Taken from: https://www.theringer.com/movies/2024/5/21/24161120/greatest-movie-car-chase-scenes-ranked-furiosa-mad-max-saga
In honor of the imminent ‘Furiosa: A Mad Max Saga,’ we’re shifting into high gear to determine the best chase scene in cinema history
By Miles Surrey May 21, 2024, 6:30am EDTGetty Images/Ringer illustration
After wowing audiences with Mad Max: Fury Road, director George Miller returns to the franchise’s post-apocalyptic wastelands for Furiosa, the epic origin story of the eponymous heroine (now played by Anya Taylor-Joy), premiering on Friday. As the follow-up to one of the greatest action films ever made, it’s hard to overstate the hype for Furiosa, and that was before word got out about a showstopping 15-minute sequence that required nearly 200 stuntpeople and took 78 days to shoot. While Furiosa will have its own distinct flavor, as is true of every Mad Max movie, there’s one thing that unites these projects: intense, jaw-dropping scenes of vehicular mayhem. And what better way to honor the franchise than by celebrating what it does best?
Ahead of Furiosa’s release, we’ve put together our definitive ranking of the best car chases in cinema. There weren’t any strict rules in place, other than capping the list at 20—mostly for my own sanity—and limiting every franchise to one entry. (Apologies to Fury Road’s kickass predecessor The Road Warrior.) We also won’t discriminate against scenes that feature motorbikes, so long as cars (and/or trucks) remain part of the equation. As for what, exactly, constitutes a good car chase? Like list making, it’s bound to be subjective, but I tend to gravitate toward two key elements: the skill of the stuntwork on display and the ways in which a filmmaker conveys the action in relation to the story. (Also, the less CGI, the better.) Buckle up, ’cause we’re not wasting any time shifting into high gear.

20. Quantum of Solace (2008)

There have been some memorable car chases in the James Bond franchise: the first sequence featuring the iconic Aston Martin DB5 in Goldfinger, the corkscrew jump in The Man With the Golden Gun, the Lotus Esprit submarine in The Spy Who Loved Me. But I’m going with a somewhat controversial pick here: Quantum of Solace. There are many issues with Quantum of Solace—namely, it was one of the most high-profile blockbusters affected by the 2007-08 writers strike—but its opening scene isn’t one of them. Picking up right where Casino Royale left off, we find Bond (Daniel Craig) evading henchmen through the narrow roads around Italy’s Lake Garda. The frenetic, furious chase mirrors Bond’s sense of anguish after losing Vesper Lynd (Eva Green), the woman he opened his heart to, and his relentless quest for answers. It’s a thrilling tone-setter for Quantum of Solace and one that doesn’t overstay its welcome, capped off by Bond sending his final pursuers flying off a cliff:
If we’re being honest, though, it feels like James Bond has yet to create a franchise-defining car chase. Perhaps that’s a mission the newest 007, whoever it ends up being, can undertake.

19. Mission: Impossible—Rogue Nation (2015)

The Mission: Impossible franchise is no stranger to electrifying chase scenes, the best of which find Tom Cruise’s Ethan Hunt working up his heart rate. When it comes to action behind the wheel, though, Fallout tends to dominate the discussion—even on this very website. But I think the vehicular chase in Rogue Nation is being slept on. What we have is effectively two sequences for the price of one: The first finds Hunt pursuing Ilsa Faust (Rebecca Ferguson) by car through the narrow streets of Casablanca alongside some nefarious henchmen; the second sees him continue the chase outside the city on motorbike. (Adding to the chaos: Hunt had only just been resuscitated, and he’s clearly not all there.) In terms of death-defying stunts for the audience’s entertainment, a helmetless Cruise taking corners like a MotoGP racer is child’s play compared to his other exploits, but the actor’s authentic reaction to scraping his knee on the road underlines that there’s no one else in Hollywood doing it like him:
We’ll be sure to update this ranking if and when Cruise does something even more dangerous down the road, pun unintended.

18. Vanishing Point (1971)

A movie that counts the likes of Steven Spielberg and Quentin Tarantino among its biggest fans, Vanishing Point is the first of a few entries on this ranking that’s essentially one extended car chase. The film stars Barry Newman as Kowalski, a man tasked with delivering a Dodge Challenger T 440 Magnum from Colorado to California while eluding police across four states. One of Kowalski’s most memorable run-ins comes when a guy driving a Jaguar E-Type convertible challenges him to an impromptu race. Incredibly, we’re expected to believe the man in the Jag comes out of this crash in one piece:
Vanishing Point might not boast the impressive production values of other movies on this list, but considering Tarantino would go on to feature a white Challenger in Death Proof, its influence in the car cinema canon is undeniable.

17. Fast Five (2011)

Let’s face it, Fast & Furious has seen better days. Some believe the franchise’s dip in quality coincided with the death of Paul Walker; others are dismayed by the pivot from street racing to absurd feats of superherodom—emphasis on the Dom. Perhaps it’s a bit of both, but the very best movie in the series, Fast Five, manages to strike the perfect balance: It’s a relatively grounded heist thriller that nevertheless takes the franchise to ridiculous new heights. After Dominic Toretto (Vin Diesel) and his crew steal $100 million from a Brazilian kingpin, they drag the entire bank vault holding the money through the streets of Rio de Janeiro, all while being pursued by authorities. It’s a delightfully destructive sequence that does untold damage to Rio’s infrastructure and features some of the most bone-crunching crashes committed to film:
If the Fast franchise is going to break out of its recent slump, it would do well to remember that there’s nothing better than letting its heroes live their lives a quarter mile at a time—no detours to outer space required.

16. The Blues Brothers (1980)

A good car chase isn’t reserved just for action flicks: Comedies can get in on the act, too. In The Blues Brothers, starring the recurring Saturday Night Live characters played by John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd, the beloved bandmates must prevent the foreclosure of the orphanage where they were raised by scrounging together $5,000. Naturally, that’s easier said than done: Along the way, the Blues Brothers draw the attention of neo-Nazis, a country-and-western band, and local police. While The Blues Brothers has amusing gags and musical numbers, its chase sequences with the Brothers behind the wheel of a 1974 Dodge Monaco are what really steal the show—and none are better than a climactic pursuit across Chicago. More than 60 old police cars were used in the film, some of which are wrecked in a comically over-the-top pileup:
The sheer scale of The Blues Brothers’ final set piece is commendable in and of itself—as is the movie’s commitment to treating real-life cars like a bunch of Hot Wheels.

15. Baby Driver (2017)

For good and for ill, Edgar Wright’s movies exude an abundance of style, and Baby Driver is no exception. Baby Driver is centered on a clever gimmick: The action works in tandem with its soundtrack because the film’s protagonist, Baby (Ansel Elgort), suffers from tinnitus and constantly plays music to drown out the ringing. When everything’s clicking into place, Baby Driver feels like a supersized series of music videos, and nothing hits quite like its opening sequence. Baby acts as the getaway driver for a bank robbery while listening to the Jon Spencer Blues Explosion’s “Bellbottoms.” The ensuing chase works around rhythms of the song, as if Baby’s Subaru WRX were the star of its own dance number. Take nothing away from the actual driving, either, which puts the rally car to good use:
Baby Driver’s gimmick stretches a little thin by the end, but it’s hard to deny the crowd-pleasing power of Wright’s film when it’s firing on all cylinders.

14. The Raid 2 (2014)

With a trio of kickass Indonesian martial arts films under his belt, Gareth Evans has established himself as one of the most exciting action directors on the planet—someone who seems most in his element staging positively brutal hand-to-hand combat. In The Raid 2, however, Evans also brought his signature brand of carnage to the road. While there’s some cleverly executed close-quarters fighting within the confines of an SUV, courtesy of Iko Uwais’s hard-hitting protagonist, what really cements this sequence’s greatness are the moments when Evans turns the cars into an extension of the characters’ fists:
This belongs in an entirely new category of combat: car fights. There are so many action scenes in The Raid 2 worth writing home about—the kitchen showdown is an all-timer—but the fact that Evans casually tossed in an unforgettable car chase shows why he’s one of one.

13. The Driver (1978)

I’ll say this for Walter Hill’s The Driver: It sure lives up to its title. In this stripped-down thriller—one where none of the characters have a name—we follow the Driver (Ryan O’Neal), a getaway driver who has become a thorn in the side of the LAPD. In the film’s best scene, we see its taciturn protagonist living up to his reputation. With the Driver behind the wheel of a 1974 Ford Galaxie, a cat-and-mouse game unfolds when a handful of police cars are hot on his tail. What I love about this sequence is the pared-down nature of it all: The Driver outwits the cops as much as he outraces them. (Though, ironically, that wasn’t entirely by design: As Hill later explained, an accident on the last night of shooting meant they had to cobble together what had already been filmed.) Frankly, you’d never know the difference from the finished article:
If the general vibes of The Driver seem familiar, that’s because it was a major inspiration for Nicolas Winding Refn’s Drive, which just so happened to feature an unnamed protagonist (Ryan Gosling) evading police through the streets of Los Angeles.

12. The Bourne Supremacy (2004)

The shaky-cam style of the Bourne franchise isn’t for everyone—just ask John Woo—but credit where it’s due: These movies know how to deliver a good chase scene. (A friendly reminder that The Bourne Legacy is an underrated gem with an awesome motorbike sequence to boot.) But there’s one Bourne chase that stands above the rest: the Moscow getaway in The Bourne Supremacy. After being wounded by the Russian assassin Kirill (Karl Urban), Jason Bourne (Matt Damon) hijacks a taxi, with both the police and Kirill in hot pursuit. This isn’t the kind of sequence that lingers on any one shot; instead, what makes it work is the frenetic nature of the editing, which allows the viewer to feel like they’re in Bourne’s fight-or-flight headspace:
If I’m being honest, I’m usually one of those people who doesn’t like the Bourne movies’ shaky-cam style, but when it’s executed with such craftsmanship, you can’t help but get caught up in its adrenaline-pumping power.

11. The Seven-Ups (1973)

Philip D’Antoni was the producer of two movies featuring Hall of Fame car chases, Bullitt and The French Connection, the latter of which won him an Oscar for Best Picture. And with his lone directorial feature, The Seven-Ups, D’Antoni sought to craft an iconic sequence of his own. The film stars Roy Scheider as NYPD detective Buddy Mannuci (elite Italian American name; I can practically smell the gabagool), who commands a unit handling major felony cases that lead to seven-plus-year prison sentences; that’s why they’re known as the Seven-Ups. Midway through the movie, when one of the team members is killed by two shooters who flee the scene, Buddy chases after them. The 10-minute sequence, which starts in the Upper West Side before moving out of the city, is thrillingly immersive, alternating between close-ups of the characters and wider shots of all the damage they’ve caused. But the chase’s defining moment comes right at the end, when Buddy narrowly avoids a grisly death:
The sequence isn’t quite at the level of Bullitt or The French Connection—very few are—but D’Antoni still manages to leave an unmistakable imprint on the car chase canon.

10. Death Proof (2007)

If you ask Quentin Tarantino, Death Proof, his knowingly trashy tribute to exploitation cinema, is the worst movie he’s ever made. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a lot to admire about the film, which honors the unsung heroes of Hollywood: stunt performers. The first half of Death Proof follows three female friends who cross paths with Stuntman Mike (Kurt Russell), a misogynistic serial killer who takes them out in his “death-proof” Chevy Nova. Fourteen months later, a group that includes stuntwoman Zoë Bell, playing herself, also lands on Mike’s radar. As Bell and her friends test out a ’70s Challenger, she performs a “ship’s mast” stunt, clinging onto the hood of the car with fastening belts. Unfortunately, when Mike pursues the women, it puts Bell in a precarious situation. Most of the entries on this list celebrate some next-level driving skills, but Death Proof’s inclusion is all about Bell pulling off one of the wildest stunts you’ll ever see. She’s quite literally hanging on for dear life:
If the Academy handed out Oscars to stunt performers—and let’s hope it does happen one day—Bell would’ve won in a landslide.

9. To Live and Die in L.A. (1985)

William Friedkin was already responsible for an all-time great car chase in The French Connection (more on that later), but the filmmaker made a commendable bid to outdo himself with To Live and Die in L.A. In this neo-noir thriller, Secret Service agent Richard Chance (William L. Petersen) is hell-bent on arresting an expert counterfeiter, Rick Masters (Willem Dafoe), who kills Chance’s partner days before his retirement. To capture Masters, Chance and his new partner, John Vukovich (John Pankow), attempt to steal $50,000 from a jewelry buyer for an undercover operation. The sting goes bad when the buyer, who is later revealed to be an undercover FBI agent, is killed and a group of gunmen goes after Chance and Vukovich. It’s a clever inversion of the usual car chase formula—this time, it’s the lawmen running away from the criminals. The outside-the-box thinking extends to the film’s most astonishing stretch, in which Chance evades the gunmen by driving into oncoming traffic:
The fact that Friedkin shot the chase at the end of filming—in case anything disastrous happened to the actors—underscores just how risky the endeavor was. The pulse-pounding results speak for themselves.

8. The Matrix Reloaded (2003)

The Matrix sequels have never been held in high esteem, but I’m ready to live my truth: The Matrix Reloaded fucking rules. (If anyone’s got a problem with this take, file your complaints with the Architect.) What’s more, the film happens to boast the finest action set piece of the franchise: the highway chase. After Morpheus (Laurence Fishburne) and Trinity (Carrie-Anne Moss) free the Keymaker (Randall Duk Kim), a program capable of creating shortcuts within the Matrix, they’re pursued by the Twins (Neil and Adrian Rayment). Morpheus once warned that going on the freeway was “suicide,” and it doesn’t take long to see why: The chase draws the attention of several Agents, who repeatedly take over the bodies of other drivers on the road. The scene is the best of both worlds: There’s some incredible stuntwork on display, including when Moss weaves around on a Ducati, and CGI augments some feats of superhuman strength. But the most jaw-dropping aspect of the sequence is how it came together, as the production spent $2.5 million to construct its own highway (!) on California’s Alameda Island. If that weren’t unique enough, I’m pretty sure Reloaded is also the only movie in existence in which a katana takes out an SUV:
The Matrix remains the Wachowskis’ masterpiece, but don’t get it twisted: The filmmakers were still cooking with gas in the sequel.

7. Gone in 60 Seconds (1974)

Size isn’t everything, but for H. B. Halicki, who produced, wrote, directed, and starred in Gone in 60 Seconds, it’s certainly part of the package. The indie action flick follows Maindrian Pace (Halicki), a Los Angeles insurance investigator who has a lucrative side hustle jacking high-end cars. The plot kicks into motion when a South American drug lord enlists Pace to nab 48 cars within five days in exchange for $400,000. Of course, Gone in 60 Seconds is best known for what happens after Pace is caught stealing a 1973 Ford Mustang Mach 1, when he leads police on a chase that lasts a whopping 40 minutes. (More than 90 cars were destroyed in the process.) Halicki, for his part, did all the driving himself, including a spectacular jump off a makeshift ramp of crashed cars:
While Halicki wound up making a few more indies after Gone in 60 Seconds, he died in an accident on the set of its sequel. His legacy as a do-it-all daredevil, however, lives on.

6. Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991)

Long before James Cameron immersed himself in the world of Pandora, he was a pioneer of state-of-the-art visual effects. Case in point: Terminator 2: Judgment Day is credited for having the first CGI character in a blockbuster, the T-1000 (Robert Patrick), a killing machine composed of a futuristic liquid metal. But Cameron also understood that the CGI of that era shouldn’t be the main attraction: It worked best as a complement to the practical effects, as seen in Judgment Day’s epic viaduct chase. When the T-1000 tracks down a young John Connor (Edward Furlong) in a shopping mall, he’s saved at the last minute by the Terminator (Arnold Schwarzenegger), giving John a chance to escape on his dirt bike. As the T-1000 gives chase, the David and Goliath vibes between man and machine are further epitomized by the T-1000’s commandeering of a truck. The sequence already has a terrifying sense of urgency, but it hits another level when the T-1000 crashes through the viaduct like the Kool-Aid Man:
Big Jim is still revolutionizing what can be achieved with visual effects in the Avatar franchise, and while I cherish those movies, nothing beats his old-school showmanship.

