How to check for employment status after interview
Prepare For The Part
2012.06.13 19:18 Apostolate Prepare For The Part
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2024.05.21 18:39 throwdatshataway Hate my new job and waiting on an offer to resign from this hot mess express
I was working a remote job at a prestigious company that I loved. I was making 66K which isn’t great with a masters degree but the job had other perks like lots of time off and a flexible schedule that balanced out the shitty salary.
Unfortunately I was laid off in February and had to take the first thing I could get (I live in a HCOL). I accepted a role with a global non-profit as their marketing and special events manager. The problem is it’s fully in office from 8:30 to 4:30 and is completely outdated. It also only pays 55k so I had to take an 11K pay cut. Plus, the way these folks work is 20 years behind and I am not used to sitting in front of my computer anymore for hours on end, even when I have nothing to do.
To make matters worse, my supervisor is a micro-manager and literally does nothing except check on the status of my assignments all day long. I’m a 34 year old woman and expect trust when it comes to completing my projects. I don’t need anyone riding my ass.
I’m waiting on a potential offer and an additional interview for hybrid roles. Hopefully I score one of those jobs and if I do I’m going to resign, effective immediately.
It’s a huge drag to get out of bed to come to this place everyday and each day I find myself sinking further and further into depression. I can’t do this anymore but I’m trying to hold on as long as possible because I need the money.
I also find that the job market has been terrible. I’ve had countless interviews but no other offers. It has never taken me this long in the past to land a gig.
Anyone else in a similar situation? How are you handling it???
submitted by throwdatshataway to jobs [link] [comments]
Unfortunately I was laid off in February and had to take the first thing I could get (I live in a HCOL). I accepted a role with a global non-profit as their marketing and special events manager. The problem is it’s fully in office from 8:30 to 4:30 and is completely outdated. It also only pays 55k so I had to take an 11K pay cut. Plus, the way these folks work is 20 years behind and I am not used to sitting in front of my computer anymore for hours on end, even when I have nothing to do.
To make matters worse, my supervisor is a micro-manager and literally does nothing except check on the status of my assignments all day long. I’m a 34 year old woman and expect trust when it comes to completing my projects. I don’t need anyone riding my ass.
I’m waiting on a potential offer and an additional interview for hybrid roles. Hopefully I score one of those jobs and if I do I’m going to resign, effective immediately.
It’s a huge drag to get out of bed to come to this place everyday and each day I find myself sinking further and further into depression. I can’t do this anymore but I’m trying to hold on as long as possible because I need the money.
I also find that the job market has been terrible. I’ve had countless interviews but no other offers. It has never taken me this long in the past to land a gig.
Anyone else in a similar situation? How are you handling it???
2024.05.21 18:31 astrohoe11 Am I wrong for ghosting one of my “friends”?
Am I wrong for soft ghosting one of my “friends”?
Wow, this one might me a long one.
So I moved to (undisclosed location) sometime in the beginning of last year. When I moved here I really had no friends but became heavily involved in this yoga studio I went to and slowly but surely started to make friends/acquaintances with the teacher that instructed me.
From afar she seemed super cool and I became pretty enthralled with her and her life. I would look forward so heavily to going to her classes every week and was quite intrigued by her. I thought she was funny, bubbly, spunky, cool, and always made jokes during class that made me laugh. As months went by I found myself wanting to get closer and closer to her, and she even invited me out one time to one of her “events” she was hosting. Here’s the thing;
It seemed like we had a lot in common and was just generally craving camaraderie and connection. I felt a sense of belonging with her and wanted to expand that energy in my life, and wanted to do anything I could to get closer to her for those reasons. But I guess this is where we have the first red flag;
One day after class, she extended an invitation to me to a meet up of sorts, (I’m being sparing with details just out of fear she might read this) and when she invited me it seemed like it was gonna be this big thing with lots of people invited, and just in general in talking to her it seemed as if she was very well connected and respected within her community, had lots of friends and connects, and I thought this was gonna be a huge thing that I was even lucky to be invited to. I was super stoked and exited about it.
However when the day of the event came, I was super tired and slow to getting up that morning. I figured I would just make my way over whenever I could since it seemed causal and like you could drop in whenever. I also figured there would be more than enough people that no one would really even notice my arrival or departure. (Plus, sometimes it’s chic to be fashionably late ;) ). Well…. I was most definitely wrong.
When I showed up I heard someone excitedly shout my name, which was her, and she waved me down to the “meet up”…. There was literally only one person there and it had been going on for 2+ hours. I was definitely a bit unnerved, but also didn’t want to be rude, and like I said I was just kind of happy to be there and be getting invited to things. But it was kinda like, damn…. Are these all the friends you have?
I had dressed up and looked cute but they were just kind of wearing whatever and I felt awkward and overdressed and also embarrassed now that I was even this late because it was clearly much more intimate than I expected and my arrival/absence was DEFINITELY felt. We had chatted a bit and that was cool but then I remember her confessing me that she had cried to her husband earlier that morning that she was scared nobody was going to show up and how thrilled she was that not only one, but TWO people had showed up and that it felt like she had friends. I wasn’t really sure what to say or make of that.
She also…. The whole time (and mind you, this is our first legitimate interaction out of yoga class) just kind of kept talking maniacally AT me, not to me, and was coming off almost even manic, and she had formed a white crust of spit around her mouth probably from talking so much that I couldn’t look away from. To say the least, I was a bit disturbed coming away from this interaction but I just kept telling myself that I was being too judgmental of her and to give it a chance and that maybe she was just hyper that day and that I had probably had unintentional embarrassing hygiene moments as well. So I keep going to class and that’s that.
There were several other red flag moments between this first interaction and the next one, mostly just her incredibly cringey social media presence that I genuinely almost couldn’t stand to see without feeling like I was withering away inside, but maybe I’ll save that for later. It’s almost like I couldn’t just see that the person I thought was so cool in class and the person I was seeing her be online and outside of class were the same people. But I digress.
She had actually ended up inviting me to go with her on one of her international yoga retreats, and I was actually very excited about this. I had very little time with her in between classes, and my attraction (but also repulsion) with her was growing stronger and I wanted to figure her out and see what she was really about and what the pull I was feeling towards her was about. Plus, I love travelling and just thought it would be fun.
I had a pretty good time, but we didn’t get to talk much, HOWEVER, I do remember this distinct point during the trip where it was myself, 2-3 other fiends I had made, her brother, and her “best friend” who had happened to be her brother’s Gf in a room together, talking. the brother, the best friend, and the other friend I made just all completely started talking shit about her and I was so confused.
I felt super hurt by this actually, bc I felt like I had a inexplicable bond with the teacher who had invited me, she was the reason we were all there in that beautiful place, and I just couldn’t understand why they were choosing to be so negative about someone I thought they had claimed (at least by title) to love. They would say things like “I can’t fucking stand your sister” (one of the friends I made to the brother) and everyone would just sigh and put their hands in their head and be like “I know…. I know. It’s a lot. She’s a lot”. And I didn’t have anything to add to the conversation because I was just so confused and I knew the girl would just be so upset if she heard them saying this. Anyway… that confusion stuck with me for a while after.
Fast forward maybe a month or two, I started hanging out with her more regularly myself outside of class. I would say this is when we became more “friends”. She would invite me to other teachers classes and we would talk a lot about our lives.
I learned how she felt about her close friend and family connections, and how she often felt hurt and betrayed by people close to her and how some of her friends were actually really shady. I just got a general sense of her feeling scapegoated and libeled against by ppl that got close to her and how she had walls up for that reason.
She also shared to me that most of her family was cut off, with the exception of her brother who she had recently rekindled a connection with, hence why he was on that trip. I felt very bad for her and wanted to be a source of comfort and support, and she would often comment on how she felt a sense of camaraderie with me since I also (LITERALLY) had no family and how we have to make our chosen family. This was a sweet sentiment, for sure, but I was still sussing out how I felt about her.
So one day, a mutual friend that had been on the trip with us was having a birthday party and I guess that she was invited to it, too. She sat down next to me and I was SUPER excited to see her as I was craving her energy and hadn’t seen her in some time. But then… idk. She had had a lot to drink. I’m fully aware that she’s kind of a quirky individual, and has a way of socializing which I can sometimes find a bit uncomfortable or even intense, (like the first meetup I spoke of) but this time it was even more and seemed to be heightened by the drinking.
Her husband was sitting on her other side and kept trying to interject and insinuate that maybe she was doing a bit much, but I think she was drunk enough to the point that she just found it funny and had no awareness of how she was coming off. There’s not even a way I can describe it really, but she just seemed a bit obsessive over me and kept making jokes that were literally not funny and seemed to have lost all ability to read the room. I also had noticed that she had only had TWO beers and was acting like this already which I found… really strange.
So at some point she goes to the bathroom, and I also get in line for the bathroom about 5 mins later. When I get up to the bathroom, she’s still in there, and there’s a line of about 2 or 3 people ahead of me. When she exits the bathroom she immediately spots me and rushes up to me and just starts… drunkenly spewing.
I can’t even remember what she was saying, but we were in a pretty high class establishment and I remember her gushing over me and was saying “I just want to let you know that I don’t really have friends or let people close to me in my circle but I just want to let you know that YOU are officially in my circle and you have earned friend status to me and I’ve let you in my circle…” or something like that. And I just kept thinking, who tf even says that??? I’m pretty sure the last time I checked that friendship is a two way street and it’s not just a title we bestow onto some “lucky” person and that’s that. Like girl… let ME decide if I want to be friends too first.
It was partially that, and also the way she was drunkenly spewing was so awkward and embarrassing bc I could tell all the other women in line were like who tf is this bitch and why is she saying all this weird stuff and like, does she even know you?? Lol. Just a very odd interaction which again, I kind of wrote off, but the unsettling feeling kind of just kept growing after that point.
Then, the time that I REALLY knew something was up came up about a month later, but there are still some key details of this story that are missing. Perhaps I will discuss them later.
SO. About a month later, she invited me last minute to this concert of sorts. When I got there, I was super excited to be there, the vibes were amazing and we were having so much fun. But she had definitely had a lot, A LOT to drink. I didn’t mind at first, because everyone there seemed severely under the influence, but she would just start randomly kind of lashing out at people in the crowd and she thought it was funny? She first loudly and audibly started making fun of some guys shoes in front of us, and was trying to laugh with me as if I would join in, but when his girl friend turned around and shot her a dirty look, she had the nerve to be self conscious and mad about it. She would loudly poke fun at other people in the crowd too, but not in a ha-ha way, just in a straight up mean and asshole way and I could not understand why she would even do that or why she thought that was funny.
Again, I kind of just awkwardly laughed and brushed it off. But when all was said and done and the concert was closing, she enthusiastically invited me back to go to her house and soak in her hot tub. I kept saying are you sure?? But she was like please, PLEASE come, we have weed, we’ll smoke you out and other things and I wanted to continue the vibes because it sounded fun. And then….. completely downhill.
I had arrived back at their place before she did, but as soon as I saw them go in I knocked. When I walked in, she was pale faced up on the floor, non verbal, pretty much motionless, and staring at the ceiling. I was like oh no… it seemed like she got a bit too much to drink. I waited patiently there for a few mins, unsure of what to do as I had just drove for 45 mins and I was still 25 mins in the opposite direction away from home.
I kind of just sat around, and hoped that she would sober up. I asked if she was drunk… she said no. She ran to her bathroom multiple times while her husband (a complete socially awkward case himself) tried to take care of her while she threw up. I asked her if she puked and she also said no. So I didn’t really know what to do. I was trying to offer support/ empathy but she just kept denying any claims of anything being amiss. Her husband left to pick up a pizza and I probably just should’ve left but I’m telling you I had no idea how to exit their house without making it weird or awkward. And I also was hungry. So I just stayed… and waited for the pizza.
What happened in those 20-30 mins, I don’t even know if I can fully explain. She just became… so FUCKING WEIRD. she clearly was embarrassed that I was seeing her drunk, and I think was trying to over compensate. But she just turned into an absolute freak show and I’ve never been more uncomfortable in my life.
She started hoola hooping in my face, and making these weird gremlin faces and noises at me, fell to the floor, rolled round on the floor while continuing to make the noises, convulsed on the floor, but tried to do it in a funny way, tried to make an interpretive dance for me… I’ve truly never experienced something so uncomfortable in my life. I probably do sound like an asshole, but I swear you would just have to be there to see how a) gross and b) weird and actually scary it was. I was genuinely frightened.
I’ve never seen anyone act like that and I didn’t want to make her more uncomfortable or weird by showing her how clearly uncomfortable I actually was. so I just sat there and tried to laugh. But it probably came off as more of a grimace. And for the record, this woman is 33. I am 26. It was just. Obscene.
And she’s tried to act like and say multiple times that she’s like my “big sister”. Now I’ve seen a lot of drunk behavior, but not this. I wolfed down my pizza, and so did she, and she started to get even more philosophical and weird on me, showing me songs and art which were quite frankly some of the worst things I’ve ever heard in my life, and I left as soon as I could.
I was so shaken and disturbed coming away from this, because like I said earlier, I thought she was a cool girl, but honestly her behavior and lack of control over herself completely terrified me. And it’s not like she was drinking liquor, it was just damn IPAs. And I just did not know what to do.
Some details I will try to add to this story, even though I know it’s monolithic at this point , is that 2 months prior to this she had gotten fired from the studio she worked at.
She had a mental breakdown during class because the manager was being mean to her, and he fired her on the spot. I remember being so angry with the owner, (honestly he IS a piece of shit human being) but I thought he was being sexist by calling her mentally unstable and I thought the way he handled things was unfair.
I went so far as to boycott the studio and completely remove myself from it in support of her and followed her to her new one. After the drunk #2 incident, I didn’t hang out with her very much, and only saw her during her class as I was locked into a certain number of classes I had paid for.
I remember her telling me that she had just started at ANOTHER studio, and got fired 3 days after on her birthday and she was talking about how unfair it was and how much of an asshole that new girl was for firing her… and I believed her. AGAIN.
I went so far as to block that girl on Instagram too, but deep down I kind of knew that she had probably just been fired bc let’s face it… as I was starting to discover, she WAS a lot. and the studio was in an upper class area , catered towards more upper echelon people, and I just don’t think she was fitting that image. I lent her an empathetic ear, because that’s all I would want in that situation.
But where she fucked up was sending me screenshot proof of the text exchange between her and that girl, thinking I would take her side, and later sending me screenshots of another conversation she had with the OTHER manager. She told me that this new girl fired her for bringing her husband to class. In my mind I was like, oh no, is she racist!?! Because her husband was black. But no, that’s not what I read at all.
It was the most reasonable, level headed response to someone ever, and laid out multiple offenses and reasons she didn’t want her at the studio. The reasons were honestly so embarrassing that I don’t know why she would send it to me and think I would side with her. She recently also sent me messages with the other boss and the last thing he says to her is “I hope you get help for your mental illness because whatever you have is serious and will impact all your relationships and business and things that you do”. And honestly I can now say in retrospect that those were the truest words ever spoken.
When I read these texts, I had a look back at my whole relationship with and how she would always paint everyone else to be the villain and how everyone is so mean to HER… and the whole time the common denominator was her. It was always her. And it made me rethink everything.
I’ve even had extensive conversations with some of the other people on her trip that were talking shit and couldn’t stand her and they all told me the same things. How it seemed like she was the coolest person ever and had her shit together and seemed like she was going places… but deep down she was just an absolute mess and pushed everyone away from her. And I no longer felt like I was going crazy.
But like I said, she formed a really close bond with me (I think from her perspective) and said she felt like my big sister and family, and shared all these stories about her feeling isolated and shut out by people, but now here I am, doing the exact same thing to her. Icing her out of my life. And I just wanna ask you guys…
Am the asshole?
submitted by astrohoe11 to ghosting [link] [comments]
Wow, this one might me a long one.
So I moved to (undisclosed location) sometime in the beginning of last year. When I moved here I really had no friends but became heavily involved in this yoga studio I went to and slowly but surely started to make friends/acquaintances with the teacher that instructed me.
From afar she seemed super cool and I became pretty enthralled with her and her life. I would look forward so heavily to going to her classes every week and was quite intrigued by her. I thought she was funny, bubbly, spunky, cool, and always made jokes during class that made me laugh. As months went by I found myself wanting to get closer and closer to her, and she even invited me out one time to one of her “events” she was hosting. Here’s the thing;
It seemed like we had a lot in common and was just generally craving camaraderie and connection. I felt a sense of belonging with her and wanted to expand that energy in my life, and wanted to do anything I could to get closer to her for those reasons. But I guess this is where we have the first red flag;
One day after class, she extended an invitation to me to a meet up of sorts, (I’m being sparing with details just out of fear she might read this) and when she invited me it seemed like it was gonna be this big thing with lots of people invited, and just in general in talking to her it seemed as if she was very well connected and respected within her community, had lots of friends and connects, and I thought this was gonna be a huge thing that I was even lucky to be invited to. I was super stoked and exited about it.
However when the day of the event came, I was super tired and slow to getting up that morning. I figured I would just make my way over whenever I could since it seemed causal and like you could drop in whenever. I also figured there would be more than enough people that no one would really even notice my arrival or departure. (Plus, sometimes it’s chic to be fashionably late ;) ). Well…. I was most definitely wrong.
When I showed up I heard someone excitedly shout my name, which was her, and she waved me down to the “meet up”…. There was literally only one person there and it had been going on for 2+ hours. I was definitely a bit unnerved, but also didn’t want to be rude, and like I said I was just kind of happy to be there and be getting invited to things. But it was kinda like, damn…. Are these all the friends you have?
I had dressed up and looked cute but they were just kind of wearing whatever and I felt awkward and overdressed and also embarrassed now that I was even this late because it was clearly much more intimate than I expected and my arrival/absence was DEFINITELY felt. We had chatted a bit and that was cool but then I remember her confessing me that she had cried to her husband earlier that morning that she was scared nobody was going to show up and how thrilled she was that not only one, but TWO people had showed up and that it felt like she had friends. I wasn’t really sure what to say or make of that.
She also…. The whole time (and mind you, this is our first legitimate interaction out of yoga class) just kind of kept talking maniacally AT me, not to me, and was coming off almost even manic, and she had formed a white crust of spit around her mouth probably from talking so much that I couldn’t look away from. To say the least, I was a bit disturbed coming away from this interaction but I just kept telling myself that I was being too judgmental of her and to give it a chance and that maybe she was just hyper that day and that I had probably had unintentional embarrassing hygiene moments as well. So I keep going to class and that’s that.
