Obs: pode ser mais de uma
Me: Hallowed Be Thy Name (Iron Maiden), Forever And One (Helloween), Carry On, Angels Cry (Angra), Evil Pagagali (Massacration), Redneck (Lamb Of God), Freezing Moon (Mayhem), Moth In Flame (Metallica)

I need songs that would work as graduation songs, I've been told nothing over 5 minutes and it has to be "appropriate for graduation" which apparently means about moving forward or moving on from a tough time. Any thoughts from you guys? Only one I can think of is Carry On by Angra but that might be out of my vocal range. Preferrably with a low-mid range tenor singer, but I can work with almost anything

If you take a look at the mats, sure the ones that release every new chapter are related to the monsters and enemies you fight in there, but did the original launch materials have any relation to the original Fate/Stay Night or other spinoffs or things in the Type-Moon universe or meant to be references to them?
From the list that I can remember and possibly associated things:
Bronze Mats
Proof of Hero - Something to do with either Gilgamesh for Heracles from FSN? Vaguely recall something like this?
Dragon Fang - Reference to Medea's Tooth Warriors.
Void Dust - Refers to Dark Sakura and the Grail Corruption I think, specifically her use of Imaginary Space.
Evil Bone - Also related the Grail Corruption and the concept of Curses as a whole. Did the Matou do something specific with Bones? I just remember worms.
Silver Mats
Yggdrasil Seed - No clue.
Eternal Gear - I believe this could refer to Touko Aozaki's dollcrafting and the puppet bodies she makes.
Phoenix Feather - No clue.
Ghost Lantern - Maybe Gray and Add? On one hand you can see it as a birdcase, but I also saw it as a lantern and it's appropriate for her role as a gravekeeper.
Forbidden Page - It looks like the Book of False Attendant that Shinji had burning up, but forbidden books are kind of a dime a dozen in fantasy.
Serpent Jewel - Something about Medusa I guess? But I don't recall stuff about jewels besides Rin's, which look totally unrelated to this.
Homunculus Baby - The Einzberns or the Yggdmillennia homunculi, but the ones we saw were always fairly grown. Did Paracelsus show up carrying flasks of these in Fragments of Sky Silver?
Gold Mats
Dragon's Reverse Scale - A reference to Artoria's dragon nature, and kind of a deep cut but I think it might work as a reference to Fate Hollow Ataraxia where Rin muses about dragon myths and how they always have a scale you shouldn't touch or they'll go crazy, and wonders what Saber's could be since she's a dragon (it's her ahoge)
Octuplet Crystals - Did any of Avicebron's golem crafting in Fate Apocrypha show something like this?
Claw of Chaos - No clue
Heart of Demon God - The description kind of makes it sound like it's related to Angra Mainyu?
Special Mats
Crystallized Lore - Kinda looks like stuff you'd find related to the Moon Cell or the Atlas Institute.
Holy Grail - The Grail from FSN.

I am not The OOP's, OOP's are u/throwra-fil & u/Angra-Momyu
Wife (37f) and I (40m) are arguing about her father (65m) moving in with us. What should do?
Originally posted to relationship_advice & TrueOffMyChest
TRIGGER WARNING: infidelity, verbal abuse, manipulation, sexism, elitism, neglect, child abandonment
Husband is u/throwra-fil
Wife is u/Angra-Momyu
Original Post Dec 30, 2023
Wife (37f) and I (40m) are arguing about her father (65m) moving in with us. What should do?
There's a lot of background here so Ill try and keep it to what's relevant. Married 10 years, dated 3 before that we have 2 kids. Her parents are divorced. Her mom comes from a wealthy family and when her parents got married her family did a lot of legal and financial stuff and prenups and stuff to keep the money safe. Growing up her mom was busy a lot and was the primary breadwinner. Her dad really was the one who raised her. He was the one who took her and picked her up from school, who helped her with her homework and went to her shows, plays, games etc.
When she was 12 it turned out her mom had been having an affair and it led to her parents divorcing. This is where her mom's family's money comes in. They were able to afford very good lawyers and her money had already been locked up tight, so she wound up with custody and he left the marriage with not very much to his name and since he had spent so much time raising her, he had neglected his own career. He struggled after that. My wife has a ...fraught relationship with her mother. She never really forgave her mother for the affair the divorce and "her destroying his life" once she was a teenager she chose to move in with her dad.
So that's a bit of background, she remained close to her dad to this day. He's been an active part of our lives and he spends a lot of time with our kids (who both love him) but he's been struggling. Covid was really hard for him because he really couldn't work. He fell behind on his bills and he's been struggling to catch up ever since. He's now about to be evicted. My wife wants him to move in with us. She says its absolutely unacceptable to her for him to be homeless when we have a basement, we can move him into. Thing is. The basement is my space. Its set up to be my retreat and she now wants to turn it into a bedroom for him.
We've been arguing about this because she says she won't allow him to be homeless and my point is he won't be homeless. He has a place he can go with his sister, but she lives on the other side of the country. My wife hates that idea. She says she wants him to be a part of her and our kids lives and not on the other side of the country. He's not a bad guy, I don't hate him or anything I just want some space for our family. My wife's position is that he is family, and he can help with the kids. She's accusing me of caring more about my "Mancave" than the wellbeing of her father. That's an exaggeration he isn't going to be homeless he can move in with his sister. This argument is starting to become pretty ugly now and she's threatening to take the kids and move out to find a place with him if I wont agree to let him move in here. I resent that threat. I'm starting to wonder if this is really a hill I should die on. On the other hand I'm shocked and angry that my wife seems ready to throw away our whole marriage over this.
Update: I'm going to talk to my wife about getting him an in-law suite in our yard that he can stay in permanently and give up the basement until we can build it. The comments have helped me play out how the most likely scenarios would go.
Just so everyone knows whose side you're all taking here. She's a spoiled rotten princess who grew up with a silver spoon in her mouth. Everything she has was given to her. Between my salary and the trust fund her grandparents left her she doesn't need to work but she does anyways and complains she needs her dads help with the kids. I'm a Surgeon and she's an Interior Designer. Which one of us contributes more to humanity? She's a shallow vapid woman who decorates houses while I'm saving lives.
RELEVANT COMMENTS
Angel-4077

You are ready to throw away your marriage for protecting your mancave...she is protecting her Father.
Maybe you have sister in a different state you could live with instead if its no big deal.

~
NotTrynaMakeWaves

“I just want some space for my family”
This is a lie. You want the space FROM your family. You described it as a retreat.
She’s not endangering your marriage, you are, but you’re trying to spin this story to make it look like she’s being unreasonable when you’re simply upset to be losing your man cave.
Let him stay. Build a shed.

~
ComplexMurky

I mean it looks like your wife decided it’s her hill to die on so is it yours?
But from my perspective I have to be honest, I think you’re being a dick. Your shocked and angry that your wife would die on this hill to move her dad in, who really was the parent who raised her because the only other option is him moving across the country, but you’re dieing on the hill of having a man cave. Really makes you look selfish from my perspective

~
eleanorlikesvodka

Are you for real? Your position would be easier to understand if you had no room, but you do. Let me ask you something: does your wife have a space in your home that is exclusively hers? That she can retreat to in order to rest, or practice her hobbies? If the answer is no, why doesn't she? Why are you the only one who gets the luxury of having such a space? Why is your mancave —let's be honest, that's what it is— more important than housing the man who raised your wife? Why do you get to monopolize a whole basement that is solely for your benefit? This is a hill worth dying on: for her. Maybe this is the first step toward realizing she's married to a very selfish man.

OOP

": does your wife have a space in your home that is exclusively hers? That she can retreat to in order to rest, or practice her hobbies? If the answer is no, why doesn't she?"
No because my wife doesn't work on call in a high-pressure job as a surgeon like I do. She doesn't need a space to unwind after she loses a patient like i do.

My Husband is too busy and too important to care about our children and I'm sick of it Dec 31, 2023
Posted by /Angra-Momyu
My husband is a surgeon. And according to him he's the most important person in the world. A god among men who casually determines life or death and is far far too important to be bothered by the trivial concerns of us mere peons.
Concerns like maybe you should spend some time with your fucking kids. But oh no. You see he works so hard and has so much pressure that when he's home he has to be sequestered from the annoying sounds of our girls playing or you know being happy to see him.
My dad has picked up the slack. He's been the one that's changed their diapers, I drop them off at school and go to work, dad picks them up and stays with them till I get home. My dad was the one who taught them to ride a bike, my dad is the one who shows up to the plays and dance recitals, he's the one that helps with the homework, my dad is the one who dresses as Santa, my dad is the one who does the easter egg hunts, and the tea parties. My husband is far too important for any of that.
And despite the fact that my husband has absolutely no interest in our kids he is still pissed that the kids are closer to my dad than him. So my dad is now struggling financially. We have the means to help him. But my husband doesn't want to. He'd rather see my dad moved to the other side of the country and removed from our kids lives. I put my foot down and he goes on to reddit to whine about it.
Well now I'm here too dear. You want to whine about our marriage on reddit I can do it too!
UPDATE: WOW this all blew up. I was so angry when I posted this now I'm just drained. He came by yesterday to pick up some things and we argued. The girls were out with my dad because I knew this would be a fight and I didn't want them around for this. He said awful things. Just awful. About me, my dad and the girls. After he left, I talked to my mom. We have a difficult relationship but if there's one person I want in my corner going into the divorce its her. The divorce is happening. I saw an attorney my mom recommended today. I'm really really glad I went through with that prenup my mom wanted when we got married now. At this point I wont speak to my stbx husband. My lawyer is doing my talking for me. I'm exhausted. Thank you everyone for all the support. It helped to read the comments and no people supported me. He made me feel so small and stupid yesterday, and he said awful things about our girls. I'm not mad anymore. I'm just heartbroken. Our girls deserve better than this. I really wanted better for them. I just wanted to have a family and a nice home. Now I'm just going through a divorce like my parents. I never wanted this. I tried so hard to keep this all together so we didnt wind up here. But I failed.
~
OOP's wife made a comment on the husband's original post but was deleted, it was saved by u/Grand-Muffin409
Wife's comment preserved Jan 2, 2024
The Wife: u/Angra-Momyu
I'm done. This isnt about the mancave or the space and you know it. We have the money to help my dad, we have a 7 bedroom fucking house with a pool house and a movie theater. This isnt about space or money. This is about you being petty and jealous that the girls are closer to my dad than you.
Get this through your thick fucking head. THATS YOUR FAULT! For 9 years everything else in your life has been more important than the girls. You work 70 hours a week and when you're not at work you go golfing with the people you work with, or you're at a medical conference with the people you work with, or you're dragging me to some fundraiser with the people you work with. When you ARE at home you need to sequester yourself because "The sound of MY children playing annoys you" You seem to conveniently forget that they're your children to! You only seem to remember that part when I want to move my father in to help me with our girls. It's amazing how you can be so smart and so fucking stupid at the same time. You're upset the girls love dad more than you. And you're such a petty and small man that your solution is to ship him off out of their lives and break our girls hearts. But you dont plan to actually be a part of their lives. You just want my dad gone. I wont fucking let you take him out of their lives.
The family is me, the girls and my father. Your family are the people you work with, and your married to your job not me. Well you can have it. Don't come home. Stay at the hospital or go to your wh$*/e's house. (Yea I know about her) I don't fucking care anymore. I'm done. Im done trying to make this marriage work, Im done begging you to be a father. The girls won't miss you anyways. You've never shown an interest in their lives and I am done letting you hurt and neglect my children. They deserve someone in their lives that loves and cares for them and shows interest in them. You dont.
You want to drag this out onto reddit then fine. Lets do this on Reddit. I'm divorcing you. We're done. Go save the world, you're free.
By the way. You're worse than your parents. They may have been weird and misguided but they were a part of your life.
And now he wants to talk about this in private everyone. Now he has a problem with this being on reddit. You're the one who brought it here honey. Deal with the bed you made.>
RELEVANT COMMENTS FROM THE WIFE
On the if it was about the Mancave

It had nothing to do with the space. He was pissed off that the girls are closer to my dad than him. And hes such a petter small insecure man that he would rather break our girls hearts and take my dad from their lives than do anything. We have the space and the money. We have a fucking poolhouse we WILL be moving my dad into.
Hes not even really going to lose his mancave. This was never about his mancave.

&

There's no coming back from this. Hed rather break our girls hearts than be a part of their lives. he was complaining to me the other day that if my father was here then he would be playing with the girls when he was home. And the sound would annoy him. I just cant explain the rage I feel when I think about my husband, the father of my children being annoyed at the sound of his girls being happy.

On what her marriage is like

I'm not a stay-at-home parent. I also have a job. I'm also the only parent in this marriage. Everyone acts like I'm not working full time too. But I still manage to make time for the kids. I get the kids up and dressed for school. My dad picks them up and stays with them until I get home. Kids get out at 3 I'm home by 6. My dad is there to pick the kids up and stays till I get home. Husband has no parts in this.

"IMO His concern about the children preferring their grandparent over him indicate a genuine desire to connect with his kids."

Ive heard this before but nothing ever changes. He complains and then tells me he has to go out of state to some medical conference and "We'll talk about it later" and we never do. He just text messaged me now. "I have surgery we'll talk about this tonight"
Yea he always has surgery when we need to talk about this. Its like clockwork. It never fails.

On the future of her marriage

The mods locked that comment. Not sure why. And yes we are headed to divorce. I'll be sending the papers to the fucking hospital.

&

Dads moving in, he's moving out. We'll figure out the house in the divorce. I probably shouldn't say anything else at this point until I talk to an attorney.

NEW UPDATES

What am I supposed to tell my girls (10 and 7) about their father? March 12, 2024 (2 months later)
Posted by /Angra-Momyu
My Ex-husband was never a very present father. He's a surgeon and spent most of his time either working or doing something with his coworkers. He was rarely ever home and when he was he mostly wanted to be left alone to hang out by himself in his mancave. He didnt like the girls being loud or playful because it disturbed him. Our daughters have always walked on eggshells around them and hes never taken much of an interest in their lives.
So, we just finalized our divorce. he couldn't wait to be get out of the marriage. He wanted to be done with this marriage and our kids so he could take a new job in another state and live with his affair partner. I asked for full custody, and he was ...relieved... he didn't want custody, he didn't fight at all for them. He hasn't even seen them since the day he moved out 2 months ago. He's gone now in another state and my oldest had her 10th birthday about 2 weeks ago. I threw a really huge party for her. I made it a really big deal and he promised her he would be there. He never showed. We get a card with a lame apology and a gift card from him a day after her birthday.
I felt so bad for her, and what makes it worse is...she wasnt even upset. I asked her how she felt about it and she shrugged, she said she wasnt surprised, and that dad didnt really love them.
What the hell do I say to that? Im at a loss for words because...I dont believe he loves them either. Do I lie to them? Tell them of course he does hes just busy. What do I tell her? The truth? No he doesnt reall love you? I have no idea what to say to my girls. Should I even bring it up? Just not talk about it at all? Just leave the fact that their dad doesnt give a shit and has pretty much abandoned them? Just carry on as usual, because lets be honest, he hasnt been a part of our lives for a long long time. He never really was. Not that much has changed for the girls besides the fact that they dont ned to walk on eggshells for the one or two days a month he was even at home. I just I just dont know. Both the girls are in therapy now. We all are. Maybe this is something I should bring up there.
Update: My Husband is too busy and too important to care about our children and Im sick of it. March 12, 2024 (2 months later)
Posted by /Angra-Momyu
Hi everyone. I'm back.
My Husband is now my Ex-husband. Our state you only need 30 days between filing and judgement. We both agreed divorce was best. He moved out New years day and has never been back. My original post sorta went viral it was reshared on ticktok and on Facebook and our family and friends wound up seeing it. My lawyer recommended I stop posting about the divorce until it was finalized. Well the divorce is now done.
After he moved out we both retained our lawyers and most of the divorced was handled through them. We didn't speak much until we went into final arbitration and signed the agreements to bring to the judge. About a week after I retained my attorney, I had my attorney, his attorney and some movers meet at my house to inventory everything that belonged to him, including in his mancave, pack it up and ship it out to a storage unit his lawyer arranged. I didnt want to give him any reason to come after me for anything.
I know people wanted me to nail him to the wall, but I really didn't want a long and bitter divorce. He wanted to go, I wanted him gone and we both wanted it to happen as soon as possible. Turns out he was offered a job in another state, and he wanted to take and was itching to get out of here. We both had prenups that made the division of assets pretty painless, and he had no problem with giving me full custody and paying child support. I didn't need or ask for spousal support. Honestly how little he fought for our girls was the part that hurt me the most. The biggest disagreement we had was with the house. My mom stepped up to buy him out of the mortgage payments he put down so that me the girls and my dad wouldn't have to move. He really wanted this done as fast as he could so he could ride off into the sunset with his affair partner and take his new job. And that's exactly what he did. He got the ending he wanted. Free of me and the kids and free to be the world's best surgeon or whatever.
Mom and dad both came through for me in big big ways. Mom is a lawyer herself and she had set up the house and my other assets to be protected. She also was the one to get me my lawyer. Dad moved into the pool house and that's where he's going to stay. My dad is going to enjoy his golden years being pop pop to our girls and dad to me. I'll make sure he won't have to worry about anything.
My daughter's 10th birthday was 2 weeks ago. My husband promised her he would fly out for it. I made this party a really big deal. I hired performers, rented a bouncy castle, had all her classmates over, most of my family was there. My mom and dad were able to be in the same place and not fight. We had a really great time. And he never showed up. She got a card from him the day after her party with a lame apology and a $500 gift card. I asked her if she was ok and she shrugged. She had a great time at her party and didn't expect her dad to show. She knows he doesn't love her. Thats what she told me. She wasn't really upset about it either. Shes 10 years old and already expects him to disappoint her. It breaks my heart. But she's a trooper and she didn't let it stop her from enjoying her day.
I realize that for years, Ive been trying to make a home for him to come home too but he's had one foot out the door and I've been holding his hand trying to keep him from going. I finally let go. I'm doing better than I thought I would to be honest. And the girls are too. I don't really miss him. The girls dont really miss him. Im not even angry about the affair. She can have him. I'm just disappointed.
​
THIS IS A REPOST SUB - I AM NOT THE OOP

I am not the OOP.
The OOP is u/throwra-fil posting in relationship_advice
and u/Angra-Momyu posting in TrueOffMyChest and parenting
Now Concluded as per OOP
2 updates + 1 mini update + 1 comment from wife- Long
Husband - 30th December 2023
Wife - 31st December 2023
Wife's comment on Husband's post - 31st December 2023 (this is preserved in another comment as it was deleted)
Wife's Post edited with a new update - 2nd January
​
**2 New Updates*\*
Thanks to u/DisneyBuckeye and u/Separate_Kick3182 for finding the new updates
​
Final Update 1 -12th March 2024
Final Update Side Post- 12th March 2024
​
Wife (37f) and I (40m) are arguing about her father (65m) moving in with us. What should do?
There's a lot of background here so Ill try and keep it to what's relevant. Married 10 years, dated 3 before that we have 2 kids. Her parents are divorced. Her mom comes from a wealthy family and when her parents got married her family did a lot of legal and financial stuff and prenups and stuff to keep the money safe.
Growing up her mom was busy a lot and was the primary breadwinner. Her dad really was the one who raised her. He was the one who took her and picked her up from school, who helped her with her homework and went to her shows, plays, games etc.
When she was 12 it turned out her mom had been having an affair and it led to her parents divorcing. This is where her mom's family's money comes in. They were able to afford very good lawyers and her money had already been locked up tight, so she wound up with custody and he left the marriage with not very much to his name and since he had spent so much time raising her, he had neglected his own career.
He struggled after that. My wife has a ...fraught relationship with her mother. She never really forgave her mother for the affair the divorce and "her destroying his life" once she was a teenager she chose to move in with her dad.
So that's a bit of background, she remained close to her dad to this day. He's been an active part of our lives and he spends a lot of time with our kids (who both love him) but he's been struggling. Covid was really hard for him because he really couldn't work.
He fell behind on his bills and he's been struggling to catch up ever since. He's now about to be evicted. My wife wants him to move in with us. She says its absolutely unacceptable to her for him to be homeless when we have a basement, we can move him into. Thing is. The basement is my space. Its set up to be my retreat and she now wants to turn it into a bedroom for him.
We've been arguing about this because she says she won't allow him to be homeless and my point is he won't be homeless. He has a place he can go with his sister, but she lives on the other side of the country. My wife hates that idea. She says she wants him to be a part of her and our kids lives and not on the other side of the country.
He's not a bad guy, I don't hate him or anything I just want some space for our family. My wife's position is that he is family, and he can help with the kids. She's accusing me of caring more about my "Mancave" than the wellbeing of her father. That's an exaggeration he isn't going to be homeless he can move in with his sister.
This argument is starting to become pretty ugly now and she's threatening to take the kids and move out to find a place with him if I wont agree to let him move in here. I resent that threat. I'm starting to wonder if this is really a hill I should die on. On the other hand I'm shocked and angry that my wife seems ready to throw away our whole marriage over this.
​
Comments
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Garden_gnome1609
You do care more about your mancave than both your wife and your FIL. Get another TV. You can hang out in your bedroom. Jesus dude. Your solution involves your wife never seeing her father and your kids growing up without him so you can go sit in your basement occasionally. Holy shit.
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xparapluiex
Are you kidding me?
First of all, before we touch on the FIL part, where is wife’s basement sized relaxation space? Does she have one?
Second: he is a staple in your children’s’ lives. You’re willing to make that disappear? Because if he is on the other side of the country he’s not going to be with them. You’d be robbing your children of the time left with him.
Third: you’d be robbing your wife of the time remaining with him.
I’m so mad at you and I don’t even know you!
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eleanorlikesvodka
Are you for real? Your position would be easier to understand if you had no room, but you do. Let me ask you something: does your wife have a space in your home that is exclusively hers? That she can retreat to in order to rest, or practice her hobbies? If the answer is no, why doesn't she? Why are you the only one who gets the luxury of having such a space? Why is your mancave —let's be honest, that's what it is— more important than housing the man who raised your wife? Why do you get to monopolize a whole basement that is solely for your benefit? This is a hill worth dying on: for her. Maybe this is the first step toward realizing she's married to a very selfish man.

