projection and projective identification, are not just mere Freudian defense mechanisms, they are powerful tool for justifying aggression, violence and abuse. The narcissist, the polyamorist, the nonmonogamist, the borderline personality, and other people that have regressed to a shallow level, will project accusations like a firehose, they will use them to gaslight and emotionally manipulate the spouse to believe it's not them, the abuser being the problem but the victim itself, and the increasingly wild nature of the accusations will reflect the decay of their mental condition. The cognitive dissonance in the head is reflected by the increasingly contradictory and mutually exclusive accusations they hurl.
In other words, projective identification is a way of getting the proof of that horrible but elusive something about the other person, a way to get group (or personal false sense of) validation, praise, and attention. This quote from Wikipedia is way too technical but let's rephrase it. Projective identification is a term first used by Melanie Klein (1946) to describe a process whereby parts of the ego are thought of as forced into another person who is then expected to become identified with whatever has been projected. Understand it now or maybe not? Well, that may be way too obscure, so let's rephrase it again.The projector strives to find in the other, or to induce the other to become, the very embodiment of projection..... their behavior towards the object of projection invokes in that person precisely the thoughts, feelings or behaviors projected.
Now it is clearer - instead of just making foolish ad hominem attacks, the aggressor tries to bait a victim into giving them the proof they need so desperately to validate their own suppressed rage, anger and hatred. Then they can rally their friends or family for an attack. Bonus points are awarded for gaining sympathy and being the center of attention. The manipulator poses as a poor victim, but orchestrates the whole performance for an audience. I guess it could be used for good, but it seems like it's always a form of aggression, specifically covert aggression. Those processes are very known tactics applied by polyamorists whether they polybomb their spouse, nuke the relationshipwith nonmonogamy or engaging in monogamy shaming.
Probably the easiest way to understand this is to review projection and projective identification and and see the difference. So, how works the twofold nature ofprohection and orojective identification abuse? Here is an example:
First, cones projection:
1) A liar accuses others of lying.
2) The cheater accuses others of cheating.
3) The thief accuses others of stealing.
4) The polyamorist and nonmonogamist accuses others of bein cheaters, unthrustworthy, promiscous and sexually permissive
(Notice how the abuser is, generally, accusing everyone, yet, not accusing them of any transgression, but only the one he's obsessed with namely his own?)
And, then, follows, projective identification:
1) An angry person accuses their victim of being angry, until the victim becomes angry.
2) An depressed person accuses their victim of being depressed, until the victim becomes depressed.
3) The parent constantly accuses their child of being defiant until the child becomes defiant.
4) The person who feels crazy accuses the other of being crazy (projection of bad thoughts) with the intention of making them believe they are crazy ("gaslighting").
5) The polyamorist and nonmonogamist accuses everyone and especially their spouses of being cheaters, unthrustworthy, promiscuous and sexually permissive with the aim at proselytizing them until they succumb and convert to the polyamorous and nonmonogamous cult
(notice how the effort has shifted now to one specific victim, an individual or a collective, until they succumb and, internalize the abuse hurled at them and begin to act in the spirit of the projected incentive)
Likewise, projective identification differs from the simple projection in that projective identification can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, whereby the projector hating certain parts about their existence and nature, carring a perveted or distorted understanding of reality based on self deception carry a false narrative and an intencive to influence and coerce the recipient to carry out the precise content of the projection and its goal so that the projector now get the justification and confirmation that the unwanted parts are no more perceived as bad but legitimate, hence, now other people are having them too. In extreme cases, the recipient may lose any sense of their real essense of existence and become reduced to the passive carrier of outside projections as if possessed by them. This phenomenon has been noted as being rooted gaslighting.
Within the context of polyamory and nonmonogamy, projective identification projective identification become a self-fulfilling prophecy, when the projector hating certain parts about their existence and nature, related to our monogamous parts, monogamous relationships and past traumes telating and resulting from them, carring a distorted understanding of the monogamous reality as well as distorted view of the nonmonogamous nature and based on self deception carry a false narrative and an intencive to influence and coerce the monogamous recipients to carry out the precise content of the projection and its goal so that the projector now get the justification and confirmation that the unwanted parts are no more perceived as bad but legitimate, hence, now other people are having them too. As we have said, in these cases, the recipient loses any sense of their real essense of their existence and becomes reduced to the passive carrier of outside projections as if possessed by them. That's why polyamory and nonmonogamy are abusive and represent a form of intimate partnet violence
The very nature of this behavior is exatcly what is understood as projective identification. It reflects the fact that the assumptions made by the projector about the recipient and reality reveal the projectors unconscious impulses, drives, traits, desires and delusions, their perceptions about themselves, their inner worlds, the others, the othrr's inner world as well as the external world, especially the projector's most primal fears and destructive emotion, attitudes and traits. Because the projector is incapable to take responsibility of them, they project their inner toxicity onto the recipieny, and in doing so the recipient aims at disowning them. This pushing off of unnaceptable aspects of the projector's personality represents the lack of accountability and exibits the narcissistic attemot of blame shifting. It stands at the root of this kind of behaviour. In the projector's unconscious mind this is perceived as the benefit of of the emotional barter deal yearning to avoid suffering by means of deception or escapism, yet, in reality it only creates more suffering.
At the core of this emotional barter deal the principle, the concept or the perception of “as if”. That is, the projector engaging in this defense mechanism is basically creating baseless assumptions of no corresponding reality about the incentives and the nature of the recipient, the external world as well as reality itself. Having created a virtual picture for oneself instead of reality, the recipient, then, goes on to behave as if their assumptions are valid. In other words, the projector engaging in this kind of behaviour projects , perceptions, motives, axioms, and emotions onto the recipient and then identifies with those projected traits and hallmarks, reincorporates them, and acts accordingly. Projective identification is, therefore, a kind of closed circuit, which typically serves a self-fulfilling prophecy, as mentioned above, because it causes the recipient to drown in the projector’s closed loop. This is the stage that is interactive between projector and recipient. Though the projectors maneuvers follow a self-contained loop, they enforce it with such pathos, they draw the recipient right into becoming an active player in the movie that the projetor ha created which has now brought the recipient into the third stage.