5. Duel (1971)

The feature-length debut of Steven Spielberg—perhaps you’ve heard of him—the TV movie Duel is essentially one extended chase sequence between salesman David Mann (Dennis Weaver) and a sinister trucker determined to drive him off the road. I’ve attached a clip from the ending of the film, but that doesn’t do Duel justice. What cements this movie’s greatness is how it sustains an unbearable level of tension across its 90-minute running time—with a budget under $500,000, no less. Spielberg’s masterstroke is never once showing us the other driver, anthropomorphizing the truck itself as a monster. (You can see a lot of similarities with how he would build suspense in Jaws.) When Mann finally gets the upper hand, tricking his adversary into driving off a cliff, it feels like you can breathe again:
Spielberg would move on to bigger and better things after Duel, but considering how much the director accomplished with so little, you can’t help but wonder what else he could conjure up with limited resources.

4. Mad Max: Fury Road (2015)

Like Duel, Fury Road is basically one long car chase—the difference is Miller got to work with a blockbuster budget, and made every cent of it count. It’s hard to pick a single standout sequence in Fury Road, but if I had to choose, I’d go with the first attack on the War Rig after Furiosa (Charlize Theron) flees with the wives of Immortan Joe (Hugh Keays-Byrne). Here’s why: Think back to when you saw Fury Road for the first time, before you fully grasped the vehicular carnage that was in store. And then stuff like this kept happening:
To quote Steven Soderbergh’s thoughts on Fury Road: “I don’t understand how they’re not still shooting that film and I don’t understand how hundreds of people aren’t dead.” Whether or not Miller manages to one-up the action in Furiosa, the director is already in the pantheon.

3. The French Connection (1971)

We return to the Friedkin-verse for what may be his best film, The French Connection, the crime thriller based on Robin Moore’s 1969 nonfiction book of the same name. The story concerns two NYPD detectives, Jimmy “Popeye” Doyle (Gene Hackman) and Buddy “Cloudy” Russo (Roy Scheider), and their tireless pursuit of a French heroin smuggler. But while there’s plenty to admire about how The French Connection illustrates the thin line between police and criminals, its greatest claim to fame is its car chase. After Popeye narrowly survives a sniper attack, he goes after the shooter, who escapes on an elevated train. The ensuing sequence is true daredevil filmmaking that Friedkin shot without permits, leading to real crashes with New Yorkers that made the final cut. But Friedkin’s finest touch was mounting a camera to the front of the car, making the audience feel like they’re part of the action:
My Ringer colleague Justin Sayles believes The French Connection’s chase should’ve landed at no. 1, and I’m sure many folks will agree with him. Being the only film on this list to win Best Picture, however, is a solid consolation prize.

2. Bullitt (1968)

When it comes to modern car chases, all roads lead back to Bullitt. A Dad Cinema classic, the film stars Steve McQueen as Frank Bullitt, a San Francisco detective who pursues a group of mobsters after a key witness is killed in protective custody. In his search for answers, Bullitt realizes he’s being tailed by a couple of hitmen, and then turns the tables on them. From there, the chase is on. Aside from McQueen doing most of his own stunts behind the wheel of a Ford Mustang GT 390 Fastback, what’s so impressive about the sequence is how timeless it is. Even the little imperfections, like hubcaps repeatedly coming off the wheels, work to the film’s advantage, stressing just how much these drivers are living on a razor’s edge. It’s been more than 50 years since Bullitt revolutionized the car chase, and yet few movies since have felt like they’re pushing the envelope to such an exhilarating degree:
That the car driven by McQueen was recently sold at auction for $3.74 million, a then-record price for a Mustang, underlines Bullitt’s enduring legacy.

1. Ronin (1998)

“If I’m going to do a car chase,” filmmaker John Frankenheimer said in an interview with the American Society of Cinematographers, “I’m going to do a car chase that’s going to make somebody think about whether or not they want to do another one!” Boy, did he ever. In Frankenheimer’s late-career masterpiece, Ronin, the director actually incorporated several chases, but it’s the climactic sequence that stands alone as the greatest ever filmed. The movie concerns an international group of mercenaries who are hired to steal a mysterious briefcase; a series of double-crosses and double-bluffs ensue. But for the final chase, all you need to know is that Sam (Robert De Niro), a mercenary with ties to the CIA, is in pursuit of Deirdre (Natascha McElhone), an IRA operative in possession of the case. Winding through the streets and tunnels of Paris, what’s most striking is just how fluid it all feels. You’re completely engrossed in the chase’s forward momentum, captured from every conceivable angle; a symphony of controlled chaos. The driving styles even reflect the characters: Deirdre is reckless and impulsive, while Sam remains calm and controlled.
There are many worthy car chases in this ranking, but in my view, Ronin takes pole position. And while I can’t imagine a movie ever topping what Frankenheimer achieved, I’d love nothing more than to be proved wrong.

On October 5, 2009 19-year-old Ashleigh Love worked the closing shift at Arby’s. Her mom, Tammy picked her up after work and brought her home. Ashleigh joined the family in watching the Packers game on television. When the game ended Ashleigh took a shower and went to bed. Everything seemed like a usual night, but that night was anything but normal.
In the small hours of October 6, an intruder broke into the Love home, headed for Ashleigh’s room on the second floor. The intruder was carrying a shotgun which he pointed at Ashleigh’s face before he pulled the trigger. Just down the hall, asleep in her own bed, Ashleigh’s mother, Tammy, didn't register the gunshot, but she bolted awake. That’s when she heard footsteps outside her door.
She jumped up and ran to the door of her room, yanking it open. Tammy came face to face with a shotgun wielding intruder - Tammy, who thought the house was being robbed- started shrieking “take what you want and please leave!” That’s when the intruder, who was dressed in dark clothing with a bandana over his face, ran away. He exited the house via the side door and likely crossed the backyard of the Love property.
Tammy called out to her husband to check on Ashleigh and he headed for Ashleigh’s room. He called her name but got no response. He walked through her room toward the bed in the darkness. As Joe’s eyes adjusted, he realized that his only daughter had been shot.
Milwaukee police responded to the scene and immediately separated the family so they could speak with each of them and hear their individual accounts of what happened in the house that night. Tammy told police that she’d seen the intruder. She described him as a Hispanic male, around 20 years old, with an average height and build. He had short, spiked black hair. Oddly enough, the police didn’t take Tammy to meet with a sketch artist, but more about that later. Tammy told them that she thought the intruder had an accomplice. She said when the intruder took off, she thought she could see another person running away.
When the news of the murder became public, Ashleigh’s family, friends, and co-workers were shocked to hear she’d been killed. One friend/co-worker told Fox 6 Now that he couldn’t believe the news. He was surprised because she didn’t “hang out with a crowd that would bring that sort of thing around her.”
Milwaukee police immediately began an investigation into the home invasion turned homicide.
They searched the home and collected evidence. According to the Love and Justice Podcast, nothing was taken from the home, which led investigators to rule out robbery as a motive. It appears that Ashleigh, the kind-hearted girl with a big laugh, was targeted.
Search dogs were brought in to track Ashleigh’s killer. The dogs followed a scent through the backyard and along a creek that ran through there. Then the scent was gone, possibly because her killer or killers climbed into a waiting vehicle. Ashleigh’s phone was looked through, her social media accounts dissected, initially police were looking for a spiky haired Hispanic male, someone who matched the description of the intruder, but found nothing.
While police knew that Tammy had come face to face with the man who murdered her daughter, they did not bring in a sketch artist to work with her and create an image to share with the public. Instead, police relied on the “spiky haired Hispanic male” descriptor for the perpetrator. I feel like this was a missed opportunity.
According to the Milwaukee Police Department, everyone who knew Ashleigh in some capacity was thoroughly vetted. The Love family has been completely cleared in her case.
In December 2009, investigators announced that they believed Ashleigh had been seeing someone secretly prior to her murder. They held a press conference where they asked the public for their help in identifying a man they believed Ashleigh had met with on several occasions over that summer. They said Ashleigh could have met him on Facebook or MySpace, and it's possible that she didn’t tell her friends and family about him.
The police described this man as white and in his early 20s. He has a thin build and is believed to drive a mid-2000s American-made blue pickup truck with a pinstripe trim. The truck has chrome rims, tinted windows and a raised suspension. The man may have worked in the construction industry during warmer months.
Investigators hadn’t been able to identify this man, and he was not named as a suspect - investigators just wanted to speak to him. Milwaukee Magazine reported that it was quote “their only lead”. While police are looking for this person, her family doesn’t believe that she had a secret boyfriend. Ashleigh’s closest friends said Ashleigh was too honest and open to have a double life.
Wouldn’t they want to say “here is the secret friend - please let us know if you know more about him”. Instead they offered a vague description of who the person could be. After police revealed the secret friend theory to the public, The Love family had their own announcement, a $1000 reward for information on the case.
At the sixth month anniversary, Tammy and Joe announced they were offering a $5,000 reward. Unfortunately, neither reward was enough to make someone come forward with information.
At this point, Ashleigh’s family moved out of their family home as it was too traumatizing to continue living there. Tammy, who missed her daughter fiercely, was visiting Ashleigh’s grave each day. As of 2017, it was still part of her daily routine to check on her child’s resting place.
In 2012 Ashleigh’s was classified as cold. Sure, the case gets looked at now and again, but with no new information, there isn't a way to push it forward.
In 2017, detectives told True Crime Daily that they still don’t know the motive behind Ashleigh’s death. One said, “I think when you have a crime like this, you don’t know for sure what their motive is until they explain it.”
There is a $12,000 reward available. The family says if you know something, you don’t have to be afraid to come forward. Anyone with information can contact Milwaukee Police at (414) 935-7360. You can also send a tip — named or anonymously — via the podcast website, www.loveandjusticepodcast.com
Additional reading - Milwaukee woman killed while sleeping 13 years ago, podcast sheds new light (fox6now.com) 7 Years Later, Family of Ashleigh Love Still Looking for Clues in Homicide (cbs58.com)
ASHLEIGH LOVE, 13 YEARS UNSOLVED, MILWAUKEE WI : coldcases (reddit.com)

A few days ago, I put up a Bob Marley quote on a dating app I’m on (Michael c stalks it…the dating app is where db catfish found me). Then they go on an anniversary dinner with the people they went to the Bob Marley premier.

After R, did you renew vows/get remarried?
A very unfortunate aspect of our situation (that i hold a lot of resentment over) was that our wedding brunch 7 years prior was at the same restaurant the A took place (they were both employees). Now, even though there was not anything happening during our anniversary, I feel as though it will forever be tied with what he did. When we first started on the road to R, I told him he owed me a new ring and a "whole new wedding to be perfectly honest". My current wedding set is my grandmother's because we weren't in a position when we got engaged for him to buy a set, but now it's attached to a marriage that essentially no longer exists and i really struggle with that, especially because I hold so much value in sentimental items. Any time the topic of the ring comes up he says that I haven't given him my ring size. I know the easy solution would be to get my ring size....but why can't he be resourceful and measure my current ring? I don't wear it so it's in my jewelry hutch. Just feels like an excuse to put off buying a ring. I do believe he loves me and struggles with his choices, he's made a complete 180 in the way he was before the A vs today. Then I see things like 'if he wanted to he would' and i honestly find that quote to be so triggering, but there is def truth to it. Idk what my purpose in this post was really. I guess just wondering if it's common to get remarried after? It's not like we ever truly and fully recover from this type of trauma.

After R, did you renew vows/get remarried?
A very unfortunate aspect of our situation (that i hold a lot of resentment over) was that our wedding brunch 7 years prior was at the same restaurant the A took place (they were both employees). Now, even though there was not anything happening during our anniversary, I feel as though it will forever be tied with what he did. When we first started on the road to R, I told him he owed me a new ring and a "whole new wedding to be perfectly honest". My current wedding set is my grandmother's because we weren't in a position when we got engaged for him to buy a set, but now it's attached to a marriage that essentially no longer exists and i really struggle with that, especially because I hold so much value in sentimental items. Any time the topic of the ring comes up he says that I haven't given him my ring size. I know the easy solution would be to get my ring size....but why can't he be resourceful and measure my current ring? I don't wear it so it's in my jewelry hutch. Just feels like an excuse to put off buying a ring. I do believe he loves me and struggles with his choices, he's made a complete 180 in the way he was before the A vs today. Then I see things like 'if he wanted to he would' and i honestly find that quote to be so triggering, but there is def truth to it. Idk what my purpose in this post was really. I guess just wondering if it's common to get remarried after? It's not like we ever truly and fully recover from this type of trauma.

Johann Gottlieb Fichte

19 May 1762 – 29 January 1814
J. G. Fichte and a priori Providentialism
Part of a Series on the Philosophy of History
Sunday 19 May 2024 is the 262nd anniversary of the birth of Johann Gottlieb Fichte (19 May 1762 – 29 January 1814), who was born in Rammenau, Saxony, then part of the Holy Roman Empire, on this day in 1762.
Fichte is often remembered in histories of philosophy as an immediate successor to Kant in the German idealist tradition. While still a young man Fichte wrote and anonymously published Attempt at a Critique of All Revelation. This was in 1792 when Fichte was 30 years old. Many believed that Kant had written this work, given Kant’s earlier critiques of pure reason, practical reason, and judgment, so when Kant denied authorship and identified Fichte as the actual author, Fichte experienced the philosophical equivalent of being an overnight sensation.
But Fichte’s life was an unsheltered as Kant’s life was sheltered. He was a born trouble-maker and was willing to touch the third rail of Enlightenment politics by writing and speaking openly about matters of religion, as revealed by his work on revelation. Fichte is sometimes called inflexible and rigid, though we could also say (a little more charitably) that he was principled and not inclined to compromise. Partly as a result of this temperament, Fichte became embroiled in a controversy in German intellectual life remembered as the Atheismusstriet, or Atheism Controversy.
During this controversy Friedrich Jacobi published an open letter against Fichte in which Jacobi coined the term “nihilism” to describe what he took to be Fichte’s position:

“Truly, my dear Fichte, I would not be vexed if you, or anyone else, were to call Chimerism the view I oppose to the Idealism that I chide for Nihilism. I have paraded my not-knowing in all my writings; in my non-knowledge I have prided myself so to be with knowledge, so perfectly and completely, that I am certainly allowed to be contemptuous of the mere doubter.—I have wrestled for truth with zeal and fervour since childhood as few others; as few others have I experienced my powerlessness—and my heart has grown tender for that—yea, very tender, my dear Fichte—and my voice so gentle! Just as I have deep compassion for myself, as human being, so I have it for others. I am patient without effort; but that I am truly patient without effort costs me a lot. The earth will be light above me—it won’t be long.”

Nihilism was to go on to have quite a career as an idea after Jacobi’s letter. While for Jacobi, the nihilism he attributed to Fichte was the inevitable outcome of reason, nihilism did not remain centered on Jacobi’s critique of Kantian philosophy, but came to signify belief in nothing at all.
Fichte’s controversial stance created a problem for the authorities at the University of Jena, where Fichte was employed at the time. Fichte wouldn’t budge, and this was one of the episodes responsible for his reputation for inflexibility, so the University of Jena dismissed him in 1799. At this point, with little to his name and few prospects, Fichte walked from Jena to Berlin—Google Maps says it takes 55 hours to complete this walk—and eventually he became part of the philosophical scene in Berlin.
Fichte attempted, semi-successfully, to support himself with popular books and lectures. For a philosopher coming from a background of Kantian philosophy—the most technical philosophy of its day—this was a bold project, but he gamely attempted to bring his interpretation of Kantianism to the masses. One of the outcomes of this effort was Fichte’s short book The Vocation of Man (1800). Fichte’s academic work was riddled with jargon, but The Vocation of Man is written in plain language and was intended for a popular audience. However, it’s still a demanding philosophical argument. In it, Fichte articulated a conception of human destiny that is universalistic, rationalistic, teleological, and even infinitistic:

“Let us not ask of history if man, on the whole, have yet become purely moral. To a more extended, comprehensive, energetic freedom he has certainly attained; but hitherto it has been an almost necessary result of his position, that this freedom has been applied chiefly to evil purposes. Neither let us ask whether the aesthetic and intellectual culture of the ancient world, concentrated on a few points, may not have excelled in degree that of modern times! It might happen that we should receive a humiliating answer, and that in this respect the human race has not advanced, but rather seemed to retrograde, in its riper years. But let us ask of history at what period the existing culture has been most widely diffused, and distributed among the greatest number of individuals; and we shall doubtless find that from the beginning of history down to our own day, the few light-points of Civilization have spread themselves abroad from their centre, that one individual after another, and one nation after another, has been embraced within their circle, and that this wider outspread of culture is proceeding under our own eyes. And this is the first point to be attained in the endless path on which humanity must advance.”