Husband: No because my wife doesn't work on call in a high-pressure job as a surgeon like I do. She doesn't need a space to unwind after she loses a patient like i do.

​
Pretty_Green_Feather
As a surgeon, married to a surgeon, you suck. Get off your high horse and realise you’re not nearly as important as you think you are.
​
throwaway13123331
Super simple, if you have a loving relationship with your own parents imagine if it was your dad on the verge of becoming homeless…
If you don’t, then it will be hard for you to understand and you might end up in a divorce. I assume your wife will learn from her own mom and she will end up with house, kids and her dad in the basement. Expect similar conversation in 20 years between your kids and their partners where you will end up…

Husband: I haven't spoken to or seen my dad in 22 years. I could not care less if he was homeless, and I wouldn't piss on him if he was on fire. For all I know he could be homeless now and I'd just laugh and tell him he deserved it. I don't plan to see my father again until he's in his coffin. And I'll only go to his funeral and deliver a eulogy to remind everyone what a garbage person he is.

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ckm22055
She watched her mother strip her father of everything, even her, and she was powerless to help. Today, she has the chance to help because it is within her power. This is important to her for this reason alone with the other reasons you admitted to. She doesn't have to sit back and watch him suffer today.
This is the reason she will leave you because you are robbing her of the opportunity to help her father today. Do not think for one minute that she will not divorce you because she will! You are losing the following:

• Your wife
• Your children
• Your home
• Your happiness
• Money for the child support and alimony

So, that room is more important than all of these things, then by all means, say no. Not only will you lose these treasures, but oh yeah, you will lose the space anyway bc you won't be in the house, but he will.
​
Mini Update from Husband
Update: I'm going to talk to my wife about getting him an in-law suite in our yard that he can stay in permanently and give up the basement until we can build it. The comments have helped me play out how the most likely scenarios would go.
Just so everyone knows whose side you're all taking here. She's a spoiled rotten princess who grew up with a silver spoon in her mouth. Everything she has was given to her. Between my salary and the trust fund her grandparents left her she doesn't need to work but she does anyways and complains she needs her dads help with the kids.
I'm a Surgeon and she's an Interior Designer. Which one of us contributes more to humanity? She's a shallow vapid woman who decorates houses while I'm saving lives.
​
Comments
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[deleted]
Why would you say such terrible things about your wife in public like this? All because people are reddit are pointing out that you're in the wrong in this situation and could choose to behave better?? If you actually respected your wife, you wouldn't be this comfortable putting her down publicly when you know she's going to read it.
Your disdainful words about her gives off the impression that you don't want to reconcile or compromise with your wife, but that your priority was just to receive validation of being right, so that you could continue neglecting your kids without improving.
​
**Wife Posts Her Side of the Story*\*
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My Husband is too busy and too important to care about our children and I'm sick of it - posted 1 day later
​
My husband is a surgeon. And according to him he's the most important person in the world. A god among men who casually determines life or death and is far far too important to be bothered by the trivial concerns of us mere peons.
Concerns like maybe you should spend some time with your fucking kids. But oh no. You see he works so hard and has so much pressure that when he's home he has to be sequestered from the annoying sounds of our girls playing or you know being happy to see him.
My dad has picked up the slack. He's been the one that's changed their diapers, I drop them off at school and go to work, dad picks them up and stays with them till I get home.
My dad was the one who taught them to ride a bike, my dad is the one who shows up to the plays and dance recitals, he's the one that helps with the homework, my dad is the one who dresses as Santa, my dad is the one who does the easter egg hunts, and the tea parties. My husband is far too important for any of that.
And despite the fact that my husband has absolutely no interest in our kids he is still pissed that the kids are closer to my dad than him. So my dad is now struggling financially.
We have the means to help him. But my husband doesn't want to. He'd rather see my dad moved to the other side of the country and removed from our kids lives. I put my foot down and he goes on to reddit to whine about it.
Well now I'm here too dear. You want to whine about our marriage on reddit I can do it too!
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Comments
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BladeOfGrassDewDrop
Your dad’s a great dad and grampa. Your kids will know that.

Wife: The kids love him. He's been a daily fixture in their lives since they were born. They know him better than they know their father.I'm not a stay-at-home parent. I also have a job. I'm also the only parent in this marriage. Everyone acts like I'm not working full time too. But I still manage to make time for the kids. I get the kids up and dressed for school. My dad picks them up and stays with them until I get home. Kids get out at 3 I'm home by 6. My dad is there to pick the kids up and stays till I get home. Husband has no parts in this.

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Sad-Significance8045
IMO His concern about the children preferring their grandparent over him indicate a genuine desire to connect with his kids.

Wife: Ive heard this before but nothing ever changes. He complains and then tells me he has to go out of state to some medical conference and "We'll talk about it later" and we never do. He just text messaged me now. "I have surgery we'll talk about this tonight"Yea he always has surgery when we need to talk about this. Its like clockwork. It never fails.

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AbstractLifeForm
I don't see you complaining about the lifestyle he's afforded you.

Wife: Everyone keeps acting like its all his money. Well it isn't. I work too, and my family helped us with the house and his medical school debt.

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overtly-Grrl
Your family helped with HIS debt and he’s not willing to even budge. Wtf
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Wife's comment on husband's post (now deleted)
I'm done. This isn't about the mancave or the space and you know it. We have the money to help my dad, we have a 7 bedroom fucking house with a pool house and a movie theater. This isn't about space or money. This is about you being petty and jealous that the girls are closer to my dad than you.
Get this through your thick fucking head. THATS YOUR FAULT! For 9 years everything else in your life has been more important than the girls. You work 70 hours a week and when you're not at work you go golfing with the people you work with, or you're at a medical conference with the people you work with, or you're dragging me to some fundraiser with the people you work with.
When you ARE at home you need to sequester yourself because "The sound of MY children playing annoys you" You seem to conveniently forget that they're your children to! You only seem to remember that part when I want to move my father in to help me with our girls.
It's amazing how you can be so smart and so fucking stupid at the same time. You're upset the girls love dad more than you.
And you're such a petty and small man that your solution is to ship him off out of their lives and break our girls hearts. But you don't plan to actually be a part of their lives. You just want my dad gone. I wont fucking let you take him out of their lives.
The family is me, the girls and my father. Your family are the people you work with, and your married to your job not me. Well you can have it. Don't come home.
Stay at the hospital or go to your whore's house. (Yea I know about her) I don't fucking care anymore. I'm done.
I'm done trying to make this marriage work, I'm done begging you to be a father. The girls won't miss you anyways. You've never shown an interest in their lives and I am done letting you hurt and neglect my children. They deserve someone in their lives that loves and cares for them and shows interest in them. You don't.
You want to drag this out onto reddit then fine. Lets do this on Reddit. I'm divorcing you. We're done. Go save the world, you're free.
By the way. You're worse than your parents. They may have been weird and misguided but they were a part of your life.
And now he wants to talk about this in private everyone. Now he has a problem with this being on reddit. You're the one who brought it here honey. Deal with the bed you made.
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Latest Comments from Husband Post
CorrectSherbet5
Still on her side. I wouldn't let you near me with a bandaid, let alone a scalpel. You're lack of empathy and patience makes me scared for anyone you operate on.
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Infusion-delusion
I know that last comment was a parting shot as she served you divorce papers. Go stay with your girlfriend and leave your poor stbx wife in peace. The kids never see you so I'd doubt they'd even be able to pick you out from a line up.
All because you refuse to spare one bedroom in a 7 bedroom house and estate, for your free babysitter. Face it, you're not cut out to be a husband or a family man. Stick to your side pieces at work, you see them far more often.
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MyLadySansa
Wait - you have a mistress?? WTFFFF
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gretta_smith93
DUDE he’s cheating on her too? So he has time for a mistress but not his daughters?
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Comment from the wife

Wife: The mods locked that comment. Not sure why. And yes we are headed to divorce. I'll be sending the papers to the fucking hospital.

wigwam422
As you should. I read his post and he’s a monster
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SteakNotCake
Make sure to get a shark of a lawyer. Get yourself half of his retirement, house, money, child support, and alimony. Hit him where it hurts, his money.

Wife: my mother has the number to a good one.

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Fit-Humor-5022
Your husband said that you and your mother have a fraught relationship and you blame her for ruining your dads life
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sheera_greywolf
Exactly. Because OP's mum had a good lawyer.

Wife: Dads moving in, he's moving out. We'll figure out the house in the divorce. I probably shouldn't say anything else at this point until I talk to an attorney.
I know why he married me. He made it painfully clear to me yesterday.

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**New Update Starts Here*\*
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Update from the wife 2 days later
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UPDATE: WOW this all blew up. I was so angry when I posted this now I'm just drained. He came by yesterday to pick up some things and we argued. The girls were out with my dad because I knew this would be a fight and I didn't want them around for this.
He said awful things. Just awful. About me, my dad and the girls. After he left, I talked to my mom. We have a difficult relationship but if there's one person I want in my corner going into the divorce its her. The divorce is happening. I saw an attorney my mom recommended today. I'm really really glad I went through with that prenup my mom wanted when we got married now.
At this point I wont speak to my stbx husband. My lawyer is doing my talking for me. I'm exhausted. Thank you everyone for all the support. It helped to read the comments and no people supported me. He made me feel so small and stupid yesterday, and he said awful things about our girls.
I'm not mad anymore. I'm just heartbroken. Our girls deserve better than this. I really wanted better for them. I just wanted to have a family and a nice home. Now I'm just going through a divorce like my parents. I never wanted this. I tried so hard to keep this all together so we didnt wind up here. But I failed.
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Comments
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OOP: When I met him he was in medical school and working as a paramedic. He moved into my apartment and I covered the expenses so he could quit working and focus on medical school full time. He didn't have a problem with me being an interior designer then, and he didn't resent my trust fund when it was paying for our apartment.

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Wubbalubbalucky
What was his self-admitted reason for marrying you?

OOP: $$$$$$$$$$$$$

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mc4as
Why not pay dads outstanding rent?

OOP: you have to understand that this was not about space or money like he claimed. His goal was to get my father out of our lives. My dad leaving our lives was the solution he wanted. Any solution that kept him in our lives he had a problem with.
He wasn't like this when we met. And in defense of my mom, for as difficult as things have been with us over the years I don't question that she loves me. We've had our differences and our fights, but when I need her she comes through like she is now and like she did with the wedding, and god bless her for her foresight in having the prenup made.What she did to my dad will never sit right with me but she's in my corner and right now I'm glad to have both my parents in my corner.
I don't want the girls living with someone they are afraid of. It was only tolerable because of how little he was around.

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DutchPerson5
I understand the feelings of failure when getting a divorce. It's how society and culture has set us up. I always said: I never considered divorce, contemplated murder though... So sometimes failure is good. I felt I failed getting a divorce, but I felt being free from other societies demands also.
You picked this man, you believed his promises, he didn't deliver on being a good dad and husband. He failed his children, you his wife, himself and any test of being a decent humain being by badmouthing his children.
You failed? Maybe, but without this marriage you wouldn't have these children. That's more than a silver lining. Somewhere in the future there might be another better suited SO. My mother, a widower waited until my sister and I left for uni.

OOP: I don't think my failure was in having my kids with him. It was in keeping this marriage together and giving him a home and family he actually wanted to come back to.

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**New Updates*\*
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Update: My Husband is too busy and too important to care about our children and Im sick of it. - 2 months later
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Hi everyone. I'm back.
My Husband is now my Ex-husband. Our state you only need 30 days between filing and judgement. We both agreed divorce was best. He moved out New years day and has never been back. My original post sorta went viral it was reshared on TikTok and on Facebook and our family and friends wound up seeing it. My lawyer recommended I stop posting about the divorce until it was finalized. Well the divorce is now done.
After he moved out we both retained our lawyers and most of the divorced was handled through them. We didn't speak much until we went into final arbitration and signed the agreements to bring to the judge. About a week after I retained my attorney, I had my attorney, his attorney and some movers meet at my house to inventory everything that belonged to him, including in his mancave, pack it up and ship it out to a storage unit his lawyer arranged. I didn't want to give him any reason to come after me for anything.
I know people wanted me to nail him to the wall, but I really didn't want a long and bitter divorce. He wanted to go, I wanted him gone and we both wanted it to happen as soon as possible. Turns out he was offered a job in another state, and he wanted to take and was itching to get out of here. We both had prenups that made the division of assets pretty painless, and he had no problem with giving me full custody and paying child support. I didn't need or ask for spousal support. Honestly how little he fought for our girls was the part that hurt me the most. The biggest disagreement we had was with the house. My mom stepped up to buy him out of the mortgage payments he put down so that me the girls and my dad wouldn't have to move. He really wanted this done as fast as he could so he could ride off into the sunset with his affair partner and take his new job. And that's exactly what he did. He got the ending he wanted. Free of me and the kids and free to be the world's best surgeon or whatever.
Mom and dad both came through for me in big big ways. Mom is a lawyer herself and she had set up the house and my other assets to be protected. She also was the one to get me my lawyer. Dad moved into the pool house and that's where he's going to stay. My dad is going to enjoy his golden years being pop pop to our girls and dad to me. I'll make sure he won't have to worry about anything.
My daughter's 10th birthday was 2 weeks ago. My husband promised her he would fly out for it. I made this party a really big deal. I hired performers, rented a bouncy castle, had all her classmates over, most of my family was there. My mom and dad were able to be in the same place and not fight. We had a really great time. And he never showed up. She got a card from him the day after her party with a lame apology and a $500 gift card. I asked her if she was ok and she shrugged. She had a great time at her party and didn't expect her dad to show. She knows he doesn't love her. That's what she told me. She wasn't really upset about it either. She's 10 years old and already expects him to disappoint her. It breaks my heart. But she's a trooper and she didn't let it stop her from enjoying her day.
I realize that for years, I've been trying to make a home for him to come home too but he's had one foot out the door and I've been holding his hand trying to keep him from going. I finally let go. I'm doing better than I thought I would to be honest. And the girls are too. I don't really miss him. The girls don't really miss him. I'm not even angry about the affair. She can have him. I'm just disappointed.
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Comments
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DatelineDeli

The “shallow vapid woman who decorates houses while he’s saving lives” right?

The woman who doesn’t need to work but DOES so you have income and purpose, right? Fuck that guy. With any luck he’ll get slapped with a malpractice suit so he can really taste his own medicine. Insulin for the non-diabetic, I say.

OOP: He could just never wrap his head around that. That I wanted to work, that I like my career, that I have relationships with clients and contractors and vendors and an office staff. It was a constant argument with us. There were multiple stressors that broke our marriage this was a big one. His steady insistence I quit my job close up my business and stay at home. But...I'm also a lazy, entitled, spoiled rotten, princess... so who the fuck knows.

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DatelineDeli
It’ll never make sense because it’s nonsensical. I’m so happy for you and your daughters and father. You deserve good things. You’re so fortunate to have them. I hope things improve with your mom - I had a rough patch with mine, too, and it was the worst. The money stuff is another layer a lot of folks don’t understand…

OOP: Things with my mom are getting better. And amazingly things between my mom and dad are getting better as well. They both showed up for my daughters tenth and didn't fight or make catty remarks to each other or side eye each other, or glare or any of it.
I said it in another comment but ironically my marriage dissolving has done more to heal the rest of my family than anything else has.

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What am I supposed to tell my girls (10 and 7) about their father? (Same day)
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My Ex-husband was never a very present father. He's a surgeon and spent most of his time either working or doing something with his coworkers. He was rarely ever home and when he was he mostly wanted to be left alone to hang out by himself in his mancave. He didn't like the girls being loud or playful because it disturbed him. Our daughters have always walked on eggshells around them and hes never taken much of an interest in their lives.
So, we just finalized our divorce. he couldn't wait to be get out of the marriage. He wanted to be done with this marriage and our kids so he could take a new job in another state and live with his affair partner. I asked for full custody, and he was ...relieved... he didn't want custody, he didn't fight at all for them. He hasn't even seen them since the day he moved out 2 months ago. He's gone now in another state and my oldest had her 10th birthday about 2 weeks ago. I threw a really huge party for her. I made it a really big deal and he promised her he would be there. He never showed. We get a card with a lame apology and a gift card from him a day after her birthday.
I felt so bad for her, and what makes it worse is...she wasnt even upset. I asked her how she felt about it and she shrugged, she said she wasnt surprised, and that dad didnt really love them.
What the hell do I say to that? Im at a loss for words because...I dont believe he loves them either. Do I lie to them? Tell them of course he does hes just busy. What do I tell her? The truth? No he doesnt reall love you? I have no idea what to say to my girls. Should I even bring it up? Just not talk about it at all? Just leave the fact that their dad doesnt give a shit and has pretty much abandoned them? Just carry on as usual, because lets be honest, he hasnt been a part of our lives for a long long time. He never really was. Not that much has changed for the girls besides the fact that they dont ned to walk on eggshells for the one or two days a month he was even at home. I just I just dont know. Both the girls are in therapy now. We all are. Maybe this is something I should bring up there.
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Comments
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DbleDelight
I would tell them some people don't have the capacity to be there for other people in ways that count but this is a reflection of their short comings and in no way a response to themselves. Sometimes we need to accept that we can't have a relationship with people because it isn't healthy or safe.
Continue to be their safe space and move towards healing. There will be grief that presents at different times and it's important to acknowledge and allow them to express this.
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I am not the OOP. Please do not harass either OOP.