What happens when the projector's painted picture or created movie also incorporates promiscuity, infidelity, adultery and an extramarital relationships? Can a projector coerce and manipulate with gaslighting the recipient as enacnct that triangulate which is destructive marriages and relationships? I want not to discuss a term I borrowed from Robert Mendelson that is collusive infidelity and discus it in this exact context and in relation to polyamory and nonmonogamy.
Subsequently and relating to polyamory and nonmonogamy, collusive nonmonogamous adultery or collusive nonmonogamy is a situation where either there is a reluctant partner or one partner is less interested than the other and the more willing nonmonogamous partner unconsciously coercing the other partner to engage in an adultery and a promiscuous behavior with an outsider to the marriage. Neither member of the couple is conscious of the collusion that is the coercive aspect, so that the partner who is already committing adultery or is acting in ways typical of someone who wishes to do this. That is, he or she is either already pursuing an affair, having someone on mind ready to go or just planning in general terms to do so while keeing the secrets and conflict of interest inherent in the practice.
This act requires not only skill in deception, but also denial, distortion, rationalization, compartmentalization and more. To hide an actual affair or planning to do so while encouraging the other partner to think that his or her suspicions are ridiculous or that their unwillingness to do so is a result of ther infiiority, backwardness and unopeness requires a high level of wicked lying and evil manipulation commonly acknowledged as gaslighting. Polybombing, taking a reluctant monogamous partner to poly therapist or even suggesting such a partner tries to hear out and understand the monogamous spouse are some example for such evil behaviour
Collusion, however, is more active than mere enabling which can bemore passive. Coersion by means of gaslighting and deception is the crucial aspect of collusion as I have described it above. Collusion embodies a more active role of involvement in the marital recipient's enactments. In other words, a colludeding may also mean enabling but an enabling is not necessarily colluding. Whereas an enabler simply may simply ignorethe situation trying to adjust to the situation with someone who acts out his or her addictions, the projector's enabling involves primarily conscious and unconscious behaviour, that is, he or she are active agents of coercion.
While collusion means a consciously effort on the projector's part, that is, he or she, both on the unconscious as well as on the conscious level, are planning, plotting and executing a plan, the enabling recipient being more weak or codependent simply allows the situation to happen by turning a blind eye to it or keeps quite as not to shake the boat. Similar to the cheater, a nonmonogamist acting in this way by means of projective indentification, sets a goal and achieves a moral equivalency in which his unacceptable behaviour is whitewashed and he get's the justification he's seeking. The cheater would say, "you see, you also did it, that's o.k." and the polyamorist or nonmonogamist would proclaim, "you see, you did it, it was you being unreasonable". Clear tactics of gaslighting.
submitted by MGT1111 to InDefenseOfMonogamy [link] [comments]
The concept of projective identification can be described as a type of defense mechanism or strategy employed by the unconscious mind, that allows an individual to deny or distort reality (create a fantasy) in order to maintain a socially acceptable self-image. Applied to polyamory and ENM this means that projective identification allows the polyamorist unconsciously to deny or distort the million of years proven reality of monogamy and pair bonding as one of the most deep seated hallmarks of the human species in order to maintaim a socially acceptable image despite the attept to rationalize infidelity and systemically institutionalise adultery as well as acitively abusing their spouses and mistreating them. As result, the manipulated victim begins to behave congruently with the projective phantasy, believing and accepting their role, as I have outlined above.
This takes place also or maybe especially during an interpersonal interaction in which the projector pressures the projected into thinking, feeling, and acting in accordance with the projection. In polyamory and ENM this may take place as the nonmonogamist applies pressure and manipulation on a reluctant spouse or proselytize monogamous people into polyamory
In other words, projective identification consists not only in the projection of negative aspects of oneself onto others but also in the pressure exerted on the other for him to act in a way that is congruent with what is being projected. For instance, a polyamorist or a practitioner of polyamory projects his unfaithfulness unto others believing everyone is a cheater, promiscous, und faithful anf monogamy isn't natural. Then, after rationalizing and trying institutionalizing infidelity, they procceed to proselytize others to act in the same way. The polyamorous war and crucade against monogamy, the mass shaming of monogamous people and the phenomenon of the polyamorous industroal and media complex, are all rooted and are expression of said projective identification.
Another form of projective identification happens on the relational level between two partner either by polybombing, enforcing a mono poly relationship on a monogamous spouse by exploiting her or his weaknesses or by trying to manipulate and gaslight a reluctant partner. Projective identification here is the process by which a thought or feeling is projected into the reluctant monogamous partner, then interacting with that person to make him/her experience the projected feeling. As if the other person becomes the container for affect they cannot tolerate themselves. As such and by using tactics of manipulation and gaslighting, projective identification often crosses the line into the realm of emotional abuse.
Projective identification goes also the other way aroung. It is most hazardous when the victim, the person who has been projected onto, intetnalize the content of projection, and starts to believe the agressor, namely the person who is projecting. In this case, Projective identification is when someone has been projected onto, and they internalize those qualities believing them to be truthful. This means that the judgments, negative feelings, or deficiencies that someone cannot accept themselves are then blamed onto another person, who, in turn, due to fear of loss, loneliness or abondonment, gives credence to those statements by rationalizing everything.
While there are many different types of defense mechanisms, projection and projective identification is perhaps the one that inflicts the most collateral damage. When someone is projecting, they are denying their inadequacies, failings, and other negative emotions and parts of the self and displacing them onto someone else. When the other person fell prey and internalizes evreything, the projecting person succeeded in succumbing someone into suffering and the projected on person lives nowin the word of agonizing suffering.