Notice that Fichte implies a distinction between two kinds of progress: there is progress toward the highest degree of excellence, and here humanity may have backslid, but there is also progress toward broadly distributed high culture, and here Fichte thinks that his time definitely surpassed previous history. Fichte also says that progress, by which he means moral progress, is an endless path, and we have already seen that it is possible for humanity to experience retrograde moral progress, so the pathway to man becoming purely moral, as Fichte sees it, is endless, it can incorporate reversals, and it can be striving to new heights or to wider diffusion.
This and many other passages point to the infinite perfectibility of man, which shows us the extent to which Fichte had imbibed the ideals of the French Revolution—or, we might say, he had imbibed the ideals of the French philosophers who were instrumental in laying the foundations of the French revolution, and were later arguably co-opted by the revolution, as in the case of Condorcet, who wrote this paean to the infinite perfectibility of man while on the run from the revolutionary gendarme. But the infinite perfectibility of man as Fichte imagines it is a teleology with a real history: things can go wrong, we can get sidetracked, we might pursue one form of moral excellence or another, and so on.
And Fichte also transmuted the French concept of the infinite perfectibility of man in the image of German idealism, producing a kind of philosophical spiritualism. Part of this transmutation of ideals came about because of the direction that Fichte saw the French revolution take as it developed. Many philosophers at the time initially supported the ideals of the French Revolution, but came to see it in a different light after the Terror and the Napoleonic Wars. Fichte as well.
Seeking to rally his countrymen after defeats inflicted by Napoleon, Fichte gave a series of public lectures later published as Addresses to the German Nation. This was more than a half century before the unification of Germany as a nation-state. In the twentieth century this work was savaged by George Santayana in his book Egotism in German Philosophy, which I mentioned in my episode on Wars and Rumors of Wars. Santayana called Fichte “an uncompromising puritan” and in Santayana’s fever dream of German expansionism he imagined Fichte as the source of it all:

“…Fichte gives us prophetic glimpses of an idealistic Germany conquering the world. The state does not aim at self-preservation, still less is it concerned to come to the aid of those members of the human family that lag behind the movement of the day. The dominion of unorganised physical force must be abolished by a force obedient to reason and spirit. True life consists in refashioning human relations after a model innate in the mind. The glorious destiny of Germany is to bring forth and establish the world anew. Natural freedom is a disgraceful thing, a mere medley of sensual and intellectual impulses without any principle of order. It is for the Germans to decide whether a providential progress exists by becoming themselves the providence that shall bring progress about, or whether on the contrary every higher thought is folly. If they should fail, history would never blame them, for in that case there would be no more history.”

Many others also have seen Fichte’s work through the lens of the wars of their time, which were the world wars of the twentieth century, rather than through the lens of the wars of Fichte’s time, which were the Napoleonic Wars.
Fichte knew that he was putting his life on the line by publicly speaking out against the French, as he at one time referenced the fate of Johann Philipp Palm. Palm, a book seller, was connected to a pamphlet, Germany in Its Deep Humiliation (Deutschland in seiner tiefsten Erniedrigung), that angered Napoleon. Napoleon ordered his subordinates to try and execute Palm within twenty-four hours. Palm was tried on 26 August 1806 by a French military tribunal, found guilty, and shot within hours of the verdict. Four other book sellers also were tried were not executed. Fichte knew that the same thing could happen to him in publicly speaking out on behalf of the German people. We can see from incidents such as this that Fichte was in the thick of the history of his own time, sometimes riding the wave and sometimes making waves.
Roberta Picardi notes both the derivation and dependence of Fichte’s views from Kant, as well as Fichte’s divergence from Kant:

“Fichte explores the epistemic status and method of history with an aim which is clearly taken from Kant: the purpose of introducing a systematic and scientific method in the infinite field of the empiricism, of which history is a part, together with experimental physics. As we can read in The Characteristics of the Present Age he wants to obtain ‘a sure progress according to rule instead of an uncertain groping in the dark’ from history, i. e., instead of the ‘Herumptappen’ (this is the German word for ‘groping’) that in the second Preface to the Critique of Pure Reason Kant contrasts with the ‘secure path of a science’.”

But the secure path of science isn’t always all that secure, given that there are multiple scientific pathways, and not all pathways lead to the same end. This is the distinction within Fichte’s philosophy of history noted by Angelica Nuzzo:

“Fichte builds his idea of a philosophy of history upon a paradoxical argument. He pushes to the extreme the claim of the bare factual nature of history as a realm of irrational, not-conceptual, and thoroughly contingent reality. Yet he also maintains that philosophical knowledge of history is possible—although neither as deductive, nor conceptual, nor genetic knowledge. Against the fictitious notion of historical Wahrscheinlichkeit (plausibility, probability), Fichte holds on to the notion of ‘historical truth’ and to its ‘logic.’ Despite its radically empirical character, history can be construed a priori.”

Some of the flavor of Fichte’s a priori approach to history can be gained from his primary work on the philosophy of history Characteristics of the Present Age (Der Grundzüge des gegewärtigen Zeitalters, 1806), in which he decomposes history into Five Principal Epochs, based not on historical contingencies, but rather upon human destiny and moral development:

“…we endeavoured to pre-figure the whole Earthly Life of Man by a comprehension of its purpose;— to perceive why our Race had to begin its Existence here, and by this means to describe the whole present Life of humankind:—this is what we wished to do,—it was our first task. There are, according to this view, Five Principal Epochs of Earthly Life, each of which, although taking its rise in the life of the individual, must yet, in order to become an Epoch in the Life of the Race, gradually lay hold of and interpenetrate all Men; and to that end must endure throughout long periods of time, so that the great Whole of Life is spread out into Ages, which sometimes seem to cross, sometimes to run parallel with each other:—1st, The Epoch of the unlimited dominion of Reason as Instinct: —the State of Innocence of the Human Race. 2nd, The Epoch in which Reason as Instinct is changed into an external ruling Authority;—the Age of positive Systems of life and doctrine, which never go back to their ultimate foundations, and hence have no power to convince but on the contrary merely desire to compel, and which demand blind faith and unconditional obedience:—the State of progressive Sin. 3rd, The Epoch of Liberation,—directly from the external ruling Authority—indirectly from the power of Reason as Instinct, and generally from Reason in any form;—the Age of absolute indifference towards all truth, and of entire and unrestrained licentiousness:—the State of completed Sinfulness. 4th, The Epoch of Reason as Knowledge;—the Age in which Truth is looked upon as the highest, and loved before all other things:—the State of progressive Justification. 5th, The Epoch of Reason as Art;—the Age in which Humanity with more sure and unerring hand builds itself up into a fitting image and representative of Reason:—the State of completed Justification and Sanctification. Thus, the whole progress which, upon this view, Humanity makes here below, is only a retrogression to the point on which it stood at first, and has nothing in view save that return to its original condition. But Humanity must make this journey on its own feet; by its own strength it must bring itself back to that state in which it was once before without its own coöperation, and which, for that very purpose, it must first of all leave.”

We can call Fichte’s Five Principal Epochs a “stadial” philosophy of history, since “stadial” refers to stages. In this passage we gain an appreciation of the necessity of the five stages of history as a developmental process that cannot be gotten around: there is no royal road to the end of the history.
In the Second Lecture from Fichte’s Some Lectures Concerning the Scholar’s Vocation, he makes explicit both the a priori developmental history of humanity and the utopian picture of the ultimate end of human development:

“…a very great man has said, life in the state is not one of man’s absolute aims. The state is, instead, only a means for establishing a perfect society, a means which exists only under specific circumstances. Like all those human institutions which are mere means, the state aims at abolishing itself. The goal of all government is to make government superfluous. Though the time has certainly not yet come, nor do I know how many myriads or myriads of myriads of years it may take (here we are not at all concerned with applicability in life, but only with justifying a speculative proposition), there will certainly be a point in the a priori foreordained career of the human species when all civic bonds will become superfluous.”

The editor says in a footnote that the “great man” mentioned was probably an allusion to Kant’s Idea of History from a Cosmopolitan Point of View. We saw in my episode on Kant how Kant saw the teleology of humanity as establishing the perfect civil constitution, though I also speculated that, if we take Kant’s later writings on history in the context of his early pre-critical work on natural history, this Kantian teleology for humanity is nested within a larger cosmological teleology. By my reading, then, Kant is actually the more naturalistic position, while Fichte is the more anthropocentric, and his ideal is a purely spiritual ideal, even an a priori idea. For example, Fichte isn’t in the least interested to even give an estimate of the period of time that will be required for humanity to abolish all government, but he only points out that this is the ultimate end.
Marx also predicted the withering away of the state after communism had been achieved, and Marx, too, emphasized definite stages in human development that would lead to this outcome. With Kant, Fichte, and Marx all predicting the end of formal human governments we might take this prediction as a distinctive feature of a certain class of philosophies of history. Toynbee, too, saw not exactly the end of the state, but the end of universal civilizations, which would cede their place to universal churches, which sounds to me a lot like Kant, Fichte, and Marx anticipating the ultimate abolition of government in a perfect society.
This we can understand as a kind of inverse teleology, in which it is not (or not only) the advent of some future eventuality that is foreseen, but the abolition of some present state-of-affairs in the future as the goal of human development. For Kant, Fichte, Marx, and Toynbee, there is a dual teleological movement, in which some novel state-of-affairs is to unfold, while a present state of affairs is to give way and disappear as the new order comes to replace it. We could call this a stadial philosophy of history, but it is as much a substitutional philosophy of history: one social order is substituted for another; familiar institutions are to be replaced by novel institutions that take their place.
As far as the new institutions are expected to be an improvement over the old, this is also a melioristic philosophy of history. All progressivist philosophies of history are also melioristic, but we can distinguish between gradualistic meliorism, in which iterated reform eventually converges on a perfect society, which could be a finite or an infinitistic process, and stadial meliorism, in which there is a replacement rather than reform of a social order, and this replacement is an improvement.
For a non-stadial, non-teleological philosophy of history, we can turn to Leopold von Ranke, who was critical of Fichte’s five epochs:

“One of the ideas with which philosophy again and again confronts history as an irrefutable claim is that mankind is on an uninterrupted road to progress, in a steady development toward perfection. Fichte, one of the foremost philosophers in this field, assumes five epochs, a world plan as he says – reason ruling through instinct, reason ruling through law, emancipation from the authority of reason, reason as science, and reason as art. If this or a similar scheme were to any extent true, then general history would have to follow the road of progress which the human race followed in the indicated direction from one age to the next. The sole subject matter of history would then be the development of such concepts as they appear and manifest themselves in the world of phenomena. But this is by no means the case. For one thing, the philosophers themselves have extraordinarily varied opinions about the nature and selection of these supposedly ruling ideas. But they very wisely focus only on a few peoples in world history while considering the lives of all the rest as nothing, as a mere supplement. Otherwise it could not be hidden for a moment that from the beginning to this day the peoples of the world have been in the most varied conditions.”

We saw earlier that Fichte by no means argued for an uninterrupted road to progress, but we can set that aside as being of secondary importance. The antagonism between Fichte and Ranke runs deeper. Ranke is often associated with the emergence of historicism, and sometimes he is identified as the source of historicism. Ranke even was willing to express his historicism in theological terms when we said that all ages are equidistant from God. With this view of history as consisting of co-equal periods each with their own integrity it would be difficult, though not impossible, to argue for progress. In Characteristics of the Present Age Fichte rejects the view that an age can be assessed on its own terms:

“Should our view of the Present Age prove to have been a view taken from the standing-point of this Age itself, should the eye which has taken this view have been itself a product of the Age which it has surveyed, then has the Age borne witness to itself and such testimony must be set aside.”

Fichte, then, needs some criterion for his view of the present age other than the present age itself, and he finds it in religion:

“…what has been the nature of this theory, considered in its essential elements, and to what chief department of human thought it has belonged? I answer:—It was a Religious Theory; all our contemplations were Religious contemplations, and our view of things, and the eye which embraced that view, were Religious.”

Fichte goes one better and actually gives a definition of religion in the next paragraph:

“RELIGION consists in regarding and recognising all Earthly Life as a necessary development of the one, original, perfectly good and perfectly blessed Divine Life.”

Both Ranke and Fichte, then, invoke theological sanction for their conception of history, though this conception is starkly different, with Ranke taking each age to be sufficient unto itself, and no less related to the divine than any other age, while Fichte took each age to be dependent upon a larger framework for its meaning. While Ranke the historian insists on the individual uniqueness of each age, while Fichte the philosopher sees each age in relation to the whole of which it is a part. It is the task of Fichte’s Characteristics of the Present Age to provide for his contemporaries this larger framework so that they can understand their place in history, which for Fichte means understanding their place in the moral development of humanity.
Even Fichte’s conception of religion and moral development is strikingly abstract, as we find a little further on in the last chapter of Characteristics of the Present Age: “…Religion is nothing external,—it never clothes itself in any outward manifestation.” And, “…True Religion does not manifest itself outwardly, and does not impel man to any course of external conduct which he would not otherwise have adopted, but that it only completes his true Inward Being and dignity.” This is not necessary an orthodox position, and we’ve already seen how Fichte got himself in trouble with authorities with his views on religion.
It would seem strange to call Fichte’s philosophy of history a providential philosophy of history, as it seems to have little in common with, say, St. Augustine, but by Fichte’s own account, his is a pervasively religious perspective, and his philosophy of history is an account of humanity’s progress toward moral perfection. This progress is a purely inward fulfillment, without any observational consequences, again, by Fichte’s own account. I’ve run into this view in one other thinker, and that is Simone Weil. In my episode on Weil I quoted her criticism of providentialism of a kind that I called vulgar providentialism:

“Divine Providence is not a disturbing influence, an anomaly in the ordering of the world; it is itself the order of the world; or rather it is the regulating principle of this universe. It is eternal Wisdom, unique, spread across the whole universe in a sovereign network of relations.”

I think Fichte would have agreed with this, and with the examples of both Fichte and Weil we can see that there is a place within the conceptual space of philosophy of history for what we could call a pure providential philosophy of history, or, if you like, an a priori providentialism.
Ranke’s criticism of Fichte is predicated upon the necessity of a vulgar providentialism that is reflected in the empirical world. But if, as Fichte said, religion is nothing external, and it does not impel man to any course of external conduct, neither should it impel any course of external conduct on the world. This also resolves the paradoxical argument that Angelica Nuzzo found at the heart of Fichte’s philosophy of history, since the bare factual nature of history can be distinguished from the providentialism that can be construed a priori.