I wrote this topic at the main social anxiety forum (here at reddit) - before I was banned there in 2022 - and surprisingly this particular subject topic was accepted very well. Since I go against CBT and speak controversial/orthodox topics related to social anxiety, my topics were often enough scrutinized a lot by other commentators, yet for some unknown reason this controversial topic that I expected a huge backlash- was surprisingly welcomed by everyone.
First of all - my own attitude towards drugs is extremely negative. I am strong critic of DSM and CBT who use drugs to "heal" social anxiety. I see this as harmful and exploitative and as a money laundering, corruptive. Almost all my social anxiety related comments on You tube include pharma mafia criticism. I hate drugs in general. The only pill I take is Aspirin. When therapists ordered me pills for social anxiety in 1998 and 1999 - I hated it, I could not stand it. One side-effect was fast heart beat rate and feeling as if I am about to fall, trembling all over the body - that was "fixed" with another drug. I hate addictions related to drugs- I do not hate drug addicts, I hate criminals who make money on it and trauma that propels traumatized people to seek refuge in fantasy - that is what I hate. When I see cocaine abuse - in fiction or in reality I want to puke, I feel disgust towards it. Marijuana never had any effect on me. I also hate coffee and cigarettes and alcohol, too.
With that being said-
in the summer of 2020 I accidently drugged myself.
In late June there is a flower that I liked and I picked few flowers for kitchen desk for aesthetic reasons. I don't want to name the flower sort so that I do not encourage anyone into trying it carelessly. Well - I never noticed that this particular flower had a small black round seed that pops up and fly in all direction at any small motion of the desk. I never noticed that these small seeds fell into my soda drink and toast while I was preparing breakfast because they were dark and really small. Later on - I googled the flower and it turns out that its' seeds produce the same effect as LSD. For two weeks I was walking around high - without being aware that I am drugged, that I accidently was drugging myself with LSD - from my own garden. BTW - since that summer, I would not encourage putting any flowers in kitchen, especially not at kitchen table where food is prepared/consumed.
The symptoms that I felt (without knowing that it was caused by the seed from flower) were similar to schizofrenia and heart attack. My heart rate was beating really fast almost all through the day. Especially at night. I could not fall asleep at all - the second I was about to fall asleep I felt as if I am about to fall but I was fully aware of falling into some abyss that the fear kept me awake and stuck in limbo state between dream and being awakened. During night I felt electric shocks occasionally, spasms - as if someone was electrocuting me. Those were physical symptoms. Mental symptoms were profoundly changing for me and my social anxiety. I felt for the first time self-esteem. I felt secure in the world. I felt safe - as if I am in Truman Show where the world revolves only for the purpose of my life - other people were no longer abusers but play actors who follow the script given to them by the producers above. Abusers and traumatic events did not scare me anymore - they did not effect me because I saw myself superior and above it, as if I have ability to fly away from it all. I felt as if I am god and that all people around me were children who were confused and lost, hence pathetic and harmless. I no longer noticed small gestures in other people, their nervousness did not bother me anymore. I felt pity for them for being angry and hostile and intrusive, as if I am grown adult and they are spoiled small 3 years old brat that can only only have ability to pee in their pants. This state was unknown to me - because since I was 13 I seen other people as superior and scary and that I must be afraid of others, especially if they were angry and hostile and intrusive for whatever reason. Since now I have this experience - I can recreate it and copy paste it today. This is what we lack with social anxiety- we never have experience of self esteem - so we cannot construct it with the tools given to us during ACE and ACoA. We can read about it, we can see it in the movies - but we don't really know it deep inside us, we have no idea how it really works under the hood. Due to this lack of knowledge, which is external to us (as Kant discovered this 300 years ago) - we are unable to truly know the alternative reality and unknown reality to us. All we know is trauma that is replayed in our mind without us being aware that we have triggers and flashbacks all the time and that we are stuck in hyper-vigilance state.
Another experience was that I was somehow able to see how Communication works. I could observe it as if in 3D. I could rotate the Communication between two people, I could zoom in. Nikola Tesla also reported this 3D ability in his innovations and discoveries and ideas - he also talked about his ability to see idea in 3D and to rotate it and to zoom it in and study it. I saw communication as encoder-decoder system - where in contact with another person - messages go through the mouth or behavior - and we interpret these signals - however due to decoder these messages might end up distorted and garbled up. Our decoder my by dysfunctional or the other person's might have faulty system of expressing their ideas which they base on bias, not reality - and then the message is also scrambled, too. I made video about this idea that I could suddenly see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8T2y8Aopaw
I like this quote that I read later on:
information enters us, is processed and is then projected outward once more, now in an altered form. We are not aware that we are doing this, that in fact this is all we are doing. Valis (1978) Philip K. Dick
We are all mediators, translators. Jacques Derrida (1983)
This ability to crystalize communication mechanisms helped me later on to investigate trauma and abuse - and how communication is muddled with psychopaths and narcissists and covert and successful toxic people who deliberately mess up communication in order to control and take advantage of other people. And then we end up with social anxiety - because we know on deep level that something is wrong with people who appear friendly, nice or calm on the surface - but in reality they lie and cover up the truth with pathological lying unknown to us.
My brain started to receive all the data from the space, I was imagining data surging into my mind, flowing in like in Matrix with green digital letters pouring inside me. I picked up my 20-year of collected books of psychology and philosophy and history and ideas - and I absorbed in the following months.
I suddenly felt as if I had a invisible veil over my face and now it was starting to slip off, I really sensed as if a cloth is falling from my face and I even at one moment try to grab it, it felt real, as if the real veil is slipping off.
Behind a veil, unseen yet present, I was the forceful soul that moves this mighty body. Jean Racine
He literally took that veil that was covering his own thinking, and allowed the goodness of God to get to him. Victoria Osteen https://youtube.com/watch?v=FzMg-aUZkEg
When we put very thick veil & persona, and people fall in love with that fake thing we have, there is hidden part of us that remains unseen but feels unknown, lonely and unworthy. If you go through hardship, don't hide it. HOUR OF POWER https://youtu.be/LzJW2sNQBV8
Below the veil of unconsciousness, this hole within us has created a magnet type of energy. And we are attracting into our experiences people that mirror the energy of people who wounded us in the first place. Lisa Romano
You can care about other people without caring what they think. How they see you, perceive, view you - it's got nothing to do with you, it's none of your business. We walk around with filter. None of us see reality - we just see what we want to see DAN LOK https://youtube.com/watch?v=K6ip508PfzM
Filter in your head is so high that nothing breaks through that as being worthy of being said. Lower that filter what would be acceptable to say to someone. Adverse problem is blabber on and on. YT Chris Williamson https://youtube.com/watch?v=qDz4bY21k_o
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I started to be active on Twitter - where previously I would tweet perhaps one tweet per month, now I wrote all day. I entered into discussions which previously I would not feel comfortable with due to criticism. I learned to use mute and block button which my people pleasing and fawning toxic shame prohibited me before - I was afraid that other person will hate me, back stab me in some unknown way and talk gossip behind my back - even if they were strangers - so I never allowed myself to mute or block anyone even when they were trolling, mocking or abusive to me. With time I started to do this in real life - by allowing myself to be angry at annoying people - something I prohibited myself to do due to fear of punishment and attack and backstabbing.
I also developed severe paranoia and magical thinking - which were suppressed inside me - now they were on surface. Later on I read that social anxiety is in the same Cluster as paranoid disorder - so this part of me that I successfully suppressed due to CBT and DSM - I had no idea that it was inside me. This paranoia is natural by-product of ACE and ACoA because we stop trusting other people and we expect the danger and attack from unknown directions - as we were traumatized as kids.
I believed that the comet (which were on increase in 2020) were about to crash on Earth and that I must delete all my You tube accounts and Twitter tweets - because I believed that I am contributing to this doom coming imminently ahead. I felt as if my mind is soaking up all the Earth and that the Universe will collapse in 2060s when I will die, too. That I save all the Earth with my mind until then and all people are inside my mind - projection that my mind harbors now. In the same week - there was a news that scientist discovered a mirror universe (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_tkP2wTTrg) - and I believed that somehow now I have ability to transport myself in the reverse universe where I do not suffer from social anxiety and hence I can find cure for it and carry it with myself into my reality. I believed that my words can somehow modulate and create reality - so I must be careful what I speak and write and how I organize my life, where I place things in my ambient (Feng Shui) - that is is copy pasted into reality - if I live in mess I will have disorganized mind and chaos in external reality. Later on I discovered that Philip K. Dick has quite similar experiences and beliefs himself in 1970s.
It was a once-in-a-lifetime satori. Moksa, it is called in India; a sudden flash of absolute comprehension, out of nowhere. What James Joyce means by 'epiphanies,' Total insight into world." The Transmigration of Timothy Archer (1982), Philip K. Dick
the universe is irrational; the mind governing it is irrational; but above them lies another God, the true God, and he is not irrational Valis (1978) Philip K. Dick
Apollonius of Tyana, writing as Hermes Trismegistos, said, "That which is above is that which is below." By this he meant to tell us that our universe is a hologram, but he lacked the term. VALIS (1978) Philip K. Dick
That which was below, his own brain, the microcosm, had become the macrocosm, and, inside him as microcosm now, he contained the macrocosm, which is to say, what is above. The Divine Invasion (1981), Philip K. Dick
We all sleep but do not know it. We live in a dream; we walk and move and have our lives in a dream; most of all we speak in a dream; our speech is the speech of dreamers, and unreal. The Transmigration of Timothy Archer (1982), Philip K. Dick
I also became preoccupied with Anunnaki and that helped me discover Zoroastrianism later on - which shaped my beliefs about general philosophical existence - that we are in some kind of training center here on Earth, that our training is that we learn about evil and how evil is perplexed with the good, like snake around the tree - and that our goal is to learn and discover evil in order to help ourselves to choose healthier choices and decisions in life - that are not based and influenced on evil. And that evil and good are one of the same, like Yin Yang - divided but made whole - where we need challenges in order to grow - and where being inert is evil as much as being overly active.
Ahura Mazda created Gayomart, the first man. Ahura Mazda set a limit to time, trapping Ahriman (Angra Mainyu) inside creation. Ahriman then tried to leave creation, but he could not. So he has remained, doing evil until the end of time. DK MYTHS AND LEGENDS EXPLAINED Neil Philip
In the beginning, the universe was contained within an egg, inside of which the vital forces of yin (dark, female, and cool) and yang (light, male, and hot) interacted with each other. Inside the egg, when Pan Gu awoke, he stretched and broke the egg DK MYTHS AND LEGENDS N.Philip
The Universe is an intelligence test. TIMOTHY LEARY
Two weeks later on, as a I said, I noticed that the flowers were the actual cause of unknown and mysterious symptoms - and I threw them out - and then symptoms vanished in 48 hours on their own. I needed one week to regain back to myself - each night sleep was felt as healing. Who knows how many people are diagnosed as schizophrenic, delusional paranoid lunatics - and perhaps they are inadvertently, unbeknown to them, take some natural products that are causing their symptoms?
Overall - my mind was completely turned around and I was able to express myself now (instead of self censoring myself) after this experience.
The ability to write these texts on reddit, to overcome my paranoid fears of founding my own forum on reddit - I owe it all to accidental drugging.
The conclusion is that psychedelics can help with social anxiety -especially if someone is stuck with it for more than 10 years. I would not encourage free usage - but that it is done in controlled manner and with doctors supervision. Luckily enough I was jogging since 2012 - so my heart could bear the pressure. I guess someone who was not physically in good shape - might be in danger of heart attack and death if he was in my place when these physical symptoms of LSD happened.
Efficacy and Safety of Psychedelics in Treating Anxiety Disorders https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10741816/ For patients with anxiety resistant to standard therapy, psychedelics may be a promising alternative. Results: The reviewed studies demonstrated encouraging efficacy in reducing anxiety symptoms, increasing self-perception, and increasing social function in patients with generalized anxiety disorder, social anxiety disorder, or anxiety attributable to another medical condition while establishing feasibility and evidence of safety. For many patients, the therapeutic effects of the psychedelic treatment lasted weeks, and no severe adverse events were reported.
Conclusion: Based on the evidence of symptom reduction and safety, the current literature (2011 to 2021) shows that psychedelics could be considered for treating clinician-diagnosed anxiety disorders. Psychedelics may provide an alternative therapeutic option for patients resistant to current standard treatments.
I agree with this scientific findings. It is funny and ironic how my own high and moral standards - supposedly protecting me from social anxiety trauma were keeping me in the prison of social anxiety trauma. I would not take drugs - because it is bad and in the same time - I was cut off from the help and push in the back that I needed from experiencing psychedelics. This is what happens with herd mentality popular groupthink right-wing movements and cults and fanatics and fascists - they have high moral and ethical standards and then attack and destroy anything that is not aligned with their own high standards - and this inability to hear the other side is keeping them being terrorist and abusers and mentally ill psychopaths and criminally insane. Similar to IFS model explanation - where we censor and push down thoughts, opinions and beliefs that appear as panic or fear (Exiles) - we exile them into Siberian far away camp, locked cellar - and then due to Survivorship bias - we are unaware of true problem, but instead we end up pathologizing normal and healthy aspects of ourselves through our inner Managers and Protectors: seeing neutral people as dangerous and seeing our natural normal emotions of fear and panic as disgusting and shameful.
The psychedelic movement of the 1960s was heavily influenced by Leary's call to create a better, more satisfying society by exploring the unconscious to uncover our true emotions and needs. Timothy Leary (1920-1996) THE PSYCHOLOGY BOOK
To use your head, you have to go out of your mind. Timothy Leary

As I’m new to listening to power metal covers are a good way of finding new bands/songs etc. This was one of those that creates a craving for knowing more. Will find some Angra to see if it is something to add to the growing playlist.
I really enjoyed Tommy’s version. What do you think of it?
https://youtu.be/sSYriaZwqgA?si=rGgAjxiOHkHM8jRR
This subreddit is a gold mine for finding stuff to listen to so thanks.

As one who watched the English version before the subbed version, I can safely say that the original can't be beat. Like objectively speaking, they’re zero contest. Subbed wins hands down.
And yet, I find the dub interesting in how they abridge the story and do it... not too shabby. Of course, I say this knowing how they dropped the ball big time. Hear me out for a minute and put down your pitch forks for a second.
It's bad that they felt it necessary to because with Digimon Fusion and Dragon Ball Z Kai, Nicktoons didn't have to air only 26 episodes with them. Make no mistake.
That said, I will play devil's advocate for how they bridged the gaps they made in the story so that the dub's plotline would work. For the most part... it does work on its own in the sense of, say, a decent film adaptation of a book which I’ll explain more later on. Better than how 4kids would’ve done it in any case.
That's not to say that there are issues with the recut. I'll go over the major changes:
-The Assassination storyline had TyleTakuya see if Van, Kaz and Amy could be trusted and relied on. In addition, it dealt with Kaz's self-esteem issues as he feared about missing the target and screwing the pooch. The scene of him trying out Hunter is in the dub but it doesn't go anywhere in that version so much as... just seeing how the LBX handles for the Catacombs Contest.
-With both the Assassination and the Angel Star infiltration cut out, Devin Aeron/Eiji Yagami is shown in the dub beginning to doubt Kaido but it comes kinda out of nowhere. In the original version, the previous events lead him to see that Kaido's not who he claims to be.
-Angel Star's removal means that Pandora properly debuts during the freeway fight on the way to Tiny Orbit after Artemis along with the In-bits. -An odd change occurs when Damon get the Hunter skematics and rather than the alias of “J,” Professor Yamano signs the letter with his first name revealing that he’s alive. Why? shrugs
-To bridge the gap and go straight to the Catacombs Contest/Angra Vista, the letter Tyler and Lex get along with the Hunter Exo-Armor states the challenge to win the underground tournament rather than having Van and co. get it at Angel Star.
We see Van, Kaz and Amy arrive at Blue Cats so Tyler and Lex can reveal Jon Yamano’s still alive, inserting a scene from right after the Assassination arc in the animation from episode 5. One oddity sticks out as Lex and Tyler act as though they thought Jon was dead in replacement of their dialogue of the Assassination. Lex had been in the NDR before escaping unless he thought Jon died in the attempt.
-Certain scenes and shots were cut to fit it all into 26 episodes strictly. Things like Tyler confronting his brother, Damon/Yuusuke, at Tiny Orbit were left out.
It may give one the feeling that we missed something when Damon calls about the Platinum Capsule and Metanoia GX's theft and later when we see the CIO/the Seekers relocated in Tiny Orbit. Their conflict over trying to bring down Kaido is sadly left out.
-Another cut is Justin/Jin remembering Nils RitcheYuuya Haibara from his stay at the hospital. The replacement is him thinking how Nils was "outside the mansion last month" but lord knows how that makes sense...
-In Electronica/Akihabara, General Master Otaku/Otacross's fawning over Amy/"Ami-tan" is largely removed since, well, it's an old dude perving on a friggin' middle schooler. This edit is one that I won't blame them for. In addition, Yellow Raven/Otayellow's perversion towards Amy is downplayed too.
-The Electronica Kingdom is cut out altogether and we skip straight to Bobcat/Yamaneko and the Hacker Corps coming over to reconstruct the decryption code because they're apparently tight with Master Otaku. IMO the tournament arc was a bit of bore but the removal kinda leaves out how Daiki Sendo/Dak Sendo warms up to the heroes and joins in the final battle.
It also leaves out the proper debut of Destroyer Z and Nightmare (we see the latter in an arcade battle and the former during the attack on T.O.) but I'm willing to chalk it up to Hanz and Dak upgrading after their recent battle wrecked their robots (Harlequin getting a Breath of Fire at close-range and Destroyer losing an arm while getting caught in its own Attack Routine).
-The scene where Damon/Yuusuke gives Kaz Fenrir's Exo-Armor before the Kingdom tourney is move to right after the failure to gain the code, digitally editing out Justin Kaido in the process too.
I wouldn't mind this scene but how the hell did Damon know when to give Kaz the Exo-Armor? The original had the tourney in a week after the failed mission to the Janus/God Gate and Damon used the time to create the Armor from the data Otaku saved. Here it's like he's a psychic wizard or something. I don't know.
-Not a cut but a big change was having Damon unveil the Earth Crust Generator Project/Seismotectonic Generator Project to the heroes altered to him unveiling the NDR's plot to destroy the Lottawott Powerplant/Tyrant Press. The diagram of Earth's interior is called a "Plasma Core" used in said Powerplant.
-Howard Campenelli/Heiji Kirishima was in the Angel Star arc, trying to defeat Van, Kaz and Amy under their assumption that they’re Tiny Orbit spies and that he’ll be able to restore his own company after losing ownership of the Fortified Cardboard. His proper debut was cut out but he was integral to story’s second half where he steals the Infinity Engine/Eternal Cycler out of a desire to once more get his company back.
The dub rewrites his background as a result and claims he was a Tiny Orbit employee in R & D who was unjustly let go, leaving him with a desire for vengeance that the NDInnovators took advantage of. While it does give context to how he was able to access TO without much trouble, the dub’s rewrite makes him come out of nowhere unlike how the original set him up much better.
-The infiltration of Goliath is cut out. We instead have Justin help Van get out of his depression in time to help stop Saturn. This leads to the sudden appearance of Extreme Mode on Saturn. Though Alternative Mode made a sudden appearance in the Anime as well too.
-The scene where Robo-Kaido's observing the Acorn production is kept to properly introduce Kurtis Kole/Kyosuke Kamiya. Shots of Ami, Kaz, Hanz and Dak are removed. Instead of facing him in the factory, Van and Justin first face Kurtis on Saturn with the latter recognizing their foe as "an LBX legend."
-The Grav-Pump is called “a fully developed Infinity Engine/Eternal Cycler.”
-One final big cut was Lex's backstory. Instead of wanting revenge on the world, he merely seeks to collapse the world economy and help the world in the right direction.
So with all that, you'd expect me to hate it with a burning passion, right? Well... yes and no. Yes, I immensely dislike that they left out a chunk of the story. No, I can’t say that my viewing experience with it was entirely without some for of enjoyment.
I don't think LBX/Danball Senki should be for older viewers solely. I mean, it has the aesthetic of an action adventure kid's cartoon with certain elements that teens and adults will find intriguing too. It's not really for kids alone but All Ages. It's like a Disney movie where there are a lot of things that'll make you go "Kids watch this?!" Gravity Falls and the Legend of Korra do it and do it well.
And to the dub's credit, it actually does have some of these moments retained:
-Devin Aeron/Eiji Yagami's backstory where he lost his wife and daughter is retained. While the dialogue dances around who exactly died, we see him look at family photos before the flashback and hear his past self whisper in horror, "Katie..." and "Suki..." Any kid with a brain can put two and two together.
-Rina's sister, Luna, is clearly dying from an illness and we see the lengths she'll go to ensure she'll live. More on that later.
-Nils RichteYuuya Haibara is still a young boy who's life was stolen away for the sake of an experimental suit and the sight of his mental degradation in Psycho-Scanning Mode is horrific to say the least.
-Laser or not, Rina still shoots Robo-Kaido and we still see her horrified state over seemingly taking a life in cold blood. Damn...
-Damon Osgood/Yuusuke Uzaki is run over after saving Howard Campenelli/Heiji Kirishima's life and Van still witnesses the death of a friend. Yeah, the dialogue once more dances around it (really, I would've expected them to put Damon in a heavy coma) but the fact such a heavy implication remained astounds me.
-Lex also died on Saturn's explosion with no edits about it. So... yeah. Censorship hardly seems like the reason for the abridged story. Hell, they could've said that LBX Assassin/Hitman's gun would fire a laser that'd paralyze the Prime Minister and allow Kaido to take over. They keep the assassination attempt in W's dub but reword things significantly.
Question is... could they make a sort of director's cut dub? All 44 episodes, English Terminology, little to no censorship and the same Ocean Group cast. The Games were localized without removing a thing and it'd be a shame for newer western fans to miss out on a proper English version of the Anime. Release it digitally if TV censors are on their asses.
Personally, the dub is better seen as a book-to-movie adaptation like The Shining or The Neverending Story. Both films are very, very good in their own right standing alone but when contrasted to the source material, you're likely to feel miffed that they left "this" and "that" out. It's worse when you've seen the source material before the adaptation and it’s hardly wrong to demand for a better dub.
Though it falls short of being the best dub it could've been, there are silver linings to these storms:
-The cast of Canadian Voice Actors do great with the material they get and it's no surprise if you look up some of their past works. Kazumi Evens, Shannon Chan-Kent, Andrew Francis, Ron Hadler and Chiara Zanni have worked on the English dubs of Gundam, Oban Star Racers, MLP: Friendship is Magic and even some live action stuff like Supernatural. Even some of the unknowns shine bright. Luckily, this cast makes their way into the localization of Danball Senki Baku Boost.
-The fact that they manage to get crap past the radar when they can like with actual character death despite vague-ing up the dialogue about it.
-The electrical glow VFX for the firearms is... surprisingly consistent and detailed. Though... why not just replace the SFX to make the bullets lasers? It's the future and I can by it but why all the trouble?
-Some of the dub lines are a tad corny but fit the Shonen aspect of the show. Amy comes off as more of tomboy than a girly-girl. Though the script writer always knows when to take things serious when the scene calls for it. Lex's message at the end still carries a lot of the emotional weight of the original.
-The dub soundtrack is FANTASTIC. Unlike 4kids where a lot of it sounds too mashed together, the melodies are very distinctive. I honestly wish a lot of the Action Cues were available for download because they rock. Sadly their only sin is that they don't compare well to Rei Kondoh's epic score.
-The Season 1's finale is called "A New Dawn Rises." Dang, that's clever...
So yeah, for all its massive flaws, I couldn't help but find diamonds in the rough. It’s even archive on YouTube: https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL_ynT_58eiqjyIEjiZNAUgIwX3QSsKTU8u

Fate/Stay Night and/or Fate/Grand Order lore required.
As per the title, how would the Knights of the Round Table have fared as Masters had the Holy Grail been attainable in England during their time?
As in Heian-Kyo, killing other Masters is NOT required for victory, incapacitation/neutralizing is just as fine. As in all Holy Grail Wars, alliances and rivalries can happen between pairs as well.
Unlike Heian-Kyo, this is a "standard" Holy Grail War with each Knight summoning someone from the Seven Classes. Merlin stands in for the Overseer.
Similar to the Fuyuki Holy Grail War, the assigned Masters will be summoning PHH Servants from outside of the British region, with each being someone who arguably suits them as people:
Master Artoria Pendragon & Saber Rama [India]

• the great hero king from the Ramayana who serves as both a contrast with Artoria for his goals, yet at the same time a selfless king whose very shackles were his devotion to the people of his kingdom despite his many wePons and great strength and skill

Master Kay & Archer EMIYA [Japan]

• you know he had to be here, and who better to have for each other, considering the two's disposition and how they both knew Artoria for who she truly was

Master Gawain & Lancer Karna [India]

• just two gallant sunbros always ready for a good scrap!