There were several other red flag moments between this first interaction and the next one, mostly just her incredibly cringey social media presence that I genuinely almost couldn’t stand to see without feeling like I was withering away inside, but maybe I’ll save that for later. It’s almost like I couldn’t just see that the person I thought was so cool in class and the person I was seeing her be online and outside of class were the same people. But I digress.
She had actually ended up inviting me to go with her on one of her international yoga retreats, and I was actually very excited about this. I had very little time with her in between classes, and my attraction (but also repulsion) with her was growing stronger and I wanted to figure her out and see what she was really about and what the pull I was feeling towards her was about. Plus, I love travelling and just thought it would be fun.
I had a pretty good time, but we didn’t get to talk much, HOWEVER, I do remember this distinct point during the trip where it was myself, 2-3 other fiends I had made, her brother, and her “best friend” who had happened to be her brother’s Gf in a room together, talking. the brother, the best friend, and the other friend I made just all completely started talking shit about her and I was so confused.
I felt super hurt by this actually, bc I felt like I had a inexplicable bond with the teacher who had invited me, she was the reason we were all there in that beautiful place, and I just couldn’t understand why they were choosing to be so negative about someone I thought they had claimed (at least by title) to love. They would say things like “I can’t fucking stand your sister” (one of the friends I made to the brother) and everyone would just sigh and put their hands in their head and be like “I know…. I know. It’s a lot. She’s a lot”. And I didn’t have anything to add to the conversation because I was just so confused and I knew the girl would just be so upset if she heard them saying this. Anyway… that confusion stuck with me for a while after.
Fast forward maybe a month or two, I started hanging out with her more regularly myself outside of class. I would say this is when we became more “friends”. She would invite me to other teachers classes and we would talk a lot about our lives.
I learned how she felt about her close friend and family connections, and how she often felt hurt and betrayed by people close to her and how some of her friends were actually really shady. I just got a general sense of her feeling scapegoated and libeled against by ppl that got close to her and how she had walls up for that reason.
She also shared to me that most of her family was cut off, with the exception of her brother who she had recently rekindled a connection with, hence why he was on that trip. I felt very bad for her and wanted to be a source of comfort and support, and she would often comment on how she felt a sense of camaraderie with me since I also (LITERALLY) had no family and how we have to make our chosen family. This was a sweet sentiment, for sure, but I was still sussing out how I felt about her.
So one day, a mutual friend that had been on the trip with us was having a birthday party and I guess that she was invited to it, too. She sat down next to me and I was SUPER excited to see her as I was craving her energy and hadn’t seen her in some time. But then… idk. She had had a lot to drink. I’m fully aware that she’s kind of a quirky individual, and has a way of socializing which I can sometimes find a bit uncomfortable or even intense, (like the first meetup I spoke of) but this time it was even more and seemed to be heightened by the drinking.
Her husband was sitting on her other side and kept trying to interject and insinuate that maybe she was doing a bit much, but I think she was drunk enough to the point that she just found it funny and had no awareness of how she was coming off. There’s not even a way I can describe it really, but she just seemed a bit obsessive over me and kept making jokes that were literally not funny and seemed to have lost all ability to read the room. I also had noticed that she had only had TWO beers and was acting like this already which I found… really strange.
So at some point she goes to the bathroom, and I also get in line for the bathroom about 5 mins later. When I get up to the bathroom, she’s still in there, and there’s a line of about 2 or 3 people ahead of me. When she exits the bathroom she immediately spots me and rushes up to me and just starts… drunkenly spewing.
I can’t even remember what she was saying, but we were in a pretty high class establishment and I remember her gushing over me and was saying “I just want to let you know that I don’t really have friends or let people close to me in my circle but I just want to let you know that YOU are officially in my circle and you have earned friend status to me and I’ve let you in my circle…” or something like that. And I just kept thinking, who tf even says that??? I’m pretty sure the last time I checked that friendship is a two way street and it’s not just a title we bestow onto some “lucky” person and that’s that. Like girl… let ME decide if I want to be friends too first.
It was partially that, and also the way she was drunkenly spewing was so awkward and embarrassing bc I could tell all the other women in line were like who tf is this bitch and why is she saying all this weird stuff and like, does she even know you?? Lol. Just a very odd interaction which again, I kind of wrote off, but the unsettling feeling kind of just kept growing after that point.
Then, the time that I REALLY knew something was up came up about a month later, but there are still some key details of this story that are missing. Perhaps I will discuss them later.
SO. About a month later, she invited me last minute to this concert of sorts. When I got there, I was super excited to be there, the vibes were amazing and we were having so much fun. But she had definitely had a lot, A LOT to drink. I didn’t mind at first, because everyone there seemed severely under the influence, but she would just start randomly kind of lashing out at people in the crowd and she thought it was funny? She first loudly and audibly started making fun of some guys shoes in front of us, and was trying to laugh with me as if I would join in, but when his girl friend turned around and shot her a dirty look, she had the nerve to be self conscious and mad about it. She would loudly poke fun at other people in the crowd too, but not in a ha-ha way, just in a straight up mean and asshole way and I could not understand why she would even do that or why she thought that was funny.
Again, I kind of just awkwardly laughed and brushed it off. But when all was said and done and the concert was closing, she enthusiastically invited me back to go to her house and soak in her hot tub. I kept saying are you sure?? But she was like please, PLEASE come, we have weed, we’ll smoke you out and other things and I wanted to continue the vibes because it sounded fun. And then….. completely downhill.
I had arrived back at their place before she did, but as soon as I saw them go in I knocked. When I walked in, she was pale faced up on the floor, non verbal, pretty much motionless, and staring at the ceiling. I was like oh no… it seemed like she got a bit too much to drink. I waited patiently there for a few mins, unsure of what to do as I had just drove for 45 mins and I was still 25 mins in the opposite direction away from home.
I kind of just sat around, and hoped that she would sober up. I asked if she was drunk… she said no. She ran to her bathroom multiple times while her husband (a complete socially awkward case himself) tried to take care of her while she threw up. I asked her if she puked and she also said no. So I didn’t really know what to do. I was trying to offer support/ empathy but she just kept denying any claims of anything being amiss. Her husband left to pick up a pizza and I probably just should’ve left but I’m telling you I had no idea how to exit their house without making it weird or awkward. And I also was hungry. So I just stayed… and waited for the pizza.
What happened in those 20-30 mins, I don’t even know if I can fully explain. She just became… so FUCKING WEIRD. she clearly was embarrassed that I was seeing her drunk, and I think was trying to over compensate. But she just turned into an absolute freak show and I’ve never been more uncomfortable in my life.
She started hoola hooping in my face, and making these weird gremlin faces and noises at me, fell to the floor, rolled round on the floor while continuing to make the noises, convulsed on the floor, but tried to do it in a funny way, tried to make an interpretive dance for me… I’ve truly never experienced something so uncomfortable in my life. I probably do sound like an asshole, but I swear you would just have to be there to see how a) gross and b) weird and actually scary it was. I was genuinely frightened.
I’ve never seen anyone act like that and I didn’t want to make her more uncomfortable or weird by showing her how clearly uncomfortable I actually was. so I just sat there and tried to laugh. But it probably came off as more of a grimace. And for the record, this woman is 33. I am 26. It was just. Obscene.
And she’s tried to act like and say multiple times that she’s like my “big sister”. Now I’ve seen a lot of drunk behavior, but not this. I wolfed down my pizza, and so did she, and she started to get even more philosophical and weird on me, showing me songs and art which were quite frankly some of the worst things I’ve ever heard in my life, and I left as soon as I could.
I was so shaken and disturbed coming away from this, because like I said earlier, I thought she was a cool girl, but honestly her behavior and lack of control over herself completely terrified me. And it’s not like she was drinking liquor, it was just damn IPAs. And I just did not know what to do.
Some details I will try to add to this story, even though I know it’s monolithic at this point , is that 2 months prior to this she had gotten fired from the studio she worked at.
She had a mental breakdown during class because the manager was being mean to her, and he fired her on the spot. I remember being so angry with the owner, (honestly he IS a piece of shit human being) but I thought he was being sexist by calling her mentally unstable and I thought the way he handled things was unfair.
I went so far as to boycott the studio and completely remove myself from it in support of her and followed her to her new one. After the drunk #2 incident, I didn’t hang out with her very much, and only saw her during her class as I was locked into a certain number of classes I had paid for.
I remember her telling me that she had just started at ANOTHER studio, and got fired 3 days after on her birthday and she was talking about how unfair it was and how much of an asshole that new girl was for firing her… and I believed her. AGAIN.
I went so far as to block that girl on Instagram too, but deep down I kind of knew that she had probably just been fired bc let’s face it… as I was starting to discover, she WAS a lot. and the studio was in an upper class area , catered towards more upper echelon people, and I just don’t think she was fitting that image. I lent her an empathetic ear, because that’s all I would want in that situation.
But where she fucked up was sending me screenshot proof of the text exchange between her and that girl, thinking I would take her side, and later sending me screenshots of another conversation she had with the OTHER manager. She told me that this new girl fired her for bringing her husband to class. In my mind I was like, oh no, is she racist!?! Because her husband was black. But no, that’s not what I read at all.
It was the most reasonable, level headed response to someone ever, and laid out multiple offenses and reasons she didn’t want her at the studio. The reasons were honestly so embarrassing that I don’t know why she would send it to me and think I would side with her. She recently also sent me messages with the other boss and the last thing he says to her is “I hope you get help for your mental illness because whatever you have is serious and will impact all your relationships and business and things that you do”. And honestly I can now say in retrospect that those were the truest words ever spoken.
When I read these texts, I had a look back at my whole relationship with and how she would always paint everyone else to be the villain and how everyone is so mean to HER… and the whole time the common denominator was her. It was always her. And it made me rethink everything.
I’ve even had extensive conversations with some of the other people on her trip that were talking shit and couldn’t stand her and they all told me the same things. How it seemed like she was the coolest person ever and had her shit together and seemed like she was going places… but deep down she was just an absolute mess and pushed everyone away from her. And I no longer felt like I was going crazy.
But like I said, she formed a really close bond with me (I think from her perspective) and said she felt like my big sister and family, and shared all these stories about her feeling isolated and shut out by people, but now here I am, doing the exact same thing to her. Icing her out of my life. And I just wanna ask you guys…
Am the asshole?
2024.05.21 18:30 astrohoe11 AITAH for ghosting one of my “friends”?
Am I wrong for soft ghosting one of my “friends”?
Wow, this one might me a long one.
So I moved to (undisclosed location) sometime in the beginning of last year. When I moved here I really had no friends but became heavily involved in this yoga studio I went to and slowly but surely started to make friends/acquaintances with the teacher that instructed me.
From afar she seemed super cool and I became pretty enthralled with her and her life. I would look forward so heavily to going to her classes every week and was quite intrigued by her. I thought she was funny, bubbly, spunky, cool, and always made jokes during class that made me laugh. As months went by I found myself wanting to get closer and closer to her, and she even invited me out one time to one of her “events” she was hosting. Here’s the thing;
It seemed like we had a lot in common and was just generally craving camaraderie and connection. I felt a sense of belonging with her and wanted to expand that energy in my life, and wanted to do anything I could to get closer to her for those reasons. But I guess this is where we have the first red flag;
One day after class, she extended an invitation to me to a meet up of sorts, (I’m being sparing with details just out of fear she might read this) and when she invited me it seemed like it was gonna be this big thing with lots of people invited, and just in general in talking to her it seemed as if she was very well connected and respected within her community, had lots of friends and connects, and I thought this was gonna be a huge thing that I was even lucky to be invited to. I was super stoked and exited about it.
However when the day of the event came, I was super tired and slow to getting up that morning. I figured I would just make my way over whenever I could since it seemed causal and like you could drop in whenever. I also figured there would be more than enough people that no one would really even notice my arrival or departure. (Plus, sometimes it’s chic to be fashionably late ;) ). Well…. I was most definitely wrong.
When I showed up I heard someone excitedly shout my name, which was her, and she waved me down to the “meet up”…. There was literally only one person there and it had been going on for 2+ hours. I was definitely a bit unnerved, but also didn’t want to be rude, and like I said I was just kind of happy to be there and be getting invited to things. But it was kinda like, damn…. Are these all the friends you have?
I had dressed up and looked cute but they were just kind of wearing whatever and I felt awkward and overdressed and also embarrassed now that I was even this late because it was clearly much more intimate than I expected and my arrival/absence was DEFINITELY felt. We had chatted a bit and that was cool but then I remember her confessing me that she had cried to her husband earlier that morning that she was scared nobody was going to show up and how thrilled she was that not only one, but TWO people had showed up and that it felt like she had friends. I wasn’t really sure what to say or make of that.
She also…. The whole time (and mind you, this is our first legitimate interaction out of yoga class) just kind of kept talking maniacally AT me, not to me, and was coming off almost even manic, and she had formed a white crust of spit around her mouth probably from talking so much that I couldn’t look away from. To say the least, I was a bit disturbed coming away from this interaction but I just kept telling myself that I was being too judgmental of her and to give it a chance and that maybe she was just hyper that day and that I had probably had unintentional embarrassing hygiene moments as well. So I keep going to class and that’s that.
There were several other red flag moments between this first interaction and the next one, mostly just her incredibly cringey social media presence that I genuinely almost couldn’t stand to see without feeling like I was withering away inside, but maybe I’ll save that for later. It’s almost like I couldn’t just see that the person I thought was so cool in class and the person I was seeing her be online and outside of class were the same people. But I digress.
She had actually ended up inviting me to go with her on one of her international yoga retreats, and I was actually very excited about this. I had very little time with her in between classes, and my attraction (but also repulsion) with her was growing stronger and I wanted to figure her out and see what she was really about and what the pull I was feeling towards her was about. Plus, I love travelling and just thought it would be fun.
I had a pretty good time, but we didn’t get to talk much, HOWEVER, I do remember this distinct point during the trip where it was myself, 2-3 other fiends I had made, her brother, and her “best friend” who had happened to be her brother’s Gf in a room together, talking. the brother, the best friend, and the other friend I made just all completely started talking shit about her and I was so confused.
I felt super hurt by this actually, bc I felt like I had a inexplicable bond with the teacher who had invited me, she was the reason we were all there in that beautiful place, and I just couldn’t understand why they were choosing to be so negative about someone I thought they had claimed (at least by title) to love. They would say things like “I can’t fucking stand your sister” (one of the friends I made to the brother) and everyone would just sigh and put their hands in their head and be like “I know…. I know. It’s a lot. She’s a lot”. And I didn’t have anything to add to the conversation because I was just so confused and I knew the girl would just be so upset if she heard them saying this. Anyway… that confusion stuck with me for a while after.
Fast forward maybe a month or two, I started hanging out with her more regularly myself outside of class. I would say this is when we became more “friends”. She would invite me to other teachers classes and we would talk a lot about our lives.
I learned how she felt about her close friend and family connections, and how she often felt hurt and betrayed by people close to her and how some of her friends were actually really shady. I just got a general sense of her feeling scapegoated and libeled against by ppl that got close to her and how she had walls up for that reason.
She also shared to me that most of her family was cut off, with the exception of her brother who she had recently rekindled a connection with, hence why he was on that trip. I felt very bad for her and wanted to be a source of comfort and support, and she would often comment on how she felt a sense of camaraderie with me since I also (LITERALLY) had no family and how we have to make our chosen family. This was a sweet sentiment, for sure, but I was still sussing out how I felt about her.
So one day, a mutual friend that had been on the trip with us was having a birthday party and I guess that she was invited to it, too. She sat down next to me and I was SUPER excited to see her as I was craving her energy and hadn’t seen her in some time. But then… idk. She had had a lot to drink. I’m fully aware that she’s kind of a quirky individual, and has a way of socializing which I can sometimes find a bit uncomfortable or even intense, (like the first meetup I spoke of) but this time it was even more and seemed to be heightened by the drinking.
Her husband was sitting on her other side and kept trying to interject and insinuate that maybe she was doing a bit much, but I think she was drunk enough to the point that she just found it funny and had no awareness of how she was coming off. There’s not even a way I can describe it really, but she just seemed a bit obsessive over me and kept making jokes that were literally not funny and seemed to have lost all ability to read the room. I also had noticed that she had only had TWO beers and was acting like this already which I found… really strange.
So at some point she goes to the bathroom, and I also get in line for the bathroom about 5 mins later. When I get up to the bathroom, she’s still in there, and there’s a line of about 2 or 3 people ahead of me. When she exits the bathroom she immediately spots me and rushes up to me and just starts… drunkenly spewing.
I can’t even remember what she was saying, but we were in a pretty high class establishment and I remember her gushing over me and was saying “I just want to let you know that I don’t really have friends or let people close to me in my circle but I just want to let you know that YOU are officially in my circle and you have earned friend status to me and I’ve let you in my circle…” or something like that. And I just kept thinking, who tf even says that??? I’m pretty sure the last time I checked that friendship is a two way street and it’s not just a title we bestow onto some “lucky” person and that’s that. Like girl… let ME decide if I want to be friends too first.
It was partially that, and also the way she was drunkenly spewing was so awkward and embarrassing bc I could tell all the other women in line were like who tf is this bitch and why is she saying all this weird stuff and like, does she even know you?? Lol. Just a very odd interaction which again, I kind of wrote off, but the unsettling feeling kind of just kept growing after that point.
Then, the time that I REALLY knew something was up came up about a month later, but there are still some key details of this story that are missing. Perhaps I will discuss them later.
SO. About a month later, she invited me last minute to this concert of sorts. When I got there, I was super excited to be there, the vibes were amazing and we were having so much fun. But she had definitely had a lot, A LOT to drink. I didn’t mind at first, because everyone there seemed severely under the influence, but she would just start randomly kind of lashing out at people in the crowd and she thought it was funny? She first loudly and audibly started making fun of some guys shoes in front of us, and was trying to laugh with me as if I would join in, but when his girl friend turned around and shot her a dirty look, she had the nerve to be self conscious and mad about it. She would loudly poke fun at other people in the crowd too, but not in a ha-ha way, just in a straight up mean and asshole way and I could not understand why she would even do that or why she thought that was funny.
Again, I kind of just awkwardly laughed and brushed it off. But when all was said and done and the concert was closing, she enthusiastically invited me back to go to her house and soak in her hot tub. I kept saying are you sure?? But she was like please, PLEASE come, we have weed, we’ll smoke you out and other things and I wanted to continue the vibes because it sounded fun. And then….. completely downhill.
