Hi folks. I was told I may be olive but I am unsure. Photos are taken in natural light. Second photo is absolutely zero makeup (apologies for this!!); first photo is me wearing Ilia skin tint in shade ST7, Diaz, the closest shade they could find to my skin which I note is medium - neutral. I have a bit of a tan at the moment on my chest area but you can see the colour difference on my neck, which isn’t tanned at all. I think my skin is yellowish which is really confusing me- is it possible to be olive with a yellow overtone? You can also see this in the photo with my arm next to my partners (mine is right). Also I find it very hard to take a photo of my arm without it looking a bit off but this is the closest I could get. Excuse my dog sleeping in the background.
Thanks so much!

Hey guys, i really dont know how to start lol. I feel like a youtuber. Anyway you know there is a Hybe drama and i was so invested because i hate both Bang Pd (I'm an Engene and prob Engenes know the reasons) and Mhj (well she's a pe*o). I was sure that this was going to effect groups but i didnt think that it was going to this big. If you look at my account i've never been an Army. I have zero interest with BTS. I have zero reason to support Bang pd which i have comments about crictizing Hybe and Bang pd over sexualizing the young idols (Niki, Jungwon, Eunchae) and how he was treating Enha like his stepsons, overworking them bla bla. Anyway i really dont want to branded as company stan but my account is open you can read my old comments.
So the real deal is: How Mhj (or someone behind her) using the bots and it's way worse than you thought. Some people talking about bots in yt videos but guys the worst place is twitter. I dont know how to say without sound cruel but idk about what's going on between them. A billion dollar company's shares are falling down, oh such a bad thing! But this cult thing made me so angry. Like i'm okay play your cards make your media-play. Hybe was the one who started to mediaplay by revealing everything to do media but using a cult rumor to get away from your crimes, dropping names? Girl you're the one who use pe****ilia as an aesthetic you're the last one who can talk. Also did we collectively forget that Park Jinyoung is an open cultist and he's in the cult who's allegedly responsible for Sewol?
Anyway i was always interested in Internet Bots and their effects on public opinion. If you want to read about this i can give you some recommendations but i dont want to this post to be too much politic. But i'm used to this bots and public manipulation because my country's president use bots to.
As i said i'm used to it, also i took some classes about finding the bots and avoid the misinformation on internet. Since Elon bought the Twitter and fired the half of the Twitter team AND created this blue check thing, there are more bots than ever. At least twitter team were deleting some of those accounts. But Elon literally doesnt care so twt is a misinformation world.
When i said finding the bots i didnt mean that i'm going to pull a Mr. Robot. We're just checking the accounts and try to see the patterns. I started with checking the popular tweets but Korean side looks worse. I'll write the things i checked one by one so you can check it too. Because i cant add 50 photos in one post and also there is a possibility that i got into the journalism thing so much, so bot accounts could still be real accounts.
First of all i searched on twitter about "Hybe Cult", "Illit Plagiarism", "Bang Sihyuk" "Min HeeJin". I collected 21 popular tweets. What i learned about my class: The most important thing is reposts/retweets. Tweeting about something doesnt make the topic popular anymore. Algorithym is more different right now. So bots are retweeting the main tweets to make them popular instead of writing 50 different tweet about that topic.
● FIRST IMAGE So the first tweets i checked was the ones when i searched "Illit Plagiarism".The '1' photo is the first tweet i checked. I looked at the retweeters and realized the account '2' opened in April 2024, all of the posts they retweet either about other kpop groups or popular Anti-Hybe tweets. Which is such a normal thing. I use my second account to retweet things from my idols too. But then when i go back to the tweet '1' retweeters, i realized a pattern. Accounts either opened in January, February, March or April 2024. (I'm turkish so Subat/Feb, Mart/March, Nisan/April). They dont tweet anything. They only like or retweet. Which either about supporting Mhj, attacking Hybe or other kpop tweets. Liking and retweeting about other random things to not get caught is something bots do. I checked the accounts. In one of their retweet they praise Aespa's fandom power over boy groups, in another retweet they call Aespa flops because IVE passed them on album. Idk guys. Again i'm telling you, you can check them too. It's really not that long. All checking thing took my an hour while babysitting. But yeah writing takes the longest.
This is the three accounts over one tweet. I'm not able to add but this post's reposters full of bots. Then before checking other viral tweets i looked the tweet in the photos '3 and 4'. And again i found the same pattern.
● SECOND IMAGE Then we have another tweet i checked. I searched "Hybe Cult" on twitter. In photos you'll see a tweet written by user tricky. It' such a long thread and it's literally gold mine to find the bots. I find most of the bots on cult tweets. Photo 1: An account with no tweets, just retweets and only retweets things about this issue. It created in November 2023 but they only started to use in april. Photo 2 and 3 is belong the same account. Account created in April 2024, they have 455 posts but all of them retweets about Hybe Mhj drama. Photo 4-5: Again same account. Created in March 2024, again etiher retweet ciral tweets or this issue. Photo 6: Same pattern, created in april. Only retweets this. You can check that viral tweet. So many bots retweeting and liking it. I counted more than 60 bots and i didnt even checked half of the retweeters, but i'm not able to share on reddit. This is why i'm using collages :")))
● THIRD IMAGE A little tired but anyway. We have another tweet and i realized another pattern, no matter of when the account created, they only started to post in either in march or april. While i was checking this tweet i found so many bot accounts. But i'm adding this account as only example because until now i showed you the tweet and the reposters. But to understand how bots and manipulation works you need the see this. 1: Is the tweet, 2: Is the account. And the rest is the tweets they reposted. As much as you realize this account either reposted thing about this issue or yaoi. As i said bots try to not get caught so they like other random things but there is always a pattern. When i look at the other accounts they either like other kpop groups, yaoi, random viral tweets or animals. You can check the reposters of this post and you'll see that there are so many accounts like this example. After 10 minutes later i quitted because it has 3k reposters :/ but if you check it you can see bots too.
My English is still bad sorry about this (i should have learned English before German), i'll try to explain it but if you dont get it please say it. Basically this bot farms give commands to the bots, and bots repost it. Basically it's just this. To not caught they gave them different command to like different things; but their aim isnt to hide themself. They are just trying to control public opinion. Make false posts to go viral so nobody learns the truth. So their abilities are limited. They repost 4 tweet about Mhj, then they repost 2 things about animals, 4 Mhj, 2 animals...
And the real deal is Korean accounts but idk i was going to write it but i dont i have energy to write a post about it. Also i feel like i'm in another Slave Room thing, i talked so much about bots but there are main tweets. Such as the first Hybe Cult tweet. Anyway i wasnt able to give so much examples because somehow i couldnt add photos. But if you search the terms i said, look at the reposters and check the accounts, you can see the pattern too. What i wonder is; Hybe def was trying to do some mediaplay, but are they using bots too? I dont care about their well being but i hope this ends. I'm already bored HYBE WHERE IS THE ENHYPEN'S FULL ALBUM! Their first album had 6 songs 🥲 and it was in 2021.
Lastly, idk how things work in Sk but using this amount of bots isnt normal. Either Mhj paid so much money for bot farms or she has some back up. I tried to look at this Saudi Arabian investors but this thread is already full of theories i dont think we need that more.
Before end it, this is really nothing guys. Korean bots were worse. It's like i'm Katycat and watching Dark Horse Illuminati videos again. Min Heejin please next time use different patterns on your bots.