Video Presentation

https://youtu.be/T8eIxZi0LrM
https://www.instagram.com/p/C7LPoSKNdPB/
https://odysee.com/@Geopolicraticus:7/j.-g.-fichte-and-a-priori:6

Podcast Edition

https://spotifyanchor-web.app.link/e/73G2BY64JJb
https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/a31b8276-53cd-4723-b6ad-a39c8faa4572/episodes/306a6446-d4d7-4e24-a447-c89fd310d7a2/today-in-philosophy-of-history-j-g-fichte-and-a-priori-providentialism
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/269-today-in-philosophy-of-his-146507578/episode/j-g-fichte-and-a-priori-177816272/
​

In an article in Game Informer, Jeremy Crawford and Chris Perkins are giving quotes that signal WoTC's changed attitudes towards the settings in the D&D multiverse. To me it feels like Forgotten Realms is becoming less central, unfortunately, to the 5r. Any thoughts? Should we form up a peer support group to discuss what this means to people who thoroughly enjoy Forgotten Realms? :)
1) "Prior core D&D releases would often stop short of offering detail about myriad campaign settings or focus exclusively on one of them - often the Forgotten Realms. The revised books are more explicit in embracing the vastness of D&D worlds, including the likes of Krynn, Eberron, Spelljammer, Planescape and Greyhawk, while also openly touting that every gaming table around the world has their own (often homebrewed) world in the mix of that multiverse."
2) "Even as the multiverse of D&D worlds sees increased attention, the Dungeon Master's Guide also offers a more discrete setting to get gaming groups started. After very few official releases in the last couple of decades, the world of Greyhawk takes center stage. The book fleshes out Greyhawk to illustrate how to create campaign settings of your own. Greyhawk was the original D&D game world crafted by D&D co-creator Gary Gygax, and a worthy setting to revisit on the occasion of D&D's golden anniversary. It's a world bristling with classic sword and sorcery concepts, from an intrigue-laden central city to wide tracts of uncharted wilderness. Compared to many D&D campaign settings, it's smaller and less fleshed out, and that's sort of the point; it begs for DMs to make it their own. The book offers ample info to bring Greyhawk to life but leaves much undetailed. For those eager to take the plunge, an included poster map of the Greyhawk setting sets the tone, and its reverse reveals a map of the city of the same name. “A big draw to Greyhawk is it's the origin place for such heroes as Mordenkainen, Tasha, and others,” Perkins says. “There's this idea that the players in your campaign can be the next great world-hopping, spell-crafting heroes of D&D. It is the campaign where heroes are born.”
Link to the article: https://gameinformer.mydigitalpublication.com/publication/?m=10122&i=821673&p=16&ver=html5

We have an overdue update on how Mother's Day went .... some of you may recall this thread ...
https://www.reddit.com/melbourne/comments/1c3kr3d/wanted_restaurant_for_fussiest_mother_in_melbourne/
So we ended up at Botticelli in Brighton, based on several recommendations from fellow Redditors. Thanks to them!
The restaurant had to tick several boxes to try to please The Fussiest Mother In Melbourne (TFMIM), including having oysters kilpatrick and creme brulee on the menu...
Botticelli did a fine job! Her daughter and I were expecting red chequered tablecloths and bottles of chianti in wicker baskets, based on some of the mentions here, but it was nothing like a nostalgia trip.
It was damn near fine dining. But unpretentious - and excellent. Slightly pricey-ish pasta, with seafood and quality steaks. But it was all mostly* excellent. Nice cosy joint, attentive and lovely staff, would actually recommend.
*''Mostly" because you must remember, TFMIM was with us.
Things got off to an edgy start because of an apparent absence of moscato on the wine list, which provoked the early-warning quote of ''I can't believe an Italian restaurant does not offer moscato!'' (a tremendous echo of her legendary ''I cannot believe a Greek restaurant does not offer a prawn cocktail starter!'' to a waitress at Hellenic Republic, uttered in 2019 and verifiable.)
However anxious offspring came to the rescue with a sighting in a somewhat unexpected part of the wine list, and she actually really enjoyed her one glass of moscato. FYI, TFMIM never EVER has more than one glass of wine. Ever. She has never been intoxicated in her life. However her attempts to castigate close and distant family members about the evils of alcohol can very quickly be shot down on the day of her wedding anniversary, when even year 6 maths can deduce that she was actually pregnant when walking down the aisle in virginal white at the turn of the 1970s. She will now often get a gleeful return of fire about the evils of pre-marital sex LOL if she arcs up too much.
Anyway, big tick for wine and for the menu even before any food was ordered - creme brulee, classic gnocchi and oysters kilpatrick were welcomed when spotted, and all and sundry were given a reassuring earful that this strange restaurant might actually be OK after all.
Sadly, the oysters kilpatrick did not please. TFMIM will only eat oysters done this way, and Botticelli failed to in its signature duty to immolate the bacon using a flamethrower for at least 15min, and drown the half shell in Worcestershire sauce.
Such wilful neglect by the kitchen exposes the unwary diner to the ACTUAL TASTE of an oyster, which is never desireable to the mind of TFMIM. She is appalled at even the look of oysters served any other way.
TFMIM ''likes'' oysters (kilpatrick, only) in the same way that 14yr olds ''like" Jack Daniel's (in a 1:50 ratio mix with Coke, in a can, only).
The anti-pasti share platters went down well, until we ran out of the specifically char-grilled bread (5 ravenous diners) and requested more - and it arrived un-charred. TFMIM was a bit miffed and as is her wont, spent 2-3min commenting on that.
But nonetheless it was a smooth transition to the mains. Her husband (78) pronounced his steak one of the best he had ever consumed, and we all loved our pasta and seafood dishes.
TFMIM enjoyed her baked scallops on shell (a starter for her main) but could only manage two not three. A gloriously cheap date. She was clearly saving herself for the creme brulee and (pinching our) sticky date pudding. The former was critiqued as a bit runny, but there was no fault found with the latter.
Overall, we would return to Botticell. TFMIM probably would too, but as it was the first visit to the Brighton shopping strip in about 30yrs for a lifelong Melbourne resident who usually only ventures out of the city for the exotic temptations of Deniliquin in NSW (regular visits to relatives), I wouldn't set your watch by it.
See you at a buffet in the northern suburbs again REAL SOON.....

The moment a lot of you have been waiting for is here!
A couple of notes before you read (or after because I would just jump into the list right away too)

1. Direct quotes from Ali herself are in italics.
2. I tried my best to keep everything in timeline order. Some people like The Come Back Kid I placed in the order where they reconnected/talked about on the pod. But I did my best to note this.
3. All this information came from the FMH podcast, the Patreon, the original FMH blog, TikTok and other podcast that feature FMH/Ali. I also crossed reference information with this sub. I got most of this done with the help of the Patreon and listening to 1.75x speed but I lost accessed to the Patreon because my subscription ended.
4. I'm open to edits! Things around the matchmaker era confused me and if anything is incorrect or if I'm missing someone, please let me know! I will note where corrections are made.
5. Some people don't have anything simply because only a name was said or I couldn't find any details about the person/date
6. And of course, please be respectful of all the sub rules!

Names on the original FMH blog

• Mr. Adorable aka The Coach
• Trouble
• Waffles
• Future Husband Brian (FHB)
• Cookie
• Peter Pan
• Ambiguous Goodbye Guy
• Bad Bitch Man

AOL chatroom Boyfriend
Mentioned on Tiktok and on the pod once
Myspace Boyfriend
Mentioned on Tiktok
Third Boyfriend
Met on eCrush.com in 2002 and this was mentioned on the Cracked Up podcast, The Dave Glaser Podcast and Tiktok
The Kiwi
Met on a 2 week Model UN type youth trip in high school when Ali was 15, never a boyfriend but she had a huge crush on him, he tried to kiss Ali and she literally ran away, didn’t talk the rest of the trip but exchanged numbers and screen names (Ali’s was FineGal13 or BeachJewel760), she made him a mixtape cd called “Ali’s really cool mix for The Kiwi” but never sent it and she still has it. In 2021, he DM’d her when she posted photos of her and her mom in France and invites her to visit him in London, she says she can’t but says they should catch up if he comes to NYC
Fourth Boyfriend
Met on OkCupid when you had to use it on the computer, this was mentioned on Tiktok
The Homecoming Date or Light Switch
First boyfriend? (she goes back and forth calling him her first bf or a situationship), a family friend, a month younger than Ali, dated in high school but went to different high schools, football player, made him ask her to her Homecoming dance over email (her words), Ali hid in the bathroom the whole Homecoming dance, 3-4 revisits of this situations as adults, saw him on Bumble a few years ago and texted him that he had a typo in his bio, “he very much wanted to be with me” and now he’s married with a kid. His mom is still “obsessed” with Ali and she listens to FMH
Random college guy
Freshman year of college, Ali doesn’t have a nickname for him/doesn’t remember his real name, met this guy through a friend, was texting him to invite him over to hot tub but her phone autocorrected to “how about some hot rubbing tonight?” but Ali didn’t noticed/didn’t correct it and he never replied, Ali had a house party and got really drunk and was all over him, he left the party early, she messaged him on MySpace 3-4 times asking why he left
The Resident
Matched on Match.com, first guy she dated in NYC after college, older than Ali, a doctor, lasted 3 months ”maybe”, he didn’t like Ali’s friends, got a card from him on her birthday and it said “Love, The Resident” and it took Ali back a little, Ali drinks black coffee because of him, he coordinated having her mom visit NYC for her birthday then he broke up with her a week later
The Ghost
Met at a bar when she was 25, turns out they matched on OkCupid and they already had a date scheduled next week, they dated for 6-8 weeks, had sleepovers, “The worst ghosting experience I’ve ever had”, he borrowed The Great Gatsby from Ali’s roommate, planned to make dinner together after a beach trip in August with her friends and never showed up, Ali is blowing up his phone and gets no reply, two weeks later she finally texts “are you alive? check yes or no” and he responds “Yes”, Ali then ask if he could return the book and gets no reply again, 5 months go by and she receives the book in the mail with the note: “Here’s the book back. Sorry. P.S. sorry about last summer. I was in a bad place. You’re a great person and your salmon is amazing”, since then she has ran into him twice on the streets and matched with him on Bumble
The Coach/Mr. Adorable
First serious boyfriend at 26/27 in 2013, matched on Match.com or met through work depending if you’re listening to the pod or reading her OG blog, clean-cut look, played volleyball, Ali invited him to a friend’s birthday party and they made out in the streets at 4am, on their second date he asked Ali if she was seeing any one and when Ali said no he ask her to be his girlfriend 3 days after their first date, dated for almost 1.5 years or almost 2 years depending on if you’re listening to the pod or the Patreon, first time saying “I love you” to a guy, “lovely guy“, never would posted Ali on his instagram until Ali said something, he “lived” with her for two weeks while he was in between apartments, tried blind folding/hair pulling during sex and she didn’t like it, by the end of their relationship Ali didn’t like sex and thought she wasn’t a very sexual person, after they broke up Ali drunk texted him at 2am and he picked her up and she spent the night and she took her things in the morning in a rolly suitcase, from her blog in 2015: “I just want to be careful I don’t end up with another Mr. Adorable situation, where I find myself dating my platonic best friend”, had drinks with him in 2016 from the blog: “Not in a romantic way (at least on my end)”, Ali still talks to him sometimes through casual instagram DMs, he’s currently (as of 2021) dating someone for 4+ years and Ali thinks they’re going to get engaged
Trouble
OG 2015 FMH blog, never mentioned on the pod, “I was immediately enamored with him”, met at a Beer Olympic party but he worked with one of Ali’s best friends (Ali was still dating The Coach at the time), lived in BK, tattoos and stubble, Ali’s best friend said he was a “fuck boy”, “he very much made me see that it was the right thing for me and The Coach to not be together”, from her blog in 2015: “he has this look in his eye like he’s constantly laughing at me – in a super sexy way”, he texted her saying he didn’t see anything romantically with her and she sent a gif of someone shrugging
Personal side note: Ali has mentioned she has cheated on someone but never disclosed who she cheated on or with. I feel like she cheated on Mr.A/The Coach with Trouble because of the timeline. Just a guess.
Waffles
Matched on Bumble, OG 2015 FMH blog, he asked Ali fuck/marry/kill breakfast foods, dated 2 months around summer time, on Fourth of July while watching fireworks he said how they had a great day and Ali replied with something along the lines with “yeah, it would be better if I could call you my boyfriend”, he said he wanted a relationship but just not with Ali and shortly afterwards they stopped seeing each other
The Buffalo
Lived in Buffalo NY, 6’5, Scorpio, met in 2015 at Adults National volleyball (Ali’s team won that year) where he was heckling her while she was playing, asks Ali’s mom for her number and Ali’s mom said “I guess you’re tall enough” and told him to ask her himself, he flew her out and she met his parents, dated over summer, exclusive but never boyfriend/girlfriend (but called him her LD boyfriend on TikTok), texted and talked on the phone a lot, Ali’s best friend’s favorite ex “they had really good banter”, in October he invited her to his cousins wedding and she invited him to her friends wedding, after Ali bought her ticket to his cousins wedding (with the promise he would buy her ticket to her friend’s wedding) he ghosted and stonewalled her, she “poured her heart out to him on voicemail” and he never replied, she asked him to pay her back for her ticket and he got mad that she “made this about money”, 2 years later he told Ali that he freaked out because he really liked her and saw a future with her but knew she would never move to Buffalo and it would “never work”, Ali said at the time she would have considered moving for him, Ali used to have him blocked on Facebook and told all her friends not to update her on info about him (unless she asked). He’s now married and goes to Disney with his wife (which Ali kind of scoffs at?), Ali said on TikTok that she dodged a bullet
Baby Bic
Met him at Adults National years ago, had a flirtationship with him in 2016 when he was 19 years old, ran into him at the Adults Nationals 2021, last texts she got from him were about getting his fake ID taken away at the bar and him visiting her in NYC but Ali didn’t want to buy him beer and drink at her apartment
The Chef
Matched on Tinder around 2016, he loved karaoke, “total shit”, asked Ali to be his girlfriend and to meet his mom after a month, off and on dating, broke up the first time because he was talking to his ex, lied and flew to Mexico to see his ex while dating Ali, that ex sent Ali a Snapchat of them in bed together on that Mexico trip, Ali broke up with him via text and called him a shitty boyfriend, he’s the reason Ali deleted her Snapchat because of drunk Snaps he would send post break up, FB messaged Ali 6 years later (while Roark was visiting/staying with Ali) and said sorry for being a shit head. Ali’s best friends hated him
The Dentist
Met on Halloween in the wild, Canadian, dated NYE 2016- May 2017 “nice guy, not my guy”, one of Ali’s best friend’s favorite ex “he adored you, “he was too sweet for me” and “he had no edge to him”, he painted Ali’s cat for her 30th birthday but she was annoyed it was just Rory and not both cats, The Chef texted Ali while on a date/sleeping at his house
ASV - Aspiring Sober Vegan
Met through a friend (her best guy friend’s college roommate) the day before she had to fly out to her dad’s memorial, a doctor, into meditation, remembered him “being cuter” when they went on a first date, felt “the spark”, had “omg this is awesome sex”, Ali described this relationship as a “slow burn” and “the most attracted she ever been to a partner” even thought she didn’t think he was that cute in the beginning, dated 2-3 months before he tried to ghost Ali but they talked and broke up, four months later they start casually dating/FWB because he’s moving but this turns into a ‘middle distance relationship’ and he moves to Philly, had a lot of communication issues but didn't have a lot of fights, wants to live in Ohio and give a % of his income to charity, Ali was close to saying ‘I love you’ but didn’t, he uninvited her to meet his extended family and they got in a fight, broke up with her a couple weeks before their 6 month anniversary at the park while on a picnic and told her that she’s still his favorite person, Ali used to think he was “the one that got away” and would frequently have dreams about him. From what Ali knows, he's sober but not vegan
The Scientist
2017 or 2018ish, from San Diego, went on one date, Ali ended up ghosting him due to the decline in her dad’s health, saw him on Hinge while she was in San Diego for 3 months in 2020, texted him and apologized for ghosting him, ended up going on 2-3 more dates, took a selfie in front of his house and sent it to him but acted like she didn’t know that was his house and made a TikTok about it, things ended up not working but she doesn’t make it clear on who ended it. She can now see she shouldn’t have been going on dates during this time when her dad was sick.
Good on Paper Divorced Dude
Met a couple of years ago (she told this story on TikTok in 2020) on Bumble
The Groomsman
Met at her friend Ashley’s wedding in Chicago Oct 2019, had a “two night stand” with him, texted/talked/FT’d for 3-4 months, divorced, never dated seriously/FWB, saw each other a couple time when he came to NYC, Ali stopped talking with him due to FMH and her trying to find a serious relationship, he starts dating someone, follows FMH on insta, slid into her DM in 2022 and then sent her soup while she was sick, turns out he’s single again, 2 months later Ali is heading to Chicago and texts him “Hello! Reminder that my arrival to your neck of the woods is imminent” and turns out he is now seeing someone and Ali doesn’t see him while in Chicago (at least she doesn’t mention it)
Unnicknamed person
He was her plus one at her best friend from college’s NYE wedding 2019/2020, met and hung out with Ali’s mom, posted photos of them together on her personal Insta story, “fully dating but weren’t official hehe” doesn’t have a nickname/never gave him a nickname? This could be The Latvian/the person she texted her friend in DC about saying “I think I’m on a date with my husband”

Starts FMH on January 2020 on Instagram/TikTok

The Traveler
He was browsing Bumble while Ali was in the bathroom during their first date, he was banned from Bumble and was using his grandma phone number. Ali turned down a second date
The Duke
Early FMH, went for long periods of time in between texts, 7-8 Zoom dates while Ali was in San Diego and he was in NY, Ali said you could see three of his ex’s on his instagram page (without scrolling), they finally went on one date and it was “meh” but they did kiss on their date
The Oyster
Matched on Bumble (he had one photo and no bio) two weeks before Valentines Day, Gemini, a lawyer, part of the 13 First Dates in 30 Days series (he was #13), dated Feb 2020-Aug 2020, love bomber, felt “the spark” and became official after 3 dates, best first date ever??? at the time, said “I love you” to Ali after two weeks, “For most of my relationship with The Oyster, he didn’t live in the city he had moved to Connecticut without telling me”, would fight all the time, opposite political views, Ali felt like a “fucking summer camp director” because she planned all their dates and he would get upset if Ali didn't have a plan, sought out a therapist (Megan) because of her relationship struggles because of him, went to Mass/church, he wanted a traditional marriage/life/wife/kids (at one point had Ali thinking she wanted that), didn’t want to live in NYC, didn’t support BLM, Cindy hated him
The Pilot
Went on 3 dates, texted a lot, didn’t hear back from him in four days and when she said she was looking to date someone who showed more consistency, he replied saying he met someone the day after their last date who seems to have more free time than Ali and he wants to pursue that but would like to be friends, Ali said on TikTok that this other women “bent her schedule to his schedule” and she was unwilling to do that. Mostly talked about him on TikTok
The Analyst
Matched on Bumble two years ago and went on one date, re matched in 2021 and he stood Ali up, she send him a text “getting stood up” script and he never replied. Only mentioned him on TikTok (?)