In polyamory this scenario plays out when a polyamorist polybombs, manipulates, gaslights, emotionally blackmails or plays on the insecurities of the reluctant spouses. Quite a seizable size and even great portion of those who engage in monogamy are spouses who were afraid to loose the partner and did not enthusiastically or realy wholeheartedly but quite reluctantly agreed to non monogamy.
In the previois article, I've elaborated on projection as a defense mechanism within the context of cluster B disorder and narcissim and abuse which pervasively overlaps with polyamory and nonmonogamy. To put it simply and ss extinuation, projective identification is a form of abuse that happens when a polyamoristand nonmongamit exhibit narcissitic tendencies, not being able to deal with their problems and past traumas, the shadow side of themselves. Instead of directly dealing with these undesirable aspects of their personality, they use you as an emotional dumping ground, exclaiming, "I don't want these feelings; you take them."
Thus, it is worth mentioning that when they treat you like you're inherently "bad," posessive, controlling, unappealling, dumb, a loser, or worthless, a well know polyamorous and nonmonogamous tactic of monogamy shaming, it's a clear evidence, they're projecting the parts of themselves they dislike onto you. It's a common tactic nonmonogamist and polyamorists share with narcissist, overt or covert. Unlike more obvious forms of abuse, projective identification as a form of mental and emotional abuse, operates on a subconscious level and has a profound impact on the recipient—the spouse or partner of a narcissistic polyamorist and nonmonogamist.
From the standpoint the psychoanalytic theory, what makes projective identification different from "simple" projection is that projective identification combines elements of both projection and introjection. The projector thrusts their emotions, thoughts, or traits onto the recipient and induces a compelling psychological influence that prompts the recipient to internalize and identify with these projected elements. Polybombing as well as polyamorous or nonmonogamous councelling sessions with a reluctant monogamous spouse, are prime examples of projection and projective identtification as a form of narcissistic abuse.
In the above example, this twofold nature turns the reluctant and monogamous partner into an unconscious collaborator in the drama, as they unknowingly internalize the projected attributes as their own. It is not just about the polyamorist and nonmonogamist projecting emotions outwardly but it also binds the reluctant paryner and the monogamous recipient in a shared emotional narrative when they internalize the abuse, blurring the lines between self and other.
Experiencing such projective identification is synonymous with enduring a profound and sustained form of gaslighting which is anothetr aspect of narcissistic abuse as applied by polyamorist and non monogamist too. The constant projection of the partners and often the poly or nonmonogamy therapist's unresolved emotions, fears, or insecurities onto you creates a distorted reality in which the experiences of the reluctant monogamous partners are systematically invalidated. The result is a pervasive sense of confusion and self-doubt, akin to living in a perpetual state of polyamorous and nonmonogamous gaslighting.
Esxperiencing such gaslighting and abuse over time, the reluctant and monogamous spouse begin to internalize the false narrative, the distorted sense of reality, doubting the authenticity of their own experiences. The insidious nature of this dynamic compounds the trauma, as you start to believe you are the one who made up your trauma. Heinz Kohut's, a psychologist, explains that individuals with narcissistic traits have fragile self-structures and struggle with a lack of mirroring and empathy during their development. Their self-esteem is fragile, so when they encounter aspects of themselves they find undesirable or threatening, they resort to projecting them outward onto others
Polyamorists and nonmonogamists use projection as a defense mechanism to be rid of parts of themselves they do not want to face. Polyamorous and nonmonogamous projective identification takes it a step further—it involves projecting and compelling the the reluctant monogamous spouse, actually the monogamous majority, to internalize and identify with these projections, both as a personal as well as collective form of abuse. The spouse and as extention everyone that is monogamous monogamous, becomes an emotional dumping ground and punching bag for the polyamorous and nonmonogamous mental issues.
Imagine a situation in which a a polyamorist and nonmonogamist uses projective identification to inject their feelings of insecurity, worthlessness, unworthiness and inadequacy onto you. In this psychological movie, you would find yourself enveloped in a swamp of insecurity, inadequacy, worthlessness and unworthiness thinking it originates from yourself rather than something your spouse have injected into you. The subtlety of this form of narcissistic poly and nonmonogamous abuse lies in its unconscious nature. As the projector, the polyamorous and nonmonogamous spouse remains oblivious to their role as the emotional scripter, and you, as the the unconcious recipient, are equally unaware of the emotional script being imposed upon you.
Instead of working on themselves through personal growth, therapy, or addressing past traumas, they hand off their emotional baggage to you. Unconsciously, they resort to different tactics, all to make you believe that their shame and self hatred are somehow your own issues. Adding to the complexity, polyamorists and nonmonogamists might unknowingly replay their own childhood traumas while living with you. It is like a subconscious replay button, where they make you feel the same way they did when they were growing up—worthless, insecure, inadequate, betrayed, abondoned, unworthy, ashamed, and in constant fear of loneliness. So, when they behave this way, they pass on their unwanted shame, urging you to carry and absorb their burdon as your emotional baggage.
Based on the theory of Ogden, one can say that projective identification as in regard to narcissism and by extention to polyamory and nonmonogamy has three steps:
a. The unconscious impulse of projecting a painful or destructive part of ones own shadow into another person and of that part taking over the person from within.
b. A conscious interpersonal interaction by means of manipulation and gaslighting brings pressure on other to think and act like the projection.
c. The reintrojection ot internalization of the projection after it is psychologically processed and then internalized by the other. This processing by the other is also an unconscious process.