Looking for guidance! I had a professional makeup trial last month but both didn’t quite feel like myself and am not sure if I can afford it for my big day. I have been exploring the idea of doing my own makeup, but stopped wearing makeup during the pandemic and have been pretty out of practice! Photos go from indoor to outdoor to no makeup, and here are photos of my previous professional trial.
For those who don’t want to read a long post: - ISO waterproof/cry-proof mascara comparable to the Ilia Limitless Lash I currently love. I like a brush with a ridged comb running alone one edge - ISO waterproof/cry-proof liner comparably to Fenty’s Flyliner. Currently using that in brown and really love an eyeliner with a flexible felt marker-type tip - ISO brow products for naturally filling in gaps. My brows are tattooed and I did nothing to them in these photos, so please don’t judge their shape and symmetry at the moment! Was more focused on getting my base right :’) - Is my blush/contour okay? I’m using the Makeup Forever HD Skin Face Essentials Palette and am still trying to figure out best colors for my tone and how heavy to go. - ISO general tips and techniques for applying base (primer, blush, contour, foundation, etc!)
I have some skin sensitivities for which I am being treated similar to rosacea. I’m not particularly oily, but am in my mid thirties and am most concerned about dry patches and fine lines around my eyes. I’ve been working on improving my skincare with my dermatologist and an aesthetician at his clinic, and I know that + hydration will be the biggest help with the fine lines. Below are the products I used to achieve this look:
Face - Wet N Wild Photofocus Face Primer - Armani Luminous Silk Concealer in 1.5 - Estée Lauder Double Wear Foundation (1C1) - Makeup Forever HD Skin Face Essentials Palette (blush & contour) - Fenty Demi-Glow Highlighter in 02 Prosecco - Laura Mercier Ultra Blur Loose Setting Powder in Translucent - Charlotte Tillbury Airbrush Flawless Setting Spray
Eyes - Lid: “Commando” from UD Naked Ultimate Basics - Outer lid & crease: “Faith” from UD Naked Ultimate Basics - Center lid: “Stark” from UD Naked Basics 2 - Liner wing into crease: “Cayenne” from UD Naked Heat - Liner wing/upper lash line: “Ashes” from UD Naked Heat - Lower lash line: “Ember” from UD Naked Heat - Inner cornelid: “Ounce” from UD Naked Heat - Tight inner corner: Fenty Demi-Glow Highlighter in 02 Prosecco - Inner lid: Stila Glitter & Glow Liquid Eyeshadow in “Kitten Kaleidoscope” - Ilia Limitless Lash Mascara - Fenty Flyliner in Brown
Lips - UD 24/7 Glide On Lip Pencil in “Broken” - UD Comfort Matte Lipstick in “Uptight”
Other than my brows (again, I didn’t touch those and would shape and very lightly fill in any gaps), please let me know if anything looks bad or off or seems like it won’t hold up for a full wedding day! I’d much rather have honest feedback and make changes than be unhappy with photos because my makeup was melting off or super faded!