Master Percival & Rider Saint Martha [Israel/France]

• possessing a spear that could serve as a catalyst for Saints, he calls upon a Saint as good-hearted yet tough as nails as he is. The fact they are both amazing chefs is coincidental.

Master Lancelot & Assassin Shuten Douji [Japan]

• this one goes beyond the fact that they both favor charm and cunning, as well as Lancelot's connection to Phantasmal Species, it's because in the end, he will end up focusing on his desire above all

Master Bedivere & Caster Paracelcus von Hohenheim [Switzerland/Austria]

• Hard working and sincere and devoted, being practical-minded, and aware of his own limitations. Is it any wonder he could go well with someone who also worked hard to uploft his fellow man despite the consequences?

Master Mordred & Berserker Kriemhild [Germany]

• Sharing a strong sense of both retribution as well as a near-self-destructive sense of love, both of these come together to validate their respective passion as well as seeing through the ending they desire to see

Optional 8th Participant: Let's be real, there's almost always one. Sometimes, they're there to stop the madness or to twist it to their own ends.
Master Morgan & Ruler Karl der Große [Holy Roman Empire]

• Ha! You'd expect she would have the Avenger, right? No, PHH's Morgan desired dominion, and just like Karl, she believes her actions to be right for herself and Britain, not to mention that both she and Karl were once great and sincere people who transformed into someone of inhumanly strong will to take more.

Master Galahad & Avenger Angra Mainyu [Persian]

• Unexpected, right? But when it comes down to it, both of these men lack a sense of self, and both of them had been forced to bear immeasurable burdens, the real difference being the nature of that burden; one had to carry the weight of purity itself to the point that Merlin considers him heartless, and the other to carry the weight of All the World's Evil as a sacrifice.

I'm visiting Rio de Janeiro with a friend. We're currently staying in Barra da Tijuca, and we're trying to make plans to get to Ilha Grande on Saturday. We've booked accommodation in Vila do Abraão, but we're not sure what's the best way to get there is.
Here's the problem: we each have one large suitcase (checked bag) and one carry-on. I know it was a mistake, but at this point there's not turning back. Most Ubers, including Uber Black in our experience, don't have enough space in their trunk to put all of our suitcases (because most cars are small sedans, and because of the tanks in the trunks). One Uber driver told us that crossing the border from Rio to Angra with suitcases on seats would be a serious infraction of federal regulations, which is a no-no.
We've seen that there are some companies that offer private travel from Rio to Ilha Grande by van + speed boat, but we're not sure who to trust, and we're a bit worried about whether our suitcases will fit in the speed boat.
The other option would be to take the bus or a shared van to a ferry station, then the ferry to Abraão. But we're also not sure about the baggage allowance on the public ferry. The only ferry that leaves from Mangaratiba leaves at 8am -- it would be pretty much impossible to get there in time I think. We can't seem to find reliable info about ferries leaving from Conceição de Jacareí, and going all the way to Angra to take the ferry to Ilha Grande seems complicated.
Any help would be much appreciated! Many thanks in advance.
TL;DR: trying to get from Rio de Janeiro (Barra) to Ilha Grande (Abraão) with large suitcases, not sure what the best options are.

A couple weeks ago, I made this post asking you guys to rank each of your favourite Fate/Spin-offs. Now I just got curious how you'd rate each Fate Anime. Also, since Mahoyo is coming out next season, this is also open to other Non-Fate Type-Moon Anime. I'll go first! (Also, I'll be splitting the 3 Fate routes because their adaptations are just so different, they aren't really meant to be connected like they were in the VN)

1. Garden of Sinners (Kara no Kyoukai) - I really don't know what to say. What a phenomenal f'ing series. While Movies 1 to 4 were already great as is, Movie 5 and 7 are absolutely God Tier... movie 6 also exists, but we don't talk about that.
2. Fate/Grand Order Absolute Demonic Front Babylonia - I just feel like this story was made for someone like me. It's the very definition of a beautiful epic. I felt like I was watching Legend being made right before my eyes. different stories always detail lore with the tale of epic heroes or whatever, but the main story takes place 2000 years later or whatever, but not here! FGO Babylonia just shows us the myth of Gods and those last 6 episodes.... jesus. It also has my favourite ending theme of all time. Just beautiful
3. Fate/Kaleid Liner Prisma Illya - The Anime for this is pretty controversial and I get it. It really plays up the Ecchi scenes in the manga and makes it so damn hard to recommend to people when the story is so good, but still- I prefer Kaleid over Zero. Though I didn't really care much for Kaleid the first time I watched it, it wasn't really until I got to 3rei that I started feeling the "OH WAIT-" Moment. It felt like everything was just set up for 3rei and you felt it with ever massive bombshell being dropped. Then Oath Under Snow kicked in and it made me go "WHAA". Oath Under Snow has, no contest, my favourite version of Shirou in Anime form. The other anime adaptations of Fate really has a difficult time presenting Shirou's character, but Oath Under Snow just gets it really well (the less monologues made it easier to adapt IG). Not only Shirou, I also loved what Illya represented.
4. Fate/Zero - Idk what to say, it's just pretty damn good. I know a lot of the criticisms on this show and I definitely agree with a lot of them. I too don't like how Saber was butchered and relegated to a weak idealist punching bag, but I think the way she was used in the story was pretty interesting. I would have preferred if the Banquet of Kings had someone resembling Stay Night Saber more, but the way the characters there were used made for a really fun scene overall regardless. I also feel like this is and Babylonia are the two best Fate anime adaptations in terms of being accurate to the source so- there's that. Also, Yuki Kaijura's OST is f'ing amazing.
5. Fate/Grand Order: Divine Realm of the Round Table Camelot - I have a huge bias for this one because Bedivere is one of my favourite characters in Fate and he pretty much carried this movie duology. It would have been better if this was split into a trilogy of films instead of duology, and it is clunky AF, but everything relating with Bedivere was just done so beautifully, I haven't seen it be done in any other Fate work since that. His sincerity as a knight and THAT PLOT TWIST IN THE 2ND MOVIE.... WHAT!? I watched this film before playing the game so I really had no idea things were gonna go in the direction it did. F'ing masterfully that last scene was directed. The only reason this isn't higher is because the first film is really boring. It was once stand outscene near the end, but the first hour was just really dull. Most of the changes there really hurt the film. If were only rating the 2nd film barring that it's incomplete, I'd put this right below Babylonia. I prefer it to Oath under Snow.
6. Fate/Stay Night: Heaven's Feel - I really love this one even over the UBW anime. I can recognise it's flaws, but I also find that this adaptation does so much amazing things that I really can't say I dislike it despite everything. The animation is stellar, the OST is stellar, the voice acting is amazing and scenes like the "I will protect Sakura" in movie 2 is just beautiful. The 3rd film got a bit clunky, but it didn't really ruin the experience for me personally. Still, I think this anime didn't quite deliver on some things. This anime had a total run of 6 hours, I think with an additional like 1 hour worth of content, it would have been way way better. Yuki Kaijura's 4-rings is a god damn masterpiece.
7. Carnival Phantasm - This feels kinda unfair to have on here because half the reason I love this so much is Tsukihime, but it's still really good. The jokes here are all aimed at Type-Moon fans and it's clear whoever wrote this was also a fan of the show and knew inside jokes that only the biggest fans would know.
8. Fate/Stay Night: Unlimited Blade Works (2015) - This I feel is an improvement on the 2006 anime in every possible step except maybe the OST. Beyond last stardust and EMIYA (Which I wouldn't really count), UBW elevates 2006. Of course, adapting the unlimited Blade Works route guarantees as more plot threads get untwined and it's the first route that really digs into why Shiro is the way he is. Funnily enough this route even in the VN feels more like Shirou's route about himself than Rin's route.
9. Fate/Stay Night (2006) - Ngl, I have a soft spot for this anime. Even though it isn't really the best adaptation by any means, I still love it for being my introduction to Fate and the only anime adaptation of the Saber route (God f'ing damn it, Ufo). The OST here is really underrated too. I don't think it gets talked about anywhere near as often as it deserves.
10. Fate/Apocrypha - The only reason this is currently above Fate/Strange Fake is because of the set up. Strange Fake easily has the stronger start (I'd Say Strange Fake has the strongest start in all of Fate honestly). Still, Apocrypha to me is like watching mindless action flick. You sit and binge for all the wows and the spectacle, but you don't really find yourself attached to it like the other fate works. Beyond some occasional cool moments, I never found myself emotionally invested in any of the characters. It's overall an okay show.
11. Fate/Strange Fake - It's hard to say anything concrete on this yet. I really wanna put this higher, but y'know- only one episode is out atm. Anyway, I feel like Strange Fake has the best set up of any any Fate Anime so far. Right off the bat they throw you into a world that just screams "Yeah.... we're gonna make this as insane as possible." Like, I felt Fate/Zero was a perfect look at a normal Grail War. Even if the 4th HGW was already tainted by Angra, for the most part, it all felt like a normal "7 Masters and 7 Servants in a Battle Royale". Strange Fake is just the complete opposite of normal... I didn't know why I didn't expect it, "Strange" is literally in the title lol.
12. Fate/Prototype - This is just a 10-Minute OVA for a show that will probably never come out, so I almost didn't bother putting it in at all, butttttttttttt....... Yeah, this OVA was alright. Nothing mind blowing.
13. Fate/Extra: Last Encore - This actively just killed the Fate series for me the first time I watched it. I remember binging Fate, UBW, Heaven's feel, Zero, Apocrypha, easy breezy, but then when I got here, I struggled so much to continue that I ended up just dropping the entire Fate series for months. Funnily enough, it was Prisma Illya that got me back watching. 3rei just pulling me back in like a black hole. There's really nothing much to say here. The story is convoluted AF, the animation while great, doesn't really make sense a lot of time, and even if I love Nero, she couldn't carry this entire show on her own.
14. Tsukihime - Aside from the OP and general vibe of the show, there is nothing I liked about this anime. They ruined almost everything and everyone in the show. How tf do you turn Shiki.... TOHNO SHIKI, the Nanaya beast, the future Satsujinki, into a walking talking block of Cardboard. Also, those f'ing character designs. I have no idea who thought those designs were good, but they weren't. They be going out ther turning Akiha, Ciel, and Arcueid into 35-year-old Karens.

I really hope I didn't forget anything lmfao. What're you guys' lists?

EDIT 2: /progmetal has opened up again and the original post is available again: https://old.reddit.com/progmetal/comments/bdlv9q/a_small_guide_to_get_into_prog_metal/
EDIT: This list was originally created by u/sam1oq
This is not my OC, but this used to be the top post of all time on /progmetal (which as we all know was shut down) and I saved it some time ago just in case for my own personal use. If anyone knows the name of the OP, please let me know so I can give credit (EDIT: It's u/sam1oq).
Anyways, here's the "small" guide to get into prog metal:

Part 1: The Classics

While there are loads of different styles of prog metal, there are a few classic albums you should listen to before you do anything else. But, even before we get to this list, listen to Dream Theater - Images and Words. Like, now. With the single Pull Me Under, Dream Theater was the first ever prog metal band to get famous (Fates Warning was earlier, but not as successful). This album would influence almost every prog metal artist that came after. Seriously, almost all modern prog metal bands are influenced by Dream Theater. Images and Words is easily the most influential prog metal album out there. So listen to it, now. You may not like it a lot, and a lot here sounds very different from it (so don't be disheartened), but it does showcase the foundations of the genre.
So now let's get to the actual list of classics. I grouped them roughly by year and style. I think these albums provide a good representation of the genre, through all stages of its development. For some artist I listed two albums. The first one will be the essential classic, and the latter will be the more accessible album. Not all essentials are accessible ya know.

• Rush - 2112 (1976, proto-prog metal)
• Queensryche - Operation: Mindcrime (1988, traditional)
• Voivod - Dimension Hatross (1988, thrash)
• Watchtower - Control and Resistance (1989, thrash)
• Fates Warning - Perfect Symmetry, Theories of Flight (1989/2016, traditional)
• Dream Theater - Images and Words, Metropolis Pt. 2: Scenes from a Memory (1992/1999, traditional)
• Symphony X - The Divine Wings of Tragedy (1997, powetraditional)
• Devin Townsend - Ocean Machine: Biomech (1997, ambient)
• Pain of Salvation - The Perfect Element, Pt. 1 (2000, traditional)
• Atheist - Unquestionable Presence (1991, death)
• Death - Symbolic (1995, death)
• Edge of Sanity - Crimson (1996, death/extreme)
• Opeth - Blackwater Park (2001, death/extreme)
• Enslaved - Below the Lights, Axioma Ethica Odini (2003/2010, black/extreme)
• Agalloch - The Mantle (2002, post/folk/atmo-black)
• Tool - Lateralus (2001, alternative)
• Porcupine Tree - In Absentia (2002, rock/metal)
• Orphaned Land - Mabool: The Story of the Three Sons of Seven (2004, oriental)
• Gojira - From Mars to Sirius (2005, groove metal)
• Between the Buried and Me - Colors, Coma Ecliptic (2007/2015, metalcore/modern)
• Protest the Hero - Fortress (2008, metalcore)
• Karnivool - Sound Awake (2009, alternative)
• Mastodon - Leviathan, Crack the Skye (2004/2009, sludge)
• Meshuggah - Catch Thirty-Three, ObZen (2005/2008, Djent)
• Animals as Leaders - Animals as Leaders (2009, instruDjental)
• Leprous - Bilateral (2011, experimental)
• Ne Obliviscaris - Portal of I (2012, black/extreme with a violin)
• Haken - The Mountain (2013, traditional)
• Native Construct - Quiet World (2015, modern)
• Caligula's Horse - In Contact (2017, traditional/alternative)
• Ethmebb - La Quête du Saint Grind (2017, shitposting turned into art)

Part 2: the subgenres

Now something you need to know about progressive metal, is that it isn't really a subgenre, as much as it's a descriptor. There is definitely a traditional progressive metal sound, which was defined by Fates Warning, Queensryche and Dream Theater, but on the whole prog doesn't really lend itself to a solidified sound. "Progressive" stands for bands that are willing to experiment, challenge conventions, etc. Hallmarks of prog are odd-time signatures, frequent key and tempo changes, genre and mood shifts, use of unconventional instruments, etc.
And that's also exactly where the ambiguity of prog as a genre starts as all that could easily be applied to... basically everything (except maybe grindcore or war metal lol). Hence you have loads of different "subgenres" of prog, though it'd probably be more accurate to say that one applies prog to different metal/rock subgenres. So if you didn't dig Dream Theater for example, there's a large chance you just haven't found your niche yet. And that's where this upcoming section comes in. What I suggest is Ctrl+f the essential bands/albums you liked, and try to dig into their style further. I'm not super familiar with all subgenres, but I'll do my best to give you the most important bands.

Pt. 2.1: 70s prog rock, early prog metal and other major influences

The 70s is where prog started. It wasn't metal yet, but these bands would influence basically every prog metal band in one way or another over the course of time. Dream Theater for example was said to have been founded based on a common love of Rush and Metallica. This section will likewise be dedicated to those 70s prog rock bands, the few (non-progressive) metal bands that'd majorly influence the genre and the earliest forms of progressive metal.
Before Dream Theater came and took over the scene, prog metal was largely left to a few more experimental power and thrash metal bands. Especially the US power metal scene in the late 80s (more about that here) had a few trend setters. I'll do the thrash in 2.2, so I'll focus on the power here. There are a couple of bands on this list that aren't really power, but I don't want to put them on the same list as Dream Theater or thrash either. Take traditional heavy metal, add a bit more steel and grit to it and some experimentation, and you have what you'll find in the early forms of the genre.
2.1.1: classic progressive rock

• Rush - 2112, A Farewell To Kings, Hemispheres, Permanent Waves, Moving Pictures
• King Crimson - In the Court of the Crimson King, Red, Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Discipline
• Genesis - Selling England by the Pound, Foxtrot, The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, Nursery Cryme
• Yes - Close to the Edge, Fragile, Relayer, The Yes Album
• Pink Floyd - The Dark Side of the Moon, Wish You Were Here, Animals, The Wall
• Gentle Giant - In a Glass House, Octopus, The Power and the Glory, Acquiring the Taste
• Camel - Mirage, Moonmadness, The Snow Goose, Camel
• Van der Graaf Generator - Pawn Hearts, Godbluff, Still Life; H to He, Who Am the Only One
• Kansas - Leftoverture, Point of Know Return, Song for America, Kansas
• Caravan - In the Land of Grey and Pink Shout-outs: Lucifer's Friend - Banquet; Nektar - Remember the Future; Focus - Focus II (Moving Waves)

2.1.2: the early forms of progressive metal

• Queensryche - Operation: Mindcrime, Rage for Order
• Fates Warning - Awaken the Guardian, The Spectre Within, No Exit
• Voivod - Nothingface, Dimension Hatröss
• Watchtower - Control and Resistance
• Crimson Glory - Crimson Glory, Transcendence
• Savatage - Hall of the Mountain King, Gutter Ballet Shout-outs: Slauter Xstroyes - Winter Kill, Vinnie Moore - Mind's Eye, Oracle - As Darkness Reigns

Pt. 2.2: progressive/technical thrash metal

Thrash metal is a genre which emphasizes aggressive riffs and vocals. There's a relatively high tempo and little melody. This is the most extreme metal subgenre that doesn't necessarily use harsh vocals. In the beginning it was all about pure adrenaline, but over time bands got more technical and wanted to experiment. There were bands before it like Watchtower, but with the release of Metallica's And Justice for All the scene exploded. It was very short-lived (most was around 1990), but there's some amazing stuff in there.

