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[Long-Schall] Jackson Administration (1965-1969) Neoprogressivism
2024.05.14 07:35 duckowucko [Long-Schall] Jackson Administration (1965-1969) Neoprogressivism
![[Long-Schall] Jackson Administration (1965-1969) Neoprogressivism](https://a.thumbs.redditmedia.com/DQJNWfkYYbdH4YoADAp8APpIhO92DgtKrP7JX6nxHQ8.jpg "[Long-Schall] Jackson Administration (1965-1969) Neoprogressivism") | President Henry Martin “Scoop” Jackson41st President of the United StatesVice President Nellie Stone Johnson Secretary of State: Claude Pepper Secretary of the Treasury: Maurine Neuberger Secretary of Defense: William Winter Attorney General: John Tower Secretary of the Navy: Arleigh Burke Secretary of the Interior: Edmund Muskie Secretary of Agriculture: Hubert Humphrey Secretary of Commerce: Asa Randolph Secretary of Labor: Leonard Woodcock Secretary of Education: Jane Jacobs Secretary of Health & Welfare: John Gardner (Since March 1965) Speaker of the House: Charles Halleck (Republican, 1965-1967)/Adam Powell Jr (Labor, 1967-) Pro Tempore: Lyndon Johnson (Labor) 1964 Election ResultsPresidentialLiberal candidate John Kennedy receives 115 electoral votes Margaret Smith received 38.57% of the vote John Kennedy received 20% of the vote Henry Jackson received 41.43% of the vote Jackson defied poll numbers While polling has consistently showed the election as a close race, almost all polls had the incumbent President, Margaret Smith, winning by 1 or 2 points up until the election. The last poll conducted on October 28th had Smith leading by 1 point, and Kennedy far behind both major candidates. Some have already begun to blame the Liberal Party and Kennedy for stealing moderate voters from another Republican victory. Regardless, The ever-ambitious Senator Scoop Jackson will enter the White House come January 20th. House Results https://preview.redd.it/4dtgc225tb0d1.jpg?width=901&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=410de5d3b1c2ead23e2dad5fb9c631c0d75af427 House Results After Liberal Dissolution (1965) https://preview.redd.it/ijk7i056tb0d1.jpg?width=901&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7dbd561cb43631563b3f0b3038c920fbd0482b2c
https://preview.redd.it/uox6o819tb0d1.jpg?width=901&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8e7b69257f8034a2d54b2f6d65941fb6a0b216ad Senate Results After Liberal Dissolution (1965) https://preview.redd.it/cela6go9tb0d1.jpg?width=901&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=adacec99aee191262505a313e933c01d536fe5e0
First 100 DaysRevenue Act of 1965The Revenue Act of 1965 would take a more progressive approach to taxation, increasing income taxes up to 7% in the highest tax bracket; all while lowering income taxes down by 4% for lower income households. The Act would also increase the Social Security Tax to 8%. House voted 228-207 Senate voted 52-48 Mass Transit Tax Act of 1965 The second Mass Transit Tax Act would lower short range rail and air transport by an average of 5%, while increasing long range rail and air transport by an average of 2%. International flight tickets would be increased as well, by an average of 6%. House voted 236-199 Senate voted 62-38 Minimum Wage Act of 1965 The long-standing federal Minimum Wage of $0.80/hour has been around since 1949, with no increase on the federal side of things. President Jackson and other Laborites were able to pull their weight and increase the federally-mandated minimum wage to $1.30/hour. Although the Labor Party advocated for a higher hourly wage, others in Congress feared a wage any higher would result in another economic panic following the near-collapse of the National Debt Ceiling a few years prior. House voted 227-208 Senate voted 52-48 Department of Health Foundation Act of 1965 Founded the Department of Health and Welfare to help administer and regulate various healthcare practices and the distribution of Social Security, medical tax breaks, and more. Though indirectly, Congress soon changes the Executive budget to cut the Department of the Interior's funding by 40%; most of that money going into the new Department of Health and Welfare. House voted 249-186 Senate voted 64-36 National Environmental and Water Policy Act of 1965 (NEWPA) Championed heavily by the President and young members of the Labor Party in Congress like Edmund Muskie, NEWPA places greater regulations and laws into place regarding water safety and treatment, water pollution, trash allocation, dump sites, and recycling; unseen since the progressive era of the early 1900s. These regulations are expected to greatly improve the environmental state of decay for decades to come. House voted 221-214 Senate voted 54-46 Death of former President, Theodore F. Green: May 19, 1966This morning, former President Theodore Francis Green passed away in his Rhode Island home at the age of 98, marking the oldest President at the time of his death. Green was a member of the Democratic Party and briefly the Anti-Fascist Alliance, taking charge from his previous position as Secretary of State after the sudden assassinations of sitting President Earl Browder and Vice President Upton Sinclair. President Green helped uncover the “Business Plot” orchestrated in part by J.P. Morgan Jr. and Prescott Sheldon Bush Sr, the latter being the father of sitting Texas Congressman George Bush.President Theodore F. Green led us through the horrors of the second world war after the sudden attack on Pearl Harbor, resigning his post and organizing a special election the year following the conclusion of the war itself. He was instrumental in the foundation of the United Nations and eventual foundation of both NATO and EATO two Presidents later. He was, and still remains a national hero in our hearts. President Henry Jackson, among former Presidents and dignitaries are expected to show up for his public funeral in Providence, Rhode Island. The public has been allowed to pay their respects at his grave site before his proper burial et to take place from May 19 at 9:00 AM to May 20 at 9:00 AM. Foreign Policy Ventures prior to the 1966 MidtermsEmbargo Act of 1965Supported already by the majority of the country, Scoop Jackson directed Congress to pass a full embargo of all raw and manufactured Cuban goods on entering the United States through any port or checkpoint. House voted 313-122 Senate voted 76-24 With the law being signed by the President in August that year, he would make a speech in Miami celebrating the passage of the act, glorifying its protections of American, anti-communist goods. Scoop would face some backlash over his anti-communist posturing, as the Labor Party has a small (but noticeable) sect of Communists in their ranks. The Saigon Summit In July of 1965, after riots against the French government in Saigon, and the breakout of a guerrilla war in French Cambodia, a summit was called in Saigon to determine the future of the city. President Jackson, President Ho Chi Minh, and President Charles de Gaulle met within the French administrative building to discuss the recent riots in the city and future between Saigon and Vietnam. Although much of Vietnam was granted total independence from French rule in 1950, French Saigon remained a thorn in Vietnam's side. France wished to keep as much of its dying empire as possible, and no one would fight harder at that than Charles de Gaulle himself. President Jackson wished to keep the peace and eventually coerce Vietnam into rejoining EATO. Talks were messy at times, as yelling could be heard from the chambers the talks were being held in, but the three would come to an agreement. Saigon would be administered by a joint Vietnamese-French government, and policing and law would gradually transition to local and Vietnamese systems. In return, Vietnam would promise to not get itself involved in the Cambodian guerilla war. 1966 MidtermsHouse Resultshttps://preview.redd.it/ntikw0octb0d1.png?width=901&format=png&auto=webp&s=942f182fe781579a9b8ddb47885e93f8223d35a4 7 Third Party/Independents
https://preview.redd.it/lr9x96hxtb0d1.png?width=901&format=png&auto=webp&s=8cd151e176c91a0dab249c04d53057b87fc1d66e 2 Independents
Invasion of SaigonIn December 1966, a clash between Vietnamese and French police during a riot led the Vietnamese side of the Saigon Transitional Government to call on Vietnamese military aid. Within hours, the Republic of Vietnam marched into the jointly occupied city. Rumors immediately began amassing that the Saigon police force worked with the Vietnamese government in order to cease Saigon before the transitional period was up. Although these rumors were just that, President Jackson was surely worried when the news hit him the next morning; alongside the French Ambassador asking for an audience with the President.French Ambassador Hervé Alphand would share with Scoop three things:
The French response was quick, with France officially leaving both NATO and EATO on December 18, 1966. The French declaration of war and further campaign into Vietnam began on the 20th. With naval and air landings concentrated around Rach Gia, Can Tho, My Tho, Saigon, and Vung Tau, the Second Indochina War began. Although Australia would provide weapon assistance, the other nations within both NATO and EATO held their breath on what to do. France had left the two most powerful military and economic alliances in the world, and President Jackson could not be more angry. Glasgow Conference of 1967With the war having gone on for nearly three months, and French military forces having begun to get bogged down by the Vietnamese harsh tactics; Can Tho remained the only major French-held territory in the young Republic. And although Vietnamese war tactics were questionable at best; much of the world was united in believing the French declaration of war was not entirely justifiable; with President Scoop Jackson and General Secretary Leonid Brezhnev at the forefront of organizing peace efforts within and without the UN. Although the United Nations have begun investigations into both the Vietnamese invasion of Saigon and the French declaration of war, they both had gotten bogged down by the surrounding war effort.It was agreed upon by several major powers to meet in Glasgow with French and Vietnamese delegates to discuss an armistice. The United States, United Kingdom, Soviet Union, and the People’s Republic of China agreed to enforce the following terms:
The Better Society PlanPlans drawn up between Pro Tempore Lyndon Johnson, Representative Claude Pepper, and Speaker Adam Powell Jr. would be taken to the President's desk following the first relatively calm year in the administration's history. Although much of the work on marketing the plan would be placed on Scoop himself; Johnson, Pepper, and Powell would act as the main sponsors of each piece in Congress. What would become the beginnings of the “Better Society Plan” would officially pass both houses of Congress throughout mid 1968.Cheap Food and Housing Act of 1968 A large bill authored primarily by Speaker Adam Powell Jr. and Secretary Hubert Humphrey; the Cheap Food and Housing Act would cover extensive social programs. Although, with weak support in Congress, many Republicans were able to push to soften these programs and add their own agendas on top of them. The final contents of this massive bill were as follows:
Senate voted 53-47 Medical Bill Reduction Act of 1968 This bill was authored by Representative Claude Pepper and Secretary John Gardner in order to fundamentally reduce medical expenses for the youth, elderly, and medically unable. The bill however was weakened significantly by the Republicans in Congress, only allowing for those receiving Social Security benefits to have reduced medical expenses paid for partially by the Department of Health and Welfare; no matter if the recipient is signed on with private insurance or the Public Option. House voted 220-215 Senate voted 53-47 Apollo 8: Americans on the Moon in November 1968!Thanks to streamlined efforts by Presidents Dwight Eisenhower and Margaret Smith the past 11 years, NASA and furthermore America were able to place the first men on the moon on November 12, 1967. In a speech made on national television that night in the hour following the conclusion of the live coverage of the moon landing, Scoop Jackson would put much of his thanks on the “Greatest mind our nation has ever had,” referring to Dr. J. Robert Oppenheimer. Oppenheimer, since 1961, has been placed in a secondary charge of the Apollo missions and a potential moon landing until his resignation in January 1967 and death the following month. Dr. Oppenheimer's expertise in theory and former President Smith's dedication for space exploration are likely candidates as to the victory America achieved that night.State of Asia in 1968 https://preview.redd.it/yt26bkb6ub0d1.png?width=595&format=png&auto=webp&s=4f8891be4a444d56ea6f7c252ded667383234fdd The United Nations has concluded their investigation into the potential legality and coercion in the events leading up to the invasion of Saigon. “While France has made compelling arguments for the contrary, regarding available documents and other pieces of evidence, the Vietnamese military occupation of Saigon was not a result of coercion, manipulation, embezzlement, bribery, or corruption within the Republic of Vietnam. The invitation of Vietnamese armed forces into the territory limits was done by the legal Vietnamese co-government of said territory, and therefore, is deemed a semi-legal occupation of the city. The United Nations upholds the results of the Glasgow Conference.” Gearing up for Reelection: A look at Potential ChallengersNotable Republicans that have declared candidacyFormer Vice President, Richard Nixon https://preview.redd.it/s64vumfxub0d1.jpg?width=3739&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1bff3f91005f9ed3559abb1334db75eac181ae75 Richard Nixon is back at it with his 4th attempt at a Presidential run, and if he wins the nomination or is selected as a running mate, 3rd attempt on a Presidential ticket. He is generally a moderate, but is definitely the wildcard. Despite his past of losing elections, he is somehow the safest, and perhaps most dangerous, to the Jackson administration. Governor Ronald Reagan https://preview.redd.it/bjb887w4vb0d1.jpg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7cdd34a9a2caf74d4b7b2a18233bc141bc975e20 The Governor of California has perhaps one of the most charismatic voices in the nation, and is definitely a threat should he receive the Republican nomination. While he is charismatic, he is also the most Conservative of the major players for the Republican nomination. Reagan has instituted a mix of conservative and liberal policy as Governor of California, but has spouted rhetoric like all the former dixiecrats; just without blatant racism. Scoop believes Reagan is not only a credible threat to his Presidency, but also a threat to minority groups nationwide. “Draft Jack Kennedy” and “Draft Bobby Kennedy” https://preview.redd.it/s601w5x9vb0d1.jpg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5b99970534ba3ec17d1e7147231d0b5b45ad22e3 Despite neither Kennedy having decided to throw their hat in the ring this year, 1960 and 1964 Presidential candidate John Kennedy has received some support among anti-nixon moderates for the head of the ticket later this year. He has an air of charisma around him, much like his fellow Republican Ronald Reagan, but Kennedy has only commented on the matter stating he is “far too tired” for 3 Presidential runs in a row. The Senator's health is seemingly beginning to fail, as well. Despite the unlikeliness of the matter, Jackson is prepared to deal with Jack Kennedy again if he wins a draft. Opposed to his older brother, Governor Robert Kennedy has remained Non-Partisan since the fall of the Liberal Party 3 years prior. Bobby has had moderate support from both parties since the beginning of his governorship in 1963. Despite this, and probably with wishes to go against one of his brothers, Bobby Kennedy has denied to run or entertain a draft movement in his name. Scoop has declared Bobby to be of little threat. Other potential challengers Senator Russel Long https://preview.redd.it/vazyz7xevb0d1.jpg?width=223&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4693e838065dc8a3f31cf21f5d3cb8bece24dfc6 The long-serving Senator and son of former President Huey Long has walked the line of conservative, liberal, and progressive support throughout his career. In recent years, he has become more supportive of progressive social policies, and definitely leans economically toward Labor; but his reach across rural southerners matches a more populist approach. Long has already declared his independent candidacy for President. If Nixon isn't one, Long is certainly the most dangerous wildcard if he plays his hand right. Scoop will closely watch him. View Poll |
2024.05.14 07:35 Fabulous_Wing2750 Caught my babydaddy having affair with his first cousin
I am F 26. I am a Single Parent since nabuntis. although during the time na buntis ako, di pa kami officially hiwalay (but hindi kami kasal) Our parents agreed na magpakasal kami pero di ako pumayag kasi during the time na nagbubuntis ako, aware akong may mali 💀kaya nag reason out nalang ako na tsaka nalang ang kasal after manganak. Di alam ng family ko na hindi ako tinatrato ng tama ng partner ko. Pinagtakpan ko sya until napansin na ng parents ko na there's something wrong at pinapabayaan niya ko all through out my pregnancy. Kahit nung moment na nanganak ako, he wasn't there. Pumunta lang sya dun nung nakapanganak na ko.