The drive or the impulse of controlling the other person from within is key to projective identification, and the result takes place not merely in the mind. This is not a virtual pressure, but rather, real one exerted by means gaslighting and emotional manipulation based a multitude of interactions between the projector and the recipient. Projective identification does not exist where there is no interaction between projector and recipient. Though done intentially, the pressure itself is more overt and hidden aspect of behavior. It's message, though unstated, is "if you are not what I want you to be, you don’t exist for me"
As I also said in my article on projection, though highly developed as theories, they are all the same extremely subtle mental projections, garbed in an intricate metaphysical and philosophical phraseology about love, understading, caring and sharing. These ideas are so deep-rooted in narcissists, polyamorists and nonmonogamist, and so near and dear to them, that they do not wish to hear, nor do they want to understand, any teaching against them. In fact, they pervert the meanings of these important values to create a false narrative of their meanings. So, how does it work? Let's see.
Though projective identification is clearly an intrusion and an offence against another person, narcissists and by extention nonmonogamist and polyamorists, distort the meaning of intrusion and gaslighting and paint a cosy picture of the abuse as the most fundamental reflection of their desire to be heard and understood. In other words, through intricate mental processes of distortion, denial, delusion and self deception, the abuse turned into love and the need to be heard. Seems familiar? Of course, that's the first line of defense, domestic abuser use when battering their spouses, for instance.
Narcissists go on to abuse and pervert and very important value of human being wanted to be acknowledge of their suffering. Healthy people seek to air their feelings and their suffering to be acknowlodging. They seek support but they don't wish others to dwell in agony. Unhealthy poeple, look for others not really to perfectly understand their suffering, but they do require them to take on their suffering. Polyamorists as well as nonmonogamists do exactly that. Because it's quite clear to identify this kind of abuse and see projective identification for what it is, an aggressive form of interpersonal violence, the narcissit, the polyamorist and nonmonogamisy resort to a more covert tactic. They, again, describe this kind of abuse and paint a cosy picture of just being another way to look at it as though that it is the most primal and fundamental way of sharing an unbearable experience, and that an act of sharing may be an act of love. When, you hear, for instance, swingers and polyamorista spew the infamous "sharing is carring", those are the extremely subtle mental processes, garbed in an intricate metaphysical and philosophical phraseology about love, understading, caring and sharing, that excuse the evil.
Both projection as well as projective identification are a fundamental concepts in understanding violence and abuse. While projection is more easier to grasp, projective identification is a more covert tactic to be aggressive while appearing to be the nice or the victim. The bully seeks validation, the perverted sense of being "understood" by others, by means of making the spouse and others believe, it's them the problem, while they walk scot-free.
Moreover, projection and projective identification, are not just mere Freudian defense mechanisms, they are powerful tool for justifying aggression, violence and abuse. The narcissist, the polyamorist, the nonmonogamist, the borderline personality, and other people that have regressed to a shallow level, will project accusations like a firehose, they will use them to gaslight and emotionally manipulate the spouse to believe it's not them, the abuser being the problem but the victim itself, and the increasingly wild nature of the accusations will reflect the decay of their mental condition. The cognitive dissonance in the head is reflected by the increasingly contradictory and mutually exclusive accusations they hurl.
In other words, projective identification is a way of getting the proof of that horrible but elusive something about the other person, a way to get group (or personal false sense of) validation, praise, and attention. This quote from Wikipedia is way too technical but let's rephrase it. Projective identification is a term first used by Melanie Klein (1946) to describe a process whereby parts of the ego are thought of as forced into another person who is then expected to become identified with whatever has been projected. Understand it now or maybe not? Well, that may be way too obscure, so let's rephrase it again.The projector strives to find in the other, or to induce the other to become, the very embodiment of projection..... their behavior towards the object of projection invokes in that person precisely the thoughts, feelings or behaviors projected.
Now it is clearer - instead of just making foolish ad hominem attacks, the aggressor tries to bait a victim into giving them the proof they need so desperately to validate their own suppressed rage, anger and hatred. Then they can rally their friends or family for an attack. Bonus points are awarded for gaining sympathy and being the center of attention. The manipulator poses as a poor victim, but orchestrates the whole performance for an audience. I guess it could be used for good, but it seems like it's always a form of aggression, specifically covert aggression. Those processes are very known tactics applied by polyamorists whether they polybomb their spouse, nuke the relationshipwith nonmonogamy or engaging in monogamy shaming.
Probably the easiest way to understand this is to review projection and projective identification and and see the difference. So, how works the twofold nature ofprohection and orojective identification abuse? Here is an example:
First, cones projection:
1) A liar accuses others of lying.
2) The cheater accuses others of cheating.
3) The thief accuses others of stealing.
4) The polyamorist and nonmonogamist accuses others of bein cheaters, unthrustworthy, promiscous and sexually permissive
(Notice how the abuser is, generally, accusing everyone, yet, not accusing them of any transgression, but only the one he's obsessed with namely his own?)
And, then, follows, projective identification:
1) An angry person accuses their victim of being angry, until the victim becomes angry.
2) An depressed person accuses their victim of being depressed, until the victim becomes depressed.
3) The parent constantly accuses their child of being defiant until the child becomes defiant.
4) The person who feels crazy accuses the other of being crazy (projection of bad thoughts) with the intention of making them believe they are crazy ("gaslighting").
5) The polyamorist and nonmonogamist accuses everyone and especially their spouses of being cheaters, unthrustworthy, promiscuous and sexually permissive with the aim at proselytizing them until they succumb and convert to the polyamorous and nonmonogamous cult
(notice how the effort has shifted now to one specific victim, an individual or a collective, until they succumb and, internalize the abuse hurled at them and begin to act in the spirit of the projected incentive)
Likewise, projective identification differs from the simple projection in that projective identification can become a self-fulfilling prophecy, whereby the projector hating certain parts about their existence and nature, carring a perveted or distorted understanding of reality based on self deception carry a false narrative and an intencive to influence and coerce the recipient to carry out the precise content of the projection and its goal so that the projector now get the justification and confirmation that the unwanted parts are no more perceived as bad but legitimate, hence, now other people are having them too. In extreme cases, the recipient may lose any sense of their real essense of existence and become reduced to the passive carrier of outside projections as if possessed by them. This phenomenon has been noted as being rooted gaslighting.