Ali and Roark start FMH: The Podcast February 2021

The Boomerang
First date on the pod? I couldn't find anything else about him
The Scuba Diver
The Music Man
One date, “he didn’t do anything wrong, he’s just not for me”, amped up small talk, complimented Ali a lot which made her feel awkward cause she wasn’t feeling it, he texted her and asked for a second date and Ali sent the no ghosting script
The Bet
Uses the phrase “ok bet”, 28 years old shoe designer, only went on one dinner date to a spot he picked, turns out its cash only and he didn’t bring cash, was not into him , not looking for the same thing
The Dinosaur
Nickname was previously The Hawaiian, first date at Dinosaur BBQ, stood in a parking spot to save for Ali, he asked for a kiss after their date and Ali declined saying maybe next time
The Rose
He sent her a rose on hinge, first date was an hour long walk in the park while drinking beer
The Comic
Matched on Hinge, older than Ali (Ali’s friends express how happy they were to hear that), had brunch on their first date (was the first part of a double header but the second guy canceled), listed as “moderate” politically on Hinge, good and easy convo, went back and forth twice over text and then never heard back from him, “technically not ghosting...”
The Camper
Met in the wild at a volleyball tournament in July, lives in Chicago, 27 years old, hung out the whole time, over heard Ali asking someone to get her a make out partner, gave Ali his number, drunkly ask him for a FT date in the future and he didn’t reply, Ali texts him again about a volleyball thing and he replied back with not a lot of enthusiasm, Ali is going to Chicago in Sept for a volleyball tournament and she’s already planning on playing 4-on-4 with her best friend vs. his roommate and maybe The Camper, he texts her saying he has to work on the date of the tournament and won’t be able to do the 4-on-4 game, “I feel like I got broken up with someone I never want to date in the first place”

Ali’s Matchmaker contract starts in August 2021 - 6 matches

The Schmoozer
Went on a dinner date, was chatting up the waitress in a kind of creepy way, was bragging about a lot of things and it turned Ali off and Ali texted him her no ghosting script
The Accountant
1st matchmaker match, 31 years old, lives in BK, his dad has also passed away, easy to talk to, on the third date she wasn’t sure if she saw a future with him and in her gut doesn’t feel like this would be a slow burn, Ali breaks things off with him, months (?) later he sent Ali a 5 min long voice memo and they said they were both down to see each other as friends. He later on dated and ghosted Erica
The Aussie
Matched on Hinge, in politics, from Australia but lived all over the place, asked Ali what she’s looking for on the first date and he said he’s “casually looking for something serious”, Ali accidentally walks up to a different person on their second date, Ali texts him saying she would love to see him before he leaves on a trip and she wasn’t happy that it took him till the next day to reply and he can’t see her before he leaves
The Goalie
Was supposed to be Ali’s 2nd match, he’s a paying client, Ali didn’t hear back from him for a while when she told him where she lived, he wrote to the matchmaker saying that she lived too far away even though it states where she lives in her matchmaker profile
The Journalist
2nd matchmaker match, ended things because she was dating/pursuing things with The Discoball and paused her matchmakers matches

The Threepeat
Matched multiple times on dating apps but this recent time with Hinge, Amazon seller, first date was a pizza lunch date (with bubbles aka champagne) and he gave her a single yellow carnation, talked a lot about her “side hustles” aka her food blog, coaching, FMH and the pod (Ali didn’t mentioned the name on FMH), had an awkward half kiss during the date and then gave her a peck when they said goodbye, he had no night stands by his bed?, spent the night but told public pod they had a movie night, different kissing styles, 6 dates, broke things off with Ali two days before her first date with The Rower WHILE Ali was on a Halloween girls trip
The Rower
Dated from Halloween 2021 till early Feb 2022, Pisces who is 6 days older than Ali, has an ex-fiancé (they dated for 8 years, engaged for two of them, she broke off the engagement with him 1.5 years ago once he started dating Ali), has a shared dog with this ex, slept together around Xmas on the fourth date and Ali got a UTI, first time having “omg this is awesome sex” since ASV, first person Ali slept next to wearing an eye mask "that's a big step for me", had him watch 90 Day Fiancé, on New Years Day told her that he sees “long term relationship potential” with her but doesn’t want to be exclusive after 5 dates, “we didn’t talk all week”, he said he wasn’t as ready as he though to date someone seriously and “I don’t know why I don’t want to be in a relationship with you” they broke up over the phone, Ali said he’s a good human and wants to date someone like him, 3.5 weeks later Ali drunk texted him at 3:00 am saying “its really hard not to talk to you” which Ali said was a lie, he replied back (few days? A week later?) while Ali was on another date and it made her cry a bit, she replied back saying “the door is closed but not locked” in regards if he wants to get back together. “Fin… for now”

2022

The Discoball
Matched on Hinge but didn’t go on a first date for two week, Gemini, used to be a singer in a band, moved from DC to NYC, went on 7 dates in 2022, had a dog w/ ex and ex got full custody once he moved, met one of his friends on the second date, slept with him on the second date “morning and night”, he tried to find the podcast without knowing the name, podcasted from his house in DC, he would send Ali photos of them together “all the time”, gave a virtual presentation from his hotel room, did Molly together in DC, had him watch 90 Day Fiancé, moved to BK (didn’t see each other for 2 months pre-move), had a sex-less sleepover (a milestone for Ali), he showed up for her on her dad’s death date (something that a person she’s dating has never done), used to listen to the pod but stopped before they stopped seeing each other, ghosted her after they had a talk about moving things forward to exclusive and Ali texted him something along the lines of “your silence is the answer” when she didn’t hear back from him for a week and he ghosted her. Ali said he sucks in #77 AUA
Lisbon
The Brit
M&M
The Come Back Kid
They went on 2-3 dates in Nov 2018 and reconnected in May 2022, "felt immediately comfortable", sat next to a very drunk lady on their second 1st date and was supportive but "didn't step on Ali's toes" when the drunk lady said something offensive to Ali, couldn’t remember if they slept together or not, knows about FMH, ghosted Ali
The Trainer
The Cold Brew
The Nomad
3rd matchmaker match, reminded Ali of The Oyster, wanted kids and didn’t want to live in NYC forever, Ali was upset at first because her matchmaker was supposed to screen for that but the matchmaker DID check and it wasn’t mentioned when she was screening The Nomad, no second date because those are dealbreakers to him
The Catcher
Matched on Bumble, “good not great” after their first date, ~April 2022, talked about sports a lot on their first date
The Gentleman
4th matchmaker match, knew about Ali’s FMH socials before their date, Ali didn’t like his texting style, awkward intro on their first date “like hugging a 2 x 4”, he runs a dating event company and actually email Ali to be a guest on the pod when FMH first started, awkward goodbye, didn’t discuss the actual first date on the main pod because she doesn’t want to give him a reason to reach out again
The Tennis Pro
Ali had a good time on their date, “He is an adult, he’s mature” BUT “I don’t think he was into it”
The Padre
Matched on Bumble, 3 dates, from San Diego, “energy mismatch”, doesn’t want to know or listen to FMH, no psychical connection/kiss, only a kiss on the cheek on their last date, “I haven’t spoken to him since Friday night [a week]”, she didn’t want to do what The Threepeat did to her (break up while on vacation/traveling), she said it might be a MOO

Roark leaves and Erica joins the pod Oct 31st 2022

Captain Kirk
5th matchmaker match, found him on Bumble before their in-person date, ghosted Ali AND the matchmaker???
6th matchmaker match
Last match and Ali states she will not talk about this date or anything about it
JFK Kirk?
Matched on Bumble, didn’t realize he’s located in SD, exchanged personal instagram info, not sure where things went or how things ended

Kirk #1
Met in the wild, make out a lot the night they met, “stealing kisses throughout the night”, exchanged numbers, planned a date (no specifics, just the day) but when Ali texted him day of he asked to reschedule (no specifics again), he replied back that he’s picking up a rental car, told him she’s looking for someone to respect her time and he never replied back

2023

The Falcon
First date of 2023, matched on The League, first nickname was “League Kirk”, hard to talk to, felt like Ali was always reaching for the next topic, likes to travel, “there wasn’t a vibe”, MOO
The Roommate
Used to be her friend’s roommate and have met before (Ali doesn’t remember but it was the day after that exclusive convo with The Rower), “totally cute”, reunited at their mutual friend’s engagement party January 2023, made out at the bar, comes back to her place and sleeps over (no sex), Ali questions why her friends never set them up and its because he was taking a break from dating, first date they made out a lot at the bar (again), “I really felt like we were already a couple”, “It didn’t feel like a first date”, mentions her FMH content has popped up on his FYP, tried texting him after their date and he wasn’t giving effort, she’s glad she didn’t sleep with him because “one night stands aren’t my thing”, MOO
The Belgian
Matched on Bumble, accidentally had their first date during a trivia night at a bar, easy to talk to
The Viking
Ali forgot they had a first date on the day of said date
Tinder Man
Matched on Tinder (duh) on Valentine’s Day, first Tinder date in three years, good convo on first date but got a pushy vibe from him at the second bar they went to, put his hand up her sweater and was kissing her in the bar, made Ali uncomfortable and she told him that after he asked her on a second date
The Historian
Matched on Bumble, good conversation on the first date with a wide range of topics like “urban planning and its impact on feminism”, he’s in grad school
The Georgian
Matched on Hinge, he asked if she was free on Friday and she said yes but didn’t hear back from him in two days and in that time she made plans for Friday, rescheduled for a Saturday afternoon date at a dive bar, ate on her way to her date “it would be next level rude to eat on the subway”, good first date, talked about places he wants to take her to
The Publicist
Matched on Tinder, lives in BK, Jewish, one year younger then Ali, good first date, invited him to the Chaotic Singles Party that night, came over to Ali's apartment (which Ali said was messy) before and he made her favorite cocktail for her, a couple of listeners met him at the CSP, goofy and silly convo mixed with deep and serious convos, second date was at the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens and a tasting menu dinner, he made a Resy reservation and Ali got an email saying she was added to it ”fuck receiving gifts, THAT’S my love language”, he's into words like Ali, he sneezed and Ali said "God bless you" but then corrected herself and said "gesundheit" and he leaned over and kissed her and said he loves that she cares about her words, he met her friends on the third date ”It felt so easy. It felt so comfortable”, her friends took “sneaky” picture and videos of them together which Ali said she loves a sneaky pic, took all their date recap videos on his phone, cooked Ali steak on their fourth date, "it's very comfortable", had him watch 90 Day Fiancé, Ali met two of his friends and some of his teammates he plays a rec sport with, had sex the day they took a trip outside of the city, Erica met him before their trip to Greece and I said “he’s dorky in a good way”, WhatsApp video chatted while in Greece and told her “see you in two days!” at the end of their call, said she felt less anxious about him compared to other relationships while on vacation, sent him a birthday present while she was in Greece, felt an energy shift coming back from vacation and didn’t hear back from him 3 days after she came home, Ali requested a call to talk about this distances she was feeling, ”I did the 12 date rule and it didn’t work!”, she said the distance help her see that they’re not compatible, went on a total of 9 dates. Ali talks about the “break up” on episode 123
Mr. Chaotic
Matched on Tinder but he saw Ali at the Chaotic Singles Party and Cassidy the host is there mutual friend, went to a brewery and played games on their first date (Ali said this was her favorite first dates in episode 147 where they recapped 2023), works in entertainment industry, very high energy, knows about FMH and he said she's entertaining to watch, splits his time between NYC and some unknown city, texted while she was in Greece, ”The man gives good texts”
Random Matchmaker Match
Withdrew his match to Ali because he found her FMH socials. Talked about on #71 AUA
Gone with the Wind
Matchmaker match, said some gross things about women in volleyball outfits on their first date, Ali told her matchmaker about this, ”I would describe him as misogynistic overall”, Ali was glad he did say those weird things so early on so she didn’t waste her time, the matchmaker flagged his account. This was around June 2023
The Rock
Ali knows him from an activity that they used to be involved with in the city (she's very vague about what this is) from 8 years ago, he had a very serious/long term GF when they met, follows her personal Insta, has never talked about him because he’s never been a “prospect”, summer 2023 they met up to catch up and found out that he’s now recently single but he’s moving out of NYC for work, Ali texts Cindy saying she thinks this is a date, Cindy said to tell him that you really want to kiss him, he ends up telling Ali “I really want to kiss you”, made out at the bar, Ali invited him back to her apartment and they had sex the night before Ali ended things with The Publicist, “one night stand vibes” but she said she was down to do it again, Patreon only and talked about on #75 AUA
The Tourist
Matched on Hinge, just moved to Brooklynn, went to a brewery in BK for their first date, Ali showed up to the date dripping in sweat, allergic to cats, he sent Ali a ‘no ghosting’ text the next morning
The Stout
Matched on Bumble, ”we had really great banter right away”, laughed the whole time on their first date, talked about going on a second date during their first date
Speed Racer
Matched on Bumble, drinks first date, axe throwing second date, made out after their second date, MOO, randomly texted Ali ~6 months later because he said one of Ali’s date recap videos about him popped up on his FYP (Ali and Erica think this is a lie), he thought Ali wasn’t into him, he claims he was doing all the work with texting even though there was only a few messages since they exchanged numbers after their second date
Billy Joel
Recently sober, Ali said she felt like they had several inside jokes before they met in person, ate pizza on her way to their first date, second date was getting coffee and going to the museum, they cooked dinner together for their third date at Ali’s apartment and they watched 90 Day Fiancé (he didn’t like it), he Googled how to clean a red wine stain when it spilled on her countertop, he asked if she wanted to have sex and she turned it down, the next day/the day before a 7am flight Ali booty called him and they had sex, she was drunk and said the sex wasn’t good/they stopped mid way, helped Ali pack for her flight, Ali said he’s at a crossroad and he doesn’t seem like a long term fit, Erica found a condom on the ground while cat sitting, Ali said she didn’t regret hooking up with him but wishes she hadn’t done it, MOO
Sales Cycle
30 seconds in and Ali said he was very boring, only really talked about his job, stared at Ali’s boobs, “might be a MOO”, texted her ‘merry christmas’