Nung nanganak na ko, wala pang 1 week, nagrereklamo siya sa nanay ko na bakit daw lagi akong tulog at hindi ako kumikilos. Pinaglalaba nya pa ako. When he can do it naman dahil wala naman syang work at wala naman siya ginagawa kundi mag adik sa online games and hello??? I gave birth. Sariwa pa ang tahi at dumadaan pa sa PPD dahil sa pagkakaroon ng iresponsableng partner. Inapelyido ko pa sakanya yung anak ko kasi malaki ang pag asa ko na magbabago siya dahil sa baby. pero i was wrong. wala pa 1 month baby namin naghiwalay na kami.. reasons are irresponsible siya, ayaw magwork mas inuuna ang online games.. at ang pinaka malala third party 💀 anyway so ayun, nakipaghiwalay ako pero umaasa ako na aayusin nya. after 2 months nagmakaawa ako sakanya na ayusin namin yung family.. pero sabi niya, para nalang daw sa bata. lagi sya nagbibigay ng mixed signals. iba iba statements nya sakin. since naghiwalay kami hindi sya nagsusustento, if magbihay man bilang lang sa daliri ko. Binyag ng bata, kahit magulo that time dahil kahit family namin nadadamay sa gulo... still, i invited him and his family to attend my daughter's baptism.. (gastos ko at ng fam ko) but they didn't attend. Since nanganak ako up to 3 months baby ko, family ko ang sumuporta sa needs ng anak ko. Pero nung kaya ko na i did everything para mabuhay ko ang baby ko dahil nahihiya ako sa parents ko na ipa-kargo yung anak ko.
Hindi ako nanghihingi ng tulong sakanya kasi kapag may maayos akong kita hindi talaga ko nanghihingi dahil alam ko naman na wala siyang work. Nakaipon ako ng pera that time dahil pandemic saktong malakas ang food deliveries at kung ano ano din ang binenta ko. Fast forward, first birthday ng baby ko (i'm so proud dahil galing lahat sa bulsa ko ang ginastos ko dun) 🥹 I invited him and his family. Umattend naman sila then after that mejo nagkasundo, nagpunta kami sakanila to celebrate Christmas. Hanggang sa napagkasunduan namin na i-try ulit.. kaso after 5 months, it didn't really work out.
the reason why? alam kong niloloko nya ko at pinipilit nya lang na pakisamahan ako dahil gusto ng parents nya na nasa puder nila yung anak ko (since nagiisang apo) pero sobra sobrang depression yung nararanasan ko sa araw araw na nandun ako. Umalis kami ng anak ko pero maayos naman yung pag alis ko.
Hanggang sa yung hinala ko, unti unting napapatunayan dahil ang daming nagsasabi at nagsusumbong sakin.. he's having an affair with his cousin. FIRST COUSIN 💀 ang tagal nya pinapamukha sakin na baliw ako na pinagiisipan ko sila ng ganun at masyado daw madumi ang utak ko. If hindi totoo bakit naging issue yun dun sa lugar nila? Honestly ang tagal ko kineep sa sarili ko yun. Wala akong pinagsumbungan at pinagsabihan kundi siyang partner ko lang kahit sobrang bigat sa loob ko. kasi inisip ko din na baka isipin ng ibang tao na baliw ako para magisip ng ganung bagay. Dahil yun din ang palagi nya pinapamukha sakin, pero grabe talaga ano? REALLY TIME IS THE ULTIMATE TRUTH TELLER.
Pinatawad ko siya at pinatawad ko din ang sarili ko kung bakit hinayaan kong durugin nya ako ng ganun lang. Sobrang hirap at grabe yung pinagdaanan kong yun kasi nung una nilaban ko talaga. nilaban ko talaga sya sa lahat, everytime papatawarin ko sya halos magalit na sakin lahat ng kaibigan at pamilya ko kasi gusto ko talaga ilaban dahil ayoko magkaroon ng broken family ang anak ko pero thankful ako dahil natanggap ko din na hindi para samin ang buong pamilya, salamat kay God dahil binigyan nya ako ng strength and courage para malagpasan yun.
MAY PART 2 PA TO. AT DUN PAPASOK ANG ABOUT LEGALITIES NA KATANUNGAN KO.
sorry if magulo kwento ko... bawi ako sa part 2 😅
submitted by Fabulous_Wing2750 to AskPhilippines [link] [comments]
Nung nanganak na ko, wala pang 1 week, nagrereklamo siya sa nanay ko na bakit daw lagi akong tulog at hindi ako kumikilos. Pinaglalaba nya pa ako. When he can do it naman dahil wala naman syang work at wala naman siya ginagawa kundi mag adik sa online games and hello??? I gave birth. Sariwa pa ang tahi at dumadaan pa sa PPD dahil sa pagkakaroon ng iresponsableng partner. Inapelyido ko pa sakanya yung anak ko kasi malaki ang pag asa ko na magbabago siya dahil sa baby. pero i was wrong. wala pa 1 month baby namin naghiwalay na kami.. reasons are irresponsible siya, ayaw magwork mas inuuna ang online games.. at ang pinaka malala third party 💀 anyway so ayun, nakipaghiwalay ako pero umaasa ako na aayusin nya. after 2 months nagmakaawa ako sakanya na ayusin namin yung family.. pero sabi niya, para nalang daw sa bata. lagi sya nagbibigay ng mixed signals. iba iba statements nya sakin. since naghiwalay kami hindi sya nagsusustento, if magbihay man bilang lang sa daliri ko. Binyag ng bata, kahit magulo that time dahil kahit family namin nadadamay sa gulo... still, i invited him and his family to attend my daughter's baptism.. (gastos ko at ng fam ko) but they didn't attend. Since nanganak ako up to 3 months baby ko, family ko ang sumuporta sa needs ng anak ko. Pero nung kaya ko na i did everything para mabuhay ko ang baby ko dahil nahihiya ako sa parents ko na ipa-kargo yung anak ko.
Hindi ako nanghihingi ng tulong sakanya kasi kapag may maayos akong kita hindi talaga ko nanghihingi dahil alam ko naman na wala siyang work. Nakaipon ako ng pera that time dahil pandemic saktong malakas ang food deliveries at kung ano ano din ang binenta ko. Fast forward, first birthday ng baby ko (i'm so proud dahil galing lahat sa bulsa ko ang ginastos ko dun) 🥹 I invited him and his family. Umattend naman sila then after that mejo nagkasundo, nagpunta kami sakanila to celebrate Christmas. Hanggang sa napagkasunduan namin na i-try ulit.. kaso after 5 months, it didn't really work out.
the reason why? alam kong niloloko nya ko at pinipilit nya lang na pakisamahan ako dahil gusto ng parents nya na nasa puder nila yung anak ko (since nagiisang apo) pero sobra sobrang depression yung nararanasan ko sa araw araw na nandun ako. Umalis kami ng anak ko pero maayos naman yung pag alis ko.
Hanggang sa yung hinala ko, unti unting napapatunayan dahil ang daming nagsasabi at nagsusumbong sakin.. he's having an affair with his cousin. FIRST COUSIN 💀 ang tagal nya pinapamukha sakin na baliw ako na pinagiisipan ko sila ng ganun at masyado daw madumi ang utak ko. If hindi totoo bakit naging issue yun dun sa lugar nila? Honestly ang tagal ko kineep sa sarili ko yun. Wala akong pinagsumbungan at pinagsabihan kundi siyang partner ko lang kahit sobrang bigat sa loob ko. kasi inisip ko din na baka isipin ng ibang tao na baliw ako para magisip ng ganung bagay. Dahil yun din ang palagi nya pinapamukha sakin, pero grabe talaga ano? REALLY TIME IS THE ULTIMATE TRUTH TELLER.