Within the context of polyamory and nonmonogamy, projective identification projective identification become a self-fulfilling prophecy, when the projector hating certain parts about their existence and nature, related to our monogamous parts, monogamous relationships and past traumes telating and resulting from them, carring a distorted understanding of the monogamous reality as well as distorted view of the nonmonogamous nature and based on self deception carry a false narrative and an intencive to influence and coerce the monogamous recipients to carry out the precise content of the projection and its goal so that the projector now get the justification and confirmation that the unwanted parts are no more perceived as bad but legitimate, hence, now other people are having them too. As we have said, in these cases, the recipient loses any sense of their real essense of their existence and becomes reduced to the passive carrier of outside projections as if possessed by them. That's why polyamory and nonmonogamy are abusive and represent a form of intimate partnet violence
The very nature of this behavior is exatcly what is understood as projective identification. It reflects the fact that the assumptions made by the projector about the recipient and reality reveal the projectors unconscious impulses, drives, traits, desires and delusions, their perceptions about themselves, their inner worlds, the others, the othrr's inner world as well as the external world, especially the projector's most primal fears and destructive emotion, attitudes and traits. Because the projector is incapable to take responsibility of them, they project their inner toxicity onto the recipieny, and in doing so the recipient aims at disowning them. This pushing off of unnaceptable aspects of the projector's personality represents the lack of accountability and exibits the narcissistic attemot of blame shifting. It stands at the root of this kind of behaviour. In the projector's unconscious mind this is perceived as the benefit of of the emotional barter deal yearning to avoid suffering by means of deception or escapism, yet, in reality it only creates more suffering.
At the core of this emotional barter deal the principle, the concept or the perception of “as if”. That is, the projector engaging in this defense mechanism is basically creating baseless assumptions of no corresponding reality about the incentives and the nature of the recipient, the external world as well as reality itself. Having created a virtual picture for oneself instead of reality, the recipient, then, goes on to behave as if their assumptions are valid. In other words, the projector engaging in this kind of behaviour projects , perceptions, motives, axioms, and emotions onto the recipient and then identifies with those projected traits and hallmarks, reincorporates them, and acts accordingly. Projective identification is, therefore, a kind of closed circuit, which typically serves a self-fulfilling prophecy, as mentioned above, because it causes the recipient to drown in the projector’s closed loop. This is the stage that is interactive between projector and recipient. Though the projectors maneuvers follow a self-contained loop, they enforce it with such pathos, they draw the recipient right into becoming an active player in the movie that the projetor ha created which has now brought the recipient into the third stage.
What happens when the projector's painted picture or created movie also incorporates promiscuity, infidelity, adultery and an extramarital relationships? Can a projector coerce and manipulate with gaslighting the recipient as enacnct that triangulate which is destructive marriages and relationships? I want not to discuss a term I borrowed from Robert Mendelson that is collusive infidelity and discus it in this exact context and in relation to polyamory and nonmonogamy.
Subsequently and relating to polyamory and nonmonogamy, collusive nonmonogamous adultery or collusive nonmonogamy is a situation where either there is a reluctant partner or one partner is less interested than the other and the more willing nonmonogamous partner unconsciously coercing the other partner to engage in an adultery and a promiscuous behavior with an outsider to the marriage. Neither member of the couple is conscious of the collusion that is the coercive aspect, so that the partner who is already committing adultery or is acting in ways typical of someone who wishes to do this. That is, he or she is either already pursuing an affair, having someone on mind ready to go or just planning in general terms to do so while keeing the secrets and conflict of interest inherent in the practice.
This act requires not only skill in deception, but also denial, distortion, rationalization, compartmentalization and more. To hide an actual affair or planning to do so while encouraging the other partner to think that his or her suspicions are ridiculous or that their unwillingness to do so is a result of ther infiiority, backwardness and unopeness requires a high level of wicked lying and evil manipulation commonly acknowledged as gaslighting. Polybombing, taking a reluctant monogamous partner to poly therapist or even suggesting such a partner tries to hear out and understand the monogamous spouse are some example for such evil behaviour
Collusion, however, is more active than mere enabling which can bemore passive. Coersion by means of gaslighting and deception is the crucial aspect of collusion as I have described it above. Collusion embodies a more active role of involvement in the marital recipient's enactments. In other words, a colludeding may also mean enabling but an enabling is not necessarily colluding. Whereas an enabler simply may simply ignorethe situation trying to adjust to the situation with someone who acts out his or her addictions, the projector's enabling involves primarily conscious and unconscious behaviour, that is, he or she are active agents of coercion.
While collusion means a consciously effort on the projector's part, that is, he or she, both on the unconscious as well as on the conscious level, are planning, plotting and executing a plan, the enabling recipient being more weak or codependent simply allows the situation to happen by turning a blind eye to it or keeps quite as not to shake the boat. Similar to the cheater, a nonmonogamist acting in this way by means of projective indentification, sets a goal and achieves a moral equivalency in which his unacceptable behaviour is whitewashed and he get's the justification he's seeking. The cheater would say, "you see, you also did it, that's o.k." and the polyamorist or nonmonogamist would proclaim, "you see, you did it, it was you being unreasonable". Clear tactics of gaslighting.
2024.05.11 04:53 Coolbro39 Thoughts after watching the show three times
Well I’ve rewatched the anime three times now (in dub on Hdive) and I feel like I’ve finally been able to grasp a lot of concepts and understand the show a whole lot more yet understand that due to this I now know a whole lot less.
Such as in season 1 when Yui started getting grilled by Yumiko and Yukino stepped in and when Yui and Hachiman are outside she claims on how its his fault as she goes with Yukino then he questions himself and claims that it was Yukino’s fault right? Now understanding that Yui had feelings for Hachiman from the start due to him saving her dog and her going with Yukino was her way of getting into the service club and getting to spend more time with him and later on which means it indeed was Hachimans fault. Yui later saying how she claims that she likes “Yukinon” a lot more then she thought implying that she has grown a relationship with Yukino despite having ulterior motives since the start.