2024

Pie Guy/Dr. Laundry
Matched on The League, 34 years old, requested a nickname change from Pie Guy to Dr. Laundry, he had to cancel their second date because he got hit by a car, went on two dates, Ali sent him a pic of his subway stop saying something along the lines of “the stop isn’t looking as cute today” and turns out someone he dated with in that photo, were supposed to go on a third date the night she got back from a bachelorette party but he didn't answer her text when she said she landed, the next day he asked her how her trip was not acknowledging her previous text at all, Ali expressed her disappointment and he replied that he was tired last night, she said she would've been understanding if he said something then ghosted her
Andddd I stopped listening to the podcast around the Dr. Pie Laundry Guy but have stayed up to date with everything via this sub.
I have a huge interest in dating culture, human behavior and data similar to Ali and this little project of mine was really interesting once I got the framework of this list. I started this list once I found this sub in December 2023 and started re listening to the Patreon while working out (and lost 10 lbs ayeee) and writing down information in my notes app. I did my best to keep this list unbiased and just give facts and information that was said.
My own thoughts after making this list is that I'm very sad for Ali. I didn't realize the extent of her dating history. I think about my own dating history or even my friends who are in their 30's and dating and Ali's dating lore runs so deep. Is Ali unlucky with love? Did she pass on someone that could have been great for her? How has she had so many dates with little success in a long term partner or even going beyond 6-8 dates? Or is Skyline the person she has been waiting for? What's the pattern with all this dates/men? So many questions.
I truly do hope Ali finds her guy because I believe theres someone for everyone. Until then, I'll be hopping into this sub (cause y'all are too funny and give the best advice) and waiting for Ali to find Mr. Height.
Enjoy and I look forward to everyone thoughts! I'll keep my eye out for any edits that need to be made.
Bonus quotes:
“Longest relationship was a little under a year and a half. Haven’t made it past 6 months with anyone else” - AUA #7 11/27/21
“I spent the first 10+ years of my dating life being sort of perennially single” -1. The Actual First One episode 2/21/21
"I think my parent's story is the reason why I think that I can romantically get back together with an ex and it'll work out" -The Dave Glaser Podcast 4/5/21
“Almost every relationship I’ve ever been in, with a couple of exceptions, started as a situationship.” -21. The Undefined One 7/11/21
“All of my boyfriends have been white” -Ali’s BFF Special on Patreon 4/23/22
“You definitely need an older guy” -Cindy on Ali’s BFF Special on Patreon 4/23/22
“I’ve been on the dating apps since high school. Dating websites at the time” -Ali’s BFF Special on Patreon 4/23/22
“Who would be the perfect man for Ali?”
“Clearly a combination of the The Dentist and [the early stages of] The Buffalo” -Cindy on Ali’s BFF Special on Patreon 4/23/22
“Do you consider The Rower or Disco ball to have been situationships?”
“No, I don't consider either The Rower or The Disco Ball to be situationships” -question asked on TikTok 11/9/22

To quote Chris's great 5 year anniversary post,
"Five years ago, the grand maester ValyrianMycellium founded a place called /WesterosPowers. WP was wild and unruly. There were few rules and chaos ran wild. God Emperors worshipping fiery gods threatened the realm, Wildlings traveled to Dorne, striking further South than they ever had, and invisible armies wreaked havoc. Eventually the lords of WP grew discontent with the lawlessness of the kingdom and with that a new age was born."
Now it's ten years later, and I (King Illyion Netris of Norvos) and Sketchy (God Emperor R'hllor) have decided to run a temporary reboot of the original game for fun and nostalgia purposes.
For those who don't participate the first time around, it's important to emphasize the chaotic and loose spirit of the original game. It was very much a game that was being created and negotiated while it was being played. But somehow, out of the chaos and the noise that only lasted about a month, emerged a tradition of roleplaying that has no equivalent anywhere else on the internet(as far as I know at least). That tradition has managed to last 10 years. It's forged friendships, wasted time, created beautiful stories, broken and healed people's minds. Personally I can say if it weren't for Westerospowers and the games that followed, I would be a very different person (jury is still out on if that's a good thing or not).

Rules/Guidelines For Play

1. Keep it fun and lighthearted. Neither of us has the time or energy to handle substantial drama emerging from this thing.
   
2. Everything is on the sub. Did you know modmail was not present right from the start? All move orders, gold transfers, ravens, whatever, make it a post on the subreddit. For maximum authenticity, make everything an [Event], even if these days you'd call it [Lore] or [Raven] or whatever.
   
3. Be 'realistic', but not too realistic. Don't be dumb with it, but also don't police your fellow players too hard. As some guidelines, God Emperors, Wildlings in Dorne, etc. are encouraged, but laser guns are not.
   

Setting

This is a fun one. The setting is, wait for it..., Westeros. Other than that, it's a bit vague. It's sometime after the conquest, probably even after the Blackfyre rebellions, but who cares about the details. If someone wants to have Ned Stark, and another person wants to have Bloodraven, we all can coexist. The only thing is that we're 1 year after some sort of event which caused the complete collapse of the Iron Throne and most previous political structures. Now each region, possibly even some of the houses within them, are independent, with House Targaryen only retaining control over King's Landing and the Crownlands. This event is known as the collapse, and all years are dated AC (After Collapse).

Background: Me and my girlfriend are in a long-distance relationship, and we are really new to this and this 26th will be our 3-month anniversary and we have known each other for 5 months. She is a real fantasy type girl who has high (unrealistic) standards and expectations from her partner, which she openly accepts, but we both are in love. and she came in the relationship also thinking that I am the closest to her standards and that she can also mould me into the man that she desires. Additionally, I am a man who is ready to change. It is actually better. She wants me fit, better debater, better at everything than others, academic, etc. I myself wanted to this for so long and now I even have a motivation. But there has always been a problem since the very beginning.... she doesn't tell some stuff to me that she needs me to change such as like I used to LOOK at her in a different manner when she used to cry or sometimes, I used to cry too along with her. But she isn't going to tell me this kind of stuff because she needs it to be fixed "naturally". She says and I quote,
"Not everything can be shared. I know when I will share these things with you, you will definitely fix them, but then it won't feel real because I told you so. I have always wanted 'real' from the very beginning. I want that it should come to you naturally. If you are doing something even though it hurts me but it's a part of your personality. I can't say anything. I am sorry."
So, this is the situation of "I want you to want to do that...". She has always said she will embrace me no matter what. But she has also said that I will leave you if you constantly hurt me! So, I feel if I don't change, she eventually won't be able to embrace me and will leave me. Or else, she will eventually lose feelings.
I am currently at my worst phase in my life, and I know it's going to get worse. She is a sensitive girl yet a really good communicator and understands everything. But this is the only thing that is something I feel disturbed with. This is eating up my mind. She will embrace my non-perfect self yet wants me to naturally mould myself into my perfect form or else I THINK that she will leave me....
I am needing advice on whether I should confront her about whether she would really leave me if i am unable to change or that this isn't how it's supposed to work or should I just stick with "Ya sure Ill do that" because I have always been like that. Or am I wrong here and I should oblige? I have no clue and am really new to this. I don't want to hurt her at all. Iloveher. So, I need to approach with real caution! Help me out here guys, please!

Background: Me and my girlfriend are in a long-distance relationship, and we are really new to this and this 26th will be our 3-month anniversary and we have known each other for 5 months. She is a real fantasy type girl who has high (unrealistic) standards and expectations from her partner, which she openly accepts, but we both are in love. and she came in the relationship also thinking that I am the closest to her standards and that she can also mould me into the man that she desires. Additionally, I am a man who is ready to change. It is actually better. She wants me fit, better debater, better at everything than others, academic, etc. I myself wanted to this for so long and now I even have a motivation. But there has always been a problem since the very beginning.... she doesn't tell some stuff to me that she needs me to change such as like I used to LOOK at her in a different manner when she used to cry or sometimes, I used to cry too along with her. But she isn't going to tell me this kind of stuff because she needs it to be fixed "naturally". She says and I quote,
"Not everything can be shared. I know when I will share these things with you, you will definitely fix them, but then it won't feel real because I told you so. I have always wanted 'real' from the very beginning. I want that it should come to you naturally. If you are doing something even though it hurts me but it's a part of your personality. I can't say anything. I am sorry."
So, this is the situation of "I want you to want to do that...". She has always said she will embrace me no matter what. But she has also said that I will leave you if you constantly hurt me! So, I feel if I don't change, she eventually won't be able to embrace me and will leave me. Or else, she will eventually lose feelings.
I am currently at my worst phase in my life, and I know it's going to get worse. She is a sensitive girl yet a really good communicator and understands everything. But this is the only thing that is something I feel disturbed with. This is eating up my mind. She will embrace my non-perfect self yet wants me to naturally mould myself into my perfect form or else I THINK that she will leave me....
I am needing advice on whether I should confront her about whether she would really leave me if i am unable to change or that this isn't how it's supposed to work or should I just stick with "Ya sure Ill do that" because I have always been like that. Or am I wrong here and I should oblige? I have no clue and am really new to this. I don't want to hurt her at all. Iloveher. So, I need to approach with real caution! Help me out here guys, please!

I am not the OOP. The OOP is u/brotherconflict posting in AmItheAsshole and his user account
Ongoing as per OOP
2 updates - Long
Original - 31st May 2023
Update1 - 11th June 2023
Update2 - 31st Oct0ber 2023
​
WIBTA if I skipped my sister's wedding?
​
Throwaway account + fake names.
I (23m) am one of seven kids. There's Lydia (31f), Josh (28m), Leo (25m), me, then Erin (21f), Nadia (18f), and the surprise child Lexie (4f). With that many siblings, it's easy to get lost in the crowd. Some of us have our 'positions,' so to speak. Lydia's the oldest, Lexie's the baby, I have a kid (yes, that's my descriptor. OP: gave us a grandchild). Erin is the golden child. She was the last planned child, the one supposed to tie up our family. She was born premature so I understand that my parents coddled her to an extent, but it's more than that now.
Erin's getting married and recently told us that she's brought the date forward due to a cancellation. No big deal, it just means they're getting married sooner. But the new date lands on the date of Nadia's HS graduation. Erin was sympathetic, but said she's already committed to the date, they've printed the invitations. My parents normally go overboard on our HS grads, but they said that they'd just have to miss Nadia's. We were all sympathetic, but it wasn't intentional.
Or so I thought. But Nadia later told me and Leo that she was there when Erin got the call about the cancellation and told Erin that she was graduating that day, but Erin just laughed and accepted the date anyway. This, as much as I hate to admit it, sounds like a very Erin thing to do. She booked her engagement part for the night of Nadia's 18th birthday (luckily, she wasn't celebrating until the weekend). She announced her engagement at my oldest sister's wedding anniversary. Everything is about her.
I confronted Erin about this, and she said that Nadia's HS graduation didn't matter. She wanted to get married to the love of her life sooner—and our family had been to plenty of HS graduations at this point, anyway. She said something like, "we still have Lexie." But here's what gets me the most: Nadia's been looking forward to this for so long. She's watched all of us graduate and have these huge celebrations thrown by our parents. I asked Nadia what she wanted, and she said she wanted to have her day.
So, I told my family that me and Nadia won't be attending the wedding. Leo has also dropped out. Everyone's angry. Erin's furious, and I didn't make it better by telling her that I could watch our other siblings get married, since it's all the same in her eyes. Mom's trying to convince me to come to the wedding because 'graduation isn't as important' but I feel like if I don't do this then it sets a precedent in Nadia's life that she's always going to mean less than Erin. I've had messages calling me an asshole, an idiot, etc. They're telling me to step up and be a good brother, but that's what I'm doing. My son is supposed to be ring bearer but with how my family is reacting, I'm considering pulling him out of the wedding, too. My dad's told Nadia he'll take her to dinner after the wedding. Nadia's currently staying with me because mom won't stop cornering her.
AITA?
​
Comments
​
Comfortable-Sea-2454
NTA - Erin tried to make her little sisters graduation all about her and you are being a good big brother and standing up for Nadia. Also, I am extra petty, but I would pull your son out of the wedding in Solidarity for Nadia.
BTW "I could watch our other siblings get married, since it's all the same in her eyes" Boom!!!
​
[deleted]
The last part was golden. It always good when you use the selfish’ peoples own logic against them.
NTA OP, pull out your son, if you want to be even more petty, make him some kind of bearer for Nadia’s graduation. Continue being a good brother
​
Not-Mom15
He could be Nadia's cap-bearer and make sure her tassel is in the proper place and unknotted all the way. Make a whole ceremony of making sure auntie's completely ready to walk for her diploma and it'd be the cutest thing ever, especially if he and OP are both dressed in formal clothes.
​
Update - 11 days later
​
It's two days after D-Day and I finally come bearing an update! I've had to condense it quite a bit because a lot has happened. Before I start, Nadia wanted me to thank everyone who congratulated her on her graduation. She was overwhelmed by the support you all gave her, especially after she faced such opposition from our family.
So, let's start. Last Friday, Leo and I went to speak to our parents and Erin. I wanted to tell them that I'd be pulling my son from the wedding. Our older siblings ended up turning up as well, so it was us four standing up for Nadia. Leo had spoken to them the night before, and helped them see things more clearly from Nadia's eyes. Apparently, it didn't sink in with them that Erin chose the date intentionally.
There was a lot of yelling. Erin accused me of trying to sabotage her wedding, our parents tried to convince me to let them take my son to the wedding, but I stood my ground. I felt a lot stronger with my older siblings with me. There's only two years between me and Erin after all, I'm not much of an older brother.
Luckily, Lydia was there. Her words carry more weight as the eldest and she didn't give Erin or my parents room to argue as she told them that Erin chose the date intentionally, admitted as much in front of me and Leo, and that this was normal behaviour for her. Lydia told them that if they continued to favor Erin so blatantly, the rest of us would go no-contact—and Lexie would likely follow in the future.
Our dad started yelling. Not at us, but at Erin, surprisingly. I've never seen him so angry before, and to see it directed at Erin was... shocking. Our mom asked us to leave. We didn't hear from anyone on that side until Monday when Erin's fiancé George asked to meet us at our parents'. He apologised to Nadia. He didn't know that the wedding and graduation overlapped, nor did he know that it was something Erin did on purpose. Our dad was the one to tell him.
What followed was a long talk between us, during which we all aired our grievances. I told our parents that we all felt that they valued Erin more. That none of us mattered to them compared to her. Her artwork always went up on the fridge, ours always went in the drawer. I told them that, as a parent, I could never imagine treating my child like that.
Erin tried to argue. She tried to tell us that we were trying to turn her into a bad guy, trying to turn our parents against her, trying to sabotage her wedding. Our mom told her to be quiet, that it was our time to talk. George stepped in to tell us that he didn't expect us to attend the wedding, but we were welcome to attend the reception. He went so far as to say that he wished he could have cancelled the wedding altogether, but it'd only cost him more money that he'd spent by bringing it forward.
Mom's willingness to hear us out lasted less than 24 hours. By Tuesday, she was begging us to reconsider. Apparently our feelings meant nothing in the face of Erin's dire stress and the fact that people would be questioning our absence on the big day. I haven't spoken to my mom since, but I did ask my dad to bring my some of Nadia's things because she is going to be staying with me full-time.
We have officially gone no-contact with our mother.
Dad took Nadia out for an early-graduation celebration on Wednesday. They had a daddy-daughter date that I think she really needed. He apologised for a lot of things and told her he wanted to do the same with the rest of us. But Wednesday was about her. I'm happy she got that one-on-one time with him. She was happy coming home to me. In our sibling group chat, she said that she really thinks dad is going to try to mend bridges with us, even if mom won't.
Dad also turned up early yesterday morning (I'm talking... 6.30 a.m.) to give Nadia flowers. He told her that he was proud of her. George even called while he was getting ready for his big day to congratulate Nadia, which I really appreciated.
We didn't hear from mom or Erin. Our paternal grandma ended up coming to the graduation with us.
It was a great day. Like, a really great day. We didn't think about the wedding, didn't think about Erin. We just had fun together. My son got to wear his aunt's cap and gown and nearly drowned in the fabric. Our grandma tried on the cap, too. We took photos and sent them to our dad, who posted them in a Facebook post he wrote to congratulate both Erin on her wedding and Nadia on her graduation and we laughed about how it must have pissed off our newly wedded sister. We went out for dinner and we, as siblings, gifted Nadia money for a week away with her best friend, which somebody suggested in a comment on the initial post.
I texted George my congratulations. Despite everything, I do hope he and Erin are happy together. While she might not love us, I don't doubt that Erin loves him. Yes, she wants her spotlight and her moment, but I don't think she's marrying him just for that. Bringing the wedding forward? Sure, that's a hugely malicious tactic to bring herself more attention. Marrying him for the sake of having a wedding? She isn't that type of narcissist.
As of right now, I plan on staying no-contact with my mom unless she makes some big changes. This is a sentiment shared not only by the majority of my siblings, but is also encouraged by our dad and grandma. She's tried reaching out to me and my partner, mostly berating us for not attending the wedding and accusing us of planning to keep her grandchild away from her.
At the moment, our summer looks busy! We're planning on filling it with as many family outings as possible before Nadia leaves for college. We've also got Josh's 29th birthday to plan! Our dad's even joining in! This might cause a bigger rift between him and mom, but for now, at least, it looks like we're his priority. Lydia's threat really did something to him.
Thanks everyone who left comments on the original post! I know they really cheered Nadia up when she was worrying about whether or not she was doing the right thing by choosing herself. Part of me wishes we could've taken this stand earlier, but it took us a while to find our voices. Looking into the future, I do see two empty spaces at my own wedding, but I also see five siblings cheering my on. I'm happy with that.
​
Comments
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notanyonessunshine
Yes! Congratulations not only to Nadia but to all of you! I'm really happy with the update. Gosh! Your son would be so adorable got drowned by his aunt's cap lol I really hope Nadia will enjoy the rest of her summer before college starts. Maybe she'll have more daddy-daughter dates with your dad. Best of luck to Nadia, OP and your other siblings! I imagine Josh's 29th birthday will be a good one p/s: maybe I should start planning for my 29th too 😉 August is not too far away any more

OOP: Dad's currently filling his calendar with one-on-one days with all of us! I think Lydia's next up on his list. She definitely deserves it! My son did look adorable, but I may be biased there! Haha, Josh's birthday is at the very end of July, so we've got time yet. It's surprisingly less stressful without our mom's involvement. Who would've thought?