Pinatawad ko siya at pinatawad ko din ang sarili ko kung bakit hinayaan kong durugin nya ako ng ganun lang. Sobrang hirap at grabe yung pinagdaanan kong yun kasi nung una nilaban ko talaga. nilaban ko talaga sya sa lahat, everytime papatawarin ko sya halos magalit na sakin lahat ng kaibigan at pamilya ko kasi gusto ko talaga ilaban dahil ayoko magkaroon ng broken family ang anak ko pero thankful ako dahil natanggap ko din na hindi para samin ang buong pamilya, salamat kay God dahil binigyan nya ako ng strength and courage para malagpasan yun.
MAY PART 2 PA TO. AT DUN PAPASOK ANG ABOUT LEGALITIES NA KATANUNGAN KO.
sorry if magulo kwento ko... bawi ako sa part 2 😅
2024.05.14 07:34 Infamous-Interest52 Is it safe for us to do marijuana?
Hi!
I’m 19 years old, i have mild spastic dipelgia cerebral palsy. I’m a level 2 on the GMFSC
My friends are planning me a birthday party for me turning 19. Lots of people are planning on bringing weed and alcohol. They have told me it’s mostly Sativa.
I’ve had weed once or twice. I’m just wondering, i know the effects of weed on young brains isn’t good, do these risks increase with cerebral palsy? since we already have brain damage?
are any of you into weed? what’s it been like for you?
thanks so much! feel free to share any experiences
submitted by Infamous-Interest52 to CerebralPalsy [link] [comments]
I’m 19 years old, i have mild spastic dipelgia cerebral palsy. I’m a level 2 on the GMFSC
My friends are planning me a birthday party for me turning 19. Lots of people are planning on bringing weed and alcohol. They have told me it’s mostly Sativa.
I’ve had weed once or twice. I’m just wondering, i know the effects of weed on young brains isn’t good, do these risks increase with cerebral palsy? since we already have brain damage?
are any of you into weed? what’s it been like for you?
thanks so much! feel free to share any experiences
2024.05.14 07:30 OrangeCatActivites AIW for thinking about distancing my friend after hostility during international travel?
I am sorry for ahead of time that this is long but I need to give context to everything. Also, this will probably sound like 12 year old drama because that’s what it feels like. Everyone in this story is 27F.
I have a HS friend I asked to take a trip w me to another country. It was going to be just us to but I invited another HS friend because I tend to forget to invite her places.
The first HS friend lives in San francisco (i will call her SF friend) and the other HS friend lives in San Diego (SD friend); I moved back to Los Angeles from Seattle last year.
So since I’ve moved back I have obviously been hanging out with my SD friend more and a couple other childhood friends who also live nearby (one is my roommate). Important for later.
SF & SD friend have been planning to go to korea for 8 months now and we finally make it after 13hour flight. We are supposed to be here for 10 days. On the first day, around midday after going to museums SD friend and I notice a shift in SF friends demeanor but think its just tiredness/jetlag. SF friend stays like this throughout the entire day with bland responses, blank stares and looks of disgust when being asked a question. Again, I dont read into it since I asked her more than 3 times if shes OK and she says shes fine. We get back to the airbnb, they both take naps and around 8ish pm i try to wake them up so we can go get dinner w my husband and his friends (also in korea). SF friend immediately wakes up and is like i dont want to go im not hungry and said it with attitude so i was like ok can we still go though because im hungry. She says yes. We go, SF friend is still in a bad mood and when we leave I ask SD friend if we can go to a bar. She says yes but we need to drop off SF friend at the airbnb because shes sick. While SD friend is in the bathroom, i ask SF friend if she still feels sick and she goes no I am not sick at all Im just upset about a comment SD friend made; i ask what was the comment but she refuses to tell me. I was like well ok then lets walk you back; we all start to walk back and then SF friend is like you know what im just going to walk around the city by myself and storms off.
SD friend and I go to the bar and are confused af. After about 30 mins SF friend comes in and says shes upset bc SD friend was describing a tattoo she has: the four elements to represent me, SD, and the other two childhood friends bc we all have different zodiac signs of each element. It was a joke though bc she has had this tattoo before us four got close and its just a running joke. Then SF friend goes on to say shes an afterthought bc i didnt invite her to my bday trip (its not my bday trip its my childhood friends bday trip, we happen to share a birthday a week apart. She planned i just asked if we can sing hbd to me to lmao).
I tried to explain my side But she kept saying “that’s not the point it’s the way the story was conveyed to me” over and over again. I was annoyed but apologized anyway. I did ask if she could communicate her feelings though instead of holding them in all day and she was reluctant but agreed.
Now the following day was fine until the nighttime where i felt the mood shift again. Thought she was tired but i know she is upset now because the morning after yesterday, shes still in a bad mood. All day she is acting the same way we first got here. Im going to talk to her when we get to the other airbnb in busan and i am going to try to be compassionate and understanding but I am really struggling here. I don know how she will react and i dont want it another round of the first night.
She doesn’t invite me to any of her parties, outing or festivals in SF, but is getting upset because I am not? She never came to visit me when I lived in WA but SD friend and childhood friends did. She never responds to anything in the GC even if it is about planning a festival together. I dont understand where the “feeling left out” is coming from. She is super defensive and stubborn so I dont feel like it is worth it to explain again that shes not being fair.
I just want to know would I be wrong to distance myself from her after this trip? We’ve been longtime friends but I feel like shes playing into this victim mentality where shes created a narrative that we are intentionally leaving her out.
submitted by OrangeCatActivites to amiwrong [link] [comments]
I have a HS friend I asked to take a trip w me to another country. It was going to be just us to but I invited another HS friend because I tend to forget to invite her places.
The first HS friend lives in San francisco (i will call her SF friend) and the other HS friend lives in San Diego (SD friend); I moved back to Los Angeles from Seattle last year.
So since I’ve moved back I have obviously been hanging out with my SD friend more and a couple other childhood friends who also live nearby (one is my roommate). Important for later.
SF & SD friend have been planning to go to korea for 8 months now and we finally make it after 13hour flight. We are supposed to be here for 10 days. On the first day, around midday after going to museums SD friend and I notice a shift in SF friends demeanor but think its just tiredness/jetlag. SF friend stays like this throughout the entire day with bland responses, blank stares and looks of disgust when being asked a question. Again, I dont read into it since I asked her more than 3 times if shes OK and she says shes fine. We get back to the airbnb, they both take naps and around 8ish pm i try to wake them up so we can go get dinner w my husband and his friends (also in korea). SF friend immediately wakes up and is like i dont want to go im not hungry and said it with attitude so i was like ok can we still go though because im hungry. She says yes. We go, SF friend is still in a bad mood and when we leave I ask SD friend if we can go to a bar. She says yes but we need to drop off SF friend at the airbnb because shes sick. While SD friend is in the bathroom, i ask SF friend if she still feels sick and she goes no I am not sick at all Im just upset about a comment SD friend made; i ask what was the comment but she refuses to tell me. I was like well ok then lets walk you back; we all start to walk back and then SF friend is like you know what im just going to walk around the city by myself and storms off.
SD friend and I go to the bar and are confused af. After about 30 mins SF friend comes in and says shes upset bc SD friend was describing a tattoo she has: the four elements to represent me, SD, and the other two childhood friends bc we all have different zodiac signs of each element. It was a joke though bc she has had this tattoo before us four got close and its just a running joke. Then SF friend goes on to say shes an afterthought bc i didnt invite her to my bday trip (its not my bday trip its my childhood friends bday trip, we happen to share a birthday a week apart. She planned i just asked if we can sing hbd to me to lmao).
I tried to explain my side But she kept saying “that’s not the point it’s the way the story was conveyed to me” over and over again. I was annoyed but apologized anyway. I did ask if she could communicate her feelings though instead of holding them in all day and she was reluctant but agreed.
Now the following day was fine until the nighttime where i felt the mood shift again. Thought she was tired but i know she is upset now because the morning after yesterday, shes still in a bad mood. All day she is acting the same way we first got here. Im going to talk to her when we get to the other airbnb in busan and i am going to try to be compassionate and understanding but I am really struggling here. I don know how she will react and i dont want it another round of the first night.