What is it?

The ILIA Skin Rewind Complexion Stick is a multi-tasking makeup product that combines foundation, concealer, and skincare benefits in one convenient stick. It offers buildable, medium coverage with a natural matte finish and claims to last up to 12 hours.

Key Features:

• All-in-one: Provides foundation, concealer, and skincare benefits.
• Buildable coverage: Offers sheer to medium coverage, allowing you to customize the look.
• Natural matte finish: Controls shine without appearing flat or mask-like.
• Long-lasting: Up to 12 hours of wear.
• Pores and texture blurring: Minimizes the appearance of pores and uneven texture.
• Anti-aging ingredients: Contains ingredients that help firm, smooth, and soften fine lines and wrinkles.
• Extensive shade range: Available in 42 shades to cater to a wide variety of skin tones.

Key Ingredients:

• Ceramide-Peptide Complex: Strengthens the skin barrier and promotes a firmer appearance.
• Winged Kelp Extract: Restores luminosity and gives a youthful look.
• Butterfly Lavender Extract: Smooths the appearance of fine lines and wrinkles.

Shades and Swatches:

The ILIA Skin Rewind Complexion Stick comes in a whopping 42 shades! This review showcases five shades: 4N Holly, 9H Tupelo, 22C Sugi, 28N Mora, and 36C Padauk.

Before and After Photos:

The reviewer found shade 9N Tupelo to be the best match for their neutral skin tone. It seamlessly blended into their natural skin tone, unlike the ILIA Super Serum Skin Tint SPF30 where they wear shade 7. It’s important to note that the shades between these two product lines don’t directly correlate.
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Review

The reviewer is a big fan of foundation sticks for their convenience and ease of use. While they previously loved the bareMinerals Complexion Rescue Foundation Stick for its hydrating and dewy finish, they believe the ILIA Skin Rewind might be a worthy replacement.
Here’s a breakdown of the reviewer’s experience:

• Formula: The ILIA formula is slightly thicker and has a more matte finish compared to the bareMinerals’ dewier formula. However, it’s not a completely flat matte and allows the skin’s natural glow to show through.
• Coverage and Blending: The product effectively blurs pores and evens out skin texture. It blends effortlessly and can be layered for additional coverage in areas that need it.
• Finish and Wear Time: The soft matte finish helps control shine and the formula wears well on the reviewer’s combination skin. It even held up well despite using tissues due to a cold, requiring only a minor touch-up around the nose.
• Concealer: The formula is gentle enough for the delicate under-eye area and effectively conceals redness and pigmentation.
• Skin Type Suitability: ILIA claims the product is suitable for all skin types. The reviewer believes it’s particularly good for oily skin due to the matte finish, while dry skin can benefit from the skincare ingredients and emollient formula. However, dry skin users might want to prep with a richer moisturizer for a dewier look.