I had arrived back at their place before she did, but as soon as I saw them go in I knocked. When I walked in, she was pale faced up on the floor, non verbal, pretty much motionless, and staring at the ceiling. I was like oh no… it seemed like she got a bit too much to drink. I waited patiently there for a few mins, unsure of what to do as I had just drove for 45 mins and I was still 25 mins in the opposite direction away from home.
I kind of just sat around, and hoped that she would sober up. I asked if she was drunk… she said no. She ran to her bathroom multiple times while her husband (a complete socially awkward case himself) tried to take care of her while she threw up. I asked her if she puked and she also said no. So I didn’t really know what to do. I was trying to offer support/ empathy but she just kept denying any claims of anything being amiss. Her husband left to pick up a pizza and I probably just should’ve left but I’m telling you I had no idea how to exit their house without making it weird or awkward. And I also was hungry. So I just stayed… and waited for the pizza.
What happened in those 20-30 mins, I don’t even know if I can fully explain. She just became… so FUCKING WEIRD. she clearly was embarrassed that I was seeing her drunk, and I think was trying to over compensate. But she just turned into an absolute freak show and I’ve never been more uncomfortable in my life.
She started hoola hooping in my face, and making these weird gremlin faces and noises at me, fell to the floor, rolled round on the floor while continuing to make the noises, convulsed on the floor, but tried to do it in a funny way, tried to make an interpretive dance for me… I’ve truly never experienced something so uncomfortable in my life. I probably do sound like an asshole, but I swear you would just have to be there to see how a) gross and b) weird and actually scary it was. I was genuinely frightened.
I’ve never seen anyone act like that and I didn’t want to make her more uncomfortable or weird by showing her how clearly uncomfortable I actually was. so I just sat there and tried to laugh. But it probably came off as more of a grimace. And for the record, this woman is 33. I am 26. It was just. Obscene.
And she’s tried to act like and say multiple times that she’s like my “big sister”. Now I’ve seen a lot of drunk behavior, but not this. I wolfed down my pizza, and so did she, and she started to get even more philosophical and weird on me, showing me songs and art which were quite frankly some of the worst things I’ve ever heard in my life, and I left as soon as I could.
I was so shaken and disturbed coming away from this, because like I said earlier, I thought she was a cool girl, but honestly her behavior and lack of control over herself completely terrified me. And it’s not like she was drinking liquor, it was just damn IPAs. And I just did not know what to do.
Some details I will try to add to this story, even though I know it’s monolithic at this point , is that 2 months prior to this she had gotten fired from the studio she worked at.
She had a mental breakdown during class because the manager was being mean to her, and he fired her on the spot. I remember being so angry with the owner, (honestly he IS a piece of shit human being) but I thought he was being sexist by calling her mentally unstable and I thought the way he handled things was unfair.
I went so far as to boycott the studio and completely remove myself from it in support of her and followed her to her new one. After the drunk #2 incident, I didn’t hang out with her very much, and only saw her during her class as I was locked into a certain number of classes I had paid for.
I remember her telling me that she had just started at ANOTHER studio, and got fired 3 days after on her birthday and she was talking about how unfair it was and how much of an asshole that new girl was for firing her… and I believed her. AGAIN.
I went so far as to block that girl on Instagram too, but deep down I kind of knew that she had probably just been fired bc let’s face it… as I was starting to discover, she WAS a lot. and the studio was in an upper class area , catered towards more upper echelon people, and I just don’t think she was fitting that image. I lent her an empathetic ear, because that’s all I would want in that situation.
But where she fucked up was sending me screenshot proof of the text exchange between her and that girl, thinking I would take her side, and later sending me screenshots of another conversation she had with the OTHER manager. She told me that this new girl fired her for bringing her husband to class. In my mind I was like, oh no, is she racist!?! Because her husband was black. But no, that’s not what I read at all.
It was the most reasonable, level headed response to someone ever, and laid out multiple offenses and reasons she didn’t want her at the studio. The reasons were honestly so embarrassing that I don’t know why she would send it to me and think I would side with her. She recently also sent me messages with the other boss and the last thing he says to her is “I hope you get help for your mental illness because whatever you have is serious and will impact all your relationships and business and things that you do”. And honestly I can now say in retrospect that those were the truest words ever spoken.
When I read these texts, I had a look back at my whole relationship with and how she would always paint everyone else to be the villain and how everyone is so mean to HER… and the whole time the common denominator was her. It was always her. And it made me rethink everything.
I’ve even had extensive conversations with some of the other people on her trip that were talking shit and couldn’t stand her and they all told me the same things. How it seemed like she was the coolest person ever and had her shit together and seemed like she was going places… but deep down she was just an absolute mess and pushed everyone away from her. And I no longer felt like I was going crazy.
But like I said, she formed a really close bond with me (I think from her perspective) and said she felt like my big sister and family, and shared all these stories about her feeling isolated and shut out by people, but now here I am, doing the exact same thing to her. Icing her out of my life. And I just wanna ask you guys…
Am the asshole?
submitted by astrohoe11 to AITAH [link] [comments]
Wow, this one might me a long one.
So I moved to (undisclosed location) sometime in the beginning of last year. When I moved here I really had no friends but became heavily involved in this yoga studio I went to and slowly but surely started to make friends/acquaintances with the teacher that instructed me.
From afar she seemed super cool and I became pretty enthralled with her and her life. I would look forward so heavily to going to her classes every week and was quite intrigued by her. I thought she was funny, bubbly, spunky, cool, and always made jokes during class that made me laugh. As months went by I found myself wanting to get closer and closer to her, and she even invited me out one time to one of her “events” she was hosting. Here’s the thing;
It seemed like we had a lot in common and was just generally craving camaraderie and connection. I felt a sense of belonging with her and wanted to expand that energy in my life, and wanted to do anything I could to get closer to her for those reasons. But I guess this is where we have the first red flag;
One day after class, she extended an invitation to me to a meet up of sorts, (I’m being sparing with details just out of fear she might read this) and when she invited me it seemed like it was gonna be this big thing with lots of people invited, and just in general in talking to her it seemed as if she was very well connected and respected within her community, had lots of friends and connects, and I thought this was gonna be a huge thing that I was even lucky to be invited to. I was super stoked and exited about it.
However when the day of the event came, I was super tired and slow to getting up that morning. I figured I would just make my way over whenever I could since it seemed causal and like you could drop in whenever. I also figured there would be more than enough people that no one would really even notice my arrival or departure. (Plus, sometimes it’s chic to be fashionably late ;) ). Well…. I was most definitely wrong.
When I showed up I heard someone excitedly shout my name, which was her, and she waved me down to the “meet up”…. There was literally only one person there and it had been going on for 2+ hours. I was definitely a bit unnerved, but also didn’t want to be rude, and like I said I was just kind of happy to be there and be getting invited to things. But it was kinda like, damn…. Are these all the friends you have?
I had dressed up and looked cute but they were just kind of wearing whatever and I felt awkward and overdressed and also embarrassed now that I was even this late because it was clearly much more intimate than I expected and my arrival/absence was DEFINITELY felt. We had chatted a bit and that was cool but then I remember her confessing me that she had cried to her husband earlier that morning that she was scared nobody was going to show up and how thrilled she was that not only one, but TWO people had showed up and that it felt like she had friends. I wasn’t really sure what to say or make of that.
She also…. The whole time (and mind you, this is our first legitimate interaction out of yoga class) just kind of kept talking maniacally AT me, not to me, and was coming off almost even manic, and she had formed a white crust of spit around her mouth probably from talking so much that I couldn’t look away from. To say the least, I was a bit disturbed coming away from this interaction but I just kept telling myself that I was being too judgmental of her and to give it a chance and that maybe she was just hyper that day and that I had probably had unintentional embarrassing hygiene moments as well. So I keep going to class and that’s that.
There were several other red flag moments between this first interaction and the next one, mostly just her incredibly cringey social media presence that I genuinely almost couldn’t stand to see without feeling like I was withering away inside, but maybe I’ll save that for later. It’s almost like I couldn’t just see that the person I thought was so cool in class and the person I was seeing her be online and outside of class were the same people. But I digress.
She had actually ended up inviting me to go with her on one of her international yoga retreats, and I was actually very excited about this. I had very little time with her in between classes, and my attraction (but also repulsion) with her was growing stronger and I wanted to figure her out and see what she was really about and what the pull I was feeling towards her was about. Plus, I love travelling and just thought it would be fun.
I had a pretty good time, but we didn’t get to talk much, HOWEVER, I do remember this distinct point during the trip where it was myself, 2-3 other fiends I had made, her brother, and her “best friend” who had happened to be her brother’s Gf in a room together, talking. the brother, the best friend, and the other friend I made just all completely started talking shit about her and I was so confused.
I felt super hurt by this actually, bc I felt like I had a inexplicable bond with the teacher who had invited me, she was the reason we were all there in that beautiful place, and I just couldn’t understand why they were choosing to be so negative about someone I thought they had claimed (at least by title) to love. They would say things like “I can’t fucking stand your sister” (one of the friends I made to the brother) and everyone would just sigh and put their hands in their head and be like “I know…. I know. It’s a lot. She’s a lot”. And I didn’t have anything to add to the conversation because I was just so confused and I knew the girl would just be so upset if she heard them saying this. Anyway… that confusion stuck with me for a while after.
Fast forward maybe a month or two, I started hanging out with her more regularly myself outside of class. I would say this is when we became more “friends”. She would invite me to other teachers classes and we would talk a lot about our lives.
I learned how she felt about her close friend and family connections, and how she often felt hurt and betrayed by people close to her and how some of her friends were actually really shady. I just got a general sense of her feeling scapegoated and libeled against by ppl that got close to her and how she had walls up for that reason.
She also shared to me that most of her family was cut off, with the exception of her brother who she had recently rekindled a connection with, hence why he was on that trip. I felt very bad for her and wanted to be a source of comfort and support, and she would often comment on how she felt a sense of camaraderie with me since I also (LITERALLY) had no family and how we have to make our chosen family. This was a sweet sentiment, for sure, but I was still sussing out how I felt about her.
So one day, a mutual friend that had been on the trip with us was having a birthday party and I guess that she was invited to it, too. She sat down next to me and I was SUPER excited to see her as I was craving her energy and hadn’t seen her in some time. But then… idk. She had had a lot to drink. I’m fully aware that she’s kind of a quirky individual, and has a way of socializing which I can sometimes find a bit uncomfortable or even intense, (like the first meetup I spoke of) but this time it was even more and seemed to be heightened by the drinking.
Her husband was sitting on her other side and kept trying to interject and insinuate that maybe she was doing a bit much, but I think she was drunk enough to the point that she just found it funny and had no awareness of how she was coming off. There’s not even a way I can describe it really, but she just seemed a bit obsessive over me and kept making jokes that were literally not funny and seemed to have lost all ability to read the room. I also had noticed that she had only had TWO beers and was acting like this already which I found… really strange.
So at some point she goes to the bathroom, and I also get in line for the bathroom about 5 mins later. When I get up to the bathroom, she’s still in there, and there’s a line of about 2 or 3 people ahead of me. When she exits the bathroom she immediately spots me and rushes up to me and just starts… drunkenly spewing.
I can’t even remember what she was saying, but we were in a pretty high class establishment and I remember her gushing over me and was saying “I just want to let you know that I don’t really have friends or let people close to me in my circle but I just want to let you know that YOU are officially in my circle and you have earned friend status to me and I’ve let you in my circle…” or something like that. And I just kept thinking, who tf even says that??? I’m pretty sure the last time I checked that friendship is a two way street and it’s not just a title we bestow onto some “lucky” person and that’s that. Like girl… let ME decide if I want to be friends too first.
It was partially that, and also the way she was drunkenly spewing was so awkward and embarrassing bc I could tell all the other women in line were like who tf is this bitch and why is she saying all this weird stuff and like, does she even know you?? Lol. Just a very odd interaction which again, I kind of wrote off, but the unsettling feeling kind of just kept growing after that point.
Then, the time that I REALLY knew something was up came up about a month later, but there are still some key details of this story that are missing. Perhaps I will discuss them later.
SO. About a month later, she invited me last minute to this concert of sorts. When I got there, I was super excited to be there, the vibes were amazing and we were having so much fun. But she had definitely had a lot, A LOT to drink. I didn’t mind at first, because everyone there seemed severely under the influence, but she would just start randomly kind of lashing out at people in the crowd and she thought it was funny? She first loudly and audibly started making fun of some guys shoes in front of us, and was trying to laugh with me as if I would join in, but when his girl friend turned around and shot her a dirty look, she had the nerve to be self conscious and mad about it. She would loudly poke fun at other people in the crowd too, but not in a ha-ha way, just in a straight up mean and asshole way and I could not understand why she would even do that or why she thought that was funny.
Again, I kind of just awkwardly laughed and brushed it off. But when all was said and done and the concert was closing, she enthusiastically invited me back to go to her house and soak in her hot tub. I kept saying are you sure?? But she was like please, PLEASE come, we have weed, we’ll smoke you out and other things and I wanted to continue the vibes because it sounded fun. And then….. completely downhill.
I had arrived back at their place before she did, but as soon as I saw them go in I knocked. When I walked in, she was pale faced up on the floor, non verbal, pretty much motionless, and staring at the ceiling. I was like oh no… it seemed like she got a bit too much to drink. I waited patiently there for a few mins, unsure of what to do as I had just drove for 45 mins and I was still 25 mins in the opposite direction away from home.
I kind of just sat around, and hoped that she would sober up. I asked if she was drunk… she said no. She ran to her bathroom multiple times while her husband (a complete socially awkward case himself) tried to take care of her while she threw up. I asked her if she puked and she also said no. So I didn’t really know what to do. I was trying to offer support/ empathy but she just kept denying any claims of anything being amiss. Her husband left to pick up a pizza and I probably just should’ve left but I’m telling you I had no idea how to exit their house without making it weird or awkward. And I also was hungry. So I just stayed… and waited for the pizza.
What happened in those 20-30 mins, I don’t even know if I can fully explain. She just became… so FUCKING WEIRD. she clearly was embarrassed that I was seeing her drunk, and I think was trying to over compensate. But she just turned into an absolute freak show and I’ve never been more uncomfortable in my life.
She started hoola hooping in my face, and making these weird gremlin faces and noises at me, fell to the floor, rolled round on the floor while continuing to make the noises, convulsed on the floor, but tried to do it in a funny way, tried to make an interpretive dance for me… I’ve truly never experienced something so uncomfortable in my life. I probably do sound like an asshole, but I swear you would just have to be there to see how a) gross and b) weird and actually scary it was. I was genuinely frightened.
I’ve never seen anyone act like that and I didn’t want to make her more uncomfortable or weird by showing her how clearly uncomfortable I actually was. so I just sat there and tried to laugh. But it probably came off as more of a grimace. And for the record, this woman is 33. I am 26. It was just. Obscene.
And she’s tried to act like and say multiple times that she’s like my “big sister”. Now I’ve seen a lot of drunk behavior, but not this. I wolfed down my pizza, and so did she, and she started to get even more philosophical and weird on me, showing me songs and art which were quite frankly some of the worst things I’ve ever heard in my life, and I left as soon as I could.
I was so shaken and disturbed coming away from this, because like I said earlier, I thought she was a cool girl, but honestly her behavior and lack of control over herself completely terrified me. And it’s not like she was drinking liquor, it was just damn IPAs. And I just did not know what to do.
Some details I will try to add to this story, even though I know it’s monolithic at this point , is that 2 months prior to this she had gotten fired from the studio she worked at.
She had a mental breakdown during class because the manager was being mean to her, and he fired her on the spot. I remember being so angry with the owner, (honestly he IS a piece of shit human being) but I thought he was being sexist by calling her mentally unstable and I thought the way he handled things was unfair.
I went so far as to boycott the studio and completely remove myself from it in support of her and followed her to her new one. After the drunk #2 incident, I didn’t hang out with her very much, and only saw her during her class as I was locked into a certain number of classes I had paid for.
I remember her telling me that she had just started at ANOTHER studio, and got fired 3 days after on her birthday and she was talking about how unfair it was and how much of an asshole that new girl was for firing her… and I believed her. AGAIN.
I went so far as to block that girl on Instagram too, but deep down I kind of knew that she had probably just been fired bc let’s face it… as I was starting to discover, she WAS a lot. and the studio was in an upper class area , catered towards more upper echelon people, and I just don’t think she was fitting that image. I lent her an empathetic ear, because that’s all I would want in that situation.
But where she fucked up was sending me screenshot proof of the text exchange between her and that girl, thinking I would take her side, and later sending me screenshots of another conversation she had with the OTHER manager. She told me that this new girl fired her for bringing her husband to class. In my mind I was like, oh no, is she racist!?! Because her husband was black. But no, that’s not what I read at all.
It was the most reasonable, level headed response to someone ever, and laid out multiple offenses and reasons she didn’t want her at the studio. The reasons were honestly so embarrassing that I don’t know why she would send it to me and think I would side with her. She recently also sent me messages with the other boss and the last thing he says to her is “I hope you get help for your mental illness because whatever you have is serious and will impact all your relationships and business and things that you do”. And honestly I can now say in retrospect that those were the truest words ever spoken.
When I read these texts, I had a look back at my whole relationship with and how she would always paint everyone else to be the villain and how everyone is so mean to HER… and the whole time the common denominator was her. It was always her. And it made me rethink everything.
I’ve even had extensive conversations with some of the other people on her trip that were talking shit and couldn’t stand her and they all told me the same things. How it seemed like she was the coolest person ever and had her shit together and seemed like she was going places… but deep down she was just an absolute mess and pushed everyone away from her. And I no longer felt like I was going crazy.
But like I said, she formed a really close bond with me (I think from her perspective) and said she felt like my big sister and family, and shared all these stories about her feeling isolated and shut out by people, but now here I am, doing the exact same thing to her. Icing her out of my life. And I just wanna ask you guys…
Am the asshole?
2024.05.21 18:30 yelpvinegar The 7 Types of Startup Founders: Why It Matters To You
What’s the #1 thing every founder needs to know?
I’ll give you a few minutes to make a list — top of mind might include sales, marketing, technology, product management (especially product-market fit), technical skills, fundraising, team building, leadership, management, finance, and planning/executing strategic growth and scaling.Sure… but, sorry, none of that is the correct answer. Because, of course, you know that founders typically are expected to be jacks of all trades. So yes, to all of the above, but that’s not the secret sauce.