I have also grown to appreciate Hayato a lot more especially in season 2, Seeing how he really dislikes having to hold up his “nice guy” facade and how due to this he isn’t able to cause change or fix problems due to him avoiding confrontation and calling people out and wanting to please everyone. Which is why he felt inferior to Hachiman because he see’s that due to him Yukino has changed a lot and how he managed to help him solve his problem and Ebina’s, Tobe’s and Yumikos problem with his methods albeit they are really self destructive and even hayato calls him out on it since now Hachiman has people that care about him and his way of approaching things really hurts the people around him. It was nice seeing Hayato stand up for hachiman when they were with Orimoto and her friend. Hayato at the end also explaining how if you have two choices but you can only really pick one is it that much of your own decision?
Hachiman’s genuine speech and wanting to understand others in order to stop being afraid and being afraid of being hurt since from the beginning as much as he mentions liking his isolation he still strives to have relationships with people such as in the first episode where a girl calls out to him yet she was talking to someone else but he still looked her way, To me this comes off as him still craving that aspect of relationships with people that are genuine but being so afraid of being hurt by people due to his past.
After this event Yukino also mentioning how she only fulfilled Hachimans first half of his request when he asked for help with Iroha and him saying how is this some sort of riddle or something? I’m surprised hachiman didn’t catch it at the moment but later it gets brought up on fulfilling his request.
Komachi was the ultimate wing woman throughout the entire show, It was also very nice seeing her scenes with Hachiman seeing that type of sibling bond really resonated with me.
The one character that I don’t really get their intentions/emotions is Haruno, Her goal from my understanding is getting Yukino to make her own path and make her own decisions without following her big sisters footsteps. She seems to cause damage and pressure the trio into ripping their love triangle apart so she can see something genuine as well due to the groups dynamics being superficial since its clear that both of them are interested in Hachiman yet they don’t fully act on it in order to preserve the groups status quo which is similar to Hayato’s group in terms of maintaning it without straining any relationships involved in the group. However her involvement in a way was perhaps speeding things up? Unsure if we would have gotten the same result if Haruno never got involved to begin with.
Understanding Yukino’s frustration with Hachimans self sacrificing method during the kyoto trip, cultural fest and his other methods of deceiving such as his involvement with Iroha’s presidency. However seeing Yui know yet still allow certain things to happen such as the Iroha’s presidency to maintain the service club together showing how she really wanted them to stay together and seeing how they didn’t respect Yukino’s wishes and how Meguri talks with Hachiman about how Yukino would have been president and the other two would have been with her showing that Yukino’s solution could have worked out properly and if their relationships fizzled out would they have been meaningful anyway if something could separate them that easily?
When Orimoto mentions that she gave chocolates to Hachiman it grabbed Yukino, Yui, Tamanawa and Saki’s attention. This shows that Tamanawa has feeling for her as we see later on how come Saki looks though? On the timeline near this part which was Season 2 Episode 12 the didn’t have many interactions besides the I love you interaction at the culture fest so how come she looks as well does she have slight feelings for Hachiman as well or is it just more of a surprise that someone has given him chocolates before?
Some things that I never fully understood was with the max coffee, It seemed like he chose the bitter coffee when things were not going right or he was’t feeling good? I noticed that I saw the iconic yellow can in his hands when he was in a good mood or after a good decision. However I’m still unsure.
Also the reoccurring Saika moments, I’m assuming it’s like a gag like Ebina? I’m assuming it’s one of those things where it’s just a consistent joke throughout the show some of them were pretty damn funny and had great timings.
Scenes like season 3 episode 4 with Hachiman and Yui, Him saying that he promised he would save Yukino and him checking behind before taking off running showing how considerate he was, It hit so damn hard seeing Yui cry and claim that “I wish my tears hadn’t stopped then” because it could have kept Hachiman there or in season 3 episode 6 with Hachiman and Yui in the pair room “Doing stuff like this changes nothing, because the ending is already set in stone, Please turn the lie that I keep feeding myself into a reality”
Season 3 episode 7’s rap scene with Tamanawa and Hachiman was very unexpected but great!
Hearing Hiratsuka say “Youth is a lie, It is nothing but pure evil” was a throwback and reminded Hachiman of how far he has come.
Yukino’s “I love you, Hikigaya” paired up with seasons one opening was definitely something, Hit right in the feels hearing one of them finally communicate using strong and direct words.
Seeing Hachiman next to a window seat was beautiful to see.
After watching the show so many things resonated with me, The sibling bond and even the communication skills, I’ve had previous events where I’ve had to turn down girls and it feels downright awful, looking back knowing that I didn’t communicate my feelings properly and avoided answering them with a direct answer in order to avoid hurting them.
The genuine concept has definitely been in my mind before but never planted properly, Seeing how important it is has now left an impression.
There were so many meaningful and impactful moments/quotes/symbolism that I couldn’t possibly include all of them without making this post way longer sadly, It was an awesome ride that I’ve gone on thrice now and might revisit again someday and with this I’ll attach quotes I encountered that I enjoyed.