Additional Considerations:

• Shade Matching: As mentioned earlier, the shade range for the Skin Rewind Stick doesn’t correspond with the Super Serum Skin Tint shades. The reviewer provides a list of their shade matches in other foundation brands for reference.
• Matte Finish: While designed to be matte, it’s not a flat matte and allows some natural radiance to come through.
• Mature Skin: The anti-aging ingredients make this product a good option for mature skin types.

Overall, the ILIA Skin Rewind Complexion Stick is a versatile product that offers buildable coverage, a natural matte finish, and skincare benefits. It’s easy to use, long-lasting, and suitable for a variety of skin types, especially oily and mature skin.

Background on me, I never had acne in highschool. I never had acne in college. I just never had acne… flash forward to last year when I started using Ilia Skin tint.. and it clogged all of my pores.. At first my face was covered in little tiny bumps, so I went to a dermatologist who put me on tretinoin and I fell apart. I cried almost every day, I didn’t know how much my skin meant to me and my identity.. i didn’t know how acne could affect my mental health.. i canceled trips, I missed out on so many things.. I spent hours googling and listening to positive affirmation podcasts. I went to two different dermatologists. Both wanted me on Accutane. The second dermatologist gave me Azelaic acid and told me to stop using tretinoin… I didn’t actually listen to them, instead I listened to Reddit and multiple people who layered moisturizer, then tretinoin+ moisturizer, then a layer of azelaic acid+ moisturizer. My skin is back, but I still struggle with dysphoria. I keep these photos as a reminder. To everyone in this group, you are not alone in this. You are more than your acne, and this is fing hard. It steals from your self esteem. Whenever someone would look at me, I felt they were looking through me.
First photo is from September, the peak of my acne and depression. Last photo is this week, mascara and eyebrows only. It’s hard to believe..

Someone on here was recently asking about the Haus Labs concealer in 02, so I decided to make some swatches.
First picture: swatches of products on a white sheet of paper lit by a nearby window. Products in the lefthand column: Milk Makeup Future Fluid Concealer 2C (I tried to mix in yellow eyeshadow, so it might look different from the original color), Haus Labs concealer in 02, Maybelline Fit Me Concealer in Fair, Kosas concealer 1.5C, Maybelline Fit Me Matte and Poreless 112, Kosas foundation in 140N. Products in the righthand column: Covergirl Trublend Undercover L200, ILIA True Skin Serum Concealer Mallow SCO.5, Covergirl TruBlend Pressed Powder 2 (discontinued?), Dermablend flawless creator 15C, Neutrogena SkinClearing complexion perfector light 20 (discontinued), 1:1 Kosas foundation + green primer
Second picture: swatches of products on a white sheet of paper lit by white lighting. Ditto products.
Third picture: swatches of products on a white sheet of paper lit by yellow lighting. Ditto products.
Fourth picture: swatches on my face-neck in daylight from a window. Right to left: Milk Makeup 2C, Covergirl concealer L200, Haus Labs 02, ILIA SC0.25, Fit Me concealer in Fair.
Fifth picture: more swatches on my face-neck in window lighting. Right to left: Kosas concealer 1.5C, Dermablend 15C, Maybelline foundation 112, Covergirl powder in 2. The highest swatch on my face is of the Kosas foundation in 140N, and the one below that is of a 1:1 mixture of 140N and a green primer.
Sixth picture: face-neck swatches in indoor white light. Ditto products from the 4th picture.
Seventh picture: face-neck swatches in indoor white light. Ditto products from the 5th picture.
Eighth picture: face-neck swatches in indoor yellow light. Ditto products from the 4th picture.
Ninth picture: face-neck swatches in indoor yellow light. Ditto products from the 5th picture.
For all the naysayers out there who might see some of the comparisons and think I’ve gotten my undertone wrong (I’m not this pink in real life, I promise! The colors in the photos look way different!):
Tenth, eleventh, and twelfth: pictures of my face with the 140+green primer mixture and Haus Labs 02 concealer as highlighter blended out in indoor yellow lighting, white lighting, and window lighting.
Thirteenth, fourteenth, fifteenth: pictures of my face with Maybelline Fit Me Matte and Poreless in 112 (the foundation I wore before getting the Kosas one) with no mixer blended out in yellow light, white light, and window light.