• Watchtower - Energetic Disassembly, Control and Resistance
• Metallica - ...And Justice for All
• Voivod - Killing Technology, Dimension Hatröss
• Coroner - No More Color, Mental Vortex, Punishment for Decadence, Grin
• Mekong Delta - Mekong Delta, The Music of Erich Zann, The Principle of Doubt, Dances of Death (and Other Walking Shadows). Special shout-out to DoD as the title track is a 19 minute whirling prog thrash masterpiece.
• Anihillator - Alice in Hell; Never, Neverland
• Artillery - By Inheritance
• Heathen - Victims of Deception
• Toxik - World Circus, Think This
• Deathrow - Deception Ignored
• Meshuggah - Contradictions Collapse, Destroy Erase Improve. 'Shuggah weren't always djent, they actually started out as tech thrash.
• Nevermore - Dead Heart in a Dead World, This Godless Endeavor
• Vektor - Black Future, Outer Isolation, Terminal Redux
• Gargoyle - Misogi, Tsuki no Toge, Natural, Geshiki, Taburakashi Shout-outs: Blind Illusion - The Sane Asylum, Aspid - Extravasation, Cautiva - Human, Sacral Rage - Beyond Celestial Echoes

Pt. 2.3: traditional/power progressive metal

This is basically the style that was defined by Dream Theater. Long solo sections, the inclusion of a keyboard and great melodies are what you'll find here. The riffs are mostly based in traditional metal, but there's also a lot of thrash influence in them. I also included progressive power metal in this section, because most of them sound a lot like Dream Theater anyway. Power metal is a very bombastic style of metal with fantasy themes (sorcerers and dragons etc), high tempos, emphasis on melody, very operatic vocals and frequent use of orchestra. Not advised for those with musical lactose intolerance XD.
2.3.1: traditional progressive metal

• Queensryche - Operation: Mindcrime, Rage for Order, Empire, Promised Land
• Fates Warning - Perfect Symmetry, Parallels, A Pleasant Shade of Grey, Theories of Flight. Check out this band feature on them.
• Psychotic Waltz - A Social Grace, Into the Everflow, Bleeding. These guys incorporate all sorts of psychedelic influences in their writing.
• Sieges Even - A Sense of Change, Sophisticated. Also take a look at this band feature on them.
• Dream Theater - Images and Words through Octavarium (save for Falling into Infinity) is mandatory listening for your prog vocabulary. But tbh, one could easily make a case that their entire discography is mandatory listening. If you like any of these albums, you'll likely enjoy the rest as well.
• Liquid Tension Experiment - LTE1, LTE2 (instrumental Dream Theater basically).
• Vanden Plas - Christ 0, Beyond Daylight, The God Thing. This is personally my favorite band, but feel free to form your own opinion.
• Threshold - Hypothetical, Critical Mass, Subsurface, Dead Reckoning. If Dream Theater is like Metallica meets Rush, then Threshold is Metallica meets Yes.
• Sieges Even - Sophisticated, The Art of Navigating by the Stars. Then also check out their continuation Subsignal. For that do Beautiful and Monstrous and Paraíso.
• Circus Maximus - The 1st Chapter, Nine
• Shadow Gallery - Tyranny, Room V, Digital Ghosts
• Andromeda - Extension of the Wish, II=I
• Ark - Burn the Sun
• Royal Hunt - Paradox
• Pain of Salvation - The Perfect Element, Pt. 1; Remedy Lane, Entropia, One Hour by the Concrete Lake. This band is a bit darker and more emotional. Opposed to most of the other bands here, they barely focus on the flashy soloing. Their newest album In the Passing Light of Day is killer too, and if you're up for a challenge, listen to BE.
• Devin Townsend - Ocean Machine: Biomech, Terria, Deconstruction. Devin is incredibly hard to place. His "wall of sound" approach is very influential. Also read this piece on him by u/RandomShaman89.
• Ayreon - The Universal Migrator Pt. 2, 01011001, The Source
• Haken - The Mountain, Visions, Aquarius. Frequently seen as Dream Theater's modern successor. Very quirky take on the genre. Shout-outs: Venus in Fear - The Dot Above the Eye, Flaming Row - Mirage: A Portrayal of Figures, Thought Chamber - Angular Perceptions, Avandra - Descender, Need - Hegaiamas: A Song for Freedom

2.3.2: progressive power metal

• Symphony X - The Divine Wings of Tragedy, V: The New Mythology Suite, The Odyssey, Paradise Lost
• Pagan's Mind - Enigmatic: Calling, Celestial Entrance
• Evergrey - In Search of Truth, Solitude Dominance Tragedy, The Inner Circle
• Angra - Temple of Shadows, Rebirth
• Savatage - Streets: A Rock Opera, Edge of Thorns, The Wake of Magellan, Poets and Madmen
• Seventh Wonder - Mercy Falls, The Great Escape, Waiting in the Wings. Their singer is a God.
• Anubis Gate - Andromeda Unchained, The Detached
• Adagio - Underworld
• Labÿrinth - Return to Heaven Denied
• X-Japan - Art of Life
• Kamelot - The Black Halo, Epica
• Control Denied - The Fragile Art of Existence. Chuck Schuldiner's prog power project (Death's vocalist and songwriter).
• Beyond Twilight - Section X, For the Love of Art and the Making. This band is like parody prog. Don't take them too seriously. FTLOAATM is 37 minutes and, 43 songs. It's brilliant.
• Myrath - Tales of the Sands, Hope, Desert Call. Prog power with oriental added in the mix.
• Voyager - The Meaning of I, V Shout-outs: Zierler - ESC, Daydream XI - The Circus of the Tattered and Torn, Maestrick - Espresso Della Vita: Solare, Conception - Flow, Tanagra - Meridiem, Witherfall - Nocturnes and Requiems, Mortanius - Till Death Do Us Part, Dimhav - The Boreal Flame

Pt. 2.4: progressive death/extreme metal

Death metal is an extreme subgenre of metal. It's like thrash, but then with everything cranked up to eleven. The tempo is higher, the riffs are nastier, even less emphasis on melody and instead of shouting we get deep, guttural harsh vocals.
Now for progressive death metal, there are two types in my opinion. One is like prog/tech thrash, but then death metal instead of thrash. It's basically still death metal, but then with more odd-time signatures and technicality thrown in. I'll refer to this is prog/tech death. I won't feature pure tech death though like Archspire or Nile.
The other style is what Opeth defined: long, wandering song structures switching between soft clean and brutal harsh vocal passages at the drop of a hat. Some don't even call Opeth's style death metal as their riffs aren't really death metal (compare Opeth riffs and Death riffs for example, huge difference). Hence I came up with the term "extreme progressive metal". Extreme is more like progressive metal started incorporating extreme metal than the other way around (like prog/tech death). This section will also not be limited to bands who take their extreme metal solely from death metal, but some black metal, melodeath and metal/deathcore-based bands as well. Though I must say often the extreme influences come from multiple of these. Due to this contrast, extreme prog is an excellent starting point if you want to get into harsh vocals. Opeth's Blackwater Park has turned many, many fans onto harsh vocals.
2.4.1: progressive/technical death metal

• Atheist - Piece of Time, Unquestionable Presence, Elements
• Death - Symbolic, The Sound of Perseverance, Human, Individual Thought Patterns
• Cynic - Focus
• Nocturnus - The Key
• Dark Millennium - Ashore the Celestial Burden, Diana Read Peace
• Phlebotomized - Immense Intense Suspense
• Demilich - Nespithe
• Gorguts - Obscura, From Wisdom to Hate, Colored Sands, Pleiades' Dust (EP)
• Necrophagist - Onset of Putrefaction
• Extol - Burial, Undeceived. Also read this band feature.
• Gorod - Leading Vision, A Maze of Recycled Creeds
• Obscura - Omnivium, Akróasis, Diluvium
• The Faceless - Planetary Duality
• Fallujah - The Flesh Prevails
• Job for a Cowboy - Sun Eater
• Black Crown Initiate - The Wreckage of Stars, Selves We Cannot Forgive, Song of the Crippled Bull (EP)
• Alkaloid - The Malkuth Grimoire, Liquid Anatomy
• Beyond Creation - The Aura, Earthborn Evolution
• Horrendous - Anareta, Idol
• Slugdge - Esoteric Malacology
• Rivers of Nihil - Where Owls Know My Name Shout-outs: Warforged - I: Voice, Skyglow - Thousand Years of Terror, Hath - Of Rot and Ruin, Ulthar - Cosmovore, Timeghoul's demos, Phantasmagory - Odd Sounds

2.4.2: Extreme progressive metal

• Edge of Sanity - Crimson, Crimson II, Purgatory Afterglow
• Opeth - Still Life, Blackwater Park, Ghost Reveries
• Enslaved - Axioma Ethica Odini, RIITIIR, Below the Lights
• Borknagar - Empiricism, The Archaic Course
• Dan Swanö - Moontower
• Disillusion - Back to Times of Splendor, The Liberation. BTTOS is my favorite album of all time.
• Ne Obliviscaris - Portal of I, Citadel
• Persephone - Spiritual Migration, Aathma, Core
• Between the Buried and Me - Colors, The Great Misdirect, Parallax II
• Slice the Cake - Odyssey to the West
• Xanthochroid - Blessed He with Boils, Of Erthe and Axen: Act I&II
• Wilderun - Sleep at the Edge of the Earth, Veil of Imagination
• Be'lakor - Of Breathe and Bone, Stone's Reach
• In Mourning - Shrouded Divine, The Weight of Oceans
• Shout-outs: Hands of Despair - Well of the Disquieted, Sunless Dawn - Timeweaver, Kalisia - Cybion, Naeramarth - The Immesurable Stars, Shylmagoghnar - Emergence, In Vain - Ænigma, * Iapetus - The Body Cosmic

Pt. 2.5: progressive black metal and avantgarde

Extreme progressive metal already had some black metal artists in it, but not all black metal bands fit this criteria imo. Most progressive black metal was more on the avantgarde side than the prog metal side. Black metal is an extreme subgenre of metal with very fast tempos, lots of tremolo picking and shrieking harsh vocals. Lyrical themes are usually Satan (or anything else EVIL), black magic, Viking mythology, paganism or nature (mostly winter landscapes lol). It's more spaced out and repetitive than death metal and despite its high tempo it can feel very hypnotic.
I'm not an expert on this, so forgive me if I forgot some artists or albums. If you want it more in-depth, take a look at u/ellanjellan's beginner and intermediate guides to the genre. I'll also include a general avantgarde section here.
2.5.1: progressive/avantgarde black metal

• Enslaved - Below the Lights, Isa, Axioma Ethica Odini, RIITIIR
• Borknagar - Winter Thrice, Epic, Empricism.
• Agalloch - The Mantle, Ashes Against the Grain. This band has a unique combination of prog, atmo-black, post rock and folk that is absolutely stunning. There was also a band feature on them I suggest you read.
• Emperor - IX Equilibrium, Prometheus - The Discipline of Fire & Demise
• In the Woods... - Heart of the Ages
• Diabolical Masquerade - Nightwork, Death's Design
• A Forest of Stars - Beware the Sword You Cannot See, Grave Mounds and Grave Mistakes
• Deathspell Omega - Fas - Ite, Maledicti, in Ignem Aeternum; Paracletus
• Shining - V - Halmstad
• Negură Bunget - Om
• Dark Fortress - Ylem, Venereal Dawn
• Hail Spirit Noir - Pneuma, Oi Magoi Shout-outs: Maladie - Still, Phendrana - Sanctum: Sic Transit Gloria Mundi, Ludicra - Fex Urbis Lex Orbis

2.5.2: avantgarde/experimental

• Ihsahn - Arktis., angL, After and the rest. Ihsahn is the solo project of the dude behind Emperor, so this is a literal continuation from that (though there was also Peccatum in between, but that wasn't really black metal, just very, VERY experimental).
• Thy Catafalque - Róka hasa rádió, Rengeteg, Sgùrr. This band goes into loooonngg avantgarde tangents, but they're done very well. If you enjoy bands that incorporate many different styles, TC is where you should go.
• Sigh - Imaginary Sonicscape, Hangman's Hymn: Musikalische Exequien, In Somniphobia. Sigh has a strong "only in Japan" factor to their music. Essentially they combine Iron Maiden/Venom NWOBHM with black metal and go completely nuts on the avantgarde elements. Just listen for yourself, Sigh's music says more than I can.
• Solefald - The Lineair Scaffold, In Harmonia Universali, World Metal. Kosmopolis Sud. The Icelandic Odyssey series is also great.
• Arcturus - La Masquerade Infernale, The Sham Mirrors, Arcturian
• Ved Buens Ende - Written in Waters
• Oranssi Pazuzu - Muukalainen puhuu, Valonielu, Värähtelijä
• Dodheimsgard - 666 International, Supervillain Outcast
• Krallica - Krallice, Years Past Matter
• Blut Aus Nord - The Work Which Transforms God, Memoria Vetusta II: Dialogue With the Stars
• Leprous - Bilateral, Coal
• Maudlin of the Well - Bath and the rest
• Kayo Dot - Choirs of the Eye, Hubardo
• Mr. Bungle - California and the rest
• Unexpect - In a Flesh Aquarium
• Diablo Swing Orchestra - The Butcher's Ballroom
• Pan.Thy.Monium - everything
• Dissona - Paleopneumatic, Dissona Shout-outs: Pensees Nocturnes - Grand Guignol Orchestra, ISA - Chimera, Garden Wall - Chimera

Pt 2.6: progressive hard/alternative rock

There were a couple of heavy prog rock/alternative bands in the early 2000s that made huge waves in the prog metal scene. Technically none of these are metal (safe for one Riverside album and Sieges Even), but they're all very close and very relevant (and very good!) nonetheless.

• Porcupine Tree - In Absentia, Deadwing, Fear of a Blank Planet.
• Steven Wilson - The Raven That Refused to Sing, Hand Cannot Erase. The solo project of the guy from Porcupine Tree.
• Riverside - Second Life Syndome, Anno Domini High Definition
• Anathema - Alternative 4, Judgement, A Natural Disaster, We're Here Because We're Here
• Tool - Lateralus, Aenima
• A Perfect Circle - Thirteenth Step, Mer de Noms. A side project from Tool's singer Maynard.
• Soen - Tellurian, Lykaia. Started out as an ex-Tool/Opeth super group, but later formed their own style more.
• Karnivool - Sound Awake, Themata
• Rishloo - Eidolon, Feathergun, the rest
• Fair to Midland - Fables from a Mayfly, Arrows and Anchors
• Oceansize - Frames, Effloresce, Everyone Into Position, Self Preserved While The Bodies Float Up
• The Mars Volta - De-Loused in the Comatorium, Frances the Mute
• Coheed and Cambria - first three
• The Dear Hunter - all the Act albums. They have an overlapping story.
• Thank You Scientist - all full lengths. Jazz fusion-y prog rock. Not very metal, but they've exploded onto the prog scene in recent years. Shout-outs: Kingcrow's latest four, Hällas - Excerpts from a Future Past, Sermon - Birth of the Marvellous, Karma Rassa - Vesna... Snova Vesna, Keor - Petrichor

Pt 2.7: progressive/post sludge/stoner metal

Sludge/stoner metal are subgenres of doom metal. They're defined by a very thick guitar sound, spaced out songs and listening to it generally feels like being high. Sludge is a bit more extreme than stoner as it also incorporates hardcore punk influences. I don't know much about this style, so I'm going mostly based off internet opinions and wikipedia/reviews knowledge. If you want it more in-depth, read (again) u/ellanjellan's guide on the genre. I'll also include some prog doom albums at the end, which is simply too niche to get its own section. Now here's the list:

• Mastodon - first four
• Baroness - Red Album, Blue Record
• Intronaut - Valley of Smoke, The Direction of Last Things. For if you want some cool rhythmical shenanigans
• Elder - Lore, Reflections of a Floating World
• Neurosis - Through Silver in Blood is their definitive work, but anything post-Souls at Zero is essential
• ISIS - Oceanic, Panopticon
• Cult of Luna - Salvation, Somewhere Along the Highway
• Pelican - Australasia, The Fire in Our Throats Will Beckon the Thaw
• Kylesa - Kylesa, Static Tensions
• The Ocean - Pelagial, Phanerozoic I: Palaeozoic
• Anciients - Heart of Oak, Voice of the Void. It's as if Opeth and Mastodon had a baby.
• Moon Tooth - Chromaparagon
• Katatonia - Night is the New Day, Dead End Kings, The Fall of Hearts
• Dreadnought - A Wake in Sacred Waves, Emergence Shout-outs: Dvne - Asheran, Spaceboy - Getting Warm of the Trail of Heat, Kylver - The Island, Ayahuasca - Plato's Dark Horse, Weedpecker - III, King Goat - Debt of Aeons, Nautilus - The Oceanwalker

Pt 2.8: djent/progressive metalcore (and other -core genres)

I know very little of this genre, but I'll do my best with what I can gather from the internet. Meshuggah defined the Djent sound, and lots of bands followed on this. They tuned their guitar very low to get this "djun djun" or "djent" sound (hence the genre name). It has a strong emphasis on rhythmicality. Polyrhyhtms, groove and heaviness are the name of the game. Also read this guide by u/TheGalapagosGallop on Djent, it's very comprehensive.
Djent had a lot of overlap with (progressive) metalcore, as they figured their breakdowns would become even heavier with the djun djuns. Metalcore is a style that came out of hardcore punk bands adding an increasing amount of metal influences (mostly groove and melodeath). It is trademarked by a mash of hardcore-styled harsh vocals and generally poppy sounding clean vocals, and lots of breakdowns (the music stops for a second and then they go into a super heavy riff). There is more to the sound, and if you want to know more about metalcore and its history, read the Metalcore wiki.
If this sounds like edgy emo shit to you, you're not wrong, but luckily progressive metalcore bands are usually of way higher quality than "regular" metalcore. The difference in quality between Bullet for My Valentine and Protest the Hero for example is staggering. There's a very good chance you won't like any regular metalcore band, but will adore some of the bands in the coming list.
This section will also be dedicated to other -core derivatives like deathcore, mathcore and post-hardcore. I'll make three lists, one that goes into djent, one with progressive metal/death/math-core bands, and one with progressive post-hardcore bands. I split up the last two sections because post-hardcore is a lot lighter than the others.
2.8.1: Djent

• Meshuggah - obZen, Nothing, Catch Thirtythree, I. Also read this band feature on them.
• Periphery - I, II, IV. But tbh these choices were completely arbitrary as their quality is super consistent.
• TesseracT - Altered State, Polaris
• The Contortionist - Exoplanet, Language
• Skyharbor - Guiding Lights, Blinding White Noise: Illusion & Chaos
• Textures - Drawing Circles, Silhouettes
• Veil of Maya - The Common Man's Collapse, [id], Eclipse
• VOLA - Inmazes, Applause of a Distant Crowd Shout-outs: Ihlo - Union, Hyvmine - Retaliation

2.8.2: progressive metal/deathcore and mathcore

• Between the Buried and Me - Alaska, The Silent Circus, Colors and everything else if you dig their sound. Also read this guide on them.
• Protest the Hero - Fortress, Kezia
• The Dillinger Escape Plan - Calculating Infinity, Option Paralysis, Dissociation. Not really metalcore, but rather a combination of math rock and post-hardcore.
• SikTh - The Trees Are Dead and Dried Out, Death of a Dead Day
• Car Bomb - Meta, w^www
• The Human Abstract - Digital Veil, Nocturne
• After the Burial - Dig Deep, Rareform, In Dreams
• Born of Osiris - The Discovery
• Erra - Augment, Impulse
• Slice the Cake - Odyssey to the West
• Shout-outs: The World Is Quiet Here - Prologue, The Alpha Incident - Convergence, Pangaea - Vespr

2.8.3: progressive post-hardcore

• Dance Gavin Dance - Downtown Battle Mountain, Happiness
• The Fall of Troy - The Fall of Troy, Doppelganger
• Circa Survive - Blue Sky Noise, On Letting Go, Juturna
• Coheed and Cambria - first two
• Sianvar - Stay Lost
• Eidola - Degeneraterra, To Speak, To Listen
• Hail the Sun - Wake, Culture Scars
• Closure in Moscow - First Temple, Pink Lemonade
• Thank You Scientist - The Perils of Time Travel
• Future Corpse - Another World to Consume, Culture Ruins Everything Around Me. definitely essential, definitely not biased

pt. 2.9: instrumental prog

With all the input from the comments, I will finally include this section. It's such a huge branch of prog it's criminal to leave it out. What type of music you can expect here is fairly obvious from the name of the style. It might not all be metal in the strictest definition of the word, but at this point, who cares about that? Here's a list:

• Liquid Tension Experiment - everything. Instrumental Dream Theater if you will.
• Animals as Leaders - Animals as Leaders, The Joy of Motion, The Madness of Many. Great instrudjental stuff.
• Allan Holdsworth - Metal Fatigue, Secrets, Wardenclyffe Tower
• Intervals - The Shape of Colour
• Plini - Handmade Cities
• Arch Echo - Arch Echo
• Sithu Aye - Set Course for Andromeda, Cassini, Senpai EP II: The Noticing (I only included this because I thought the title was funny please don't hate me)
• Scale the Summit - Carving Desert Canyons, The Collective, The Migration
• David Maxim Micic - Bilo 3.0, Who Bit the Moon
• Cloudkicker - Beacons, Let Yourself Be Huge, Subsume
• Owane - yeah whatever, Dunno
• Nova Collective - The Further Side
• An Endless Sporadic - An Endless Sporadic, Magic Machine
• Night Verses - From the Galleries of Sleep

Pt. 2.10: modern heroes

This will be the final section. There's not really a unifying sound here, but maybe that's exactly what defines them. These bands largely defy classification. I have probably featured most of these here earlier, but I felt making a separate list for them was fair. Despite the title of this part, I'll include some older bands as well which I feel would warrant a place in this section. Here's the list:

• Haken - The Mountain and everything else
• Leprous - Bilateral and everything else
• Karnivool - Sound Awake and everything else
• Native Construct - Quiet World. This is like BTBAM, but less -core influences and generally lighter. It's a wonderful theatrical experience and it's a real shame they've stopped the project. Also check Others by No One if you liked this.
• Caligula's Horse - In Contact, Bloom, The Tide. These guys mix traditional prog metal with alternative rock and the result is absolutely phenomenal.
• Arcane - Known/Learned and everything else. CH's singer Jim Grey's previous band which basically died under the latter's popularity. Arcane is like CH, but with more post-rock and prog power influences.
• Earthside - A Dream in Static
• Ne Obliviscaris - Portal of I, Citadel. Mentioned earlier. They took the spirit of Opeth and carried the torch into the new generation. They combine melodic death and black metal with gorgeous clean sections and violin play.
• Amorphis - Skyforger, Under the Red Cloud. A very unique combination of melodeath, folk and prog metal.
• Pain of Salvation - same as in 2.3.1.
• Cynic - Focus, Traced in Air. This is basically jazz metal.
• Orphaned Land - Mabool: The Story of the Three Sons of Seven, Unsung Prophets & Dead Messiahs. Also an older band. They started as death/doom, but they got more progressive over time. But their defining feature has always been their stellar use of Arabic and Jewish folk music in their sound.
• Headspace - I Am Anonymous. They're like a grittier, heavier Haken. Also features Threshold's previous vocalist. Shout-outs: Embrace of Disharmony - De Rervm Natvra, Artificial Silence - In Static, Ethmebb - La quête du Saint Grind

Continuing…
“That’s fucking dangerous, Rock”, Ssgt Dirk noted.
“I am, as always, open to suggestions”, I reminded our crew.
“There’s a pretty good path here”, said one of our Albanian co-workers.
“Looks like shit.”, I said, “But, it could maybe…”
“Smallest man time, Doc?”, I was asked.
“Yep. Recon on a rope. We need eyes down there and it’s too damned dusty for drones.”
“Lt. Gale!”, the call went up.
Lt. Gale was an African fellow, probably about 2 meters in height, but with exactly zero body fat (the bastard). He could wend and wind himself through the smallest openings, he was flexible as a flexy piece of flexed Flexam™, and strong as the proverbial ox.
We’d get him into a 9-point harness and he’d squirrel down just about any place he could fit. The guy was supernatural. He went through places I couldn’t go without a howitzer and a front-end loader.
He was good, damned good; and I’m glad we had him.
He refused any PPEs, as he claimed they just caught on everything, but I finally convinced him to take a re-breather. A few minutes of oxygen don’t take up that much space.
We helped slip him in an opening that looked more like a rathole, but he went through that like hamburger down a disposal. We all had radios and he had his as well as a flashlight. He shouted out coordinates and distances and we built an immediate 3-D diorama on the plucky little laptop Agents Rack and Ruin gave me last Christmas.
After 15 minutes, he found the couple, trapped behind what looked like 3 meters of broken limestone, concrete and general geological garbage.
I handed Lt. Gale a cigar and cold beer for his fine work today, as well as the commendation for his service. He’s going places in the Botswana Armed Forces when he returns home.
We looked at the 3-d projection on the walls of out HQ tent.
Time was fleeting. I had to act.
“Gent’s, it’s nut-cuttin’ time.” I spoke. “We go in with the backhoe and take out this wall. Ssgt. Dirk and myself will charge in and plant several shaped charges to not only shred the wall behind that, but blow all lithic shrapnel away from our easily corrupted mammalian bodies. That will force an air mass back and allow you guys to hammer the opening with the door-defeater. (Primacord strung on a hunk of plywood). Once that all settles, we grab Hansel and Gretel, who thanks to Lt. Gale are scared shitless but dehydrated and hungry, but in decent health. I’ll be in last directing the evacuation, and I’m going to wear an extra stout 9-point harness and extra heavy manila rope. No plastic for me, I want the genuine fibers.”
There was some snickering by some of the more dope-headed among the crowd.
“Later. Later.” I smiled wanly. “Then, we get everyone out, and with the bracing we’ll bring, it should give us easy minutes to extract the couple.”
In a game measured in seconds, minutes are a fucking luxury.
We went over the plan time and time again, until it was honed to LASER sharpness. We tried different scenarios and this one kept popping up with the fewest places that things could go south.
“Gentlemen?”, I asked of my infiltration cadre, “Are we ready?”
“GREEN!” was the common reply.
“Then let’s line up ladies.” I snickered through a blue cirrus of stogie smoke, “It’s showtime.”
I leapt with all the grace and grandeur of a wounded wildebeest up on the already running backhoe. I was getting instructions from my forward observers and moving into attack the wall that would go down in a flurry of dust, rat shit and other foul odors.
It came down nicely, and as I whipped the backhoe some 180 degrees, I was already pawing and scraping away the debris toward the new opening and stuffing off to the side, out of sight, out of mind.
The first contingent of sappers, me included, leapt forward; me off the burbling Deisel backhoe and the little Albanian character was hitting the throttle to pull our only piece of heavy equipment back and out of the way.
For now.
Ssgt. Dirk, Lt. Gale and myself infiltrate the new hole in the rubble and begins to set shaped charges. These will knock down all the loose rubble and at the same time, create space for that rubble.
It’s a conservation of mass thing. Very sciency.
Anyways.
The charges go off with near simultaneous WHOOMPs, and what holes in 3-space were opened, were almost as immediately filled with more rubble.
The balance of the universe has been preserved.
Some of my team are attacking the hole we made with pickaxes and sledgehammers, to both create new space and keep the bloody hole open until we can effect an egress, heavy two locals.
Lt. Gale and three of his squad run in with a 2” x 3” piece of heavy marine plywood, that has a pattern of Primacord interlaced on the obverse side. They put that parallel to and with the wall, and use a length of 2x4 to hold it in place; and so, we have developed a single-direction detonating door element with delay function.
We pound out a tattoo on the wall to let the couple on the other side know we’re coming in and to get to the far western wall.
I hope they had a compass with them when they were buried.
Lt. Gale, the little Albanian, Ssgt. Dirk and myself are making ourselves as small as possible as far away from the doorbuster as we possibly can as it detonates at 22,700’ per second and opens a beautiful, almost artisanal, hole in the wall.
The small Albanian corporal is through the hole in mere seconds, as the rest of the compliment are sneezing their heads off and waiting for the smoke and dust to settle a bit. By the time we reach the new hole in the wall, it’s already crumbling under gravity’s loving and unending embrace, but the woman is through and being manhandled out to safety.
The man was stunned by the doorbuster, but seemed to gain composure when he saw daylight; fuzzy, dust-diffused daylight for the first time in three days. He was next out through the cupola.
I went in to do a recon for any other people, alive or dead, and gratifyingly enough, found none. There were people’s effects here, like a smashed China cabinet and a family’s worth of smashed China, mangled silver pots and destroyed little potty pottery knick-knacks.
I had a brief chill as I imagined my family home, where I grew up, flattened and destroyed.
That little bit of pseudo-nostalgia nearly cost me my life.
I heard Lt. Gale and Ssgt. Dirk yell simultaneously that a wall was coming down.
It’s wasn’t a wall, but the entire ceiling, if you could call it that, for it was once actually a floor, decided to let go and descend at 32’/sec/sec.
The trouble was, there were 4 of us ‘rescuers’ in the way.
In mere seconds, we were ‘rescuers down under’. Under tons of shattered limestone, river cobbles and decayed concrete.
I instinctively used my cyborg left hand to fend off some of the larger cobbles, but it became wedged in a fissure in the wall when a very large hunk of rotten concrete fell in on our positions. Smaller rocks, pebbles and clasts tympanized off our hardhats as ton after lethal ton of ex-building material swept down upon us.
A large, zagged hunk of concrete with a frosting of asphaltic blacktop hit my helmet, grazed the left side of my face, and slammed directly into my left shoulder. That spun me to the left, a bit, as my helmet came loose and fell to my feet. My left hand was loose as I dropped down into the vertical fetal position to get real small, ahem, and at the same time, retrieve my helmet.
What seemed like weeks was in reality but a few seconds.
I called to the others.
Radio’s dead, of course.
Dust is so thick it’s like breathing soup; chowder, not bouillon, and the collapse noises were still reverberating around the room.
It was pitch black, it was an avalanche, and there were perhaps the four of us trapped under a few hundred tons of muddle, muck, and mire.
Yeah, there was the unmistakable stench of a broken sewer pipe and the flowage of stagnant gray water.
“OH, THANK YOU SO VERY MUCH!” I screamed into the darkness. “ANYTHING ELSE, YOU CHAPPED BASTARD?”
Damn Cthulhu anyways. He owes me…I really give illusory deities hell when I’m in a pickle…
Then there was silence.
Deafening silence.
Terrifying silence.
“WHO IS HERE?” I hollered, “SOUND OFF!”
Silence.
Followed by more silence.
Well, that’s a two-bagger.
One bag is full of good that everyone got out. Except me.
OK.
Sort of good.
Another bag is full of bad. No one got out and I’m the sole survivor.
Neither bag is one I wanted to take possession of right at the moment.
“Assess situation:”
My scientific mind kicked in and began wrestling with my reptilian-cortex that was duty bound to do anything to ensure survival. Arrr-snarl-Pythagorean Theorem…
“Assessment:”
Basically fucked, boned and hosed. Respirator was torn off in the initial fall of rock and whatever hell else is confining me. Hardhat retrieved but not before left shoulder took a hefty impact. Feels like I’ve got an owiee there. (Rotates left shoulder). Yep. Sprained, strained, busted or dislocated. Hurts like hell. Isolate it and get on with the Sit Rep.
“Dark”. As in the absence of light. Very uncool.
“Still silent.” It’s been actual minutes since the in-fall. I am starting to get mildly very concerned.
“Situation stable, at this time.” No more falling rock. Either we’ve run out of supply or we’re packed in like a tin of sardines. Neither was much of a beam of hope nor happiness.
I finally get to my flashlight. After a quick lighted assessment, next time, I think I’ll leave the flashlight behind.
“Conclusion, part 1:” I’m buried alive.
One positive item, there’s airflow. My cigar smoke is wafting up and out of my crypt. Well, there’s a bit of good news.
However, the air stinks. It stinks of impatience, mold, desperation, and old, ancient cooking grease.
I’ve smelled that before. Last time, I was in hospital for 3 weeks on ventilation and massive doses of antibiotics.
After only a 15-minute exposure.
OK, not much I can do now.
“Resume situation assessment:”
Legs are both pinned by aggregate, but loosely. I’m not cemented in place nor squashed up against a wall.
“Well,” I thought, with a Popeye-sized puff of tobacco, “Not as bad as I feared.”
Then the room shook and continued to shake for what felt like hours.
I had to force a deep, calming breath; which meant trying not to swallow my cigar.
“Light tremor. Nothing above a 3.0MM (Modified Mercalli scale). Probably more to come. If that wasn’t the room itself shifting…”
“H…e…l…p…”
I hear a weak voice.
“Who’s out there. Make some noise, say something!” I commanded.
“Lt. Gale.”, the voice replies. “I’m caught.”
“Assessment: are you bleeding or have any broken bones?”
“No, I don’t think so. I’m just caught up by some Rebar sticking out of this damned shitty concrete.” He said.
“OK, we appear to be the only ones here…”
“ROCK! YOU OK?”
It was Ssgt. Dirk.
“Dirk, you OK? Assessment!”
“I’m OK. I was in the other room when the floor, or ceiling, gave way.”
“Anyone else missing?”
“Nope, just Gale and you.”
“OK, let’s keep our wits about us. Breathe slowly and not too deeply. I fear there’s black mold, carbon monoxide, and other nasties in here with us. Keep up off the floor and try to stand. Slow and steady, no heroics.” I commanded.
“Ssgt Dirk, can you effect an egress?”, is what I thought I said, what it was rendered more closely to “Dirk, can you get the fuck outta here?”
“I think so, there’s another room on the east side that didn’t take much infill. I think I can get out the upper window.”
“OK, go for it. We need immediate EVAC. Lt. Gale’s in a bad way. I’m OK for the time being. Get out and rumble the crowd. Only you on the backhoe, I don’t trust any of those other yobs digging around in here. Get the ventilation guys to flood this place, but NO OXYGEN. We’d go up like a rocket with all the loose flames and gas in here.”
“Jawohl, Herr Doctor”, Ssgt. Dirk replied as his voice drew farther and quieter.
I took a second to stop, think, draw in a huge gout of cigar smoke, exhale same and wonder how the hell I ended up like this again.
“Didn’t I give up lethal situations for Lent?” I wondered aloud as I dug for an emergency flask for this was a bona-fide emergency and one that I did not want to face sober.
Lt. Gale was coughing like a child of the Dark Ages with whooping cough. Just my luck, the tallest guys in the ranks is probably stuck close to the floor and breathing in all sorts of aerosolized nasties.
“Fuck my luck!”, I swore at no one in particular. “Fuck this place!!!”
Then I felt a palpably cool draft.
Then I heard the starting ruckus of two huge portable mine-ventilation fans.
I heard rocks and rubble falling, but it was different, they were falling outward.
Don’t ask how I could tell, I just could.
“Good ol’ Dirk”, I thought, “On the backhoe and got the ventilators cooking as well”.
“Hey!” I brightened.
“I just might not croak here today!”, I thought for the very first time.
Then the ceiling, or floor, your choice; parted and a large 12’ square by 2’ thick portion dropped on top of me.
I sensed, rather than saw, the huge hunk of flooring, or ceiling, drop and hit me squarely on the right side of my head. My left hand shot up instinctively as I threw it in the path of the falling boulder as I twisted downward to the right, the only small open area that was currently available.
“FUCKING SHIT PISS-EATING GODDAMNED CHROME-PLATED FUCKBUCKETS!”
I swore loud and long as the hunk of abominable flooring mashed my left hand and arm, ricocheted off my hardhat and scored a direct hit on my right shoulder and side.
I tried to push it off, but that didn’t work. Seems that my left arm was wrenched around the back of my head, and that wasn’t working as well. My hardhat lay crushed under the piece of high-velocity flooring. I tried to stand, or at least, right myself from the stupid bent-over knees not advancing behavior, but that only caused a searing jolt of electric-blue pain to the backside of my coconut. I tasted coppery-irony liquids and my vision, not seeing much in the gloom of the room, was as if I was suddenly under water.
I was bleeding profusely from a head wound, all stickily-warmly from my coconut and yet, both my hands were presently immobile and not terribly useful.
At least I still had a firm chomp on my smoldering cigar.
I looked down to barely see the growing, hot, putrid puddle forming in my long, shaggy beard.
“Oh, dear.”, I recall saying, “Is this the end of Rock…?”
Then, everything went very, very quiet.
And very, very black.
There was no more pain. Even my tinnitus and agonized sacroiliac had shut up shop.
I felt…exactly…
Nothing.
No fear. No pain. No worries. No…well...nothing.
I remember having a hard time taking in a breath.
“Suck it in”. That generated a riotous rictus of pain.
“Negatory on that, good buddy.”
“Oh, OK. Thanks for the update.” I spoke. Or so I thought.
Time seemed to take on no meaning.
How long had I been here? Two minutes? Two hours? Two days? Two years?
“Dunno.”, came the disembodied reply. “Can’t see my fucking watch.”
“What the actual fuck? Had I gone schizophrenic? Am I having conversations with myself?”
“I dunno. I’ll ask around. How about you?”
I was deeply confused. But, no fear. No sense of loss.
No…well…
Nothing.
Zip. Zero. Zilch.
I felt a strange calmness. Ease. Serenity. Tripping away on the calm light of a new day…
A pillow of winds…Comfortably numb…
“NO!”
Then I felt a palpable sense of incandescent burning rage.
“NO!”
Pure fury. Electric-purple hatred. “NO!”
“NO! I REFUSE! ESMERELDA! HEAR ME!”
With every iota of potential, pent-up energy stored in this old, battered body, I hurled myself…
“MOTHER FUCKERS! NO! ESME! ESme! Esme…Es…”
And with that, headlong into the void…
“Well, it’s about fucking time”, the white-clad medico intoned.
“What? Who? Where?” I sputtered.
“The usual questions”, the medico mentioned, but not to me.
“Is my cigar? Where’s my pants. I want out of here.” I said, trying to stand up only to lose egregiously to gravity.
“That’s not usual for a patient who just missed the near-death express”, he chuckled.
“Hello, Dr. Rock. I am Dr. Valdemar Väisänen, your current caretaker.” he said, looking straight down to the gurney where I lay splayed.
“Hey, Doc Worgleworsh. Where are my pants? I need a shirt. I need a pair of drawers. What the fuck’s going on here?” I protested.
“No wonder you survived, you’re too cantankerous to die.” He chuckled.
“Yuck it up, fuzzball”, I said to the bewhiskered sawbones. “Holy fuck! What did you butchers do to my beard?”
“Damn. That’s it. Right to the important bits. You Americans. We had to bob it a bit as it contained most of your blood supply and you were having rather a sapper’s time breathing through it.”, he explained.
“No excuse for the futz-cut.” I protested.
“Oh, that’s not all. Got an hour or two? Want to hear what other conditions you’re currently hosting?”, he continued.
“Hit me, dealer. I feel like I can’t lose much more.” I wearily stated.
“Indeed. Let’s see. Fractured skull. Brain concussion...obviously the least of your worries…”
“Oh, a funny Finnish doctor.”, I snorted, “Look Herr Mac, I’ve got more degrees than a thermometer factory.”
“If so,” he asked, “Didn’t they teach you somewhere to stay out of unshored, dilapidated buildings in earthquake zones?”
“Many times”, I said, “I just tend not to listen where there’s civilian lives on the line.”
“OK, I’ll grant you that.”, he said, “Here I thought I had some hard-headed hero type.”
“Holy hell, Doc”, I chuckled, “When you’re wrong, you’re really wrong. I’m the Smithsonian’s type-section of a misanthrope. I don’t discriminate. I hate everyone equally.”
“Right”, he scowled. “That’s why you were dead last to be pulled out of that stinking hole. And I’m using the terminology ridiculously pedantically.”
“What?” I asked. “What are you tap-dancing around?”
“You died in that cellar, Doctor.” He said with a face that looked like it was chiseled out of Aleppo Marble he was so white.
“Yes”, he said, “You were clinically dead. No heartbeat. No pulse. Even your cigar had gone out.”
“NO! The horror, the horror”, I squealed in mock terror.
“Doctor Rocknocker, are you feeling all right?”, he asked, “I just told you that you had died and you make a joke about it.”
“Better to have died and be able to joke about it than to have died and not.” I replied. “Shakespeare, I think, or written by some character of the same name.”
“You are one very strange person”, the Finnish doctor, whose name I never did pronounce correctly, remarked.
“So? Continue.”, I asked, “What else had gone south for the winter, body-wise?”
“Well,” he continued, “Let’s see. Two torn rotator cuffs, two dislocated shoulders, sort of goes together, doesn’t it? Yeah. Fractured sesamoids, right wrist, a most unusual set of digitation on the left, though partially crushed, rollicking infection in your left hand implant area; greenstick fracture, left radius, fractured olecranon process, left and right elbows, minor fracture right aspect of the C3 and C4 cervical vertebrae. Oh, nice set of cervical ribs, by the way. Don’t get to see those every day. Inhalation-ingestion of a copious amount of blood into the left and right lungs, carbon monoxide poisoning, various black molds inhalation, a pair of cracked ribs, left aspect, probably when you twisted to avoid some falling concrete. Several new scars to go with your current set. Broken third and fourth digits, right hand. Left hand digital aspects? Dunno. Have to wait for the television repairman to give his report.”
“Oh, you missed your calling. A stand-up asshole…” I murmured.
“Plus, various large areas of subdermal hematoma, all gone rather polychromatic by now”, he noted, pulling up my gown to reveal a patch of psychedelic colors on my chest swimming there shallowly below my battered epidermis.
“Oh, and you’ve medially fractured all the metacarpals in your right hand.” He finished.
“Doc, give it to me straight. Will I ever play the banjo?” I implored.
“With some physical therapy, I don’t see why not”, he said.
“There’s some relief.” I said, whooshing out a great exclamation of relief. “Haven’t been able to for 50 years, hell, if all it took was dying…”
“Doctor, you are a strange and very silly person.”, he added.
From what I could gather form official records, I was in that stinking hole for better than four hours. I had inhaled black mold spores, some penicilliums fraction that wasn’t a good idea to breath in, carbon monoxide, hydrogen sulfide (very low concentration, <0.015%), and a lot of my own blood.
I had aspirated the blood after the floor fell in and crunched me into a most improper and uncomfortable position.
Let that sink in.
I was breathing my own blood.
And they can’t quite figure out why I didn’t stay dead.
I had no pulse. I had no heartbeat. My cigar had gone out.
Yet, they dragged me out after 4 hours’ time and tipped me upside down, head low. The blood that ran out of every topside orifice was death-black and they put me on 100% oxygen. Someone, obviously the lottery loser, was chosen to pound on my chest and get the ol’ ticker thumping again.
The medical consensus was that the blood I had aspirated protected my lungs from the carbon monoxide (my blood titer of CO set a new Finnish hospital record) and I hadn’t stopped ticking too long before they hauled me the hell out of there.
Or, through the magic of evolution and the mammalian diving reflex, the blood in my lungs tricked my body, currently busy with the processes of shutting down, into believing that I was just diving in ice-cold water.
Hence, I am here now shakily writing this. Agents Rack and Ruin want copies as they really can’t believe the Finnish account of “Well, he lived, let’s go with that”.
I was dragged out of the accident scene and as I noted, Ssgt. Dirk and others basically hung me by my boots and drained my lungs of the blood before it congealed.
They put me on 100% O2, and called for the UN’s medics.
One look at me, after I was cut down and almost breathing on my own, I was shuttled by helicopter to the nearest airfield and packed aboard a Gulfstream twin-turbo jet and whooshed to Finland.
The closest hospital with emergency pulmonary care.
I spent 3 weeks in Helsinki University Hospital. At one point, I was breathing a bioplastic fluorocarbon liquid almost exclusively. Think The Abyss, without decompression.
I was told it was touch and go, with all my compression injuries. Luckily, I had my MedAlert dog tags on that day. It told them of my bovine heart valve, double cardiac bypass, miles of wiring in my chest, NO MRI, nor Cat Scan, and piles of titanium I carried around. Also, the website of the research company in Japan for concerns with my left paw.
I did lose 19 kilos but I don’t think I’ll recommend this form of diet for anyone with the desire to keep breathing.
My medevac and treatment cost well into the 7-digit territory, but all was covered by my insurance, the UN and the government of Turkey.
Amazingly, all my kit made it home before me. I owe Ssgt. Dirk and Lt. Gale (he was fine, of course. The young are fucking indestructible.) a debt I don’t know that I can repay. But I will try if they’ll allow me.
Finest kind, those fellows.
As were the volunteers and workers, both foreign and local; allied with the UN, Oxfam, the Red Societies, and the like. May good luck and providence reign over these folks.
And, as I’m now an even more devout atheist, I hope those thieving, scurrilous, evil bastards taking advantage of the poor, burdened, dead and dying fall under the purview of Kali, Lucifer, Cthulhu, Vinz Clortho, Yetzer Hara, Abbadon, Angra Mainyu, Baba Yaga, Satan, Asmodeus, Beelzebub, Lucifer, Belial, Iblis, Rahu, Angra Mainyu, Mana, Mongo, the guy who first developed Lite Beer, and that asshole that cut me off the other day just outside of Minot.
I’m back and on the mend. The greeting by Khan nearly put me back in hospital, but he’s just so happy to see me.
As was I happy to see home once again.
Long time talk with Esme and it’s official, I’m hanging up my spurs.
Consulting? Fine. Boots on the ground? Not so likely.
Well, we’ll see.
I’ve got a backlog of papers to write, a couple of ideas for wells that I want to write up and float amongst the oil operators I’ve known all these years. I’m also taking time to go to Greece with Esme. She’s always wanted to go and I’ll be damned if I’ll put these things off. Not now.
I’ve been beaten, bruised, and battered.
I also essentially, no scratch that, I died in that Turkish shithole.
I like to think that it was science and evolution that kept this old curmudgeon kicking rather than any sort of celestial father figure or beliefs in Cosmic Muffins, angels, unicorns and the like.
But I sure as hell won’t begrudge those who believe in such who helped keep this old fart from perdition’s gate.
All this sounds perfectly ghastly, and by and large, it was. I mean, I’ve been on the bell-end of many of life’s more nasty events, and usually came up smiling. This time, I think, is going to require some serious skull time. I might, perhaps, talk to people who help others deal with this sort of well, dying stuff. I’m not convinced that a headshrinker could help me sort this all out, but I’m not going to discount it out of hand.
However, I do know, I’m going to take Khan for more walkies, I’m going to talk to my kids more often and be with Es as much as practical. I’m also going to relax more; indulge in some hobbies I’ve put off for far too long and go fishing whenever the accident will. I’m also not going to quit cigars nor alter my alcohol intake, although I promise to be more introspective of it as time marches on.
And I’m just damned glad to still be in that parade.