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Crazybutnotlazy1983
This will be the first major event since the wedding and her siding with Erin. If she and Erin do not come around do not include them. I see total "payback" from both of them.

OOP: Where we're at currently, we have no plans to involve them regardless. Josh has even asked dad not to tell them about any plans we make, and Dad has agreed. I hate that he's in the middle like this, but as long as he wants a relationship with all of his children, the middle is where he's going to have to be. Erin's supposed to leave for her honeymoon in the next few days, so I'm interested to see what Mom will fare now that none of her back-up children are speaking to her (aside from Lexie, of course)

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Ok-Cantaloupe-424
Has Erin lived at home all this time? It will be interesting to see how your mother reacts with "Erin the Perfect" gone on her honeymoon. You might have to update us!!

OOP: Erin moved out about a year ago, but I know she visits our parents a lot. I think they live pretty close (I have never been to Erin's place nor will I ever willingly go there).

​
Update - 5 months later
​
It's been about 5 months since I've last posted, and I've had some requests for an update, so I figured I'd sit down and write one up. Bare in mind, a lot can happen in 5 months, and that's definitely true for this!
Let me start off with July. Erin and George went on their Honeymoon, and their absence sent our Mom into a frenzy. She wasn't used to having no one around; someone was always visiting. Mostly Erin, but the rest of us would visit out of obligation and to see Nadia and Lexie. With Erin on her Honeymoon and the rest of us NC, Mom had no visitors and she really didn't like that. Literally the DAY after Erin left, we started getting bombarded with phone calls. She tried convincing Nadia first, which Lydia thought was a strategic move because Nadia is the more timid of all of us and, thus, more likely to be persuaded. When Nadia turned her down, she turned her sights on the rest of us. We all got identical phone calls with her trying to persuade us to go visit her, to understand her, to see things from Erin's perspective. She even brought up the circumstances of Erin's premature birth and how it was a miracle that she was even here. Josh told her to 'do better with Lexie.' Lydia blocked her number.
When the phone calls didn't work, she started turning up at our homes. She continued spewing much of the same shit she had over the phone and before the wedding. She didn't understand what she'd done so wrong, why we were treating her like this. She called me ungrateful and disrespectful. She accused us of harbouring 'unnecessary jealousy' towards Erin and that she loved us all equally. I didn't respond to these comments. I was just trying to prevent her from going inside and saying the same things to Nadia, who was with my partner and son in the living room. Her comments didn't deserve a response, and when she was done I asked her to leave as calmly as I could, but truthfully, I felt a little like crying. But who wouldn't feel shitty with their mom yelling in their face like that, trying to downplay years of pain and calling it 'unnecessary jealousy?'
My siblings and I have been let down time and time again by her and our dad ever since Erin was born. They missed out on so many things over the years, both big and small. But we had one thing. One thing. One thing that they never missed and we were happy with just that one thing, and that was our HS Graduations, but they couldn't give that to Nadia. All we had were our HS Graduations. They missed Josh's college graduation because Erin broke her leg. It was an accident, I get that, but they never made it up to him. They never celebrated this huge achievement afterwards, and he just had to grin and bear it. Our Mom didn't turn up to my partner's babysitter after making such a huge fuss about it because Erin didn't want to go and wanted them to get their nails done together instead.
​
But our jealousy is unnecessary?
Sorry.
I don't know how I managed to stay calm when she was yelling at me, but I did. Asking her to leave made her switch tactics though, and she started calling out for my son, trying to coax him to go to her and telling me that she had a right to see her grandson. My partner stepped in then, because she was seething, and took my place at the door. Mom yelled some more but she left when my partner threatened to call the cops.
Mom repeated this song and dance with my older siblings but similarly got nowhere with them.
Then came the Facebook posts. Indirect rants about ungrateful people and how shocking it is that 'some kids' could turn against their parents so easily. Erin somehow got involved while on her honeymoon and called Lydia to scold her for being mean to our mom. But as I've said before, Lydia is angry and she's had enough. Whatever she said to Erin prevented her from calling the rest of us.
There was then a Facebook post about how much it hurt to be kept from a grandchild. Now, there were no names mentioned, but there is only one grandchild and that is my son. My mom's sister called me. There was yelling. I blocked the number.
I know Dad was trying to convince our Mom to just... leave us alone. He kept apologizing because she just wasn't listening to him.
Erin came home after two weeks. She tried reaching out to Lydia again, asking for us all to talk because, and this is a quote from Lydia, 'clearly you (we) all have some issues to work out.' We did not turn up. Erin was very angry at that because she's not used to us turning up for her.
July wasn't all bad though. While our Mom was on a rampage, our Dad was still trying to do better by us. And he's improved a lot! In July, he and I went out for a meal together, just the two of us, and grabbed a drink, and he apologized. It wasn't a generic apology that he could've repeated to all of us, about how he's sorry that he hurt us and neglecting us, but he brought up specific instances that he wanted to apologize for. He thought back on all those years and picked out moments that he wanted to apologize to me for. I know he did the same for the others, but having him apologize for things like cancelling a fishing trip because Erin 'needed him' was something I wasn't expecting.
And I never really cared for fishing, but I wanted to go on that trip because I always saw it on TV, you know? I'd always see a dad and son fishing together and I wanted to have that. I wanted dad to prove that I was a priority to him somewhere deep down. It didn't happen, and I never asked again.
But we went fishing in July. What started as a trip between the two of us soon grew into a family day out when my siblings expressed an interest in going fishing, too. My brothers first, then Nadia, and even Lydia who hates the smell of fish. Dad brought Lexie and I brought my son, and it was great. It was one of the best days of my life. I suck at fishing, but I'm pretty great at collecting seashells. It was brilliant.
Our parents did end up arguing when Dad went home. I wasn't there, so I don't know every little detail, but from what Dad told me, the argument was mostly because Mom didn't understand why we were still in contact with him and not her. She found it insulting that we were repairing our relationship with him. She was angry that Dad wasn't pushing us to forgive her, or why he wasn't stopping us from 'acting out.' She was angry that he didn't extend an invitation to her and Erin for the fishing trip, and she was even angrier when he explained that their presence would make us uncomfortable.
Josh turned 29 and the end of July. We booked an escape room for the five of us siblings, then we met our dad and partners for dinner that evening. Josh introduced us to his new partner for the first time. All of our attention was on Josh, the day was completely about him, which was a first for our family. Then there was a party thrown for him by his friends which I came out of with a massive hangover.
Mom started giving us the silent treatment in the middle of August. Dad moved out in September. While we were getting the silent treatment, Dad was baring the brunt of her anger and it really took it out of him. He was trying to do better by us and she was trying to villainise us, and he ultimately told her that if she didn't take accountability for her actions soon, then he'd be contacting a lawyer. Mom didn't take him seriously. He's been staying in Lydia's guest room since.
Mom doubled down and said that he was blind for not seeing how we were manipulating him. Unlike the rest of us, Dad obviously still has regular contact with Erin—and according to him, she's even told Mom to reconsider. Unsurprisingly, Erin's involvement is what got Mom to relent. I'm not sure if she's thinking about how she's treated us, or if she's silently stewing. I know she asked Dad if he's going to move back home but he said that it was better for them to have space right now. Personally, I'm struggling to see an outcome where our Mom sincerely admits that she was in the wrong. I think she'll say it just to get Dad back home and the rest of us talking to her again. I don't think she'll ever hold us to the same level as Erin.
In brighter news, there's officially less than a year left until my own wedding. Currently, there is no place for my mom or Erin. My partner Jade and I are having our fathers wear ties that match me and my groomsmen, something I originally didn't plan to do, but I'm happy with the change. Nadia's settled in at college. She's made some new friends with kids in her classes, and she's enjoying. She's happy. Even though we have an active group chat, she facetimes me every few days just to talk. Most of what she says I've already read in the gc, but I'm always willing to listen to her stories again. Nadia never used to talk this much. She looks a lot happier now than she did five months ago.
I think that's everything. I'm sorry for the novel, but like I said, a lot can happen in five months.
​
Comments from about 3 months ago(4 months after the last post)
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greenlightgaslight
Time for another update

OOP: I do plan on sitting down to write an update soon! A lot has happened over the last four months, both good and bad, that I wanted to let those of you cheering our family on know about!

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I am not the OOP. Please do not harass the OOP. Please remember the No Brigading Rule and to be civil in the comments

Date: 05/16/2024

Reading time: 14 minutes, 2817 words

🪖 Military

Chamber of Deputies of Luxembourg unanimously adopts motion expressing support for Armenia

The Chamber of Deputies of Luxembourg unanimously adopted a motion expressing support for Armenia. The motion condemns the forced exodus of more than 100,000 Armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh as a result of Azerbaijan's military operation. It calls for the immediate release of Armenian PoWs by Azerbaijan.

Armenpress, Luxembourg lawmakers urge government to act for implementation of ICJ orders by Azerbaijan

Russia expels U.K. defense attache in tit-for-tat move

Russia has expelled Britain’s defense attache in a tit-for-tat response to the expulsion of one of its own diplomats from London last week. A. T. Coghill must leave the territory of the Russian Federation within a week.

Armenpress

Ruben Vardanyan's detention period was extended for another 5 months

Vardanyan was arrested on September 27, 2023, at the Azerbaijani checkpoint of Hakari Bridge. He was charged with three counts: financing terrorism, creating and participating in armed units and/or groups. Azerbaijan confirms presence of about 23 Armenian prisoners.

CivilNet, Azerbaijan extends Rune Vardanyan’s arrest by 5 months

Training sessions will be held from June 11 to August 30

From June 11 to August 30, training camps of reservists will be held in Armenia. Up to 5,151 citizens will be involved in the training sessions, of which 4,647 are rank-and-file and junior non-commissioned officers. It is planned to provide 45 units of road construction equipment.

CivilNet

🏛️ Politics & Government

An opposition figure was killed in Azerbaijan

Natig Mehdi, a member of the opposition Musavat party of Azerbaijan, was killed in Baku. Mehdi's disappearance was reported by his nephew on May 9, and his death was announced on May 14. His colleague Elsevar Islamov is accused of the murder. Islamov worked as a security guard at a Baku school, and Islamov was the school's deputy financial director.

CivilNet

Zelenskiy visits Kharkiv describing the situation there as “extremely difficult”

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskiy travelled to the northeastern Ukrainian city of Kharkiv on Thursday. He described the battlefield situation in the region as "extremely difficult" but under control. Zelenkiy postponed all his foreign trips on Wednesday as the situation deteriorated. Russia says it has taken control of 12 villages since it launched its attack.

Armenpress

Red Cross visits Armenian captives held in Azerbaijan

International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) representatives visited Armenian detainees in Azerbaijan. Among those detainees are representatives of the former military and political leadership of Nagorno-Karabakh. Baku officially confirms capture of 23 Armenians, 17 of whom ended up in Baku after Azerbaijan's military aggression last September.

Armenpress

France accuses Azerbaijan of interference in New Caledonia riots

France accuses Azerbaijan of ‘interference’ in politics of its Pacific territory of New Caledonia, which has seen deadly riots in recent days. Azerbaijan swiftly denies the charge, adding to a growing number of tensions between France and the hydrocarbon-rich Caspian Sea state. The riots were sparked by moves to agree a new voting law that supporters of independence say discriminates against the indigenous Kanak population.

ArmRadio

No new Armenia-Azerbaijan border created, the border existing at time of USSR collapse being reproduced – PM’s Office

No new border is being created between Armenia and Azerbaijan; rather, the existing de jure border at the time of the USSR’s dissolution is being reproduced. The border description is exactly as presented on the 1976 map.

ArmRadio

Armenia border residents dissatisfied with delimitation

Residents Kirants are dissatisfied with the results of the delimitation of the border between Armenia and Azerbaijan.

PanArmenian

Deputy Foreign Minister Paruyr Hovhannisyan receives EU Delegation

Deputy Foreign Minister Paruyr Hovhannisyan received the delegation led by Adrien Kirali, Director of Neighbourhood East and Institution Building of the European Commission. Interlocutors highly appreciated the Joint EU-US-Armenia high-level meeting held on April 5, 2024 in Brussels.

Armenpress, Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan meets with EU Trade Commissioner

Armenian, Jordanian Foreign Ministers express concerns over tense situation in the Armenian quarter of Jerusalem

Political consultations between the Ministries of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Armenia and The Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan were held in Yerevan. The parties commended the current high level of political dialogue between Armenia and Jordan. The interlocutors exchanged views on the prospects of developing cooperation between the two countries.

Armenpress

Armenian Foreign Minister, PACE President exchange ideas on regional issues

The Minister of Foreign Affairs of Armenia Ararat Mirzoyan met with the President of the PACE Theodoros Rousopoulos in Strasbourg on May 16. The interlocutors exchanged views on the issues related to Armenia’s engagement in the Council of Europe.

Armenpress, Armenia involved in efforts to reopen regional communications: Mirzoyan

Prime Minister Pashinyan meets with World Bank and International Finance Corporation leadership

Nikol Pashinyan received the World Bank's Senior Managing Director Axel van Trotsenburg and International Finance Corporation (IFC) Regional Vice President Alfonso Garcia Mora. The progress of joint projects, as well as the potential for diversifying Armenia's economy, were discussed.

Armenpress

Speakers of the Parliaments of Armenia, Azerbaijan have brief conversation

Alen Simonyan and Sahiba Gafarova had a short conversation in Geneva. The main meeting of the speakers of the parliaments of the two countries is expected to take place in the evening.

Armenpress

Armenian Foreign Minister signs Oviedo Convention in Strasbourg

Minister of Foreign Affairs Ararat Mirzoyan signed Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Dignity of the Human Being with regard to the Application of Biology and Medicine (Oviedo Convention) Armenia is the 37th country to join the Convention.

Armenpress, Armenia signs Council of Europe’s Bioethics Convention

Government approves housing provision program for Nagorno-Karabakh displaced people

The government approved the housing provision program for forcibly displaced persons from Nagorno Karabakh. Minister of Labor and Social Affairs Narek Mkrtchyan presented the relevant project.

Armenpress, The housing problem of Artsakh residents will be solved in 3 stages, 2-5 million drams will be given. the government accepted the plan, Armenian government approves program to support refugees from Nagorno-Karabakh

Armenia to establish Embassy in Cyprus

Armenia will establish an embassy in the Republic of Cyprus, the residence in Nicosia. The project was included in the package of non-reportable issues at the May 16 session of the government. The justification for the project states that the two countries accept each other as traditionally friendly countries.

Armenpress, Armenia will have an embassy in Cyprus, Armenia to open embassy in Cyprus, Armenia will open an embassy in Cyprus, Armenia to open Embassy in Cyprus

Legal basis for border delimitation with Azerbaijan relies on the last maps of the USSR- Pashinyan

Pashinyan: It was fundamental for Armenia not to create new borders, but to reproduce the borders previously confirmed by the Alma-Ata Declaration. The last maps of the Soviet Union, de jure having legal significance, he said.