She doesn’t invite me to any of her parties, outing or festivals in SF, but is getting upset because I am not? She never came to visit me when I lived in WA but SD friend and childhood friends did. She never responds to anything in the GC even if it is about planning a festival together. I dont understand where the “feeling left out” is coming from. She is super defensive and stubborn so I dont feel like it is worth it to explain again that shes not being fair.
I just want to know would I be wrong to distance myself from her after this trip? We’ve been longtime friends but I feel like shes playing into this victim mentality where shes created a narrative that we are intentionally leaving her out.
2024.05.14 07:17 Ok_Bench_689 AIBU gluten free cake birthday cake?
I ask a friend to make a birthday cake for my son. We have a big party. My mum is gluten intolerant and has gone to my friend and told her to make the cake gluten free but not tell anyone. My friend told me. I fell upset about this becuase most people coming have tried and don't like gluten free. My husband and I will try it but probably won't eat it if there are leftovers. I feel a bit put out. We said we will make a serperate gluten free cake but she wants my sons birthday cake to be gluten free so she can have the same as everyone else (which I understand) We are also getting a whole selection of gluten free party food for her. I wouldn't be bothered if she had just asked me and if I could guarantee a gluten free cake would be nice. What do you think. I need to talk to her
submitted by Ok_Bench_689 to glutenfree [link] [comments]
2024.05.14 06:52 Public_Warning_3523 AITAH for having a child near Mother’s Day and stealing her birthday for her 18 years.
My daughter’s birthday is May 8th. I never tried to make it about me and she never complained. Her childhood was hard. Her father had a mental illness that I did my best to protect her from and then he died unexpectedly when she was fourteen. I had to tell her in the high school guidance office because a first responder had posted it on Facebook and I wanted her to hear it from me first. She also has a brother that is 3 years older than her and a sister that is 2 years older than her.
Every year we celebrate her birthday as close to the date as we can. Some years it’s just a family party with grandparents and close siblings and cousins, other times we invite school friends. It depends on where we are in life and what we can afford.
When she was 8 we went to the crayola factory and both her and I got in free because Mother’s Day and her birthday fell on the same day but they made a huge deal about it being mothers day and I felt like she was forgotten.
When she was 10 my parents took her to New York City like they did for all there grand kids but insisted I came along to celebrate Mother’s Day.
The problem is that every year multiple people bring me gifts on her birthday and wish me a happy Mother’s Day.
This year she turned 18. It was a big deal. I had to work the day of her birthday and then she went away to celebrate with friends on a trip.
So we had a big family party a week later. I got her a cake with a fun lighthearted joke about surviving her childhood. The problem is she also got me a cake with a fun lighthearted joke on it.
I just wanted a day for her. Also her graduation is coming up. Maybe I can do something to make it up to her then.
submitted by Public_Warning_3523 to AITAH [link] [comments]
Every year we celebrate her birthday as close to the date as we can. Some years it’s just a family party with grandparents and close siblings and cousins, other times we invite school friends. It depends on where we are in life and what we can afford.
When she was 8 we went to the crayola factory and both her and I got in free because Mother’s Day and her birthday fell on the same day but they made a huge deal about it being mothers day and I felt like she was forgotten.
When she was 10 my parents took her to New York City like they did for all there grand kids but insisted I came along to celebrate Mother’s Day.
The problem is that every year multiple people bring me gifts on her birthday and wish me a happy Mother’s Day.
This year she turned 18. It was a big deal. I had to work the day of her birthday and then she went away to celebrate with friends on a trip.
So we had a big family party a week later. I got her a cake with a fun lighthearted joke about surviving her childhood. The problem is she also got me a cake with a fun lighthearted joke on it.
I just wanted a day for her. Also her graduation is coming up. Maybe I can do something to make it up to her then.
2024.05.14 06:48 xie-chan AITAH for refusing to hang out with a past friend?
Can I ask for some advice about something? What would you do if you are in my place. my best friend let's call her Ruby. Ruby moved about two years ago now, she was going to come back and visit for graduation week and wanted the friend group to hang out like we used to, when i told her i didn't believe it would be possible she has continued to push for us to all hang out. I finally told her the reason that it would not work out she completely ignored me. Now the reason the friend group hanging like we used to won't work out is because this ex friend of mine who I'll call cici randomly after a school essay I wrote quite talking to me and started to spread rumors about me the essay was supposed to carry so sort of theme that means somthing to us so I wrote mine on how it can feel to be in the middle of a friend group that is arguing and not knowing what to do. I will copy and past the essay below the rest of the story. After I turn the essay in cici somehow gets a hold of it and spins it to sound like I'm attacking her and im bullying her and so for the month of February everyone ignores me which really hurt because I had no idea why as they just on day started to ignore me it also was my birthday that month and I had no one to share it with. After a while lila,Taylor and Sara realize what happened and apologized for what they did and I quite trying to communicate with cici. After I quite reaching out to her and trying to protect a dying fire my mental health improves to a point where not only I noticed but my teachers noticed also. Back to my earlier topic I told ruby that I refuse to hang out with cici because she has been treating me like shit and my parents won't even let me see/talk to her outside a school sanctioned event because at are very last sleep over before she she started to ignore me almost ended with me In the hospital because her brother threatened me with a knife and their dog attacked me because i used self defense to get the knife from her brother. During this sleepover cici's parents were awar of what happened and didn't tell my mom so after that I wasn't allowed back to their house. Even after all that I still tried to keep that friendship alive if not only because I cared for cici but also for ruby. Still despite all these reasons ruby refused to split her time between us and Is no longer coming. AITAH for refusing to hang out with someone who has betrayed my trust and put me in a dangerous situation just because my friend who moved away wants us to hang out together?