30

I am going to clarify it, I know that currently this theory does not have much life, but it was a theory that I formulated when the game had just come out, I wanted to comment on it, in case someone finds it funny
My theory was simple, what if Dante was similar to Angra Maiyu from Fate/Go? I mean, what if every time Dante brings the Sinners back to life, he not only has to endure the pain, but also pay a price? This price would be to bear the guilt of the Sinner's sins, perhaps he is aware of this, and decides to hide this truth behind a naive and clumsy attitude, if this were the case, perhaps that is why Outis "protects" Dante, because knows that truth or even she could know, that if something happens to the "container" of her sins, something very bad could happen. Perhaps even Dante's fate could be something much darker, perhaps he must save the planet from a catastrophe, having to accept carrying on his shoulders the sins of countless lives. In the end, Date would be similar to Angra, innocent people, with a good heart, but who were cruelly used by the people around him, sinners, who were very afraid to face the truth and decided to use a scapegoat.
Again I reaffirmed what I said at the beginning, I know that this theory does not make sense at present, but it was a theory that I formulated when the game had just started, I just wanted to share it in case someone found it interesting

EPHESIANS   Chapter Two (https://esv.literalword.com/?q=Ephesians+2)
 

From the death unto the lives
[verses 1-10]  

-1. Also you, that were dead in your offenses [בפשעיכם, BePeeSh`aYKhehM] and your sins,
-2. in past you walked in them, according to [לפי, LePheeY] epoch [עדן, `eeDahN, αιων, aion] the world the this, as want the principle that to him is the rule in sphere of [בספירת, BeeÇPhaYRahTh] the intermediates [הבינים, HahBaYNahYeeM], and he is the spirit, the laboring now, in sons of the rebellion [המרי, HahMahReeY].  

“The thought is marshaled in long and involved sentences with clause linked to clause and phrase to phrase, the whole constructed with deliberation and forethought. ... In 1:3-14, 15-23; 2:1-7, 11-13, 14-18, 10-22, 3:1-9 (with the long interpolation 2-13); 4:1-6, 11-16, 17-19, 20-24; 6:14-20 [this is more fun if read out loud] we have a succession of unwieldy periods such as no other Pauline epistle can show; it is difficult not to feel that such handling of language betrays the mind of another writer. In Colossians, indeed there is an approach to the same style, especially in ch. [chapter] 1; but even there it falls far short of the sustained reverberation of the Ephesian periods.” (Beare, 1953, TIB p. X 598)  
“The word ... αιων [aion], which elsewhere in the N.T. [New Testament] always means ‘age’; here alone ... has the personal sense in which it was used by the later Gnostic teachers – ‘eon’ or ‘emanation.’ This sense is required by the parallel terms used in apposition with it – prince and spirit.  
A strict adherence to grammar would require us to construe spirit in apposition with power, not with prince; but this would impose a very involved interpretation. The anacoluthon (αρχοντα [arkhonta]... πνευματος [pneumatos]) is easily explained by the intervention of the double genitive εχουσιας του αερος [ekhousias tou aeros].” (Beare, 1953, TIB p. X 640) [Just for fun.]  
“The old way of life, marked by trespasses and sins, is now said to have been subject to a demonic power of evil, conceived in terms of a personal spirit who rules over a kingdom of evil in the atmosphere which surrounds us. Originating in Persia, in the dualistic doctrine of the great prophet Zoroaster, the figure of a malevolent rival to the supreme god of light and truth had impressed itself widely upon the religious imagination of the Hellenistic age, not least effectively in the later Judaism. Among the Jews this master spirit of evil had been identified with ‘the Satan’ (lit. [literally], ‘the accuser’) – a comparatively inconspicuous figure of the earlier Hebrew mythology; he does not appear at all in the older strata of the O.T. [Old Testament, the Hebrew Bible]” (Beare, TIB 1953, p. X 639)  

-3. And also we, all of us, were trespassers [מערבים, Me'oRahBeeYM] with them in [the] past. We partook [עסקנו, 'ahÇahQNOo] in our lusts [בתאוותינו, BeThah’ahVOThaYNOo] the fleshly [הבשריות, HahBeSahReeYOTh],
we filled [את, ’ehTh (indicator of direct object; no English equivalent)] desires [תשקות, ThShOoQOTh] [of] the body and [את, ’ehTh] impulse [דחף, DahHahPh] [of] the thoughts,
and we were from our natures [מטבענו, MeeTeeB`ayNOo] sons of wrath [זעם, Zah'ahM] as that [are] sons of ’ahDahM ["man", Adam].  

“The Jews for all their privileges cannot boast that their moral and spiritual condition has been superior to that of the Gentiles... Paul himself sums up his discussion of the relative moral conditions of the Jewish and Gentile worlds (Rom. [Romans] 1:18 – 2:29) in the words: ‘There is no difference: for all have sinned and come short of the glory of God’ (Rom. 3:22 – 23); cf. [compare with] Rom. 10-12 ‘There is no difference between the Jew and the Greek’ ... it is in the field of moral conduct, not spiritual allegiance, that he equates Jews and Gentiles.” (Beare, 1953, TIB p. X 647)  

-4. But [אבל, ’ahBahL] Gods, the full [of] compassions, loved us,
and in his love the multitudinous, 5. even though [אף כי, ’ahPh KeeY] dead we were in our offences, revived us with the Anointed [Messiah, Christ] - Lo [הן, HayN], in mercy you were saved [נושעתם, NOShahThehM]!”  

“Quite un-Pauline ... is the use of the perfect, in speaking of salvation ... Paul uniformly speaks of salvation as a process continuing throughout life (I Cor. [Corinthians] 1:18, ‘to us who are being saved’), or as the final issue of the process (Rom. 5:9, we shall be saved”) ... Paul would say ‘you have been justified,’ or ‘you have been reconciled to God,’ but not ‘you have been saved’ ... The use of the perfect in this context is, however, in keeping with the attitude to eschatology consistently shown by the writer of Ephesians ...” (Beare, 1953, TIB pp. X 645-646)  

…
-10. That see, doings [of] hands of Gods are we,
created [ברואים BROo’eeM] in Anointed YayShOo`ah ["Savior", Jesus] to doings good,
that Gods prepared them [הכינם, HayKheeYNahM] from previous [מקדם, MeeQehDehM] to sake we would live in them.
 

“That we should walk in them is an atrocious Hebraism, tolerable only because of its familiarity to us. The ινα [ina] clause is not final (‘in order that’), but epexegetic, defining the range of the noun– ‘duties (good works) for us to perform.’” (Beare, 1953, TIB p. X 647)  

…………………………………………………  
Unity in Anointed [verses 11 to end of chapter]  

-11. Upon yes [על כן, `ahL KhayN], remember, you, what was in [the] past,
you, the nations [הגוים, HahGOYeeM] in the flesh, the called “uncircumcised [ערלים, `ahRayLeeYM]” in mouth of the called “circumcised [נמולים, NeeMOoLeeYM]”,
that their circumcision is in flesh, and doings of hands is she.
-12. In same time you were without Anointed,
strangers [זרים, ZahReeYM] to congregation of [לעדת, Le`ahDahTh] YeeSRah-’ayL ["Strove God", Israel],
and foreigners [ונכרים, VeNahKhReeYM] to covenants [of] the promise,
lackers of [מחסרי, MeHooÇRaY] hope and to no Gods in [the] world.  

“Ancient paganism knew many myths of gods (Attis, Adonis, Osiris) who died and were restored to life by some form of higher magic; but in general it may be said that it knew no god to whom belonged the power to raise from the dead whomsoever he willed. (Zoroastrianism should be mentioned as a remarkable exception; the followers of Ahura Mazda were taught to look forward to the final triumph of the kingdom of light and truth and goodness over the powers of Angra Mainyu, which opposed it, to a universal judgment of the living and the dead, and to a future life of blessedness for faithful Mazaits. This religion had great influence on the thought of Judaism after the Exile, and so indirectly on early Christian ideas; but it is doubtful if it was as yet itself a living religion in the Mediterranean area. In the third century it spread widely throughout the empire, in its later form of Mithraism, being especially popular in the camps of the army.)” (Beare, 1953, TIB pp. X 652-653)  

-13. But as of now [כעת, Kah`ayTh], in Anointed, you, the far in [the] past, become close upon hands of blood [of] the Anointed.
-14. Lo, he is our welfare [שלומנו, ShLOMayNOo],
he made [את, ’ehTh] the two to one,
and destroyed [והרס, VeHahRahÇ] in his flesh [את, ’ehTh] partition of [מחיצת, MeHeeYTsahTh] the hostility [האיבה, Hah’aYBaH].  

“Some think this is an allusion here to the wall called chel, which separated the court of Israel from the court of the Gentiles; but this was not broken down until the Temple itself was destroyed and to this transaction the apostle cannot be supposed to allude as it did not take place till long after the writing of this epistle” (Clarke, 1831, p. II 423)  
partition “... a reference to the wall which divided the inner court of the temple, open only to Jews, from the outer court. The destruction of the temple in A.D. 70 carried with it the destruction of this wall ... It is improbable ... that this figure would have occurred to any Christian writer while the wall was still standing ... the expression ... points to a post apostolic dating for the epistle.” (Beare, 1953, TIB p. X 652)  

...
-18. By way of him [דרכו DaRKhO] have, to you and to us, access [גישה, GeeYShaH] in spirit one unto the Father.  

“A striking illustration of the manner in which the doctrine of the Trinity corresponds to the facts of Christian experience in redemption and worship.” (Beare, 1953, TIB p. X 659)  

...   An Amateur's Journey Through the Bible

U/cyanrealm:

No survivor type character needs a hero. She does

She doesn't need a hero. The world does.
Who saved her from Zouken?
Who saved her from Shinji?
Definitely not Shirou. Saving Sakura was just the act of Shirou saving his human side. In super hero ending, he killed his humanity instead.
Let move our hero out of the picture, what's the worst thing could happened to Sakura? Nothing. She would be release from being tortured, guilt, loneliness. Angra Mainyu can turn anything into pleasure. She would gain unimagine power and get her own revenge on the world.

To claim that they are the same characters is straight up comical.
How can you compare an idealistic fate shirou , with the shirou who gave up his ideals to save sakura ? How do you compare UBW shirou which confronted with the consequences of his actions , and still decided to press forward to the mind of steel shirou which is practically like archer in mentality ?

They all walked the same path though, just with a different pace.
Fate/Shirou did turn into a machine, did abandon his ideal just like Archer. The only thing keep him stay strong is Saber.
UBW/Shirou didn't abandon his ideal, did get crush under it's weight just like Archer. It's just he found an answer after that.
HF/Shirou is much better, as Sakura become his answer...the meaning of his life. Thanks to that, he did skip the entire process of resenting, abandon his ideal.
Super hero is heavily hinted that become Kiritsugu ver2.0. We all know Kiritusgu did abandon his ideal to focus on Shirou, attained a small pieces of happiness.
All version have to get through the false desire, the impossible wish to define their own life's meaning. Fate/Shirou is Saber, UWB/Shirou is the beauty of the ideal (again, not the ideal itself), HF/Shirou is Sakura. They're all the same
U/oldregime :
It very much has to due with what we learn in the VN
If you play the VN, you learn that Shirou’s mentality is much darker than what we see in the anime; this is due to the large amount of monologues and inner thoughts that are present in the VN. Shirou sees himself very much more of a burden than an actual person and does not think himself worthy of happiness or a good life. One could say some of his thoughts are suicidal or pessimistic in nature. At one point he even question why isn’t he dead when all the others perished when the grail was destroyed in the previous HGW
Sakura is in a similar boat. In the HF route we see much more of the trauma that’s being inflicted upon Sakura and we have a character who is broken but has only managed to maintain herself through Shirou.
We have these two characters who are victims of an unfortunate set of circumstances that leave them with very little self worth, and we know of the paths they walk.
Emiya clings on the ideal of Kiritsugu which is to become this hero of justice but we all know where that path leads and his fate as counter guardian emiya.
Sakura tries to carry on out of love for her brother and Shirou. She endures the torture from Zouken and the abuse from Shinji (sometimes sexual) as she feels guilt from what Shinji has become and robbing the spot as the Master representing the Matou’s; not to the mention the abandonment she’s feels regarding her sister who never saved her. Her mindset is one lost in the idea that she deserves what happens to her and there is no miracle that could save her
Their lives parallel each other and their characters lead to a relationship that feels much more natural than F/SN or F/UBW. They very much come to be a major source of strength for each other. With HF we see both break. Sakura snaps mentally and emotionally whereas Shirou forsakes what has kept him going for all those years. I think this lends itself to the popularity of the Heaven’s Feel route and Sakura as a character.
Despite the “Senpai” spam, I think Sakura is the best heroine of the three routes and HF as a whole is my favorite because it takes the darker concepts/undertones that have been in the background or mentioned/implied and pushes that to the foreground
U/remirror :

her having the best chemistry with Emiya

Oh, that's great! That means the trap has been perfectly set, and all you have to do is wait for the second movie and...

Having not played the VN, but having read summaries

oh fucking hell
*
An attempt at a serious answer: Basically, the first step is that Sakura and Shirou have cute and fun interactions and hey, wouldn't they make a great couple? They already act like a married couple arguing over chores, except because they're Shirou and Sakura they negotiate everything backwards: "No, I'll do everything and you should just relax!"
So there's this dream of them getting together, and it's only more compelling when you compare it to what Sakura's been through in the past, and then Heaven's Feel brutally rips that dream apart. Everything seems to be going to hell: not just the events of the plot, but Sakura herself and all her relationships are going in exactly the wrong direction. Then, when everything is at the absolute nadir, it turns out this is exactly what she needed to overcome her issues and get to that wonderful happy ending you barely even dared to dream of.
Basically, Sakura is as dramatic as it gets, so her magic is kind of hit-or-miss, but if it works on you it will turn you into an absolute fanatic.
‌U/farson135 :
I will just say, that some of the "Bad Ends" point to a very dark Rin, and they are one of the reasons that I do not like Rin nearly as much as Sakura, and Saber. In other words, tragedy is not what I am looking for (I can get that with Rin). I suppose what I see in Sakura is a survivor type, and that is something I can respect.
For the record, here is the "Bad End" that particularly sticks with me (HF Spoiler)- Rin tricks Shirou into making a contract with her that makes it so that he cannot defy her. When Shirou stands up to Rin, thereby abandoning all of his beliefs. She binds him, kills Sakura, and then carries him along for the rest of the war as her servant. Even if she can justify killing her own sister, it was incredibly cruel on her part to keep him around, and force him to serve her after abandoning everything to save the woman she killed. Compounded by the question of, why?
U/farson135 :
Shirou was mentally broken from the start (survivor's guilt). Saber is the one that can talk about temporary insanity, while Rin can't. Temporary insanity would never be accepted as a defense for something that lasts hours (how long Rin was considering killing Sakura) or days/weeks/etc. (how long Rin tortured Shirou).