The #1 thing every founder needs to know is… themself.
Here’s the truth: founders start companies, and entrepreneurs build them. While not every entrepreneur is a founder (think franchise owners), every founder is an entrepreneur (at least initially).
If you’re like me, you are a forward-obsessed founder. That means where you are now is always building toward where you want to go. That person is always an entrepreneur. Once the company is started, you’ll do what it takes — including relinquishing control — to keep it growing.
Does that sting? We founders think of our companies as our babies, but statistics say we’re likely to be the ones kicked out of the nest. Also, research shows that in the US, only 14 out of the top selling 500 companies still have the original founder running the company. And the Harvard Business Review reports that most founders relinquish control long before their companies go public — and that four out of five are forced to step down as CEO.
It doesn’t have to be that way if you have one critical attribute: self-awareness. That way, you can decide as your company grows how you want to evolve your role in the overall day-to-day running of the company (i.e., learn, delegate, hire, move on). And ultimately, you can make better choices at critical growth junctures in your business progression.
So, to help you become more self-aware, it’s helpful to understand the different types of founders. Let’s dive in.
The Types of Founders
A couple of notes before we get into specifics:- Much like any other classification, there are gray areas, so you (and many of the examples I share in this article) may fit into more than one category.
- Some traits are common to all founders, such as being open to innovation, passionate about their project, risk-takers, etc. But some founders excel or even over-index in certain attributes, so that’s what you’ll see in the different types.
1. The Solo Founder
Traits:- Fiercely independent
- Self-assured
- Strong belief in their vision/idea
- Business strongly tied to skill set and experience
- Resilient (i.e., can withstand feelings of loneliness)
- Freedom
- Complete control
- Learn a lot
- Solo-founded companies statistically have a higher failure rate
- Harder to raise money/VCs are more reticent
- Health impacts: burnout, loneliness, etc.
- Attention is divided because you wear all the hats (marketing, sales, building your product, finances, fundraising, prospecting for new customers, etc.)
- Complete responsibility for all aspects of the business
Ten years ago, in 2012, when she was just 38, Sara Blakely became the world’s youngest self-made female billionaire. Her business, built on a significant industry gap (the lack of comfortable, effective shapewear) and her incredible sales hustle, also benefited greatly from Blakely’s abundant self-awareness. Here’s her advice to solo founders at a 2020 business conference:
“I tell people as soon as you can afford to hire your weaknesses, do it… As soon as I could afford to hire someone to do more of the operations side of the business, I did. As an entrepreneur, one of the biggest gifts you can give yourself is to stay in your lane.”In other words, know what your Green Zone is and play there.
If you’re like Blakely, it’s usually big ideas and sales ability (she could easily qualify as a Visionary Founder, too) or operations and execution (what Blakely realized she needed help with).
Pro tip: If you’re a solo founder, you’ll likely want to lean into an entrepreneurial framework like the Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS) to help you define and settle into which side you skew toward.
2. The Visionary Founder (or Co-founders)
Traits:- Driven by a big idea
- Disruptive — recognizes opportunities to upend traditional norms
- Focused and clear
- Persistent
- Natural salesperson
- Can see the big picture
- Collaborative (esp. In co-founder scenario)
- Motivated by the impact they have — more than $$ alone
- Passionate about their work
- Aren’t easily derailed — failures are expected, and mistakes are not made twice
- Inspired leadership
- So focused on the big picture that they may miss important details
- A visionary idea doesn’t automatically = visionary leadership
- Disconnected from reality at times
- Easily bored when the mundane takes priority
- May not plan succession well
- Unrealistic expectations
- Poor communication
Considering that Steve Jobs’ name is pretty much synonymous with “visionary,” I don’t think I need to list more than the products and industries Jobs’ revolutionized at Apple and beyond — Apple Computers, iPod (iTunes), iPad, iPhone, Pixar, iCloud — with many products and points in between. George Lucas, from whom Jobs bought the Graphics Group at Lucasfilm and renamed it “Pixar,” perfectly summarizes his superpower:
“The magic of Steve was that while others simply accepted the status quo, he saw the true potential in everything he touched and never compromised on that vision.”Steve Wozniak was the technological yin to Jobs’ sales and marketing yang, bringing the vision of a computer with a graphic interface to life. From the visionary files, “Woz” also invented the first programmable universal remote and was an early innovator of wireless GPS (thanks to his clever dogs who routinely evaded electronic fences).
3. The Serial Disruptor
Traits:- Varied interests & capabilities
- Easily bored — desires variety and change
- Optimistic
- Extremely innovative
- High threshold for pain
- Accepting of failure
- Self-reliant
- Diverse capabilities
- Bold vision
- Motivated by the impact they have — more than $$ alone
- Variety of experiences
- Flexibility and freedom
- Diversification
- Tons of opportunities for creative expression
- Greater earning opportunities
- Disrupts industries
- Attracts high-quality talent
- High risk
- Difficulties finding trustworthy partners/can get stuck helming something when you want to move on
- Multitudes of people reliant on you
- Divided focus
- Ego-driven pursuits
Like him or loathe him, Elon Musk is perhaps the most prolific (and successful) serial founder of all time with startups including Tesla, SpaceX, The Boring Company, and Neuralink, among others. His drive to design opportunities to evolve humanity has redefined both hustle culture and the art of serial entrepreneurship.
For serial founders, having a set of principles is key to their success. In Musk’s case, his use of “first principles” — reducing a process to its essential parts — has served him well, from helping him figure out how to make rockets cheaper and reusable (SpaceX) to shifting the narrative of electric vehicles (Tesla).
4. The Engineer
Traits:- Engineer by experience and nature
- Technically savvy
- Able to problem-solve technology-driven issues (not just with the product but also operations-wise)
- Strong desire to not just innovate but also to accelerate progress
- Expansive vision of how technology can solve common problems
- Level-headed
- Agile, fast learners
- Focused on execution
- Pragmatic approach
- Own technology
- Problems are solved quickly
- Able to employ technology to reduce time to market
- Solutions for products can become new products in their own right
- Not well versed in other crucial areas (i.e., sales, marketing)
- Over-index on having lower Emotional Intelligence (EQ)
- Because they can learn quickly, so may get stuck playing outside of the green zone
Much like the other examples I’m sharing, Mark Zuckerberg’s story has been widely told, so you probably know about his development of Facebook. But at his core, Zuckerberg is an engineering prodigy and geek. At just 13 in 1997, he built “ZuckNet,” which enabled the family’s home computers to communicate via Ping (a precursor of AOL’s Instant Messenger) with his father’s dental office computers. He was using AI in his senior year in high school, so the roots of his Meta(verse) focus today are apparent.
A common weakness for engineers is they tend to have a lower EQ, which has been well-researched. As a former engineer, I understand how logic and technology come easier than understanding human behavior. This is why tech founders should seek out mentors early and bring in competent leaders with high EQ and leadership skills — for example, Zuckerberg credits his former COO of 14 years, Sheryl Sandberg, for turning the company into a multi-billion dollar company.
5. The Personality Founder
Traits:- Charismatic and gregarious
- Attracts a vast audience
- Influential
- Ambitious
- Forward-thinking
- Inwardly motivated (responds to a “calling”)
- Excellent storytellers
- Authentic and honest (ideally 😉)
- Has a built-in audience and established social platforms
- Likely has pre-existing wealth (can help fund the business/mitigate startup money woes)
- Can use their power for good; disruptive in a positive way
- Needs to find the right people to trust
- Can’t just be the “face” of the business; needs to accrue real business chops
- Celebrity and influence status don’t equal quality products
- Difficult or impossible for the founder to leave
I’m using Oprah as an example, as her products are an outgrowth of her — her eponymous talk show, which ran for 25 years, the OWN network, O Magazine, her book club, and a variety of charitable endeavors comprise her vast empire. But of course, we know plenty of other personality brands that have racked up billions in sales and even transformed, from the Kardashians/Jenners, to Bethany Frankel and Ryan Reynolds (just watch Deadpool 3 to see his brands — coming in 2023).
In today’s age of influence, we’ve seen a surge of personality brands and founders who leverage built-in audiences and communities to scale quickly. All these names are business mavericks in their own right, but many didn’t start out this way — they deftly utilize their charisma and ability to entertain to shape their brands and pave the way to success.
6. The Accidental Founder
Traits:- Independent
- Resourceful
- Necessity-driven
- Follow their desire/passion
- Creative
- Willing to take risks
- A deep belief in what they’re doing
- Solves real-world problems based on personal experience
- Discover they’re much happier running their own show
- Turns skills, vocation, or avocation into a profitable business
- May not have the business chops
- Reluctant business person — may not actually want to run their own business
- Needs to find the right people to trust
- Overwhelm
Patagonia founder Yvon Chouinard has been in the news lately for giving away his company to fight climate change. He’s an OG accidental entrepreneur whose passion for rock climbing led him to develop reusable pitons (rock climbing spikes) and, later, heavy-duty shirts. Famously Chouinard called himself a “dirtbag climber” and didn’t want to become a business mogul. Sixty-five years later, this accidental founder’s company is valued at $3 billion, and his latest innovation is a way of giving away the profits of a company to continue his contribution to society — protecting and preserving the natural world.
As I always say, there are riches in the niches, and accidental entrepreneurs are the leading type of founders to discover a marketplace with little or no competition.
7. The Intentional Founder
Traits:- Purpose-driven
- Strong ideals and values
- Passionate about the bigger picture impacts
- Socially conscious
- Clear and focused on the brand mission
- An empathetic approach to the product/the company
- Can educate, empower, and motivate others (i.e., team, customers)
- Employees are statistically more satisfied and likely to stay
- Commitment to a higher ideal engenders more loyalty and trust with the general public (customers)
- Moving from individual ideals to a group effort is tricky
- Difficult to find employees with perfectly aligned values
- Might not have the business experience to set the organization up for long-term success
- Purpose-driven (belief) isn’t the same as purpose-enabled (capability)
- Might be challenging for the company to survive the loss of the founder
While Jessica Alba does have some touches of a Personality Founder (she is an actor) and an Accidental Founder (an allergic reaction to detergent made her worry about her new baby’s sensitive skin), she is an excellent example of an intentional founder. Back in 2008, when Alba had that allergic reaction, influencer marketing wasn’t what it is today — plus, she had some success but was by no means a household name. Ditto for eco-conscious consumer packaged goods — a plus, sure, but didn’t have the same urgency and importance it does today. Alba then spent years researching ingredients in everyday products and even went to DC to lobby for updates to the 1976 Toxic Substances Control Act. Convinced that consumers need safe, affordable, environmentally friendly products for kids and home, Alba launched The Honest Company in 2011.
Now, she did have seasoned co-founders, her own wealth to use out the gates, and VC support shortly after that, but it has always been Alba’s commitment to and alignment with the brand’s core principles that have kept the brand growing and thriving — today, as a publicly traded company with a 2021 $412.8 IPO.
What type of founder are you? Definitely feel free to share in the comments.
2024.05.21 18:28 BleepBlimpBop $RILY DD: Long List of Short Seller Claims --- DEBUNKED with proof!
Ever-shifting Short Seller Claims
The short sellers attacking RILY in 2023-2024 have been relentless, with an ever-shifting list of wild accusations.It's sickening to watch them compile a never-ending list of baseless wild theories and claims to support their short positions, which are demonstrably false. But as each is proved false, they pivot to new claims, and/or change the goalposts.
The sheer volume of shifting claims makes it hard to track how despotic they are with their "platform," and how many falsehoods they've spun. Even for someone who watched it in real-time, for almost a year
Compiled & Debunked
Sunlight kills vampires. To that end, I've compiled a list of (i) claimants (ii) claims (iii) reality (iv) definitive source proving reality.Why Did They Target RILY?
One of the most vocal short sellers, Nate Koppikar (who also introduced Marc Cohodes to the "opportunity") has a fund Orso Partners. Based on their SEC registration document, this is their investment thesis:"The Account’s investment objectives are to achieve capital appreciation primarily by identifying and selling short marketable equity securities of underfollowed and complex companies with misleading or corrective disclosures through a research-intensive process. The Account employs a short-biased investment strategy with an emphasis on primarily small to mid-cap companies that are underfollowed and complex (i.e., companies with market capitalizations of less than $5 billion which the market does not yet have a wellformed bull and/or bear perspective)."
RILY fits their description. The icing on the cake was the relatively large market cap, and the relatively small float. Given extremely high insider ownership (32.9% of shares per the proxy), and limitations on when and how insiders can trade, the "free float" of the stock (i.e., the shares that regularly trade) is very small for the size of the company. Moreover, the setup would only get better - given insiders have consistently used their free cash to buy additional shares hand-over-fist (further reducing the float).
That meant, with relatively small amounts of capital, the short sellers could shove around the stock price. That ability to move price opens another profit avenue - taking large derivative positions (buying puts, and selling calls), and shoving the price (or allowing it to drift up) to profit all along the way. It looked so good, the stock has been the highest-shorted on the US indices for several months. Even after the release of the 10-K, shares remain "hard to borrow" with elevated borrow fees.
Debunked Claims
The claims made by vocal short sellers could fill a book. Most were outrageous and fanciful when they were proposed. Virtually all have objectively debunked. This isn't a comprehensive list, as their claims are too numerous and varied. But it paints an illuminating picture.With a track record this poor, one would expect the short sellers to exit - rather than continuing to spin new narratives. Perhaps the continued attacks are their exit strategy to avoid bankruptcy... Well, #Bullish.
With the highest short interest of all US stocks (albeit likely decreased from the highs of ~76% of the float), I think this is more than ripe for a return to fair value - or well above, if a short squeeze occurs.
Note that the list below deliberately excludes three types of posts/claims from the short sellers:
A) Juvenile personal attacks and attempts to character assassinate and dox a long list of people (RILY CEO, RILY new hires, RILY clients, Marcum the auditor, Marcum's lead audit professional, any firm or individual publicly posting a bull thesis on RILY, etc.).
B) Those that make no objective claims, but simply exist as a product of malicious degeneracy (like pictures of roasted pigs in ovens labeled Bryant Riley the CEO, photoshopped pictures of the CEO in prison chains next to convicted felons, video of an obese woman barely able to walk being gored by a bull labeled Mrs. Riley the CEO's wife, etc.).
C) Those that are impossible for short sellers to know, and impossible to objectively verify (e.g., Marc Cohodes claiming a single RILY trader front runs the CEOs personal short trades in front of clients taking following the firm's bullish advice on those stocks, to guarantee profits).