Here is the essay
Just because your friends are friends doesn’t mean they will always understand. A few days after spring break in 8th grade my friend Cici started hanging out with a girl that the rest of our friend group doesn’t like because she is mean and rude. So we told her what we thought of this girl and that she could hang out with her but we didn’t want to be near a person like that, however Cici did not listen and kept inviting her to hang out with us. My other friend Sara was starting to get really upset because this girl was calling her names and bullying her. This same girl had also left intentional bruises on my body because I told her I already had a partner in pe. Finally, after months and months of off and on fighting it was the last day of school. Sara had finally had enough of how the girl had treated us and snapped as she listed off all the hateful and violent things that this girl had done to me, Lila, Ruby some of our other friends. The girl then started to ball saying how all of us are liars and cici shouldn'tlisten to us about anything that we say. During this entire situation I stayed quiet and listened to what the others had to say, because I wanted to say something but didn't know what to say to fix the situation.For weeks after that cici and sara refused to talk to each other, until I finally managed to get them to both apologize. Then for a while after that everything seemed good. A new girl who I will call Tyler moved to town and we basically absorbed her into the friend group. Things were going well until about four weeks into our ninth grade year. Sara started to be exceedingly hostile the rude girl Cici had been hanging out with sense last year, Which caused fighting to break out. So then Sara started to distance herself from us to hang out with a guy who i also used to consider a friend i will call him jem. Now the reasonme and jem are no longer friendsis becausehe told my to off myself several times over the course of about two months.So as they are hanging out jem is also constantly flirting with her, so we make a joke that they were dating. This caused sara to explode at everyone in the group chat. When she texted in the group chat she directed all of the texts about it to Cici and when I confessed that it was me who was made and the joke she proceeded to say that it was Cici’s fault and that it “ IS NOT SOMETHING TO JOKE ABOUT!! You know what I think of rumors and dating.” We all replied saying it didn't mean for it to be a big deal and we weren't making fun of her that it was only a joke. Sara proceeded to snap back “If we are in relationships with guys, it's not something to joke about. When other people believe it, then it's too much.” So in response Ruby answered with “You literally would make fun of me and my old boyfriend tim back when we were dating.” Then Lila added, “Yeah you make me feel like crap about me and Carl all the time and guess what you coming after Cici being a jerk to Cici for everything saying that everything that everything the "rude girl" knows and does is because of her. There's also the fact that when you tease and make fun of us we are supposed to deal with it, but when we do it to you we are rude horrible people." Sara’s only response to that was “You guys never said that you weren't ok with it. You just need to tell us, and we will stop. No one ever said anything, so we thought it was ok.” I responded with “who is the we in this situation, because I told people to stop when they crossed a boundary and that one of the only people who never listened or apologized for it was lila. I haven't even taken anybody's side throughout this whole situation” after I say this, Sara goes off again. “I'm done ok. Just leave me out of all this. Be your own friend group. I'll be a singular person, and then I won't have to be a burden to anyone. Sorry I was such a bad friend. Also I don't want any pity.” At this point everyone is annoyed and tired of this situation so Ruby speaks up again telling Sara that she is not the main character and to grow up, and that she started it. After this Sara separates herself from us and as a week turns to two weeks then two weeks turns into a month. Between all of the fighting, homework, sports, and everyday stress I start to become irritable and snappy because no matter how much I try to stay neutral to keep peace, Sara and Cici are always fighting. So one time when the fighting over text picks up again I end up snapping at my family and yelling something at them that everyone would probably be happier if i just died. The next day I tried to act like everything was fine. I ended up making it until PE where I ended up breaking down infront of my teacher and skipping school for the rest of the day in the office crying my eyes out to the guidance counselor. I told her everything that happened and that sometimes when I tell my friends things I don't like or feel comfortable with, they sometimes will forget or ignore what i say. Which always makes me angry or sad because I always take the time to understand and respect my friends boundaries. that's when I realized that just because your friends are friends doesn’t mean they will always understand. Despite that fact I will always respect others boundaries even if they don’t respect mine and I will always remind others of my boundaries or distance myself from them. Just because your friends are friends doesn’t mean they will always understand and just because you can/want to say or do something hurtful doesn’t mean that you should. Know where to darw the line.
submitted by xie-chan to AITAH [link] [comments]
Here is the essay
Just because your friends are friends doesn’t mean they will always understand. A few days after spring break in 8th grade my friend Cici started hanging out with a girl that the rest of our friend group doesn’t like because she is mean and rude. So we told her what we thought of this girl and that she could hang out with her but we didn’t want to be near a person like that, however Cici did not listen and kept inviting her to hang out with us. My other friend Sara was starting to get really upset because this girl was calling her names and bullying her. This same girl had also left intentional bruises on my body because I told her I already had a partner in pe. Finally, after months and months of off and on fighting it was the last day of school. Sara had finally had enough of how the girl had treated us and snapped as she listed off all the hateful and violent things that this girl had done to me, Lila, Ruby some of our other friends. The girl then started to ball saying how all of us are liars and cici shouldn'tlisten to us about anything that we say. During this entire situation I stayed quiet and listened to what the others had to say, because I wanted to say something but didn't know what to say to fix the situation.For weeks after that cici and sara refused to talk to each other, until I finally managed to get them to both apologize. Then for a while after that everything seemed good. A new girl who I will call Tyler moved to town and we basically absorbed her into the friend group. Things were going well until about four weeks into our ninth grade year. Sara started to be exceedingly hostile the rude girl Cici had been hanging out with sense last year, Which caused fighting to break out. So then Sara started to distance herself from us to hang out with a guy who i also used to consider a friend i will call him jem. Now the reasonme and jem are no longer friendsis becausehe told my to off myself several times over the course of about two months.So as they are hanging out jem is also constantly flirting with her, so we make a joke that they were dating. This caused sara to explode at everyone in the group chat. When she texted in the group chat she directed all of the texts about it to Cici and when I confessed that it was me who was made and the joke she proceeded to say that it was Cici’s fault and that it “ IS NOT SOMETHING TO JOKE ABOUT!! You know what I think of rumors and dating.” We all replied saying it didn't mean for it to be a big deal and we weren't making fun of her that it was only a joke. Sara proceeded to snap back “If we are in relationships with guys, it's not something to joke about. When other people believe it, then it's too much.” So in response Ruby answered with “You literally would make fun of me and my old boyfriend tim back when we were dating.” Then Lila added, “Yeah you make me feel like crap about me and Carl all the time and guess what you coming after Cici being a jerk to Cici for everything saying that everything that everything the "rude girl" knows and does is because of her. There's also the fact that when you tease and make fun of us we are supposed to deal with it, but when we do it to you we are rude horrible people." Sara’s only response to that was “You guys never said that you weren't ok with it. You just need to tell us, and we will stop. No one ever said anything, so we thought it was ok.” I responded with “who is the we in this situation, because I told people to stop when they crossed a boundary and that one of the only people who never listened or apologized for it was lila. I haven't even taken anybody's side throughout this whole situation” after I say this, Sara goes off again. “I'm done ok. Just leave me out of all this. Be your own friend group. I'll be a singular person, and then I won't have to be a burden to anyone. Sorry I was such a bad friend. Also I don't want any pity.” At this point everyone is annoyed and tired of this situation so Ruby speaks up again telling Sara that she is not the main character and to grow up, and that she started it. After this Sara separates herself from us and as a week turns to two weeks then two weeks turns into a month. Between all of the fighting, homework, sports, and everyday stress I start to become irritable and snappy because no matter how much I try to stay neutral to keep peace, Sara and Cici are always fighting. So one time when the fighting over text picks up again I end up snapping at my family and yelling something at them that everyone would probably be happier if i just died. The next day I tried to act like everything was fine. I ended up making it until PE where I ended up breaking down infront of my teacher and skipping school for the rest of the day in the office crying my eyes out to the guidance counselor. I told her everything that happened and that sometimes when I tell my friends things I don't like or feel comfortable with, they sometimes will forget or ignore what i say. Which always makes me angry or sad because I always take the time to understand and respect my friends boundaries. that's when I realized that just because your friends are friends doesn’t mean they will always understand. Despite that fact I will always respect others boundaries even if they don’t respect mine and I will always remind others of my boundaries or distance myself from them. Just because your friends are friends doesn’t mean they will always understand and just because you can/want to say or do something hurtful doesn’t mean that you should. Know where to darw the line.
2024.05.14 06:31 Anenome5 Society without a State
https://mises.org/mises-daily/society-without-state
In attempting to outline how a “society without a state” — that is, an anarchist society — might function successfully, I would first like to defuse two common but mistaken criticisms of this approach. First, is the argument that in providing for such defense or protection services as courts, police, or even law itself, I am simply smuggling the state back into society in another form, and that therefore the system I am both analyzing and advocating is not “really” anarchism. This sort of criticism can only involve us in an endless and arid dispute over semantics. Let me say from the beginning that I define the state as that institution which possesses one or both (almost always both) of the following properties: (1) it acquires its income by the physical coercion known as “taxation”; and (2) it asserts and usually obtains a coerced monopoly of the provision of defense service (police and courts) over a given territorial area. An institution not possessing either of these properties is not and cannot be, in accordance with my definition, a state. On the other hand, I define anarchist society as one where there is no legal possibility for coercive aggression against the person or property of an individual. Anarchists oppose the state because it has its very being in such aggression, namely, the expropriation of private property through taxation, the coercive exclusion of other providers of defense service from its territory, and all of the other depredations and coercions that are built upon these twin foci of invasions of individual rights.