Season 1 Episode 1
“Try changing your perception, people who dont appy minimal effort have no right to go around and envy those with talent, Unsuccesful people are unsuccessful because they cant imagine the effort that succesful people have invested.” -Yukino
Season 1 Episode 1
“Guys are just simple and stuff, They’ll get the wrong idea if you so much as talk to them.” -Hachiman
Season 2 Episode 10
“In all honestly, if wishes could be granted for all who desire them, If I could get what I wanted, I wouldn’t wish for anything or want for anything, the things I can easily get are likely never genuine nor what I really wanted and I’ll surely lose it one day so I think I’ll keep searching for it” -Hachiman
Season 2 Episode 12
“Well the past just makes you want to die from regret, thoughts of the future makes you depressed with anxiety, so by process of elimination now is the best time.” -Hachiman
Season 2 Episode 12 “People usually don’t look back to see how far they’ve come while they are still walking forward, Of course though when they come to a stop they look behind them and the more progress they’ve made the more betrayed they feel by their expectations.” -Hiratsuka
Season 3 episode 7
“Just like always, we’re awful at conveying our true feelings” -Hachiman
Season 3 Episode 12
“I can stand without your help” -Yukino
“I know that, I knew that she could stand without me and I knew she would say that But, I still held out my hand for her and I probably always will” -Hachiman
submitted by Coolbro39 to OreGairuSNAFU [link] [comments]
Such as in season 1 when Yui started getting grilled by Yumiko and Yukino stepped in and when Yui and Hachiman are outside she claims on how its his fault as she goes with Yukino then he questions himself and claims that it was Yukino’s fault right? Now understanding that Yui had feelings for Hachiman from the start due to him saving her dog and her going with Yukino was her way of getting into the service club and getting to spend more time with him and later on which means it indeed was Hachimans fault. Yui later saying how she claims that she likes “Yukinon” a lot more then she thought implying that she has grown a relationship with Yukino despite having ulterior motives since the start.
I have also grown to appreciate Hayato a lot more especially in season 2, Seeing how he really dislikes having to hold up his “nice guy” facade and how due to this he isn’t able to cause change or fix problems due to him avoiding confrontation and calling people out and wanting to please everyone. Which is why he felt inferior to Hachiman because he see’s that due to him Yukino has changed a lot and how he managed to help him solve his problem and Ebina’s, Tobe’s and Yumikos problem with his methods albeit they are really self destructive and even hayato calls him out on it since now Hachiman has people that care about him and his way of approaching things really hurts the people around him. It was nice seeing Hayato stand up for hachiman when they were with Orimoto and her friend. Hayato at the end also explaining how if you have two choices but you can only really pick one is it that much of your own decision?
Hachiman’s genuine speech and wanting to understand others in order to stop being afraid and being afraid of being hurt since from the beginning as much as he mentions liking his isolation he still strives to have relationships with people such as in the first episode where a girl calls out to him yet she was talking to someone else but he still looked her way, To me this comes off as him still craving that aspect of relationships with people that are genuine but being so afraid of being hurt by people due to his past.
After this event Yukino also mentioning how she only fulfilled Hachimans first half of his request when he asked for help with Iroha and him saying how is this some sort of riddle or something? I’m surprised hachiman didn’t catch it at the moment but later it gets brought up on fulfilling his request.
Komachi was the ultimate wing woman throughout the entire show, It was also very nice seeing her scenes with Hachiman seeing that type of sibling bond really resonated with me.
The one character that I don’t really get their intentions/emotions is Haruno, Her goal from my understanding is getting Yukino to make her own path and make her own decisions without following her big sisters footsteps. She seems to cause damage and pressure the trio into ripping their love triangle apart so she can see something genuine as well due to the groups dynamics being superficial since its clear that both of them are interested in Hachiman yet they don’t fully act on it in order to preserve the groups status quo which is similar to Hayato’s group in terms of maintaning it without straining any relationships involved in the group. However her involvement in a way was perhaps speeding things up? Unsure if we would have gotten the same result if Haruno never got involved to begin with.
Understanding Yukino’s frustration with Hachimans self sacrificing method during the kyoto trip, cultural fest and his other methods of deceiving such as his involvement with Iroha’s presidency. However seeing Yui know yet still allow certain things to happen such as the Iroha’s presidency to maintain the service club together showing how she really wanted them to stay together and seeing how they didn’t respect Yukino’s wishes and how Meguri talks with Hachiman about how Yukino would have been president and the other two would have been with her showing that Yukino’s solution could have worked out properly and if their relationships fizzled out would they have been meaningful anyway if something could separate them that easily?
When Orimoto mentions that she gave chocolates to Hachiman it grabbed Yukino, Yui, Tamanawa and Saki’s attention. This shows that Tamanawa has feeling for her as we see later on how come Saki looks though? On the timeline near this part which was Season 2 Episode 12 the didn’t have many interactions besides the I love you interaction at the culture fest so how come she looks as well does she have slight feelings for Hachiman as well or is it just more of a surprise that someone has given him chocolates before?
Some things that I never fully understood was with the max coffee, It seemed like he chose the bitter coffee when things were not going right or he was’t feeling good? I noticed that I saw the iconic yellow can in his hands when he was in a good mood or after a good decision. However I’m still unsure.
Also the reoccurring Saika moments, I’m assuming it’s like a gag like Ebina? I’m assuming it’s one of those things where it’s just a consistent joke throughout the show some of them were pretty damn funny and had great timings.
Scenes like season 3 episode 4 with Hachiman and Yui, Him saying that he promised he would save Yukino and him checking behind before taking off running showing how considerate he was, It hit so damn hard seeing Yui cry and claim that “I wish my tears hadn’t stopped then” because it could have kept Hachiman there or in season 3 episode 6 with Hachiman and Yui in the pair room “Doing stuff like this changes nothing, because the ending is already set in stone, Please turn the lie that I keep feeding myself into a reality”
Season 3 episode 7’s rap scene with Tamanawa and Hachiman was very unexpected but great!
Hearing Hiratsuka say “Youth is a lie, It is nothing but pure evil” was a throwback and reminded Hachiman of how far he has come.
Yukino’s “I love you, Hikigaya” paired up with seasons one opening was definitely something, Hit right in the feels hearing one of them finally communicate using strong and direct words.
Seeing Hachiman next to a window seat was beautiful to see.
After watching the show so many things resonated with me, The sibling bond and even the communication skills, I’ve had previous events where I’ve had to turn down girls and it feels downright awful, looking back knowing that I didn’t communicate my feelings properly and avoided answering them with a direct answer in order to avoid hurting them.