| Claimant | Claim | Reality |
|---|---|---|
| 1) Wolfpack | Wolfpack “RILY will record investment losses of up to ~$700 million in 2023” FALSE 10-K | FALSE |
| 2) Wolfpack | “new loan to CORZQ will work out just as badly as the last and end in default (again) before June 2023” | FALSE Repaid in full, early, on 1/6/2024. |
| 3) Wolfpack | “The coupon rate on RILY’s seven issues of baby bonds ranges from 5% to 6.75%, which we believe to be far too low to compensate investors for the existential risk that accompanies these securities.” | FALSE Full redemption of May 2024 came early. Far more than sufficient cash to cover debt payments. |
| 4) Wolfpack | “According to our analysis, 4 of RILY’s largest 7 corporate borrowers with outstanding loan balances of $295.3 million are at a high risk of default, or in the case of CORZQ, is already in default.” | FALSE a. Core Scientific Inc. repaid early and in full ($111MM of the “risk”) b. Exela Technologies repaid term loan in full ($55.8MM of the “risk”) c. Arena Group Holdings debt retired in full ($99MM of the “risk”). Publicly disclosed in the most recent 10-K for each company (search for "Riley" in the filing) |
| 5) Wolfpack | “RILY’s NAV is Far Below the $1.1 Billion Minimum NAV Requirement That Is Required for the Nomura Credit Agreement Putting RILY at Risk of Collapse in 2023” | FALSE RILY is in full compliance with the Nomura credit agreement. Moreover, reflecting the strength of the relationship, Nomura even granted a no-fee extension when the 10-K filing was delayed. Also see 10-K for current status. |
| 6) Wolfpack | “Over $200 Million of the Goodwill and Intangible Assets on RILY’s Balance Sheet is Attributable to its Telecom Rollup, which is Centered on Dial-up and DSL Internet:” - criticizing them as dying businesses with no value | FALSE Segment is extremely valuable. From just 2020 to 2023, the communications segment has returned over $212.2MM in adjusted EBITDA. |
| 7) Nate Koppikar (TheFriendlyBear) + Bill Abbate Jr. (JrAbbate), Various | RILY committed fraud with loans and closing the FRG acquisition. "The fact $RILY closed the FRG deal while hiding the Kahn loan - an all PIK defaulted loan backed by $FRG shares - is a Hall of Fame worthy act of fraud. I thought after Enron/Sarbox we couldn't have something like this happen in US markets." | FALSE A law firm led an internal investigation, and an independent external investigation both found “The review confirmed what the Company previously disclosed: that the Company and its executives, including Bryant Riley, had no involvement with, or knowledge of, any of the alleged misconduct concerning Prophecy.” “The results of the independent investigation confirmed that the Company and its executives had no involvement with, or knowledge of, any of the alleged misconduct concerning Mr. Kahn or any of his affiliates. This independent investigation was conducted subsequent to the Company's February 22, 2024 disclosure of the internal review performed with the assistance of Sullivan & Cromwell LLP as outside counsel.” Also see 10-K |
| 8) Marc Cohodes (AlderlaneEggs), ParrotCapital, Bill Abbate Jr. (JrAbbate), Various | The 10-K will never be filed. They can't produce audited financials. | FALSE Audited 10-K was filed. Delay was due to Audit committee fulfilling its responsibilities and proactively conducting investigations (internal and external). |
| 9) Marc Cohodes (AlderLaneEggs) + Nate Koppikar (TheFriendlyBear) + Bill Abbate Jr. (JrAbbate) + ParrotCapital | Sullivan and Cromwell knew about Massive Fraud, and did a "sham investigation" | FALSE Sullivan and Cromwell is one of the most respected law firms, in the US and worldwide. "Sullivan & Cromwell continues to lead all law firm advisers in announced and completed global deals in 2023, according to Bloomberg and LSEG. The Firm advised on global announced deals totaling more than $345 billion, representing a 12.1 percent market share, per Bloomberg, and on completed global deals totaling more than $431 billion, representing a 16.9 percent market share, per LSEG." They're not compromising themselves for a relatively small client. |
| 10) Marc Cohodes (AlderLaneEggs), Nate Koppikar (TheFriendlyBear), Bill Abbate Jr. (JrAbbate), Parrot Capital | Marcum is enabling Massive Fraud | FALSE Marcum is a respected audit firm, and 13th largest by revenue. "Marcum LLP advanced into the Top 15 in the 2023 Vault Accounting list of top-ranked accounting firms. Marcum climbed six levels to the No. 13 ranking overall and earned a ranking of 14 in prestige. The Firm also won Top 20 rankings across all Practice Area, Quality of Life, and Diversity categories, including several new classifications added this year." |
| 11) Marc Cohodes (AlderLaneEggs) | Nomura is enabling Massive Fraud | FALSE Nomura is a global financial services company, and the oldest brokerage firm in Japan. They operate in a highly regulated industry. They're not putting themselves on the line for a relatively small client. |
| 12) Parrot Capital | "The list of $RILY enablers is massive: Marcum LLP, Sullivan and Cromwell, Seeking Alpha, Holbrook Holdings, $AX Axos Bank, Many, many more." | FALSE There's no global conspiracy whereby these companies - all respected law firms, auditors, banks, and media outlets - are collectively colluding to enable RILY to commit fraud. Requires only two brain cells and one functioning synapse to know there's no grand collusion cabal between these disparate companies. |
| 13) Marc Cohodes (AlderLaneEggs), Jonathan Weil at WSJ | Franchise Group shares used to secure Kahn loan: "It is unclear whether Kahn pledged the same shares twice—to both Prophecy and B. Riley." | FALSE As stated by the company, Simple UCC search disproves this. UCC # 202302295747 |
| 14) Marc Cohodes (AlderLaneEggs) | “Bryant Riley is on the Road, telling people the ‘audit partner at Marcum left’ and that ‘I have made mistakes’ “ | FALSE Marcum audit partner was working on the audit the whole time; the original audit partner had hit the 5yr SEC rule, so he was never working on this year’s audit. |
| 15) Marc Cohodes (AlderLaneEggs) | "So it turns out James La Rocca was Fired by MarcumLLP If nothing was wrong with prior $RILY Audits, why is he gone? This will be great in discovery of what exactly went on. | FALSE Marcum audit partner was working on the audit the whole time; the original audit partner had hit the 5yr SEC rule, so he was never working on this year’s audit. |
| 16) Koppikar (TheFriendlyBear) | “So Bryant Riley did disseminate MNPI back in March” in response to Cohodes claim that he told people the Marcum partner left | FALSE Cohodes claimed Bryant Riley was telling people the Marcum auditor left. Koppikar called that disseminating MNPI. Cohodes statement was false (and thus Koppikar's derivate claim is also false). A different auditor worked on RILY, as Marcum follows the SEC rules; the lead auditor can only serve the client for 5 consecutive years. As such, Koppikar’s derivative claim of disseminating MNPI is false. |
| 17) Koppikar (TheFriendlyBear) | “He appears to still not be familiar with the voting interest model of consolidation… why is a life science and tech partner signing an extremely complex investment company / broker dealer audit ???” i.e., auditor is unqualified | FALSE The auditor is fully qualified. Marcum is a highly respected auditor; they don't hire unqualified people, or assign them to clients they're unqualified to audit. RILY is continuing to use Marcum as the 2024 auditor. |
| 18) Marc Cohodes (AlderLaneEggs) | "Now that the $RILY dividend is going away, this omission is serious stuff" | FALSE The dividend did not go away. It was reduced from $1.00/share to $0.50/share, to allow them to opportunistically allocate capital. 23Q4 and 24Q1 |
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2024.05.21 18:27 kadenjahusk Need advice: How to improve my DMing and a request for suggestions
I have a long-standing TTRPG group and we've been on a bit of a break from our Cyberpunk Red game after a big climactic session. Now, we have been discussing getting back into the swing of things and I'm starting to rev my Cyberpunk GMing back up, starting with a small time-skip and calling it a "season 2" with a chance for players to switch out characters if they want.
I've spoken to the players and I had a couple things I want to improve about my GMing and how I run the system to provide an even better and more cyberpunk-y experience. I had a few things I wanted to do/improve and I was curious if there are any good suggestions out there. Note: This is a virtual campaign that we play through Foundry.
The topics I could use some help with are as follows:
Better bookkeeping strats and tools. I have struggled particularly with tracking time/days. What sort of tools have you employed to make calendar and time tracking easier? General bookkeeping advice is also helpful!
Making the economy of scarcity fun. This campaign has been my first time running Cyberpunk Red and one thing that I failed to understand until a good bit into the game was the limit on being able to find items above 100eb easily. My group doesn't have a fixer so my biggest challenge has been how to make finding things in this economy fun and interesting without it just being a drag through procedure for the purpose of maintaining the setting. I'll take any and all suggestions in this.
Good quick-reference sheets or digital GM screens. The core book's layout is a mess, making rules reference a literal nightmare, even with a digital PDF and word searches. I have a good cheat sheet for combat but I was wondering if anyone could point me to similar sheets for things like how the economy works, key info regarding the city zones, things that can affect skill checks, etc.
Any general tips or tricks. I'm interested in challenges and solutions you all have encountered in your own games!
and here are a couple hangups that are more specific to my campaign:
Better ways to engage a Nomad. I want to better engage our nomad in a very city-centric game. Specifically, the player expressed interest in more vehicle-related encounters. Up to this point, outside of one highway chase the nomad's vehicles have mainly been used to ferry the group around. I'm not looking necessarily for big setpieces. Even smaller, more common ways to make having the vehicle be engaging would probably go a long way here. Also, what are some interesting ways I can try and integrate the nomad's family into the game that's more than just "where the vehicles come from"? I have a few named NPCs but outside of a few small conversations there hasn't been much and it's only been with the Nomad player.
Sniper rifle encounters that aren't just for snipers. One player (also the nomad) has a sniper rifle as a main weapon but there haven't been situations where it's been utilized. How could one go about designing situations where a sniper is useful, but the other players also get some engagement?
Any and all advice or suggestions are appreciated!
submitted by kadenjahusk to cyberpunkred [link] [comments]
I've spoken to the players and I had a couple things I want to improve about my GMing and how I run the system to provide an even better and more cyberpunk-y experience. I had a few things I wanted to do/improve and I was curious if there are any good suggestions out there. Note: This is a virtual campaign that we play through Foundry.
The topics I could use some help with are as follows:
Better bookkeeping strats and tools. I have struggled particularly with tracking time/days. What sort of tools have you employed to make calendar and time tracking easier? General bookkeeping advice is also helpful!
Making the economy of scarcity fun. This campaign has been my first time running Cyberpunk Red and one thing that I failed to understand until a good bit into the game was the limit on being able to find items above 100eb easily. My group doesn't have a fixer so my biggest challenge has been how to make finding things in this economy fun and interesting without it just being a drag through procedure for the purpose of maintaining the setting. I'll take any and all suggestions in this.
Good quick-reference sheets or digital GM screens. The core book's layout is a mess, making rules reference a literal nightmare, even with a digital PDF and word searches. I have a good cheat sheet for combat but I was wondering if anyone could point me to similar sheets for things like how the economy works, key info regarding the city zones, things that can affect skill checks, etc.
Any general tips or tricks. I'm interested in challenges and solutions you all have encountered in your own games!
and here are a couple hangups that are more specific to my campaign:
Better ways to engage a Nomad. I want to better engage our nomad in a very city-centric game. Specifically, the player expressed interest in more vehicle-related encounters. Up to this point, outside of one highway chase the nomad's vehicles have mainly been used to ferry the group around. I'm not looking necessarily for big setpieces. Even smaller, more common ways to make having the vehicle be engaging would probably go a long way here. Also, what are some interesting ways I can try and integrate the nomad's family into the game that's more than just "where the vehicles come from"? I have a few named NPCs but outside of a few small conversations there hasn't been much and it's only been with the Nomad player.
Sniper rifle encounters that aren't just for snipers. One player (also the nomad) has a sniper rifle as a main weapon but there haven't been situations where it's been utilized. How could one go about designing situations where a sniper is useful, but the other players also get some engagement?
Any and all advice or suggestions are appreciated!
2024.05.21 18:25 julyyx Bad paralegal experience - what to do
Hello everyone, my husband (us citizen) and I filed in September 2023 through an immigration paralegal a family member recommended - she seemed professional and answered all our questions and said the process wouldnt take more than a few months (we barely knew anything about AOS at that point) since then communication with her has been quite bad, when we ask her questions (via text) her answers are very short and never include any explaination. We had a RFE for i-864 in October and she took over a month to get back to us and ask for the needed documents, the RFE response was received days before the deadline.
When we provided our bonafide evidence for the I-130, all we provided/ our paralegal asked for was several pictures (trips together, with family, etc) ONE bank statement after we JUST created the joint bank account, some passport stamps from us both showing we travelled to visit each other, and the mariage certificate. I now know this isnt very much at all, so we reached out to our paralegal checking if we can upload more "unsolicited evidence" that we have collected since then. Again, she just told us to "not do anything" (no explaination why) and then asked my husband if we keep checking the USCIS website (meaning our online account/ case status) which yes we are, about every week or so. She then told us not to do this since "most of her clients who keep checking are getting interviewed" I was shocked when I read this, no way this is real right?
I have a feeling our paralegal knows we will be invited for an interview because we have so little evidence and doesnt want us to do anything about it because it means she gets paid more. I dont know what to do, I havent even received my EAD yet which we filed for concurrently..
submitted by julyyx to USCIS [link] [comments]
When we provided our bonafide evidence for the I-130, all we provided/ our paralegal asked for was several pictures (trips together, with family, etc) ONE bank statement after we JUST created the joint bank account, some passport stamps from us both showing we travelled to visit each other, and the mariage certificate. I now know this isnt very much at all, so we reached out to our paralegal checking if we can upload more "unsolicited evidence" that we have collected since then. Again, she just told us to "not do anything" (no explaination why) and then asked my husband if we keep checking the USCIS website (meaning our online account/ case status) which yes we are, about every week or so. She then told us not to do this since "most of her clients who keep checking are getting interviewed" I was shocked when I read this, no way this is real right?
I have a feeling our paralegal knows we will be invited for an interview because we have so little evidence and doesnt want us to do anything about it because it means she gets paid more. I dont know what to do, I havent even received my EAD yet which we filed for concurrently..
2024.05.21 18:23 BleepBlimpBop $RILY: Long List of Short Seller Claims --- DEBUNKED
Ever-shifting Short Seller Claims
The short sellers attacking RILY in 2023-2024 have been relentless, with an ever-shifting list of wild accusations.It's sickening to watch them compile a never-ending list of baseless wild theories and claims to support their short positions, which are demonstrably false. But as each is proved false, they pivot to new claims, and/or change the goalposts.
The sheer volume of shifting claims makes it hard to track how despotic they are with their "platform," and how many falsehoods they've spun. Even for someone who watched it in real-time, for almost a year
Compiled & Debunked
Sunlight kills vampires. To that end, I've compiled a list of (i) claimants (ii) claims (iii) reality (iv) definitive source proving reality.Why Did They Target RILY?
One of the most vocal short sellers, Nate Koppikar (who also introduced Marc Cohodes to the "opportunity") has a fund Orso Partners. Based on their SEC registration document, this is their investment thesis:"The Account’s investment objectives are to achieve capital appreciation primarily by identifying and selling short marketable equity securities of underfollowed and complex companies with misleading or corrective disclosures through a research-intensive process. The Account employs a short-biased investment strategy with an emphasis on primarily small to mid-cap companies that are underfollowed and complex (i.e., companies with market capitalizations of less than $5 billion which the market does not yet have a wellformed bull and/or bear perspective)."
RILY fits their description. The icing on the cake was the relatively large market cap, and the relatively small float. Given extremely high insider ownership (32.9% of shares per the proxy), and limitations on when and how insiders can trade, the "free float" of the stock (i.e., the shares that regularly trade) is very small for the size of the company. Moreover, the setup would only get better - given insiders have consistently used their free cash to buy additional shares hand-over-fist (further reducing the float).
That meant, with relatively small amounts of capital, the short sellers could shove around the stock price. That ability to move price opens another profit avenue - taking large derivative positions (buying puts, and selling calls), and shoving the price (or allowing it to drift up) to profit all along the way. It looked so good, the stock has been the highest-shorted on the US indices for several months. Even after the release of the 10-K, shares remain "hard to borrow" with elevated borrow fees.
Debunked Claims
The claims made by vocal short sellers could fill a book. Most were outrageous and fanciful when they were proposed. Virtually all have objectively debunked. This isn't a comprehensive list, as their claims are too numerous and varied. But it paints an illuminating picture.With a track record this poor, one would expect the short sellers to exit - rather than continuing to spin new narratives. Perhaps the continued attacks are their exit strategy to avoid bankruptcy... Well, #Bullish.
With the highest short interest of all US stocks (albeit likely decreased from the highs of ~76% of the float), I think this is more than ripe for a return to fair value - or well above, if a short squeeze occurs.
Note that the list below deliberately excludes three types of posts/claims from the short sellers:
A) Juvenile personal attacks and attempts to character assassinate and dox a long list of people (RILY CEO, RILY new hires, RILY clients, Marcum the auditor, Marcum's lead audit professional, any firm or individual publicly posting a bull thesis on RILY, etc.).
B) Those that make no objective claims, but simply exist as a product of malicious degeneracy (like pictures of roasted pigs in ovens labeled Bryant Riley the CEO, photoshopped pictures of the CEO in prison chains next to convicted felons, video of an obese woman barely able to walk being gored by a bull labeled Mrs. Riley the CEO's wife, etc.).
C) Those that are impossible for short sellers to know, and impossible to objectively verify (e.g., Marc Cohodes claiming a single RILY trader front runs the CEOs personal short trades in front of clients taking following the firm's bullish advice on those stocks, to guarantee profits).
| Claimant | Claim | Reality |
|---|---|---|
| 1) Wolfpack | Wolfpack “RILY will record investment losses of up to ~$700 million in 2023” FALSE 10-K | FALSE |
| 2) Wolfpack | “new loan to CORZQ will work out just as badly as the last and end in default (again) before June 2023” | FALSE Repaid in full, early, on 1/6/2024. |
| 3) Wolfpack | “The coupon rate on RILY’s seven issues of baby bonds ranges from 5% to 6.75%, which we believe to be far too low to compensate investors for the existential risk that accompanies these securities.” | FALSE Full redemption of May 2024 came early. Far more than sufficient cash to cover debt payments. |
| 4) Wolfpack | “According to our analysis, 4 of RILY’s largest 7 corporate borrowers with outstanding loan balances of $295.3 million are at a high risk of default, or in the case of CORZQ, is already in default.” | FALSE a. Core Scientific Inc. repaid early and in full ($111MM of the “risk”) b. Exela Technologies repaid term loan in full ($55.8MM of the “risk”) c. Arena Group Holdings debt retired in full ($99MM of the “risk”). Publicly disclosed in the most recent 10-K for each company (search for "Riley" in the filing) |
| 5) Wolfpack | “RILY’s NAV is Far Below the $1.1 Billion Minimum NAV Requirement That Is Required for the Nomura Credit Agreement Putting RILY at Risk of Collapse in 2023” | FALSE RILY is in full compliance with the Nomura credit agreement. Moreover, reflecting the strength of the relationship, Nomura even granted a no-fee extension when the 10-K filing was delayed. Also see 10-K for current status. |
| 6) Wolfpack | “Over $200 Million of the Goodwill and Intangible Assets on RILY’s Balance Sheet is Attributable to its Telecom Rollup, which is Centered on Dial-up and DSL Internet:” - criticizing them as dying businesses with no value | FALSE Segment is extremely valuable. From just 2020 to 2023, the communications segment has returned over $212.2MM in adjusted EBITDA. |
| 7) Nate Koppikar (TheFriendlyBear) + Bill Abbate Jr. (JrAbbate), Various | RILY committed fraud with loans and closing the FRG acquisition. "The fact $RILY closed the FRG deal while hiding the Kahn loan - an all PIK defaulted loan backed by $FRG shares - is a Hall of Fame worthy act of fraud. I thought after Enron/Sarbox we couldn't have something like this happen in US markets." | FALSE A law firm led an internal investigation, and an independent external investigation both found “The review confirmed what the Company previously disclosed: that the Company and its executives, including Bryant Riley, had no involvement with, or knowledge of, any of the alleged misconduct concerning Prophecy.” “The results of the independent investigation confirmed that the Company and its executives had no involvement with, or knowledge of, any of the alleged misconduct concerning Mr. Kahn or any of his affiliates. This independent investigation was conducted subsequent to the Company's February 22, 2024 disclosure of the internal review performed with the assistance of Sullivan & Cromwell LLP as outside counsel.” Also see 10-K |
| 8) Marc Cohodes (AlderlaneEggs), ParrotCapital, Bill Abbate Jr. (JrAbbate), Various | The 10-K will never be filed. They can't produce audited financials. | FALSE Audited 10-K was filed. Delay was due to Audit committee fulfilling its responsibilities and proactively conducting investigations (internal and external). |
| 9) Marc Cohodes (AlderLaneEggs) + Nate Koppikar (TheFriendlyBear) + Bill Abbate Jr. (JrAbbate) + ParrotCapital | Sullivan and Cromwell knew about Massive Fraud, and did a "sham investigation" | FALSE Sullivan and Cromwell is one of the most respected law firms, in the US and worldwide. "Sullivan & Cromwell continues to lead all law firm advisers in announced and completed global deals in 2023, according to Bloomberg and LSEG. The Firm advised on global announced deals totaling more than $345 billion, representing a 12.1 percent market share, per Bloomberg, and on completed global deals totaling more than $431 billion, representing a 16.9 percent market share, per LSEG." They're not compromising themselves for a relatively small client. |
| 10) Marc Cohodes (AlderLaneEggs), Nate Koppikar (TheFriendlyBear), Bill Abbate Jr. (JrAbbate), Parrot Capital | Marcum is enabling Massive Fraud | FALSE Marcum is a respected audit firm, and 13th largest by revenue. "Marcum LLP advanced into the Top 15 in the 2023 Vault Accounting list of top-ranked accounting firms. Marcum climbed six levels to the No. 13 ranking overall and earned a ranking of 14 in prestige. The Firm also won Top 20 rankings across all Practice Area, Quality of Life, and Diversity categories, including several new classifications added this year." |
| 11) Marc Cohodes (AlderLaneEggs) | Nomura is enabling Massive Fraud | FALSE Nomura is a global financial services company, and the oldest brokerage firm in Japan. They operate in a highly regulated industry. They're not putting themselves on the line for a relatively small client. |
| 12) Parrot Capital | "The list of $RILY enablers is massive: Marcum LLP, Sullivan and Cromwell, Seeking Alpha, Holbrook Holdings, $AX Axos Bank, Many, many more." | FALSE There's no global conspiracy whereby these companies - all respected law firms, auditors, banks, and media outlets - are collectively colluding to enable RILY to commit fraud. Requires only two brain cells and one functioning synapse to know there's no grand collusion cabal between these disparate companies. |
| 13) Marc Cohodes (AlderLaneEggs), Jonathan Weil at WSJ | Franchise Group shares used to secure Kahn loan: "It is unclear whether Kahn pledged the same shares twice—to both Prophecy and B. Riley." | FALSE As stated by the company, Simple UCC search disproves this. UCC # 202302295747 |
| 14) Marc Cohodes (AlderLaneEggs) | “Bryant Riley is on the Road, telling people the ‘audit partner at Marcum left’ and that ‘I have made mistakes’ “ | FALSE Marcum audit partner was working on the audit the whole time; the original audit partner had hit the 5yr SEC rule, so he was never working on this year’s audit. |
| 15) Marc Cohodes (AlderLaneEggs) | "So it turns out James La Rocca was Fired by MarcumLLP If nothing was wrong with prior $RILY Audits, why is he gone? This will be great in discovery of what exactly went on. | FALSE Marcum audit partner was working on the audit the whole time; the original audit partner had hit the 5yr SEC rule, so he was never working on this year’s audit. |
| 16) Koppikar (TheFriendlyBear) | “So Bryant Riley did disseminate MNPI back in March” in response to Cohodes claim that he told people the Marcum partner left | FALSE Cohodes claimed Bryant Riley was telling people the Marcum auditor left. Koppikar called that disseminating MNPI. Cohodes statement was false (and thus Koppikar's derivate claim is also false). A different auditor worked on RILY, as Marcum follows the SEC rules; the lead auditor can only serve the client for 5 consecutive years. As such, Koppikar’s derivative claim of disseminating MNPI is false. |
| 17) Koppikar (TheFriendlyBear) | “He appears to still not be familiar with the voting interest model of consolidation… why is a life science and tech partner signing an extremely complex investment company / broker dealer audit ???” i.e., auditor is unqualified | FALSE The auditor is fully qualified. Marcum is a highly respected auditor; they don't hire unqualified people, or assign them to clients they're unqualified to audit. RILY is continuing to use Marcum as the 2024 auditor. |
| 18) Marc Cohodes (AlderLaneEggs) | "Now that the $RILY dividend is going away, this omission is serious stuff" | FALSE The dividend did not go away. It was reduced from $1.00/share to $0.50/share, to allow them to opportunistically allocate capital. 23Q4 and 24Q1 |
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2024.05.21 18:17 in2thegr00ve When to tell my supervisor?