Nor is our definition of the state arbitrary, for these two characteristics have been possessed by what is generally acknowledged to be states throughout recorded history. The state, by its use of physical coercion, has arrogated to itself a compulsory monopoly of defense services over its territorial jurisdiction. But it is certainly conceptually possible for such services to be supplied by private, non-state institutions, and indeed such services have historically been supplied by other organizations than the state. To be opposed to the state is then not necessarily to be opposed to services that have often been linked with it; to be opposed to the state does not necessarily imply that we must be opposed to police protection, courts, arbitration, the minting of money, postal service, or roads and highways. Some anarchists have indeed been opposed to police and to all physical coercion in defense of person and property, but this is not inherent in and is fundamentally irrelevant to the anarchist position, which is precisely marked by opposition to all physical coercion invasive of, or aggressing against, person and property.
The crucial role of taxation may be seen in the fact that the state is the only institution or organization in society which regularly and systematically acquires its income through the use of physical coercion. All other individuals or organizations acquire their income voluntarily, either (1) through the voluntary sale of goods and services to consumers on the market, or (2) through voluntary gifts or donations by members or other donors. If I cease or refrain from purchasing Wheaties on the market, the Wheaties producers do not come after me with a gun or the threat of imprisonment to force me to purchase; if I fail to join the American Philosophical Association, the association may not force me to join or prevent me from giving up my membership. Only the state can do so; only the state can confiscate my property or put me in jail if I do not pay its tax tribute. Therefore, only the state regularly exists and has its very being by means of coercive depredations on private property.
Neither is it legitimate to challenge this sort of analysis by claiming that in some other sense, the purchase of Wheaties or membership in the APA is in some way “coercive.” Anyone who is still unhappy with this use of the term “coercion” can simply eliminate the word from this discussion and substitute for it “physical violence or the threat thereof,” with the only loss being in literary style rather than in the substance of the argument. What anarchism proposes to do, then, is to abolish the state, that is, to abolish the regularized institution of aggressive coercion.
It need hardly be added that the state habitually builds upon its coercive source of income by adding a host of other aggressions upon society, ranging from economic controls to the prohibition of pornography to the compelling of religious observance to the mass murder of civilians in organized warfare. In short, the state, in the words of Albert Jay Nock, “claims and exercises a monopoly of crime” over its territorial area.
The second criticism I would like to defuse before beginning the main body of the paper is the common charge that anarchists “assume that all people are good” and that without the state no crime would be committed. In short, that anarchism assumes that with the abolition of the state a New Anarchist Man will emerge, cooperative, humane, and benevolent, so that no problem of crime will then plague the society. I confess that I do not understand the basis for this charge. Whatever other schools of anarchism profess — and I do not believe that they are open to the charge — I certainly do not adopt this view. I assume with most observers that mankind is a mixture of good and evil, of cooperative and criminal tendencies. In my view, the anarchist society is one which maximizes the tendencies for the good and the cooperative, while it minimizes both the opportunity and the moral legitimacy of the evil and the criminal. If the anarchist view is correct and the state is indeed the great legalized and socially legitimated channel for all manner of antisocial crime — theft, oppression, mass murder — on a massive scale, then surely the abolition of such an engine of crime can do nothing but favor the good in man and discourage the bad.
A further point: in a profound sense, no social system, whether anarchist or statist, can work at all unless most people are “good” in the sense that they are not all hell-bent upon assaulting and robbing their neighbors. If everyone were so disposed, no amount of protection, whether state or private, could succeed in staving off chaos. Furthermore, the more that people are disposed to be peaceful and not aggress against their neighbors, the more successfully any social system will work, and the fewer resources will need to be devoted to police protection. The anarchist view holds that, given the “nature of man,” given the degree of goodness or badness at any point in time, anarchism will maximize the opportunities for the good and minimize the channels for the bad. The rest depends on the values held by the individual members of society. The only further point that need be made is that by eliminating the living example and the social legitimacy of the massive legalized crime of the state, anarchism will to a large extent promote peaceful values in the minds of the public.
We cannot of course deal here with the numerous arguments in favor of anarchism or against the state, moral, political, and economic. Nor can we take up the various goods and services now provided by the state and show how private individuals and groups will be able to supply them far more efficiently on the free market. Here we can only deal with perhaps the most difficult area, the area where it is almost universally assumed that the state must exist and act, even if it is only a “necessary evil” instead of a positive good: the vital realm of defense or protection of person and property against aggression. Surely, it is universally asserted, the state is at least vitally necessary to provide police protection, the judicial resolution of disputes and enforcement of contracts, and the creation of the law itself that is to be enforced. My contention is that all of these admittedly necessary services of protection can be satisfactorily and efficiently supplied by private persons and institutions on the free market.
One important caveat before we begin the body of this paper: new proposals such as anarchism are almost always gauged against the implicit assumption that the present, or statist system works to perfection. Any lacunae or difficulties with the picture of the anarchist society are considered net liabilities, and enough to dismiss anarchism out of hand. It is, in short, implicitly assumed that the state is doing its self-assumed job of protecting person and property to perfection. We cannot here go into the reasons why the state is bound to suffer inherently from grave flaws and inefficiencies in such a task. All we need do now is to point to the black and unprecedented record of the state through history: no combination of private marauders can possibly begin to match the state’s unremitting record of theft, confiscation, oppression, and mass murder. No collection of Mafia or private bank robbers can begin to compare with all the Hiroshimas, Dresdens, and Lidices and their analogues through the history of mankind.
This point can be made more philosophically: it is illegitimate to compare the merits of anarchism and statism by starting with the present system as the implicit given and then critically examining only the anarchist alternative. What we must do is to begin at the zero point and then critically examine both suggested alternatives. Suppose, for example, that we were all suddenly dropped down on the earth de novo and that we were all then confronted with the question of what societal arrangements to adopt. And suppose then that someone suggested: “We are all bound to suffer from those of us who wish to aggress against their fellow men. Let us then solve this problem of crime by handing all of our weapons to the Jones family, over there, by giving all of our ultimate power to settle disputes to that family. In that way, with their monopoly of coercion and of ultimate decision making, the Jones family will be able to protect each of us from each other.” I submit that this proposal would get very short shrift, except perhaps from the Jones family themselves. And yet this is precisely the common argument for the existence of the state. When we start from the zero point, as in the case of the Jones family, the question of “who will guard the guardians?” becomes not simply an abiding lacuna in the theory of the state but an overwhelming barrier to its existence.
A final caveat: the anarchist is always at a disadvantage in attempting to forecast the shape of the future anarchist society. For it is impossible for observers to predict voluntary social arrangements, including the provision of goods and services, on the free market. Suppose, for example, that this were the year 1874 and that someone predicted that eventually there would be a radio-manufacturing industry. To be able to make such a forecast successfully, does he have to be challenged to state immediately how many radio manufacturers there would be a century hence, how big they would be, where they would be located, what technology and marketing techniques they would use, and so on? Obviously, such a challenge would make no sense, and in a profound sense the same is true of those who demand a precise portrayal of the pattern of protection activities on the market. Anarchism advocates the dissolution of the state into social and market arrangements, and these arrangements are far more flexible and less predictable than political institutions. The most that we can do, then, is to offer broad guidelines and perspectives on the shape of a projected anarchist society.
One important point to make here is that the advance of modern technology makes anarchistic arrangements increasingly feasible. Take, for example, the case of lighthouses, where it is often charged that it is unfeasible for private lighthouse operators to row out to each ship to charge it for use of the light. Apart from the fact that this argument ignores the successful existence of private lighthouses in earlier days, as in England in the eighteenth century, another vital consideration is that modern electronic technology makes charging each ship for the light far more feasible. Thus, the ship would have to have paid for an electronically controlled beam which could then be automatically turned on for those ships which had paid for the service.
Let us turn now to the problem of how disputes — in particular disputes over alleged violations of person and property — would be resolved in an anarchist society. First, it should be noted that all disputes involve two parties: the plaintiff, the alleged victim of the crime or tort and the defendant, the alleged aggressor. In many cases of broken contract, of course, each of the two parties alleging that the other is the culprit is at the same time a plaintiff and a defendant.