Cannot believe I’m posting my face on Reddit!!!
After losing probably 15 cumulative hours of my life trying to figure this out with TikTok filters, can y’all help type me? Can’t figure out if I lean more spring or summer, and the chat gpt trick said I was an autumn which was my final straw in coming here lmao.
Floral dress photo I have super light makeup on (bit of Ilia blush, mascara). Included it since it’s brighter than most clothes I wear. Others are no makeup to best of my memory.
Also - my hair is a dirty blonde/light brown and the third photo (light blue dress) is way lighter /more highlighted than how I’ve been wearing it more recently. Have been slowly returning to something closer to my natural color which is most accurate in the final photo!

Hi guys.. long time lurker here. Like a lot of people on this subreddit I struggle with matching base products to my skin. It doesn’t help that my skin tone is not consistent across my face. I popped into a store to swatch some potential candidates and took a couple photos for my reference - I thought I’d add them here in case it helps anyone. First picture in direct sunlight, next two in indirect sunlight. Top row ( wrist to knuckle): ILIA stick foundation 13O, 17O Bottom row (wrist to knuckle): Rose Inc foundation 16W, Lisa Eldridge foundation 16

I’ve been using a randomizer this week (no make up Friday or Saturday) and I’ve been loving it! I had so many products I had never used and it’s helping me see which ones I really like and which I really don’t like and are going to throw out.
Photos in order of Sunday, Thursday, Wednesday, Tuesday - last photo is NARS Orgasm 4 play palette
Todays products:
rare beauty blush happy nars orgasm foreplay palette (shade orgasm) It cc cream milk hydro grip mario sculpting stick Patrick ta bronzer♥️ charlotte tilbury cream bronzer♥️ charlotte tilbury powder♥️ milk highlighter lit givenchy concealer♥️ Pat McGrath trio palette 🌟
Other products from this week: - make up forever foundation - westman atelier petal blush🌟 - Dior face palette♥️ - plouise ceo highlighter palette🌟 - kosas sunscreen primer♥️ - lys contour stick - Victoria Beckham contour♥️ - Patrick ta bronzer contour♥️ - too faced bronzer - ilia mascara♥️ - nars creamy concealer - Chanel rouge Baume “light”♥️ - make up forever boundless berry lip liner♥️ - ABH blush stick pink dahlia - RMS Bermuda rose blush - pixi bronzer - too faced concealer - too faced foundation - westman atelier contour biscuit 🌟 - Mac Studio radiance serum foundation♥️ - Laura mercier blurring primer - beaubble blush - hourglass highlighter champagne 🌟 - plouise ceo highlight palette🌟
🌟 = first time trying the product and love it ♥️ = all time favorites
Products I tried this week im getting rid of - make up by Mario foundation (expired) - Bobbi brown foundation (cakey and patchy) - too faced candy cloud blush (dull) - pixi bronzer (no pigment) - Patrick ta foundation duo (too much coverage and cakey) -it cc cream (patchy and couldn’t blend) - Milk hydro grip primer (might try again, couldn’t blend foundation it just stuck wear I placed product) - NARS fourplay palette (maybe I like the highlight)
8 products decluttered! 😄

Hi! New here so please bear with me. I have a very hard time seeing myself objectively for shades. Last spring/summer, I was wearing Anastasia Luminous in 130N (last photo). Now that the little bit of color I get from the sun has faded, it feels a little dark (or maybe too pinkish/orangey). Sephora was very little help. They sent me home with the Ilia and Hourglass ones listed below.
In the past, I’ve strayed away from “cool” shades because wearing those in natural light gave me the appearance of having just run a marathon. But now I’m starting to wonder if they were just too pigmented. I actually find myself saying foundations are too orangey, too yellow, or too pink.
I’ve included several swatches as well as reference with the blue/red swatches. Each is in a series of three: soft white, cool white, and daylight. Unfortunately Midwest winter hadn’t really let me set these in daylight yet.
Swatches from top to bottom are: 1) NARS Light Reflecting Foundation - Mont Blanc 2) Rare Beauty Weightless Foundation - 130N 3) Anastasia Luminous Foundation - 130N 4) Fenty Drop Blurring Skin Tint - Shade 2 5) Hourglass Veil Skin Tint - Shade 1 6) Ilia Serum Skin Tint - Rendezvous Shade 1
What would you all recommend I try next?