I have an interview coming up for a federal job. I am already employed by this agency in a neighboring office. After the interview, if I move forward, when will my current supervisor be contacted? I feel like I should tell them I’m interviewing but don’t want things to be awkward if I don’t get the job. But I know how rude and disrespectful it will seem to them if they don’t hear it from me that I’m applying elsewhere.
It’s hard to know for sure since the offices are so close and everyone knows each other. Any thoughts?
submitted by in2thegr00ve to usajobs [link] [comments]
It’s hard to know for sure since the offices are so close and everyone knows each other. Any thoughts?
2024.05.21 18:09 MWBartko Considerations on Sexual Immorality, Gender Identity, and my friends Non-Denominational Church.
A good friend of mine from a fairly conservative evangelical background is considering becoming a pastor at his non-denominational church. As part of the evaluation process, they asked him to write a paper on these topics that he is not an expert on.
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
submitted by MWBartko to Bible [link] [comments]
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
2024.05.21 18:07 MWBartko Considerations on Sexual Immorality, Gender Identity, and my friends Non-Denominational Church.
A good friend of mine from a fairly conservative evangelical background is considering becoming a pastor at his non-denominational church. As part of the evaluation process, they asked him to write a paper on these topics that he is not an expert on.
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
submitted by MWBartko to trueprolife [link] [comments]
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
2024.05.21 18:06 MWBartko Considerations on Sexual Immorality, Gender Identity, and my friends Non-Denominational Church.
A good friend of mine from a fairly conservative evangelical background is considering becoming a pastor at his non-denominational church. As part of the evaluation process, they asked him to write a paper on these topics that he is not an expert on.
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
submitted by MWBartko to Protestant [link] [comments]
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
2024.05.21 18:05 irish_meatball19 I don't want to hear anyone complaining about people "not wanting to work" ever again.
I need to rant/vent, apologies for subjecting any readers to it.
I'm a data analyst with 6+ years experience. Have a background in data science and have worked in several different companies over the last few years via mostly remote contract work. The most recent job was an 18 month contract with a giant tech company everyone has heard of, so I'm thinking it will be a steady paycheck and I'll have plenty of time to prepare for the next bout of job hunting and having this company on my resume will make things easier.
Turns out they terminated my contract more than 5 months early (I live in an at-will state, my contract was written in a way where there is no recourse for me) because upper management decided they wanted to outsource the work to an offshore company rather than pay contractors. They also gave me about a week's notice that this was happening. No such thing as loyalty, I get that but it sucks.
The real problem is that I have been looking for work now for almost 3 months, and haven't had a single interview. I've never seen the job market this slow since I entered this career. Direct applications to companies get crickets, and recruiters are so poorly organized or unresponsive I'm starting to worry about entrusting my information to these people. One recruiter tells me after scheduling an interview the client realized they posted the wrong type of job (after approving the job description). Another says the company was worried about the short tenures I've had with companies, when I have clearly listed that it was contract work. Another says I've been shortlisted for interviews, then radio silence for the last 3 weeks. Another tells me the company declined me because I didn't have experience in two required software packages, even though those are clearly listed on my resume. It's maddening.
I like what I do, and am motivated to work. I have certainly sent out more than 100 applications at this point, maybe closer to 200. I'm reaching out to friends, family, past coworkers, everyone I can think of to find leads on jobs or how I can improve my chances. I'm working 2 side gigs to make ends meet, and I'm lucky to have my wife supporting us with her income, but we all know that single income households don't exist anymore and the constant scramble with no progress is wearing on my mental state.
All this and I still hear people making statements about lazy people relying on unemployment and benefits so good they don't want to go back to work. That jobs are open because people don't want them. How can people seriously think that, when the process of even finding employment is so grueling at this point? If I hear one more person saying this nonsense, I feel like it's going to take everything in my power to not punch them.
submitted by irish_meatball19 to antiwork [link] [comments]
I'm a data analyst with 6+ years experience. Have a background in data science and have worked in several different companies over the last few years via mostly remote contract work. The most recent job was an 18 month contract with a giant tech company everyone has heard of, so I'm thinking it will be a steady paycheck and I'll have plenty of time to prepare for the next bout of job hunting and having this company on my resume will make things easier.
Turns out they terminated my contract more than 5 months early (I live in an at-will state, my contract was written in a way where there is no recourse for me) because upper management decided they wanted to outsource the work to an offshore company rather than pay contractors. They also gave me about a week's notice that this was happening. No such thing as loyalty, I get that but it sucks.
The real problem is that I have been looking for work now for almost 3 months, and haven't had a single interview. I've never seen the job market this slow since I entered this career. Direct applications to companies get crickets, and recruiters are so poorly organized or unresponsive I'm starting to worry about entrusting my information to these people. One recruiter tells me after scheduling an interview the client realized they posted the wrong type of job (after approving the job description). Another says the company was worried about the short tenures I've had with companies, when I have clearly listed that it was contract work. Another says I've been shortlisted for interviews, then radio silence for the last 3 weeks. Another tells me the company declined me because I didn't have experience in two required software packages, even though those are clearly listed on my resume. It's maddening.
I like what I do, and am motivated to work. I have certainly sent out more than 100 applications at this point, maybe closer to 200. I'm reaching out to friends, family, past coworkers, everyone I can think of to find leads on jobs or how I can improve my chances. I'm working 2 side gigs to make ends meet, and I'm lucky to have my wife supporting us with her income, but we all know that single income households don't exist anymore and the constant scramble with no progress is wearing on my mental state.
All this and I still hear people making statements about lazy people relying on unemployment and benefits so good they don't want to go back to work. That jobs are open because people don't want them. How can people seriously think that, when the process of even finding employment is so grueling at this point? If I hear one more person saying this nonsense, I feel like it's going to take everything in my power to not punch them.
2024.05.21 18:04 MWBartko Considerations on Sexual Immorality, Gender Identity, and my friends Non-Denominational Church.
A good friend of mine from a fairly conservative evangelical background is considering becoming a pastor at his non-denominational church. As part of the evaluation process, they asked him to write a paper on these topics that he is not an expert on.
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
submitted by MWBartko to Christianity [link] [comments]
He asked for my opinion and I offered to share it online to solicit constructive criticism, notes of encouragement, and or reading recommendations on these topics.
I believe his goal is to be faithful to the scriptures, loving to those outside the church, and challenging to those inside the church, as most of us could do better.
What he wrote is in the quotation marks below.
“1: Scope of the Issue
Sexual immorality has become a besetting and ubiquitous issue in our culture and in our churches. While many aspects of it are not novel or unique to this time and have clear scriptural input, there are others that bring challenges to our church for which we don’t have obvious precedent. The main point of these comments is to try and answer three questions with some degree of specificity: (1) how do we make ourselves a place where people who do not know Christ will feel welcome to come and learn of Him regardless of where they come from, (2) how do we pastorally care for people who have come in to the church with pre-existing circumstances related to sexual immorality, and (3) how do we equip our members to represent Christ to those in their lives that are dealing with these issues. We want to do this in a way that does not “walk a tight rope” or compromise to appease, but honors Scripture in its commands to both show compassion and exhort and correct. We must recognize that every individual circumstance is unique, and many will require careful and prayerful consideration, but this is meant to give a framework for that consideration.
2: Scriptural Basis for Corporate Response
There are many references we can point to that discuss and define sexual immorality throughout Scripture and many of these will be used below as we consider specific examples and situations. Let us start, however, by looking at passages that deal with corporate response rather than individual sin. It is clear that the Corinthian church had significant issues in this area, and much of Paul’s first letter was devoted to it. In chapter 5, Paul states that when sexual immorality is discovered in the church we should “mourn” over it and “not to associate with immoral people.” Importantly, he also makes clear in vv. 9-13 that these comments only apply to those “who bears the name of brother.” He explicitly writes, “not at all meaning the sexually immoral of this world…for what have I to do with judging outsiders?” This is key in informing our response to those who are not members of the church. If it is our desire to see sinners come through our doors and come to know our Savior through our ministry, then we must be welcoming, accepting them where they are. This is not to say we hide or compromise the biblical position, but it is not an issue on which we want to filter people at the door. There are three categories of people in sexual sin that we need to form a response for. First, those just coming to the church who have not committed to it – these should be treated the same as any we are reaching out to with Christ’s love. They need Jesus, not behavioral change. Next, those who have recently joined the church but have pre-existing sexual sin patterns. This can and should be addressed with patience, dignity, and love. There are often many sin areas in the life of a new believer, and it is prudent to discern how and when to address each of them. Lastly, those who have been members in the church for some amount of time and fall into sexual sin. This is the group that Paul is primarily addressing in 1 Corinthians. While sex within marriage is a private issue, sexual sin cannot be a taboo topic. It needs to be addressed regularly and clearly. We need close enough relationships within the church that such problems do not fester in the dark. We must avoid the typical church pattern to vilify the first group, never see the second group, and pretend the third group doesn’t exist until it all blows up in scandal. May it never be.
3: Consistency Issue
There is a tendency in our Christian culture to treat some sexual sins as worse than others. Like the Corinthians, some things we seem to have accepted as just ubiquitous parts of our culture. Knowing the prevalence of promiscuity and fornication among teens and single adults and usage of pornography even within the church, we tend to address these as issues of indwelling sin, similar to anger or fear of man, with offers of accountability and understanding when someone falls. By contrast, when it comes to homosexuality or adultery, it is often a church discipline issue. We view homosexual marriage as a major problem, but remarriage after a non-biblical divorce is rarely addressed. These inconsistencies lead to stigmatization and polarization and should have no place in the church. The criterion for escalation should be unrepentance, not the nature of the sexual sin. It is clear from 1 Corinthians that all should be taken seriously, but none should be vilified above others.
4: Culture and Identity
The major underlying problem with many of the sexual sin and gender issues is that they have come to be culturally bound up with people’s identities. This is not a new phenomenon and is not unique to this issue. As far back as Acts 19, you see people becoming “enraged” because Paul had threatened the Ephesians’ cultural identity as worshipers of Artemis. People continue to find their primary identities in their employment, hobbies, sports teams, or families rather than Christ. None of these should be accepted, but none should be reviled either. If a person does not know Jesus, they are dead. How they identify themselves is of no concern. Once they have been made alive, they can be taught that “whose” they are is more important than “who” they are. All identity outside of Christ is not sinful, but if it takes paramount importance, it may become so. A person who recognizes a tendency toward same sex attraction may label themselves as gay or lesbian. This should not be considered a sin issue unless it becomes, for them, their defining characteristic or leads to sinful actions. We should recognize the difficulty of this struggle and support such a person rather than get hung up on labels. There must be clear distinction between identifying same sex attraction and engaging in homosexual behavior. These should be the guiding principles underlying everything that follows are regards individual cases.
5: Public Facing Information, Guests, and New Attendees
Considering what we have discussed, and Paul’s assertion in 1 Corinthians 5 that we ought to reserve judgment on sexual immorality to those we call brother, I would submit that public facing information regarding the church (i.e. website, app, etc) should not publish a position on sexual immorality, marriage, and gender identity. Doing so effectively places the filter at the door so that people who do not know Christ may be turned away from it. This is not tantamount to tacit approval. In appropriate contexts within the church, these topics should still be discussed and addressed, but I do not believe it is consistent with a biblical treatment of unbelievers to place it in a public facing forum. If we have guests or new regular attendees who appear to be engaged in a cohabitating or fornicating relationship, a homosexual relationship, or other sexual sin, this should not be a priority to address unless we have discerned that they are believers and join the church. Even then, it is important to draw a distinction between someone who deals with same-sex attraction and someone who engages in homosexual behavior. The next seven points are meant to discuss, in broad terms, how we should address those who join the church with pre-existing relationships or identity issues:
6: Promiscuity, Cohabitation – Hebrews 13:4, 1 Cor 7:1-2, Ex 22:16
Much of the biblical discussion on promiscuity is by inference. Clearly, sex was meant to be inseparably linked to marriage and outside of that context should be considered immoral. For those who join the church already in a sexual relationship who are unmarried we should apply Exodus 22:16 and encourage them to marry as soon as possible. If they do not wish to marry, they should be encouraged to separate. Paul acknowledges in 1 Cor 7:2 that marriage is the best remedy for “temptation to sexual immorality.”
7: Adultery, Divorce and Remarriage – Matt 5:32, Matt 19:9, 1 Cor 7:10-11
This issue is given much more explicit biblical instruction but is often glossed over in our Christian culture due to the messy landscape of divorces and remarriages. In cases where non-biblical divorce has occurred, if reconciliation is possible, this should be pursued. If reconciliation is impossible because one or more parties have remarried, it would not be sensible to divorce again in order to achieve reconciliation. The principle to apply here, I believe, is from 1 Cor 7:17-24 summarized in verse 20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” This is not an ideal circumstance, but it is the best way forward in an imperfect world. Of note, polygamy was common in the culture of the early church, and while not ideal, was accepted by the church, as evidenced by the qualifications for elder to be “a husband of but one wife.” We have polygamous cultures even within our local community and if they came to Christ, we should not counsel them to divorce all but one wife and thus disrupt their social structure. It is not ideal and would disqualify them from eldership, but they should remain as they are. Whether marriage after unbiblical divorce in the past disqualifies a man from eldership is a case-by case question for the eldership.
8: Pornography, Sensuality, and Lust – Lev 18:6-18, Matt 5:28
As mentioned above, use of pornography has reached a high saturation point within our culture and within our church. While once thought of as simply a male issue, there is a growing trend toward gender parity in pornography usage. It is an issue that should be discussed with some frequency within our church. For those that join the church and view pornography regularly, it needs to be made clear that while the world has largely destigmatized it, it is still sexual immorality. Furthermore, this isn’t just limited to nudity and pornography, but any sensuality that leads to looking at someone “with lustful intent” is the heart equivalent of adultery according to Matt 5:28. In our culture, it is not possible to avoid such things by just turning away. We need to address the heart issues of idolatry, selfishness, and satisfaction in Christ. Practically, how should we deal with those who have on-going struggles with pornography, sensuality and lust? Should this preclude them from eldership? From deaconship? Taken strictly, this would preclude nearly all men from eldership. These require individual evaluation from the elders, but a guiding principle should be, if the person is repentant and there is evidence of growth in their life, we should consider more responsibility and continued discipleship.
9: Homosexuality – Lev 18:22, Lev 20:13, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:8-11
From the above references and others, it is evident that homosexual behavior is sexual sin. We cannot equivocate on that point. As we have discussed above, if a person who is already a believer and in the church and struggles with same sex attraction, we should approach them as we would handle anyone who is sexually attracted to someone to whom they are not married. If such a person decides that homosexuality is not sinful and begins sexually immoral activity, we should deal with them in the same way as any member who falls into unrepentant sin and go through the processes of correction and, if necessary, of church discipline. It is important that we draw a distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual behavior. We can do tremendous harm by demonizing same sex attraction and creating a taboo around it. A person who is struggling to abstain from homosexual behavior should be supported and encouraged. I believe Paul’s strong statements about not associating with sexually immoral people applies to those who remain unrepentant. Much more nuanced is the issue of how we address those that join the church already in a homosexual relationship. What about the married homosexual couple who join the church with their adopted child? Should we break up their family? I believe, in this case, the same principle should apply as to those who have gone through an unbiblical divorce in the past. We should apply 1 Cor 7:20: “Each one should remain in the condition in which he was called.” We can recognize that this is not ideal, but it is the best we can do in a fallen world just as we do with someone who is married after unbiblical divorce. Whether should apply to a homosexual couple in a long term committed relationship who are not legally married would be an individual discussion with the elders. Again, these are nuanced cases that will need individual prayer, discussion, and discernment. I believe a great deal more patience is called for when a new believer joins the church that has a history or present reality of homosexuality, even if they are unrepentant at first, believing that homosexuality is not sinful, than we would demonstrate to a person who has been in the church for a period of time and then decides to pursue a homosexual relationship.