And rin killed her sister for the greater good.

You seem to think that matters. Kiritsugu killed people for the greater good. Shirou would eventually kill people for the greater good. Saber (it could be argued) killed Shirou to save an entire country (the greater good). The "greater good" does not make a person moral, or their actions just.
I do not care about her actions in isolation, I care about the whole. And the whole picture is a bad one. She ignored everything wrong she saw going on with Sakura, because it was her duty. She abandoned her sister to years of misery because that was what she was supposed to do. She then killed Sakura because it was her duty. She then decided to torture her sister's boyfriend (effectively) just because. That is not temporary insanity. That is not even insanity. That is just Rin turning her eyes away from problems, every step of the way. This "insanity" argument of yours, is just another example of her running away from her own decisions.
Even outside the "Bad Ends", Rin outright crosses the line from being a tsundere, to being a bitch with Sakura. More running away from her own feelings, and hurting other people in the process.
One of the nice things about Fate is that no character is perfect, and in that way are very human. Rin's problems are great enough that she is at the bottom of the heroines list for me. Hardly the worst character in FSN (for what that is worth), but also no where near as high in terms of likability as the other two.
Rin is a good character, but also a bitch.
U/farson135 :
Good writeup, and I agree with most of it.
Honestly though, I think my biggest issue with the entire scene is that it comes off as inorganic. The "hand of the author" is clearly in place in order to create tension and justify an unnecessary fight, rather than allow it to flow from the scene.
From the beginning of the confrontation, the scene was pushing the idea that Rin would kill Sakura, and the tension build up was centered on whether Shirou would arrive in time to stop things (the "gameplay" also pushes this).
I think a percentage of Rin's hostility was centered more around achieving that goal than her characterization. Rin's attitude goes beyond a simple clumsiness, and into outright stupidity;

"…Well said. Where's your guardian? You're a coward, so doesn't it bother you that he's not by your side?"

Seriously? That's your opener? What the hell are you doing Rin?
Obviously we still have to deal with it from a lore perspective, but this scene felt rather clumsy to me in a number of ways.
I've been thinking about doing a major write-up about this scene for years, but never got around to it. I really need to put my thoughts down in detail.
‌
U/gral075 :
I'm a little disappointed in your analysis, tbh. You are glossing over the fact that just like Shirou, Rin didn't want to know the truth and never bothered investigating the red flags. She'd rather ignore the evidence in order to keep imagining that Sakura is happy, never risking pulling that curtain. Sakura's idealized picture of Rin is really not far from the truth. Rin really is talented and strong, and she pursues Magecraft because it makes her happy. You're even using Dark Sakura's attitude towards Rin when she first attacks the Emiya residence, but Sakura is objectively right there: Rin does get back up, and she does find a way to defeat her when they next fight. Rin, compared to Sakura, really had a blessed upbringing. Kotomine, despite his psychopathy, was not a horrible guardian. Yes, it wasn't perfect by any means, no one can doubt it was lonely, though she did have Mitsuzuri as a friend. But that loneliness was at least in part self-afflicted. No one forced Rin to keep herself separate and above the other students, to never reach out to her sister. That was a decision she made herself, because she thought it was what she needed to do to honour her legacy as a Tohsaka. And one of the reasons HF is so great is that it's the only route where Rin, like all main characters, actually confronts her family's legacy and manages to step away from that shadow and stop being burdened by the sins of her father.
You are also glossing over the fact that in the Rule Breaker scene it's not Sakura who's trying to kill Shirou. It's Angra, that brat who doesn't know when to give up. Sakura is not herself at this moment. It's the ultimate proof, as if we needed more, that Sakura is not in reality an evil villain. She is herself corrupted by Angra Mainyu, and her sins are mostly in her head. But she blames herself, and it has been demonstrated earlier that she cannot believe it if someone tells her she is innocent. Saber first makes that point early on in the route, Shirou reinforces it in the rain scene and elsewhere. Taiga has an excellent scene in the movies about that same thing. Sakura is wrong when she says "it's all my fault", as she always blames herself for things that are demonstrably not her fault. And for her, specifically, the correct answer is not to say "No, it's not", because she won't believe it. It's "Yes, you're guilty but it's alright". This does not mean that she is actually guilty, or that her real self is evil. It is simply the only approach that can work with her, when it is impossible to overcome her tendency to blame herself after she has used it as a coping mechanism for more than a decade.
Maybe less of a problem with your analysis , but you also mention Shirou's character development over all three routes and there can be no overall character development when it's three different Shirous who go through different events and come to different conclusions.

And you are misreading Medea, a character extremely similar to Sakura, a woman who was betrayed far more than she did the betraying, who did not deserve her suffering the reputation she got, whose ultimate wish was exactly the same as Sakura's: To live a quiet, happy life with the man that she loves.
U/gral075 :

I quite specifically said that, I don't know how I'm glossing over it.

I said you are glossing over it because you ignore its implications when you say that Rin could not have done anything for Sakura. She could. She just chose not to, in part because the lie was more comfortable than what the truth might have been.
Mostly, yeah. The bits she doesn't understand are very important, though.

Mostly, yeah. The bits she doesn't understand are very important, though.

They are not completely unimportant, but I think you are overemphasizing them and absolving Rin.

I acknowledged this.

And yet you used this as an example of how Sakura's perception of Rin is skewed. How can it be skewed when it's actually right?

And frankly, you're rather understating how bad Rin had it. Kirei as a guardian isn't that bad on its own - Kirei as a guardian after both of your parents died is another matter. Mitsuzuri seems like the only person she's remotely friendly with, and even that's filtered through the fact she can't reveal anything magic-related to her.

I'm really not. Kirei, from everything we see, was far from a terrible guardian. I would go as far as to say that he might have been better in that role than Tokiomi was and would have been.

Correct! However, this is the result of her upbringing and like you said she was burdened by the sins of her father. It's similar to why Sakura never reached out to Rin, or shared anything with Shirou, even when it was clearly the rational thing to do. You don't blame kids for bad decisions caused by trauma.

I don't see how they are similar at all. Sakura reaching out was the opposite of the rational thing to do given everything she knows, while Rin had no reason NOT to reach out other than her own biases. Perhaps you consider me as being unfair to Rin, but the key difference is that Sakura (like Shirou) was actually traumatized. Rin wasn't. Yes, Rin's life wasn't perfect, but she had the most healthy upbringing by far out of any character in this story. It wasn't simply better than Sakura's, it was so much better as to really be blessed.

I am, because I didn't find it relevant to the point I was making, nor does it really undermine my argument.

Really? You said that Sakura is pushing Shirou away physically and with lethal force. Does it not matter if it's not actually Sakura the one pushing him away but an external force, still trying to keep them apart?

On the contrary; she is fully herself, after Rin made her snap out of it - Angra is acting independently from her, now. There is a brief moment where she returns to the previous Dark Sakura attitude when she says she's going to kill Shirou before he kills her (the voice acting portrays it very well) but overall she's very much her regular self here.

She is herself in the sense that Rin's hug snapped her out of it, but she is not herself in the sense that she is still connected to Angra. The threat to Shirou does not come from Sakura, and she does not return to Dark Sakura in that moment. She can't control her powers. When she says "I'll kill you", it should be read in the same way as "I killed many people". She is blaming herself for Angra's actions, but she is not actually responsible for them. She is not pushing away Shirou physically, as you said. She is still trying to warn him, not willingly harm him. The distinction matters.

I really like this point, but I would add that the approach that seems to work here is - "yes you're guilty, here's the punishment" (it is basically a token gesture to indicate that Shirou understands she is supposedly a 'bad person') and then "it's alright".

And I like how you put this. A token punishment to assuage her unwarranted sense of guilt. And it makes HF Normal all the more tragic. "This is your punishment" are the last words she hears from her senpai. Her punishment in that timeline is a life away from him, and this is why so many people prefer it. They think she's evil and should be punished with more than a token gesture.

Character development can refer to both a character changing over the course of the story (I will admit it is almost exclusively used in this sense) but also to additional characterisation and information being revealed about them which makes them deeper and more nuanced.

I have never heard it being used in the second sense before now.

Furthermore, the three routes are intended as a progression where each expands on and develops the themes of the previous one.

A progression that failed for most readers, but that's a completely separate discussion.

If you go and read what I wrote again, you'll find nothing that contradicts what you said here. Just because I didn't portray her in a sympathetic light in this case doesn't mean I don't think she is a sympathetic character.
It was used by Medea to enslave others in the way that she had been enslaved.
Even freeing herself from her abusive Master was just another act of vengeance for her.

I disagree with both those assertions. Rule Breaker was used to break Servants free, not enslave them. Medea did try to enslave Saber, but that's a separate thing from her use of her Noble Phantasm. And breaking free from her first Master was not another act of vengeance at all, when it was motivated by his monstrous workshop.

But it’s also a real punishment, as Sakura is freed from everything that had controlled her until now, forced to find a way to atone for everything she’s done without any easy excuses or convenient escapes.

I also disagree with this, btw. Like Shirou says immediately before, "Even if it wasn't Sakura's will, those actions will haunt her forever." It's not about easy excuses or convenient escapes, it's just more of what we discussed above about the correct response when she thinks something is her fault.
U/garl075 :

I didn't mean to say it was impossible for Rin to do anything to help Sakura. I was, as you put it absolving her of failing to do so.

And you should not have absolved her. This is my point. Rin deserves to be blamed for doing absolutely nothing for Sakura and ignoring the warning sign, and even more so in the other routes where she keeps doing nothing for Sakura and even pushes her away from Shirou "for her own good".

They are important enough to totally flip Sakura's perception of Rin and herself when she realises.

You yourself pointed out that Sakura immediately goes back to blaming herself for everything, like she always does. How can you trust her perception of Rin and herself after that? She is not an objective observer. The opposite, in fact.

Because it was irrational to believe at the time, something that the narrative specifically mentioned. It's not like Sakura predicted that Rin would make the gem sword - she was just as surprised when it actually happened.

Just because she didn't predict the specific mechanism by which Rin could beat her, it doesn't mean that she was wrong to think that Rin would find a way to beat her. Sakura was not educated in Magecraft, so there's no way she could have predicted what trick Rin would pull, no matter what that was. But Rin did find a way to beat her, therefore proving Sakura right.

You're overfocusing on Kirei.

You are the one who used him as a reason on why Rin's childhood actually sucked. And he is the only factor that is unique to Rin. Everyone lost their parents, everyone was burdened by the sins of their fathers.

I think, and was trying to convey in the post, that in large part this scene is about showing that Rin is traumatised, despite initial appearances to the contrary. Being brought up as a mage with both your parents dead is not a good upbringing, and describing it as 'blessed' is very strange. It is blessed in comparison to Sakura's, but Sakura's situation is so bad that literally almost anything else would be.

I would not describe Illya's or even Shirou's upbringing as blessed compared to Sakura's. But Rin's was. Her parents chose her to keep. Yes, it was tragic that they died, but she at least was left with fond memories of being loved, untainted by betrayal and abandonment. She was raised in luxury, wanting for nothing. She was not forced to become a Mage, she chose it herself, and she chose it because she found it fun.

Just because Rin seemed to turn out okay on a surface level, it doesn't mean she's not traumatised. Her failure to connect with Sakura isn't just her being an asshole, it stems from an inability to emotionally connect with others. The shadow of her father isn't just a burden on her mentally, it actively distorts her actions. She literally attacks and tries to kill Shirou in UBW because she can't properly deal with her feelings of attraction to him.

Rin never kills Shirou. Her attempt to kill him is half-hearted at best, and mostly stems out of her own pride, not her inability to connect with others. She connected just fine with Mitsuzuri, even if she had to keep important things hidden. And she connected just fine with Shirou in all routes.

She's well adjusted in comparison to the cast of Fate/Stay Night. The cast of Fate/Stay Night. That's not exactly saying much.

It's saying that she cannot be judged by the same criteria. Her upbringing provides an explanation for her actions, but she should not be absolved for them. She (and Shinji, though I really don't want to equate the two) was given choices, and she chose poorly. Though I admit my perception is coloured by the other routes, where the shadow of her father is never even addressed, her choices are even worse, and she is a worse character as a result.

She is still pushing him away physically, to be clear. There's a point where Shirou is non-lethally pushed by tendrils that are noted to be Sakura doing it on purpose. I described it as "She doesn’t just try to push him away emotionally, she does so physically", which I think is accurate.

She doesn't actually want Shirou to come closer, at least on the surface.
"I know. It's that kid's fault for not giving up. He's throwing a tantrum because he doesn't want you taken away.
Hold on. I'll smack him and get him off of you."
It's pretty clear that her words and what her power does have to be separated at this point. Sakura is literally physically restrained by Angra and Shirou is approaching to free her of him. She's telling Shirou to go away because she can't control it and she's afraid for him, and because she doesn't think she's worth saving, wanting instead to kill herself and stop being a danger to those she loves.

She is not deliberately trying to kill him, however, which - you're right - does deserve to be addressed. I think this parallels the way Shirou non-lethally 'punishes' Sakura. It's more symbolic than anything, representative of the outpouring of emotion that Sakura feels in that moment.

I disagree. The outpouring of emotions is through her words. There is nothing symbolic about Angra trying to stop Shirou from freeing Sakura. It's just the ultimate proof that Sakura really is not responsible for all those deaths, no matter what her self-loathing tells her about herself.

She says 'I'll kill you' a few different times. I specified that one line where she says 'I'll kill you before you kill me' for a reason.

Yes, and all these times are the same. She wants him to live, she wants to kill herself and take Angra with her so that her senpai and her sister can live. All of these lines are indicative of the same thing, and not one of them shows Dark Sakura resurfacing.

She never used it without the intention of subsequently becoming that Servant's Master. It's also clear that she understands being a Master as an act of enslavement of the Servant.

Her own Master-Servant relationship with Kuzuki proves otherwise. Servants cannot exist without a Master, so it's natural to use it this way.

No, it's inextricably connected. Medea's use of Rule Breaker is what causes Saber to come under her control. It is all portrayed as one action. We don't see Medea 'free' Saber with Rule Breaker, and then use a second, different spell to take control of her. Remember, we're talking about what the Noble Phantasm is used for, not just what it does. That's what I mean by Shirou recontextualising it - he doesn't change its abilities, he changes the way they are applied.

But we do. This is the whole point of Medea subjecting Saber to that BDSM session. This is the second, different spell to take control of her. She wouldn't need to do that if Rule Breaker was enough.

Being motivated by the wrongs of another doesn't preclude something from being an act of vengeance, it is literally the definition of the word. That's what makes Medea so tragic. All of her acts of vengeance (whether proportionate or not) were responses to things done to her. She became trapped by that cycle. Killing her first Master wasn't a proud moment for her, even if it did free her. It was her embracing the role of a witch that was forced upon her by others.

Vengeance implies being wronged yourself. Medea doesn't kill Atrum to take vengeance for him mistreating her. She kills him because of what he does to those kids. This is either justice or, more likely, punishment, but it is definitely not vengeance. None of Medea's actions in Stay Night are motivated by vengeance. She has moved past it. She did embrace the role of a witch, but she did it for an unambiguously good cause in killing Atrum, and then for the sake of her own mundane wish. The tragedy of Medea in F/SN is that she is really not as bad as her reputation suggests, though she is obviously far from a hero herself, and that HF Shirou would not find it impossible to work with her if she had lived long enough. I
I just wish we'd seen her interact with Sakura outside of HA.

Just to be clear on what I mean by these two: an easy excuse would be what she did when she became Dark Sakura. She blamed all of her actions on those around her that didn't save her, like Rin. She embraced and justified her dark impulses. It's not a healthy response to the situation.
A convenient escape would be like she suggests in this scene, leaving her and letting her die by herself. Obviously not a healthy response either.

I see what you mean now, and I can't really disagree. I've just seen too many people who have called things like her abuse or Angra's influence nothing but easy excuses, so my mind jump to that. She is right, to an extent, to blame the people around her, especially Rin, but she does take it too far and she even recognizes herself that it's not healthy in her talk with Rin.

Shirou frees her from the possibility of both of those things. She has to live normally, now, and try to come to terms with herself. That's the beauty of it as a 'punishment' - it is painful for Sakura, who feels guilty for what she's done. However, it's not arbitrary or punitive, it's how she's supposed to heal.

And I agree completely with that.
‌U/CherryLoverMike :
Aside from the few occasions where the shadow targetted Rin specifically, there's no indication it was targetting anyone because Sakura wanted it to. As far as I can tell, the large-scale deaths that happen nearer the end of the route were basically just Sakura's subconscious saying "I'm hungry, let's go get a midnight snack". There's no evil intent there, really, any more than a lion is evil if it decides a person looks like a nice snack and eats them.
And, no, it's not true that Angra just "makes her real emotions come afloat with no hold backs". It clearly does suppress her positive emotions to an extent, as well as stopping her from restraining herself. That doesn't mean that the darker emotions aren't her emotions, but they're not all of her emotions.
For example, Sakura very clearly and obviously loves Shirou. But, in Dark Sakura, that love is almost entirely absent, in fact she barely seems to care about him at all. And she also loves Rin, even if she also resents her but, again, in Dark Sakura, that love is barely noticeable. It's very clear that it's not just her "true feelings" coming to the fore, her positive feelings are also being suppressed.
‌U/CherryLoverMike :
No, the actions she "performed" under the influence of the shadow are not even manslaughter, for the same reason that someone who kills someone else whilst sleep walking has not committed a crime. A crime requires intent on the part of the person committing it (not necessarily intent to commit a crime, but intent to commit the act that constituted a crime). Sakura was not committing any intentional act, so she's not responsible.
And, no, that's absolutely not how insanity works. If someone is clearly "not theirself" then they're insane, even if they are still aware that what they're doing is wrong. And Dark Sakura is definitely "not herself", her actions prove that.
‌U/farson135 :
FSN is a story about growing up. These are high school kids, about to take the next step into their lives. Sakura, and the Shadow are also a part of this. Sakura coming to terms with her inner-demons is straight out of Carl Jung (Jung even refers to the "Shadow" archetype), and it is a necessary part of self-actualization.
The problem with the Normal Ending is that neither Shirou, nor Sakura really grow up. Shirou would do the same thing at the beginning of FSN, and in any route but HF-T. He hasn't grown as a character, he is still sticking to the same childish fantasies that carried him in the other routes.
Part of the issue with Rin, and Shirou is that both of them treat Sakura like a princess in a cage, with Rin being downright abusive towards her, in an effort to keep her locked away. Both Rin, and Shirou are so focused on what they want for Sakura, that they fail to see Sakura as a person.
Frankly, as HF continued on, I was more, and more worried about whether the corruption would win out, or Rin/Shirou would break her. You actually pointed out the fact that Sakura had no outlet. Part of the reason for that was because Shirou/Rin tried to keep her locked away. You can logically justify it, but no one in that situation would feel good about being left out. And with Rin turning up the tension over, and over again, Sakura breaking was inevitable. It turns out, that Shinji was the final nail in the coffin, but Rin/Shirou are the ones who pushed her into it by refusing to see that she didn't want to just sit in her room, and wait for them to save her.
Shirou in the normal ending is selfish. He is doing what he wants, not what is best for Sakura. Throughout the True Ending, he is reminded over, and over again that he needs to live. He needs to see this process through. Him sacrificing himself, and thinking that is going to solve anything is childish, and he is running away. He tells Sakura to live, but what about him? What about his responsibility?
You brought up your personal issues, where here are mine. My mother was a social worker. She worked mostly with runaway teen girls, and later in schools. My mother had to talk about some of these things with someone, and I was available. I also got to meet some of these kids since she couldn't always afford to send me to daycare. I also had a cousin who was abused by her parents. Through these stories, and personal experiences I can only say that your outlook was far too simplistic.
"The past doesn't define who she is anymore"? That is a very optimistic view of that ending. She is trapped in stasis. Never moving on, just sitting in Shirou's house until she dies.
What those kids need more than anything is good therapy, and a good support network. They don't get the therapy (that we see), but they get the support network in HF-T. The final images for both endings says so much. In HF-N, the ending is a vague image of cherry blossoms, probably from Shirou's home. An image that could have come at any point, as long as the cherry blossoms were blooming. In HF-T, the ending shows four people who never would have been together if not for their experiences, and sacrifices. They are walking forward, but with a bit of a side glance toward each other.
It is so telling that we do not even see an image of Sakura, or even Rin in HF-N. For all that ending tells us, they look exactly the same as they did during the 5th War. In HF-T, we see them just a bit more grown up. And through their actions in that ending, we see they are moving forward with their lives. And in the end, that makes it the perfect ending.