The genuine concept has definitely been in my mind before but never planted properly, Seeing how important it is has now left an impression.
There were so many meaningful and impactful moments/quotes/symbolism that I couldn’t possibly include all of them without making this post way longer sadly, It was an awesome ride that I’ve gone on thrice now and might revisit again someday and with this I’ll attach quotes I encountered that I enjoyed.
Season 1 Episode 1
“Try changing your perception, people who dont appy minimal effort have no right to go around and envy those with talent, Unsuccesful people are unsuccessful because they cant imagine the effort that succesful people have invested.” -Yukino
Season 1 Episode 1
“Guys are just simple and stuff, They’ll get the wrong idea if you so much as talk to them.” -Hachiman
Season 2 Episode 10
“In all honestly, if wishes could be granted for all who desire them, If I could get what I wanted, I wouldn’t wish for anything or want for anything, the things I can easily get are likely never genuine nor what I really wanted and I’ll surely lose it one day so I think I’ll keep searching for it” -Hachiman
Season 2 Episode 12
“Well the past just makes you want to die from regret, thoughts of the future makes you depressed with anxiety, so by process of elimination now is the best time.” -Hachiman
Season 2 Episode 12 “People usually don’t look back to see how far they’ve come while they are still walking forward, Of course though when they come to a stop they look behind them and the more progress they’ve made the more betrayed they feel by their expectations.” -Hiratsuka
Season 3 episode 7
“Just like always, we’re awful at conveying our true feelings” -Hachiman
Season 3 Episode 12
“I can stand without your help” -Yukino
“I know that, I knew that she could stand without me and I knew she would say that But, I still held out my hand for her and I probably always will” -Hachiman
2024.05.11 03:40 HollowFishbone66 Johan Seong and Gun Park
 | Okay so since 1A ended I know a lot of people are angry about Johan's story direction as Jay healed his mother's eyes yet he still decides to pursue Gun, so I'm just going to take some time to flesh out their whole relationship and Johan's motivations behind this. submitted by HollowFishbone66 to lookismcomic [link] [comments] So the very first time we're introduced to Johan and Gun's relationship it's waaaaaay back at the end of the cult arc (138). https://preview.redd.it/0w2x01fa7pzc1.png?width=400&format=png&auto=webp&s=b3b7f55c53e92a7d244db9182c8f92c847c548a0 So at this point Johan has lot everything and has very little resolve with the last line Mira hearing, "I want to succeed." However besides Eden, Johan has Gun. Who he does seem to actually spend a fair amount of time with unlike Jake or Eugene, and not in a mastestudent way like Olly or Eli did. At the end of chapter 138 we even see Gun waiting for Johan's haircut to be finished before they both go gather the crew heads for some nuance meeting. Later on in the Eli Jang arc we see Johan accompanying Gun again, this time to see what Gangdong has in store for the 4 major crews. Although this is business, the two appear to be on friendly terms, Gun making small talk with Johan about martial arts during Warren vs Jerry and he even states the following after Eli knocks Johan out: https://preview.redd.it/bh3f0fur8pzc1.png?width=343&format=png&auto=webp&s=5c710bcc10520b8b056db3458bb3876dc4926f48 This is one of the incredibly rare instances Gun actually mentions he likes having someone around, the man wants to fight everyone but even he seemed to enjoy Johan's company to a degree and we can assume vice versa. https://preview.redd.it/ez1w33v09pzc1.png?width=800&format=png&auto=webp&s=43ca3e2f76909f6e8da656ce1b97b477a53eb58a Gun once again looking out for Johan (242). So with their relationship like this, presumably up until around Eli's training. Gun is more or less Johan's only friend, and one of the few people to show him genuine kindness rather than fear or negligence. Gun is also the person who really gave him the hope to succeed in life and perhaps help his mother. It is also around the Eli Jang arc, Johan develops one of his most iconic quotes and own personal philosophy. That being, "Without any power, you can't protect S" and every time this quote comes up in Johan's mind he pictures his mother. This does imply he blames himself for what happened to his mother and that he himself needs to fix her. Johan puts the idea that it is his strength that needs bring back his mother, and perhaps to prove himself worthy of being with his mother again. As we even know from "Vs Johan Seong" that Johan has indeed wanted to go back to see his mother all this time, but couldn't bring himself to, most likely out of the shame he feels of failing her and the guilt that comes with it. Going back to Gun in all this, we see the pivotal moment in their relationship in chapter 210. Right after Gun disqualifies Johan we get a small rant from Johan about how he feels about this. https://preview.redd.it/9es0wo5gapzc1.png?width=698&format=png&auto=webp&s=2f53c0b5eced5db83ebe07ca5cd34f520a355999 Notice how he constantly says "you said." Johan has had his head filled with these ideas from Gun, Gun is a huge part of the reason Johan is who he is. Gun provided hope, purpose and even some companionship, and this is all immediately stripped away when Johan himself isn't even entirely to blame. This is an incredible betrayal that is often understated in the community and to top it all off, Gun calls him pathetic like they never had any connection. https://preview.redd.it/1rwx9jq0bpzc1.png?width=395&format=png&auto=webp&s=5b63bbaa0e9ace3aaee90932d86948a2c2a1a2f6 So now Johan is completely alone, besides his dogs, with shattered hopes for his mother and only revenge. Which he now pursues about as equally as his mother's eyes. From these events it appears Johan has entangled both his revenge against Gun and helping his mother. As beating Gun symbolizes victory over his past failures and redemption, which is what he believes he NEEDS to go see his mother. So now at this point in the story with his mother's eyes healed from at outside source that he did not accomplish, Johan's only route to redemption from his point of view is to kill Gun, the man who originally stopped him from helping his mom. And in killing Gun he will have overcome his failure to help his mother and will be able to look her in the eyes once more. If you actually read all that, good job! I could add more from other chapters, but that can be it's own post if anyone actually cares about this one. |