10: Bisexuality – Heb 13:4
Bisexual attraction is no more or less of an issue than anyone who finds that they are sexually attracted to someone other than their spouse. This is not a rare or unique circumstance, even within the church. Someone who is practicing bisexuality is, by definition, not confining sex to the marriage bed, and this, therefore, qualifies as sexual immorality. The issue, here again, is one of identity and cultural acceptance. If a person “identifies as bisexual,” the real issue is not the bisexuality, but the fact that they identify themselves primarily by their sexual desires, and not by Christ. It would be equally a problem if they “identified as heterosexual” and that was seen as their defining characteristic. If such a person were to join the church, our priority should be in helping them see their identity in Christ rather than focusing on renouncing their sexual preference.
11: Transgenderism/Non-binarism – Psalm 139: 13-15
It should be noted that the next two points should not be considered in the category of sexual immorality, but as they are connected to the same cultural moment will be discussed here. It should further be remarked that transgenderism is a modern issue with no direct reference in Scripture. It is a challenging issue that often falls prey to oversimplification and scapegoating. It is not sufficient to simply state that a person should identify with their born gender. There are those born with ambiguous genitalia and those born with sex chromosome abnormalities such that “born gender” is not necessarily accurate. These occur with a frequency of 1 in 448 births on average which is not particularly rare. The majority of people who consider themselves to be transgender do not fall into these categories, but the fact remains that these categories exist. Unless we plan to embark on genetic testing, we must be careful how we assert someone’s gender assignment. Furthermore, we must acknowledge that much of the gender confusion in our culture is due to a distortion of biblically accurate masculinity and femininity in our culture of which the church has been widely supportive for generations. Many transgender and non-binary individuals consider themselves so because they do not fit into the traditional boxes our culture has created for the genders. The church can start by recognizing that these boxes are incorrect. We can also acknowledge that gender differences and roles are far less important than most human cultures perceive. Christ himself challenged many gender norms in his ministry and Paul maintains “…there is no male or female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Gal 3:28b) It is much more difficult to recognize this issue as a sin issue than many of the above concerns. If someone wishes to be addressed by different pronouns than they once did or dress differently than they once did, this does not amount to immorality. Once again, this can be an idolatrous identity issue if the person sees it as the central characteristic of their lives. There is often an inherent pride in asserting that such a person does not feel they fit in the body created for them, but if they come to love Jesus and understand and believe that they are “fearfully and wonderfully made” then this issue may become moot. Whether or not they revert to dressing differently or using pronouns they did when they were younger is largely immaterial. This also addresses the issue of people who may have undergone permanent physical changes. While we should not endorse such modification if it is being considered, there is no reason to reverse such a thing in order to return to a base state. We must recognize that this is a group that has a high propensity toward mental health concerns, instability, and suicidality. They need love, support and prayer, not scapegoating and extra-biblical expectations of conforming to a cultural norm. We must further note that this group as well as the homosexual group have often experienced psychological and even physical harm from others in our culture, sometimes in the name of Christ. We must foster an environment of champions physical and psychological safety for these people.
12: Asexuality – 1 Cor 7:25-38
Asexuality also should not be considered sexual immorality. There is, in fact, wide support in Paul’s letters such as in 1 Cor 7 for people, if they are able, to remain unmarried and be “anxious about the things of the Lord, how to please the Lord.” We tend to champion the model of the nuclear family in our Christian culture, but Paul sees chaste singleness as a better way. There should be no pressure from the church to make sure that single people pair off and get married because it is expected of them. As this state has been culturally identified with the LGBTQIA movement, it is seen on the same spectrum as the sexual immorality and gender issues discussed above, but it is not. It can still fall prey to the same issue of an idolatrous identity as some of the above issues, but it need not be so.
13: Glass Ceiling
In the event that God sees fit to bring people from these subgroups into our church, there would inevitably be a glass ceiling. The question is at what point. The four logical points are: regular attender, member, deacon, and elder. Regardless of their background or position, all should be welcome to be a regular attender. It is also clear, from the biblical requirements for eldership, that on-going problems or engagement in any of the sexual sins would disqualify them from that post. The middle two are less clear. I would submit that the bar for membership should be very low. This step, in my opinion, is when they would “bear the name of brother” and not before. Even if they disagree about the sinful nature of homosexuality, this should not disallow them from becoming members as long as they agree to submit to the churches position and not cause division. Allowing them to become members gives us the pastoral authority to speak into their lives, and we would hope that over time the Spirit would work in their hearts to convince them of the truth. Putting such a person in a deacon role would probably not be wise but would need to be evaluated prayerfully on a case-by-case basis. The difficulty here is that, while a position on homosexuality is not a salvific issue and should not be considered a core doctrine in the same way as the deity of Christ, for example, it is a sin issue. There is a limit to how far we can “agree to disagree” and still uphold our duty to root out sin in our midst. Once again, we should also distinguish between a struggle with same sex attraction and engagement in homosexual behavior when we consider our response. There is also a glass ceiling when it comes to marriage. While I believe we should not break up existing homosexual marriages, we should not participate in creating them. The marriage covenant between a man and woman was created, in part, to reflect the relationship between Christ and the church (Eph 5). This should not be co-opted to excuse or normalize immorality.
14: Nuance and Edge Cases
The above outline is by no means meant to be exhaustive or definitive. It is meant to provide a lens, supported by scripture, through which we can view these issues and consider corporate and pastoral responses. It should inform how we view the people that walk through the door from a wide range of backgrounds and how we equip those in our church to be Christ’s ambassadors to those in our community. Every person and circumstance, history and baggage will be different, and any non-nuanced position would be inherently evil. I pray we have many opportunities to talk, think and pray through specific situations that God would bless us with the chance to be a part of. What an honor it would be to be used to reach into broken lives like these with the Gospel of Grace.
15: Action Steps
As we consider practical and philosophical ways of responding to the above, I believe we should start from a position of corporate repentance. If we wish to truly reach out and touch the lives of broken people in need of a Savior who live a life of same sex attraction or gender dysphoria, we need to begin by recognizing that a great deal of harm, emotional and physical, has been inflicted on this group by the Church for generations. There are homeless people living in our area who were kicked out of their homes by parents holding a Bible. There are those who have been subjected to horrific methods that amount to torture under the guise of “Conversion Therapy” from Christian organizations. The only “conversion” we should concern ourselves with is to a regenerate heart. Attempting to change someone’s sexual attraction is very much beside the point. We cannot hope to be a place where such people can hear about Jesus unless they feel safe to enter our doors. We must also fight the tendency to consider sin in this area as something worse than others, even in non-Christians. James 2 says “…For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it….So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.” As we consider corporate and pastoral responses to the argument above, we must start by removing our own planks and repenting for the historical actions of the Church.
Practical steps that we could consider taking would include: removing the statements from the website about marriage and sexuality, especially directly under our Core Beliefs. Again, this is not meant to hide or equivocate on the truth, but not to set such a barrier before someone even walks through our door. Secondly, we should consider how to address these topics within the church. A Sunday morning sermon is not ideal as it is time limited and a unidirectional conversation. A small group course format would be a consideration. We need to equip parents and family members of adolescents, teens, and adults with language to talk about these things in loving, humble, God-honoring ways. In the longer term, we need to consider how we can make our church a place where people would feel comfortable inviting friends and family who look, think and act differently than we do. We need to find a way of projecting safety and inclusion even in our public facing information. This isn’t a balancing act where we must make it clear early and often that we “love the sinner but hate the sin” as the saying goes. We just need to love the sinner. Dealing with the sin can come later God-willing. A third application point is to be mindful of what we say and what we allow to be said without being checked. Certainly, joking at the expense of those who are dealing with these issues is unacceptable, but we also need to work to avoid getting dragged in to pseudo-political discussions on bathroom issues, sports issues or other divisive concerns that have no bearing on the church.
I recognize that these proposals have the potential to divide the church. There are some who may leave the body over these sorts of changes. I would argue that it is our responsibility to them as well as to the unreached in our community to have those discussions and risk some of them leaving over it. These are not all things we should change overnight but after ample opportunities for discussions and prayer.
16: Conclusion – Mark 2:15-17
At its core, these are not issues of who someone loves, sexual attraction, or even specific sex acts. The core is idolatry and identity. When acceptance by others, self-determination, or physical pleasure become the central force driving our lives then we have become idolators. Though our idols take on different shapes, the struggles in this space are shared by all. Whether you are identified by your profession, your family, or your gender identity, you are not being identified by your Master. Building fences around or within the church because someone sins in a different way than us cannot be allowed. Making the excuse that we are somehow “protecting our children” by shielding them from people in our community who desperately need a Savior will not show our children who Jesus is. Within the church, we cannot be afraid to “speak the truth in love.” We need not and cannot shy away from sin in the church, but we must recognize that the Spirit works in each of our lives. Often this happens over a period of time. We should be prepared to walk alongside our brothers and sisters in this journey for as long as they need.
There is a significant correlation between this community and their relationship with religious groups, and the “tax collectors and sinners” that Jesus sought out in His ministry and their relationship with the religious leaders of the day. Our heart should reflect His. Jesus responded: “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” (Mark 2:17) If our church was filled with transgender people and gay families that loved Jesus, God would be glorified.”
Thank you in advance for any constructive criticism, notes of encouragement to and or waiting recommendations on these topics that I can pass along.
2024.05.21 18:01 PaymentActive8238 Struggling to Land a Job After Unexpected Layoff Despite Experience and Effort - Need Advice
I'm reaching out because I'm feeling lost and defeated after an unexpected layoff in late January. Before that, I was making over $200k annually as a Lead PM. I have about 9 years of experience—5 in software development and 4 as a product manager.
Since then, I've been relentlessly applying to PM/PO roles. I've gotten some interviews and even made it to the final rounds, only to be rejected repeatedly. A lot of the jobs being offered are for significantly less money, and the interview processes are grueling. I’ve prepared extensively and performed well, but I keep getting rejected with no feedback.
Recently, a friend let me in on a shocking revelation: the job he had referred me for had over 300 applicants, many more qualified than me (Directors, VPs, etc for a Senior PM role). This insight, coupled with positions being canceled midway through interviews and being ghosted by potential employers, has taken a toll on my mental and physical health. I've also wasted a lot of time talking to third-party recruiters who never followed up.
To make matters worse, a contracting job I secured fell through due to budget issues just weeks before I was set to start. And despite my willingness to relocate at my own expense, companies seem to prefer local candidates, often rejecting me after the final round in favor of someone who can start immediately.
Everything promising is just leading to a dead end.
Adding to the stress, I'm paying for COBRA and rent out of pocket without a steady income stream. This entire ordeal has shattered my confidence, taken a toll on my mental and physical health, and left me feeling depressed. My spouse, an Ivy League grad, is also struggling to find employment as a Analyst.
What's particularly baffling is that five years ago, when I faced a layoff, I secured another job relatively quickly and received multiple offers despite having less experience.
I'm at a loss for what to do next. Any advice or words of encouragement would be greatly appreciated. Has anyone else experienced a similar situation? How did you navigate through it?
Thanks for reading & support!
submitted by PaymentActive8238 to Layoffs [link] [comments]
Since then, I've been relentlessly applying to PM/PO roles. I've gotten some interviews and even made it to the final rounds, only to be rejected repeatedly. A lot of the jobs being offered are for significantly less money, and the interview processes are grueling. I’ve prepared extensively and performed well, but I keep getting rejected with no feedback.
Recently, a friend let me in on a shocking revelation: the job he had referred me for had over 300 applicants, many more qualified than me (Directors, VPs, etc for a Senior PM role). This insight, coupled with positions being canceled midway through interviews and being ghosted by potential employers, has taken a toll on my mental and physical health. I've also wasted a lot of time talking to third-party recruiters who never followed up.
To make matters worse, a contracting job I secured fell through due to budget issues just weeks before I was set to start. And despite my willingness to relocate at my own expense, companies seem to prefer local candidates, often rejecting me after the final round in favor of someone who can start immediately.
Everything promising is just leading to a dead end.
Adding to the stress, I'm paying for COBRA and rent out of pocket without a steady income stream. This entire ordeal has shattered my confidence, taken a toll on my mental and physical health, and left me feeling depressed. My spouse, an Ivy League grad, is also struggling to find employment as a Analyst.
What's particularly baffling is that five years ago, when I faced a layoff, I secured another job relatively quickly and received multiple offers despite having less experience.
I'm at a loss for what to do next. Any advice or words of encouragement would be greatly appreciated. Has anyone else experienced a similar situation? How did you navigate through it?
Thanks for reading & support!
2024.05.21 17:45 Open_Sun_2088 If I call the recruiter who’s supposed to help but isn’t answering, would it reflect poorly on me?
I interviewed for an entry-level hospital position (Patient navigator) 2 weeks ago and both the hiring manager and program supervisor said that their HR recruiter would contact me so I can formally apply for the position. I sent an email to HR recruiter who answered once but then didn’t help me again after I stopped CC’ing the hiring manager. It was literally “Hi, how can I formally apply? - Hi, do you have an account on the Careers website? - Yes. Let me know if you can see it.” And she did not let me know, so i sent 2 follow-up emails. No response so I sent another one last Friday with the hiring manager cc’ed… still crickets.
Should I just call her at this point? I’m not even asking for a job status update, i just wanna know how to formally apply so my application is in the system. But I don’t wanna come off desperate. Like I already cc’ed the manager and she won’t answer me either
submitted by Open_Sun_2088 to careeradvice [link] [comments]
Should I just call her at this point? I’m not even asking for a job status update, i just wanna know how to formally apply so my application is in the system. But I don’t wanna come off desperate. Like I already cc’ed the manager and she won’t answer me either
2024.05.21 17:27 BlockByte_tech What is CI and CD?
 | Today’s Insights: 👈️
What is Continuous Integration (CI) and Continuous Delivery (CD)?Continuous Integration and Continuous Delivery (CI/CD) are practices in software development where code changes are automatically prepared and tested to be released into production, facilitating frequent updates and ensuring high-quality software. Here are some key benefits of implementing Continuous Integration and Continuous Delivery (CI/CD) in your development process:Incremental Code Integration: CI/CD promotes the integration of small, manageable code segments, making them simpler to manage and troubleshoot. This approach is particularly effective for large teams, enhancing communication and prompt problem identification. Isolation of Defects: By employing CI/CD, faults within the system can be isolated more effectively, reducing their impact and easing maintenance efforts. Quick identification and localization of issues prevent extensive damage and streamline repairs. Accelerated Release Cycles: The CI/CD model supports faster release frequencies by enabling continuous merging and deployment of code changes. This ensures that the software remains in a release-ready state, allowing for rapid adaptation to market needs. Reduced Backlog: Implementing CI/CD reduces the backlog by catching and fixing non-critical defects early in the development cycle. This allows teams to concentrate on more significant issues or enhancements, thereby improving overall product quality. Continuous Integration (CI) and Continuous Delivery (CD) Do you like the content? BlockByte What is Continuous Integration (CI)?Continuous Integration (CI) is a software development practice where developers regularly merge their code changes into a central repository, after which automated builds and tests are run. The primary goal of CI is to find and address bugs quicker, improve software quality, and reduce the time it takes to validate and release new software updates.What are the benefits of Continuous Integration?The advantages of CI include improved developer productivity and efficiency, as integration problems are detected and solved early. CI encourages smaller code changes more frequently, which minimizes the risk of disrupting the main branch. This process enhances the code quality and reduces the debugging time, as issues are identified and addressed almost as soon as they are introduced. Additionally, CI enables faster release cycles by allowing teams to integrate their work anytime through automated processes, thereby supporting agile practices.Key Benefits:
What are the risks of Continuous Integration?However, there are also disadvantages and risks associated with CI. The initial setup of CI can be complex and resource-intensive, requiring significant effort to write effective tests and configure the CI pipeline properly. If not implemented carefully, CI can lead to frequent build failures, which may disrupt the development workflow and decrease team morale. Moreover, over-reliance on automated testing might lead to neglect of manual testing, potentially missing out on user experience or complex interaction issues not covered by tests. Lastly, maintaining a CI system requires continuous oversight and updates to test scripts and infrastructure, which can become a burden.Key Risks:
What is Continuous Delivery/Deployment?Continuous Delivery (CD) refers to the software development method where code changes are automatically built, tested, and prepared for a release to production, with the goal of making releases as quick and efficient as possible. Continuous Deployment extends this concept by automatically releasing the changes to the production environment whenever they pass the necessary automated tests. The core principle of both practices is the ability to deploy software at any moment, with high assurance of stability and reliability due to automated delivery processes.What are the benefits of Continuous Delivery / Deployment?Advantages of Continuous Delivery and Deployment are reduced deployment risk, as frequent, smaller updates are less likely to cause major disruptions. This method supports a faster time to market, as the ability to deploy immediately after passing build and test stages greatly shortens the release cycle. Furthermore, the integration of testing and deployment automation helps in swiftly identifying and rectifying issues, which enhances the overall quality of the software. From a customer perspective, the quick iteration of product updates in response to feedback ensures that the product continuously evolves in line with user demands, thus boosting customer satisfaction.Key Benefits:
What are the risks of Continuous Delivery / Deployment?However, the disadvantages include the high initial costs associated with setting up the necessary automation tools and processes. Managing the complexity of multiple environments and deployment pipelines presents significant challenges. The frequency of deployments necessitates robust monitoring systems to quickly resolve any issues that occur post-release. Additionally, the ease of making frequent updates can lead to user overload if not strategically managed, as constant changes may disrupt user experience.Key Risk:
Summary of Continuous Integration (CI) andContinuous Delivery (CD)Continuous Integration (CI) and Continuous Delivery (CD) streamline software development by frequently integrating and automatically deploying code changes. CI focuses on early bug detection and resolution, enhancing software quality and speeding up release cycles. CD extends CI’s capabilities, ensuring software can be deployed immediately after passing automated tests. Together, they minimize deployment risks, improve operational efficiency, and enable rapid market adaptation. Main challenges include the initial setup cost and complexity of managing automated systems and monitoring.Industry Example from Coinbase.comMingshi Wang, a Staff Software Engineer at Coinbase, among others, describes how Coinbase used the Databricks platform to build their CI and CD system and streamline application development and deployment.As Coinbase onboarded more applications to Databricks, they saw the need for a managed approach to reliably build and release them. They developed a robust CI and CD platform that streamlines the orchestration of source code, empowering users to release compute tasks easily while avoiding the complexities of the system. This integration allowed Coinbase to create a seamless deployment system that efficiently handles both batch and streaming data jobs. With this setup, developers can easily configure their applications through simple YAML files, and the CI and CD system ensures consistent deployment by managing all artifacts and tracking job versions. The combination of monitoring, orchestration workflows, and distributed locking provides a smooth development experience, allowing engineers to focus on building their applications without being bogged down by the complexities of deployment logistics. Monitoring: The monitoring system continuously checks the health and status of all jobs. It gathers metrics like the success and failure rates of builds, submission reliability, and the health of individual jobs. Alerts via Slack or PagerDuty ensure that developers are informed immediately if any job encounters issues. Orchestration Workflows: These workflows automate the entire CI and CD cycle from building and testing to deploying and monitoring jobs. They handle job submissions through well-structured API layers and coordinate the entire deployment process. This automation ensures consistency and reduces manual intervention, making the overall workflow smoother. Distributed Locking: This mechanism prevents data corruption by allowing only one job version to write outputs at a time. The new version catches up with the old one through checkpoint data and only gets control when it's ready. This ensures that the switch to the new version doesn't disrupt streaming or batch processing. Source: https://www.coinbase.com/en-de/blog/developing-databricks-ci-cd-at-coinbase __ Content presented by BlockByte |
2024.05.21 17:24 hurricanesurvivor I-130 & I-485 interview scheduled, do sponsor and beneficiary BOTH bring taxes?