So, lately I was curious about Olympic upsets, and whether were was really some relative unknowns or something that against all odds managed to grab at least a Bronze at the Olympics. Quantifying “unknowns” is a bit hard if you weren’t there for the period in question, so I decided to look at whether all Olympic medalist had won a medal at a prior major competition, and compiled them all in a single google sheet. (This is what I do with my hands when I’m listening to a podcast in my free time, apparently). Although I restricted myself to the time the GPF was created until now, to give myself a framework. I was kinda surprised.
Conclusion, in the last 25 years, meaning since the GPF was established, the number of Olympic medalists who had not medaled at a prior major event (GPF, Euro/4CC, Worlds) is 0. And if we very specifically restrict the requirements to only the Olympic cycle prior, the only medalist with no major medals is Kaori Sakamoto, since her last major medal was Gold at 2018 4CC, which belongs to the previous Olympic cycle, and not the one she won her Olympic bronze. And even then, one could guess that Covid had an impact on the available medaling opportunities.
Maybe this is something of a fun fact more than anything really useful, but I thought it was somewhat interesting to know when it comes to Olympic assignments.
Everyone who has ever medaled at the Olympics had at least some level of reputation being built. Even athletes who didn’t have much opportunities, such as 15-year-old Alina Zagitova only coming on the scene in the Olympic season, collected enough major medals in that same season, as well as built a reputation in Juniors in the previous one.
If you want to look for yourselves, here is the link to the google sheet, and here embedded are images, although I don’t know how readable they are on Reddit. Next to each medal is the year they won it.
Pairs
Dance
Women
Men
Overall these tables I made are mostly a look at how each medalist built their reputation prior to the Olympic, based entirely on their results at major competitions (so no records, or any qualitative analysis), so each entry only has the medals relevant to that Olympic cycle. I made the maybe strange decision to use the Olympics as the cutting point, and add therefore the post-Olympics Worlds to the next cycle. It didn’t really affect results, but well. I also added Junior competitions, since it seemed relevant for new seniors such as Zagitova.
Since I already was there, I decided to give them a kind of numerical value of this reputation based on results, to see which medalist going in had the previous results to support them, and who was more of a long shot. A gold gave one 3 points, silver 2, bronze 1, and they all added up.
I don’t claim this is in any form objective or whatever, since it’s mostly a numerical look I did for myself to keep my hands busy, and it doesn’t at all analyze the period of time or the competitive environment, or skaters taking seasons off, etc. Juniors and Euros/4CC have probably too much weight here. If you see any mistakes, please let me know. You guys seemed a little bit interested in it, so, I thought I might share with you. I actually would love to see if any of you had any insight on the competitive environments depicted here.
But anyway here’s some highlights:
Least points going in for gold:

• Sarah Hughes (7)
• Ilia Kulik (12)
• Savchenko/Massot and Kazakova/Dimitriev (11)
• Virtue/Moir in 2018 (13)

Least for Silver:

• Sasha Cohen (9)
• Evgeni Plushenko in 2010 (6)
• Stolbova/Klimov (3)
• Lobacheva/Averbukh (7)

Least for Bronze:

• Kaori Sakamoto (0)
• Timothy Goebel and Denis Ten (2)
• Mishina/Galliamov (11)
• Anissina/Peizerat in 1998 (4)

Most for Gold:

• Yuna Kim in 2010 (22)
• Alexei Yagudin (29)
• Totmianina/Marinin (30)
• Davis/White in 2014 (32)

Most for Silver:

• Evgenia Medvedeva (28)
• Evgeni Plushenko in 2002 and Patrick Chan (23)
• Qing/Jian (18)
• Papadakis/Cizeron in 2018 (26)

Most for Bronze:

• Irina Slutskaya in 2006 (24)
• Javier Fernandez (25)
• Savchenko/Szolkowy in 2014 (25)
• Fusar-Poli/Margaglio and Domnina/Shabalin (17)