Armenpress, In the issue of border demarcation, Armenia has adopted the principle of "the border passes where it passes". Pashinyan, The border demarcation commissions of Armenia and Azerbaijan signed a protocol, Pashinyan on Armenia-Azerbaijan border delimitation agreement: ‘I think it’s major success’, Pashinyan commented on the agreement reached with Azerbaijan on the issue of border demarcation in Tavush

Armen Grigoryan and Bogdan Klich discussed regional and extra-regional developments

Secretary of the Security Council of the Republic of Armenia Armen Grigoryan received the Chairman of the Committee on Foreign Affairs of the Senate of Poland Bogdan Klich. The parties discussed the Armenia-Poland bilateral agenda. Ideas were exchanged on the possibilities of expanding cooperation in various fields, particularly focusing on promoting trade and economic relations.

Armenpress

World leaders should steer clear of Baku climate conference unless political prisoners are released

Hrair Balian: World leaders who stand for a rules-based international order must decline participation in the 2024 United Nations Climate Change Conference (COP29) in Baku unless 23 Armenian political prisoners jailed illegally in Azerbaijan are released. Balian says Azerbaijan is one of the most corrupt despotisms on the planet. Azerbaijan wants to turn the COP29 into a “Cop of peace”, urging countries participating in the summit to observe a ‘Cop truce”

CivilNet

State revenue committee chairman meets with WBcolleagues

Chairman of the State Revenue Committee Rustam Badasyan met with his colleagues from the World Bank. The meeting discussed the progress of programs implemented with the assistance of the Bank. An agreement was reached on possible areas for further cooperation.

Armenpress

Slovakia's prime minister not in life-threatening condition – deputy PM

Slovak PM Robert Fico is no longer in a life-threatening condition after being shot several times, deputy prime minister says. Fico's surgery had gone "well" and he was "not in a [life-threatening situation] at this moment", deputy PM Tomas Taraba says. Earlier the defence minister said the prime minister was "fighting for his life" after being gravely injured in an attack.

Armenpress, Slovakia PM Robert Fico no longer in life-threatening condition – deputy PM

Healthcare Ministry to receive additional 3 billion AMD to cover government-paid services

The Armenian government has decided to provide the country’s Healthcare Ministry with an additional amount of 3 billion drams to cover government-paid medical services for citizens. Half of this money will be spent on aid to low-income families, 400 million on emergency aid, 500 million on hemodialysis, 300 million on cancer treatment, 200 million on transplantation, and 100 million on treating infectious diseases.

ArkaAm

Yerevan Mayor visits Missak Manouchian’s tomb at French Pantheon

The official delegation led by Yerevan Mayor Tigran Avinyan visited the French Pantheon, where the remains of French national hero Misak Manouchian and his wife Meline are buried. The ceremony took place on February 21, on the occasion of the 80th anniversary of the execution of the executed soldiers.

ArmRadio

💵 Economy

EEU membership is beneficial for Armenia- Pankin

Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs of the Russian Federation Alexander Pankin said participation in the Eurasian Economic Union (EEU) is beneficial for Armenia. He said the growth of the Armenian economy and its involvement in the flows of commodity production cooperation is statistically confirmed by various indicators.

Armenpress

Granting market status to Armenia's economy discussed in USA

Armenian Economy Minister Gevorg Papoyan met with U.S. officials in Washington. Focus was on Armenia-US bilateral trade and granting Armenia the status of a market economy. In January-March 2024, the Armenian-American trade turnover amounted to more than $108.9 million (37.4% decrease compared to the first quarter of last year)

ArkaAm

''Learn & Work: YSU Expo- 2024'' launched at Yerevan State University

"Learn & Work: YSU Expo- 2024" has gathered applicants, students, graduates, university divisions, and employers under one roof. The Zangezur Copper Molybdenum Combine CJSC has joined the Expo with great pleasure. The mining industry is one of the most important branches of Armenia's economy.

Armenpress

Byblos Bank Armenia celebrates Students' Day with scholarship recipients

Yerevan State University students who received scholarships from Byblos Bank Armenia gathered to meet with the Bank's CEO, Hayk Stepanyan. The Bank and the university have a history of successful collaboration. 10 YSU students were granted nominal scholarships of AMD 1 million each, while five others received tuition reimbursement.

ArkaAm, Byblos Bank Armenia celebrates Students' Day with scholarship recipients

EBRD and EU boost funding for Armenian firms via Inecobank

The EBRD is providing a US$ 7 million loan to Inecobank for on-lending to Armenian firms. The EU is complementing this support with grant incentives of up to 15 per cent and free local and international consultancy services. At least 70 per cent of loans provided to Ineco Bank will be allocated towards funding investments in green technologies.

ArkaAm, EBRDis providingUS$ 10 million financial package to ArmSwissBank for on-lending to Armenian MSMEs, EBRD plans to invest up to 500 million euros in Armenia in 2024

EBRD President Odile Renaud-Basso re-elected for a second term during annual meeting in Yerevan

Odile Renaud-Basso re-elected for a second term as the bank's president. The EBRD is the leading institutional investor in Armenia. The bank has invested more than €2.1 billion in 211 projects in the country’s financial, corporate, infrastructure and energy sectors.

ArkaAm, EBRD Governors re-elect President Odile Renaud-Basso for a second term

Ardshinbank hostspanel discussion on economic and trade sanctions as part of 33rd EBRD Business Forum

Ardshinbank organized a panel discussion on economic and trade sanctions. The main objective of the discussion was to exchange views and assist participants in the practical implementation of sanctions compliance. The meeting also discussed the role of financial institutions in ensuring sanctions compliance, mechanisms for collaboration between the public and private sectors in combating sanctions evasion, and the importance of information transparency.

ArkaAm, Ardshinbank held a panel discussion on economic and trade sanctions within the framework of the 33rd EBRD conference (PHOTO)

Armenian customs find amphetamine in package from US, suspect detained

90 pills of amphetamine found in package sent from U.S. to Yerevan Zvartnots Airport. The package was sent via Globbing Shipping forwarder company. The drug, fully banned in Armenia, was found inside the package alongside edibles and personal items.

ArkaAm, SRC found 90 amphetamine tablets in a shipment sent from the USA to Yerevan (VIDEO)

Donations to Armenia:

Himnadram
ServicemenFund
Armenian Wounded Heroes
ArmeniaFund

I used to play Genshin in 2021 and played Star Rail since launch but quit both due to boredeom of the repetitiveness, but when I saw a random video of the new Pyro DPS in Genshin I felt an itch to come back to either one of the 2 gachas.
I like both games, open world RPG or turn based RPG, both are fun to play.
However I keep seeing that Star Rail has so many good things like a full-on free 5 star character, lots of rewards for their anniversary and basically a whole ton of other good QoL things that Genshin could have too.
However Genshin seems to be the more popular game even though Star Rail is quote unquote "generous". No one knows if Hoyoverse is playing 4D chess with Star Rail but from what we've seen so far it looks like Star Rail is much more generous but it's less popular than Genshin. Why is that?

Hello fellow potatoes! And to the potato queen herself, girl, you're amazing!!! I just found your channel a few months ago, but I'm a huge fan. I don't have a lot of time for videos, but when I do get to watch, I watch yours.
Have I got a boomemil story for you! Let's go on an adventure...warning...I tell stories with rabbit holes and tangents. This is probably gonna be too long. I'm sorry!!!
So, the characters are me (40f), boomer MIL (64f BM for short, like bowel movement bc she's caca), my oldest son, (17m), and my church "mom" (65f CM for short).
A little background: BM thinks she's an awesome mom and grandma even though she's not. She uses my kids as facebook props to show off how "wonderful" she is. The only reason she was around my kids so often was because we went to the same church. She lived 10 minutes down the road from us, but could never be bothered to come over or have anything to do with any of us is if we didn't initiate. She has always said that if we ever try to threaten to keep our kids away from her, like if we were having a disagreement, that she would not fight to see them. We've never threatened to keep our kids from her, she just wanted us to know that she didn't give a sh!t to see her gandkids. So, that tells you right there, that she's a grandma when it's convenient for her.
She's of the boomer mentality that mental health issues are made up and aren't real. "You have nothing to be depressed about." "Just snap out if it." "Just be happy." You get the point. I struggle with depression, I always have. She doesn't understand or even try to understand and is the least empathetic person I've ever met.
When I get overwhelmed, I get depressed, and I start shutting down. My plate is overflowing right now. Between the end of the school year and the possibility of us moving states, I've been overwhelmed. My oldest is a senior and the last month of senior year is crazy busy. I have another child (11m) in public school and this is his last year of elementary school, so this has been an extremely busy month for him. I have 3 more kids that do online public school/homeschool. So, they're home all day with online classes, but since they're a public school, they have mandatory state testing just like regular public school. I have had to take them to do state testing on 4 different days overyhe last few weeks and the meeting place was 45 minutes from home, at a conference room in a mall. I also babysit 3 kids (1m, 4m, 4f), so hanging out for 4 to 5 hours a day on 4 different days with a shitload of kids at the f#cking mall was not easy. Not to mention the positions and "jobs" that I hold at church. To say I'm busy is an understatement.
We've been planning on moving for the last few months because a position at my husband's work is coming open near where he grew up, which is in another state. His parents recently moved back to their hometown after my FIL retired, so one reason for the move would be to be closer to them. They are getting older, so I would be taking care of them once they needed it, so moving closer seemed like a great option. Also, it's a lower COL area than we live in now. Currently we live in the metro area of a capital city and we would be moving to a middle of nowhere po'dunk town.
Told you, rabbit holes, thanks for still being with me!!!
And this is just the straw that broke the camel's back, this is not the only reason for my decision.
So, to the actual story...
Last week, I got a mother's day card in the mail from BM. She's a dollar tree card fanatic. It was a very typical card that she sends me. Nothing handwritten except for "love, grandma and grandpa." This is what she writes in all my cards. (Another tangent...last year my mom passed a month before mother's day and that actual mother's day was her and my dad's anniversary. And I had a super complicated relationship with my momster. So, it was an exceptionally hard day for me. The card she got me said "Daughter" in huge letters on the front. I thought it was so incredibly passive aggressive and completely inappropriate for that year. If it would've been any other year, it would've been fine. Also, she never gets me cards that just say "daughter" so, to me, it was a low blow.) (Yet another tangent...she does passive aggressive crap all the time, for instance when she used to do fb birthday posts, she would always ask me to send her a pic to post. I'm picky about what pics are used and she knows that. Last year, I sent her a great pic of me and her son to use. So, she used one from about 12 years ago that looked like absolute poop. It was a surprise pic, so like not even posed, stupid look on my face. No matter what pic I send, and usually send like 3, she uses a completely different one that doesn't even look good.) I got the card last Tuesday. Hubby happened to be talking to her while driving home from work that day, so when he got home, I thanked her for the card and just wanted to give her a heads up that I hadn't gotten a chance to mail hers yet because of everything I had going on. I kinda broke down and was sharing how I felt and she basically just said, "suck it up, it'll be fine." She's always been dismissive of my feelings, always.
So, my CM is the sweetest lady you'll ever meet. She listens to me, lets me share my feelings without being dismissive, and actually shows she cares. I see her twice weekly at church, and text with her during the week. Since BM has moved 8 moths ago, she has called or texted "just to talk or check in on us" less than a handful of times. She only calls/texts when she needs something or on a special occasion. She called my husband to ask about something, not just to talk. I understand now why the oldest grandson, my nephew, didn't even bother to invite her to his and his girlfriend's baby shower where he proposed. She thinks she's an amazing grandma bc she sends birthday money in a card and posts their pics on Facebook. And, she even stopped posting the kids birthday messages on fb bc she said it was "too much trouble." So, she just sticks to her 30 daily inspirational Bible quotes posts. She's the type that was so pissed off that both of her kids went with courthouse marriages instead of going into debt for a wedding because she didn't get to walk down the aisle at her kids' weddings and post pics on fb. She's mentioned this several times, but definitely wasn't even willing to spend a dime towards a wedding that no one wanted except her. She was also unwilling to take a day off work to go to the courthouse with us. With both of her kids' marriages, the kids and partners were together for a while and had kids before getting married, so spending tons of money on a huge wedding for either of us couples wouldn't have been the best way to spend money.
On mother's day, I gave my CM a card with a few lines written in it about how amazing she is and how I'm so grateful for her. I'm way closer to her than BM. CM is my chosen family and to me, your chosen family is the one that means more because you chose them, you didn't just get stuck with them. My blood family is incredibly toxic, so I stick with my chosen family. CM made a fb post with all that she got for mother's day. It was gifts and cards from her own children, and of course my card as well. CM & BM are fb friends, so of course BM saw it. Also, BM has everyone convinced she's this sweet, little old church lady, but she is far from it.
So, this Tuesday she got her cards in the mail. I always give her one from hubby and myself, and a separate one from our boys. I wrote a nice little note in it. Not long, a line or 2, but it was more effort than she put into my card. She sent me and hubby the following in a group text...
Copy and pasted, only edited out names.
"Got my cards in the mail today. 😭. They were post marked Saturday. You could of kept them til I got there or next year. It's like yall bought them Saturday, wrote a few words and rushed to get them to post office. My heart 💔broken. I thought I deserved better. I wish I could send pictures of my card verses [CM] 😩 card. I couldnt tell which gift was yours. But least I have a year to try do better and be worthy of such wonderful words of love and praise that was written to her.
I don't mean to complain or seem ungrateful but I wished you hadn't mailed them.😭😭. I can't explain how crushed I am.😔 Anyway hopefully I will see yall on the 20th."
Note: my oldest son is graduating on the 20th. She was supposed to drive down and spend the night with us to attend the graduation. I honestly believe she picked this fight because she doesn't want to drive the 6 hours down here.
If you "don't mean to complain or seem ungrateful" then why tf did you send it? I asked my husband what was his initial reaction and he said, "Really?!? All she had to do was say thanks."
So, after I talked to my husband and oldest son (I wanted to make sure everyone was on board with what I was saying before I sent it) , I sent her this response:
"I mailed them on Friday, I bought them several weeks ago. I told you I hadn't mailed them yet because I've been in a deep depression and you dismissed my feelings like always. I have real, valid feelings and you always dismissed them as silly. And come after me because now you're feelings are hurt. Wow, ok. The absolute audacity. And it's not just with your cards that I'm slacking. It's with everything. Because I have depression. I'm overwhelmed on top of that and literally the only thing you care about is a card. I tried to express my feelings the other day on the phone and you dismissed them like you always do. I know things will be fine, but in this moment they are not and you don't get that. Because you don't understand how or why I feel the way I do, then my feelings are silly or invalid to you.
And I never gave [CM] a present. Don't know why you thought that.
Don't worry about coming down on the 20th."
She replies by trying to blackmail me;
"Well my am so sorry I said anything. I never realized you thought that about me. I never dismissed your depression but yes i never knew what to do for you. I am not going to go back and forth about this. I will text [son] and let him know you told me not to come."
She's not sorry to me for being dismissive, she's sorry because now she doesn't get her "Proud MeMe moment" and can't post pictures of her at his graduation on fb. And even if she didn't "know what to do" for me, all she had to do was ask. Or listen. Or give a damn hug. But, no, she just dismissed me bc to her depression isn't real. And she's not going back and forth bc she knows shes wrong! Little did she know that I had already cleared it with hubby and son before sending the text, so I think she thought it would make me look bad to my oldest son that I told her no to come. Oldest son said, "I'm neutral, I don't care if she comes or not. It's not like she's had anything to do with us since she moved, and barely had anything to do with us when she was here."
So, my last text to her said, "He knows. I asked him before I texted you, and he's good with it."
All she had to do was say thanks or not even say anything at all. But, no, she had to say something stupid. Even her own son said that she's lucky she even got a card bc if it was up to him, her actual son, she wouldn't have gotten anything. So, not only is she not invited to the graduation, she's never welcome in my home again. The great part is I don't have to share my holidays with her ever again!!! And please know that I'd never keep her grandchildren from her, but if she wants a relationship with them, she'll have to put some effort in. And we all know boomers hate effort.
If you made it this far, thanks for reading my rant. I appreciate you my friends!