My wife (sponsor), is a U.S. citizen and has all her tax information in check and will bring it to the interview.
Me the other hand (beneficiary), I've been in the country for over 25 years without status. I do have a social security number though (in 2012 I got a 2 year work permit from I-821 which then expired). From 2017-2023 I worked for various employers for short amounts of time (without valid work employment authorization). I listed all of this on our application when we filed (to not lie). Every employer, with dates. But since all of the jobs were essentially under the table, I have never filed my taxes for those years. I have no tax return transcripts for myself.
My question is, for this upcoming interview, should I go see a tax specialist beforehand to file the massive backlog of taxes for myself (beneficiary)? Or will they only need to see my wife's (sponsor) tax transcripts.
I'm worried there might be an issue with the officer if he see's my work history and asks if I filed my taxes, which I did not, so I want to be as prepared as possible. I'm just wondering if this is even a possibility.
I do not have any paystubs from my employment or proof of wages or salary. I would have to do it all by memory and I don't even know the exact dates, it was all estimates when I filled out our application.
Any help/suggestions would be immense! Thank you guys!
submitted by hurricanesurvivor to USCIS [link] [comments]
Me the other hand (beneficiary), I've been in the country for over 25 years without status. I do have a social security number though (in 2012 I got a 2 year work permit from I-821 which then expired). From 2017-2023 I worked for various employers for short amounts of time (without valid work employment authorization). I listed all of this on our application when we filed (to not lie). Every employer, with dates. But since all of the jobs were essentially under the table, I have never filed my taxes for those years. I have no tax return transcripts for myself.
My question is, for this upcoming interview, should I go see a tax specialist beforehand to file the massive backlog of taxes for myself (beneficiary)? Or will they only need to see my wife's (sponsor) tax transcripts.
I'm worried there might be an issue with the officer if he see's my work history and asks if I filed my taxes, which I did not, so I want to be as prepared as possible. I'm just wondering if this is even a possibility.
I do not have any paystubs from my employment or proof of wages or salary. I would have to do it all by memory and I don't even know the exact dates, it was all estimates when I filled out our application.
Any help/suggestions would be immense! Thank you guys!
2024.05.21 17:24 BrilliantLock8292 British Citizenship, best way to proof your 5 years of residence
Hello there
I'm in the process of applying for British citizenship online. I'm European, have been here for over 5 years, and I have settled status 5+1. I've got my biometrics appointment this week.
After submitting my application, they've requested a few documents, and I'd like to get your opinion on whether I should include some extra ones just in case.
1. Proof of living in the UK for 5 years:
I've gathered several documents, but I'm not sure which are most effective for proving residence. Here's what I have:
Additional Question:
Should I include a cover letter? I don't have any specific issues to highlight.
Other Documents (No issues with these):
submitted by BrilliantLock8292 to ukvisa [link] [comments]
I'm in the process of applying for British citizenship online. I'm European, have been here for over 5 years, and I have settled status 5+1. I've got my biometrics appointment this week.
After submitting my application, they've requested a few documents, and I'd like to get your opinion on whether I should include some extra ones just in case.
1. Proof of living in the UK for 5 years:
I've gathered several documents, but I'm not sure which are most effective for proving residence. Here's what I have:
- 60 payslips, compiled into a single PDF, sorted by date. I'm missing a couple of months, though.
- P60 forms for each year. I'm not sure how these demonstrate that I worked the entire year.
- A screenshot of my NIN record showing a full year for each entry.
- Employment contracts from 3 different employers. These documents are quite extensive and I'm unsure if it's worth adding them.
- Four different rental agreements. I'm uncertain if these will be helpful.
Additional Question:
Should I include a cover letter? I don't have any specific issues to highlight.
Other Documents (No issues with these):
- Passport
- English test certificate
- Two referee declaration forms
2024.05.21 17:22 Feisty_Principle431 If promoting your music makes you miserable, read this
[To view the original post, click here]
If you’re a musician, then you’re a spiritual person.
You may call yourself an atheist…. or an agnostic…. or Frank, whatever you prefer.
But you’re a spiritual person nonetheless.
Because according to the definition that I just made up in my head as I typed this, spirituality is anything that aspires towards the truth.
Now, you may say this isn’t your goal. You may even be openly running away from problems in your own life. You may even believe that life is inherently meaningless or absurd.
But in music, I am certain you are seeking the truth.
Even you, my jaded friends, the very fact that you’re reading this post is because somewhere in you……….the ember of belief still burns.****
(***Just a heads up, if you aren’t resonating at this point, this will be a very uncomfortable read for you…)
“Now Michael, how do you know I’m seeking the truth? You’re just a man I don’t really know very well…”
I know because I feel the exact same way when I make music.
But the moment the recording light on my phone starts blinking (is that a thing?), whatever truth I aspire towards slips through my fingers.***
(****For those not picking up on this vibe, really appreciate you giving it a shot but this Substack is probably just gonna be more of this… so thanks for coming out!)
--------------------------------------------------------
The other day, I tried to film a YouTube video.
I was gonna talk about music business news and give my thoughts, and in my head, it was beautiful.
I was funny but serious. Authoritative, but also kinda in on the joke. Post-ironic and good spirited.
Me and Preston (who lived in the podcast studio for a brief period of time to get this label off the ground🫡) set up the cameras and got the set looking nice.
I was going to talk about the Universal Music and TikTok dispute. I had some hot takes I wanted to share, and I was ready to spit some facts.
I figured a series talking about music business would be a cool way to align my interest in business with my passion for music. Our parent company (long live the mothership, Mastering.com ⚔️) has a large following on YouTube, so they offered to help me launch the new series.
Preston (🫡 ) printed the earnings reports and had them on my sick looking executive desk (actually $40 on FB marketplace). I even bought those swinging clackers (or Newton’s cradle for chumps) to make my desk look extra slick.
I turned to Preston, and said “let’s rock and roll” or something like that.
Preston hit RECORD.
I took off at a casual but lively gate. I hit a well timed planned joke early and I was hand-gesturing at a steady clip.
I had prepared what I would say a few times in my head… but pretty quickly I started having a hard time stitching the ideas together.
A stumble, a recovery…….. a joke, a nervous laugh! ….a thought about the nervous laugh, a thought about the thought about the nervous laugh….blank…..blank……. darkness……
And before I knew it, whatever truth I was about to bear down on the world evaporated above me.
After about 5 minutes, like a car steaming from the hood, I pulled the show over to the side of the road and shut her down.
I turned to Preston (🫡) and said “oh my gosh this is boring as sh**”.
I was like Walter Cronkite without the believability, charm, or dashing good looks… I had all the pizzaz of an (unsalted) Saltine cracker.
Anyways it was very bad, and I knew it.
And not in the self-pity way… it just clearly wasn’t my thing. I have an interview podcast which felt pretty natural from Day 1, but for some reason when I’m talking to the camera I couldn’t relax.
I knew it would be very bad for a while until I improved.
Now…. I believed I could get good at it if I just put in the time and the effort. But “being good on camera” was never something I wanted to get good at.
I just wanted to be myself and share (what I hoped) was the truth.
I turned to Preston (🫡 )and I said:
“This was a failure, I must go home now.”
A man of my word, I went home and I told my wife what happened, to which she replied:
“yeah I could’ve told you that you would’ve hated filming a YouTube video.”
She was right. She’s always right. And I mean that sincerely.
--------------------------------------------------------
After the sharp sting of a failure wore off, I re-examined how I could promote Mad Records in a way that aligned my interest in business with my passion for music (my original goal with the YouTube video.)
And that night, I started this Substack.
I talked about the UMG / TikTok dispute, and it felt really natural. I was able to write freely, make edits, take breaks, and strive for the truth. I even got to hang out with my sweet 12-year old Maltese queen, Katie, while I wrote it. What a joy.
(You can check out that post here after you finish this!)
And unlike my crushed YouTube aspirations, my article turned out pretty ok - which was a good enough starting point for me.
SO WHAT’S THE POINT?
If you feel like your “content” isn’t capturing the deep, spiritual truth you’re aspiring for with your music, then you have two options:
You just have to build up a pain tolerance for failing publicly.
However, for the love of all things holy, please subscribe to this SubStack…. I can’t fail again I have plans this weekend.)
Long Live Mad Records ⚔️
submitted by Feisty_Principle431 to musicians [link] [comments]
If you’re a musician, then you’re a spiritual person.
You may call yourself an atheist…. or an agnostic…. or Frank, whatever you prefer.
But you’re a spiritual person nonetheless.
Because according to the definition that I just made up in my head as I typed this, spirituality is anything that aspires towards the truth.
Now, you may say this isn’t your goal. You may even be openly running away from problems in your own life. You may even believe that life is inherently meaningless or absurd.
But in music, I am certain you are seeking the truth.
Even you, my jaded friends, the very fact that you’re reading this post is because somewhere in you……….the ember of belief still burns.****
(***Just a heads up, if you aren’t resonating at this point, this will be a very uncomfortable read for you…)
“Now Michael, how do you know I’m seeking the truth? You’re just a man I don’t really know very well…”
I know because I feel the exact same way when I make music.
But the moment the recording light on my phone starts blinking (is that a thing?), whatever truth I aspire towards slips through my fingers.***
(****For those not picking up on this vibe, really appreciate you giving it a shot but this Substack is probably just gonna be more of this… so thanks for coming out!)
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The other day, I tried to film a YouTube video.
I was gonna talk about music business news and give my thoughts, and in my head, it was beautiful.
I was funny but serious. Authoritative, but also kinda in on the joke. Post-ironic and good spirited.
Me and Preston (who lived in the podcast studio for a brief period of time to get this label off the ground🫡) set up the cameras and got the set looking nice.
I was going to talk about the Universal Music and TikTok dispute. I had some hot takes I wanted to share, and I was ready to spit some facts.
I figured a series talking about music business would be a cool way to align my interest in business with my passion for music. Our parent company (long live the mothership, Mastering.com ⚔️) has a large following on YouTube, so they offered to help me launch the new series.
Preston (🫡 ) printed the earnings reports and had them on my sick looking executive desk (actually $40 on FB marketplace). I even bought those swinging clackers (or Newton’s cradle for chumps) to make my desk look extra slick.
I turned to Preston, and said “let’s rock and roll” or something like that.
Preston hit RECORD.
I took off at a casual but lively gate. I hit a well timed planned joke early and I was hand-gesturing at a steady clip.
I had prepared what I would say a few times in my head… but pretty quickly I started having a hard time stitching the ideas together.
A stumble, a recovery…….. a joke, a nervous laugh! ….a thought about the nervous laugh, a thought about the thought about the nervous laugh….blank…..blank……. darkness……
And before I knew it, whatever truth I was about to bear down on the world evaporated above me.
After about 5 minutes, like a car steaming from the hood, I pulled the show over to the side of the road and shut her down.
I turned to Preston (🫡) and said “oh my gosh this is boring as sh**”.
I was like Walter Cronkite without the believability, charm, or dashing good looks… I had all the pizzaz of an (unsalted) Saltine cracker.
Anyways it was very bad, and I knew it.
And not in the self-pity way… it just clearly wasn’t my thing. I have an interview podcast which felt pretty natural from Day 1, but for some reason when I’m talking to the camera I couldn’t relax.
I knew it would be very bad for a while until I improved.
Now…. I believed I could get good at it if I just put in the time and the effort. But “being good on camera” was never something I wanted to get good at.
I just wanted to be myself and share (what I hoped) was the truth.
I turned to Preston (🫡 )and I said:
“This was a failure, I must go home now.”
A man of my word, I went home and I told my wife what happened, to which she replied:
“yeah I could’ve told you that you would’ve hated filming a YouTube video.”
She was right. She’s always right. And I mean that sincerely.
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After the sharp sting of a failure wore off, I re-examined how I could promote Mad Records in a way that aligned my interest in business with my passion for music (my original goal with the YouTube video.)
And that night, I started this Substack.
I talked about the UMG / TikTok dispute, and it felt really natural. I was able to write freely, make edits, take breaks, and strive for the truth. I even got to hang out with my sweet 12-year old Maltese queen, Katie, while I wrote it. What a joy.
(You can check out that post here after you finish this!)
And unlike my crushed YouTube aspirations, my article turned out pretty ok - which was a good enough starting point for me.
SO WHAT’S THE POINT?
If you feel like your “content” isn’t capturing the deep, spiritual truth you’re aspiring for with your music, then you have two options:
- Give yourself the time to improve. Be patient and expect no results in the meantime. If results happen, then congrats, you’re now good at that thing.
- Give yourself grace for falling short of your vision, and find a different medium/method that captures it. Nurse your wounds with people who understand what you’re trying to accomplish.
You just have to build up a pain tolerance for failing publicly.
However, for the love of all things holy, please subscribe to this SubStack…. I can’t fail again I have plans this weekend.)
Long Live Mad Records ⚔️
- mike
2024.05.21 17:10 SecretIce1857 Got my FIRST EVER job!
Hey guys so I've always struggled a lot with anxiety + other things growing up to a point where I just stayed in my room all day and struggled for about 3-4 years feeling like a letdown to everyone around me. I've been applying for jobs for about a year and genuinely felt like I'll never get one due to struggling so much with interviews but I FINALLY GOT A JOB!!! It's pretty much an entry level IT job where I'll be helping people with any issues they're having and some other general IT stuff.
I received the phone call from the employer yesterday (i hate calls so much) but he told me the good news and I genuinely felt like crying because this is my first time getting a job offer LOL.
Anyway, after the initial excitement wore off after a day I realised that I am actually terrified of starting, as I've never worked before and the job will mean I'll be answering a lot of phone calls, which I hate, but I think this can help me out a lot with slowly getting over dreading phone calls. I'm also worried that I'll mess up A LOT and my coworkers will hate me for it.
I'm 24 so I feel like I'm starting my career really late compared to everyone else but I'm excited and TERRIFIED of the whole thing as it will be completely new to me. Does anyone have any advice of how dealt with their first job, how it went etc? I start in 3 weeks so I want to be quite prepared but I'm not sure if I'm overthinking this. so any advice would be appreciated.
Thank you.
submitted by SecretIce1857 to jobs [link] [comments]
I received the phone call from the employer yesterday (i hate calls so much) but he told me the good news and I genuinely felt like crying because this is my first time getting a job offer LOL.
Anyway, after the initial excitement wore off after a day I realised that I am actually terrified of starting, as I've never worked before and the job will mean I'll be answering a lot of phone calls, which I hate, but I think this can help me out a lot with slowly getting over dreading phone calls. I'm also worried that I'll mess up A LOT and my coworkers will hate me for it.
I'm 24 so I feel like I'm starting my career really late compared to everyone else but I'm excited and TERRIFIED of the whole thing as it will be completely new to me. Does anyone have any advice of how dealt with their first job, how it went etc? I start in 3 weeks so I want to be quite prepared but I'm not sure if I'm overthinking this. so any advice would be appreciated.
Thank you.
2024.05.21 17:10 West-Situation-9081 Background investigation 1811
Hi all, currently going through the BI with the USSS. I’ve gotten BQA 2 years ago after my security interview and now that I passed my security,Poly, Medical and home interview so worried that I’ll get BQA after all of that. The BQA still haunts me till this day so I’m just so worried that they can and do BQA at this end of process. If anyone has experience or info about this please share and let me know.
My background is clean no drugs,no alcohol, some travel abroad, duel citizenship but I mentioned that I’ll renounce it, 9 foreign contacts but they don’t have any government jobs and most of them under the age of 21 because they’re my cousins. My reference and employers have been contacted already and all say good things expect for 1 job. Is this going to be a problem? I want to reach out to the investigator to explain the discrepancy because he didn’t mention anything about the job that gave me a bad review but when I reached out to my FO to check on the status they mentioned that if HQ has questions they will reach out. Is that too late to explain the discrepancy to my investigator or since he didn’t contact me he doesn’t think it’s a deal breaker? Thank you so much!!
submitted by West-Situation-9081 to usajobs [link] [comments]
My background is clean no drugs,no alcohol, some travel abroad, duel citizenship but I mentioned that I’ll renounce it, 9 foreign contacts but they don’t have any government jobs and most of them under the age of 21 because they’re my cousins. My reference and employers have been contacted already and all say good things expect for 1 job. Is this going to be a problem? I want to reach out to the investigator to explain the discrepancy because he didn’t mention anything about the job that gave me a bad review but when I reached out to my FO to check on the status they mentioned that if HQ has questions they will reach out. Is that too late to explain the discrepancy to my investigator or since he didn’t contact me he doesn’t think it’s a deal breaker? Thank you so much!!