An important point to remember is that any society, be it statist or anarchist, has to have some way of resolving disputes that will gain a majority consensus in society. There would be no need for courts or arbitrators if everyone were omniscient and knew instantaneously which persons were guilty of any given crime or violation of contract. Since none of us is omniscient, there has to be some method of deciding who is the criminal or lawbreaker which will gain legitimacy; in short, whose decision will be accepted by the great majority of the public.
In the first place, a dispute may be resolved voluntarily between the two parties themselves, either unaided or with the help of a third mediator. This poses no problem, and will automatically be accepted by society at large. It is so accepted even now, much less in a society imbued with the anarchistic values of peaceful cooperation and agreement. Secondly and similarly, the two parties, unable to reach agreement, may decide to submit voluntarily to the decision of an arbitrator. This agreement may arise either after a dispute has arisen, or be provided for in advance in the original contract. Again, there is no problem in such an arrangement gaining legitimacy. Even in the present statist era, the notorious inefficiency and coercive and cumbersome procedures of the politically run government courts has led increasing numbers of citizens to turn to voluntary and expert arbitration for a speedy and harmonious settling of disputes.
Thus, William C. Wooldridge has written that
It may be objected that arbitration only works successfully because the courts enforce the award of the arbitrator. Wooldridge points out, however, that arbitration was unenforceable in the American courts before 1920, but that this did not prevent voluntary arbitration from being successful and expanding in the United States and in England. He points, furthermore, to the successful operations of merchant courts since the Middle Ages, those courts which successfully developed the entire body of the law merchant. None of those courts possessed the power of enforcement. He might have added the private courts of shippers which developed the body of admiralty law in a similar way.
How then did these private, “anarchistic,” and voluntary courts ensure the acceptance of their decisions? By the method of social ostracism, and by the refusal to deal any further with the offending merchant. This method of voluntary “enforcement,” indeed proved highly successful. Wooldridge writes that “the merchants’ courts were voluntary, and if a man ignored their judgment, he could not be sent to jail…. Nevertheless, it is apparent that … [their] decisions were generally respected even by the losers; otherwise people would never have used them in the first place…. Merchants made their courts work simply by agreeing to abide by the results. The merchant who broke the understanding would not be sent to jail, to be sure, but neither would he long continue to be a merchant, for the compliance exacted by his fellows … proved if anything more effective than physical coercion.”3 Nor did this voluntary method fail to work in modern times. Wooldridge writes that it was precisely in the years before 1920, when arbitration awards could not be enforced in the courts,
How would arbitrators be selected in an anarchist society? In the same way as they are chosen now, and as they were chosen in the days of strictly voluntary arbitration: the arbitrators with the best reputation for efficiency and probity would be chosen by the various parties on the market. As in other processes of the market, the arbitrators with the best record in settling disputes will come to gain an increasing amount of business, and those with poor records will no longer enjoy clients and will have to shift to another line of endeavor. Here it must be emphasized that parties in dispute will seek out those arbitrators with the best reputation for both expertise and impartiality and that inefficient or biased arbitrators will rapidly have to find another occupation.
Thus, the Tannehills emphasize:
In the wide sense, defense service consists of guards or police who use force in defending person and property against attack, and judges or courts whose role is to use socially accepted procedures to determine who the criminals or tortfeasors are, as well as to enforce judicial awards, such as damages or the keeping of contracts. On the free market, many scenarios are possible on the relationship between the private courts and the police; they may be “vertically integrated,” for example, or their services may be supplied by separate firms. Furthermore, it seems likely that police service will be supplied by insurance companies who will provide crime insurance to their clients. In that case, insurance companies will pay off the victims of crime or the breaking of contracts or arbitration awards and then pursue the aggressors in court to recoup their losses. There is a natural market connection between insurance companies and defense service, since they need pay out less benefits in proportion as they are able to keep down the rate of crime.
Courts might either charge fees for their services, with the losers of cases obliged to pay court costs, or else they may subsist on monthly or yearly premiums by their clients, who may be either individuals or the police or insurance agencies. Suppose, for example, that Smith is an aggrieved party, either because he has been assaulted or robbed, or because an arbitration award in his favor has not been honored. Smith believes that Jones is the party guilty of the crime. Smith then goes to a court, Court A, of which he is a client, and brings charges against Jones as a defendant. In my view, the hallmark of an anarchist society is one where no man may legally compel someone who is not a convicted criminal to do anything, since that would be aggression against an innocent man’s person or property. Therefore, Court A can only invite rather than subpoena Jones to attend his trial. Of course, if Jones refused to appear or send a representative, his side of the case will not be heard. The trial of Jones proceeds. Suppose that Court A finds Jones innocent. In my view, part of the generally accepted law code of the anarchist society (on which see further below) is that this must end the matter unless Smith can prove charges of gross incompetence or bias on the part of the court.
Suppose, next, that Court A finds Jones guilty. Jones might accept the verdict, because he too is a client of the same court, because he knows he is guilty, or for some other reason. In that case, Court A proceeds to exercise judgment against Jones. Neither of these instances poses very difficult problems for our picture of the anarchist society. But suppose, instead, that Jones contests the decision; he then goes to his court, Court B, and the case is retried there. Suppose that Court B, too, finds Jones guilty. Again, it seems to me that the accepted law code of the anarchist society will assert that this ends the matter; both parties have had their say in courts which each has selected, and the decision for guilt is unanimous.
Suppose, however, the most difficult case: that Court B finds Jones innocent. The two courts, each subscribed to by one of the two parties, have split their verdicts. In that case, the two courts will submit the case to an appeals court, or arbitrator, which the two courts agree upon. There seems to be no real difficulty about the concept of an appeals court. As in the case of arbitration contracts, it seems very likely that the various private courts in the society will have prior agreements to submit their disputes to a particular appeals court. How will the appeals judges be chosen? Again, as in the case of arbitrators or of the first judges on the free market, they will be chosen for their expertise and their reputation for efficiency, honesty, and integrity. Obviously, appeals judges who are inefficient or biased will scarcely be chosen by courts who will have a dispute. The point here is that there is no need for a legally established or institutionalized single, monopoly appeals court system, as states now provide. There is no reason why there cannot arise a multitude of efficient and honest appeals judges who will be selected by the disputant courts, just as there are numerous private arbitrators on the market today. The appeals court renders its decision, and the courts proceed to enforce it if, in our example, Jones is considered guilty — unless, of course, Jones can prove bias in some other court proceedings.
No society can have unlimited judicial appeals, for in that case there would be no point to having judges or courts at all. Therefore, every society, whether statist or anarchist, will have to have some socially accepted cutoff point for trials and appeals. My suggestion is the rule that the agreement of any two courts, be decisive. “Two” is not an arbitrary figure, for it reflects the fact that there are two parties, the plaintiff and the defendant, to any alleged crime or contract dispute.
If the courts are to be empowered to enforce decision against guilty parties, does this not bring back the state in another form and thereby negate anarchism? No, for at the beginning of this paper I explicitly defined anarchism in such a way as not to rule out the use of defensive force — force in defense of person and property — by privately supported agencies. In the same way, it is not bringing back the state to allow persons to use force to defend themselves against aggression, or to hire guards or police agencies to defend them.
It should be noted, however, that in the anarchist society there will be no “district attorney” to press charges on behalf of “society.” Only the victims will press charges as the plaintiffs. If, then, these victims should happen to be absolute pacifists who are opposed even to defensive force, then they will simply not press charges in the courts or otherwise retaliate against those who have aggressed against them. In a free society that would be their right. If the victim should suffer from murder, then his heir would have the right to press the charges.
What of the Hatfield-and-McCoy problem? Suppose that a Hatfield kills a McCoy, and that McCoy’s heir does not belong to a private insurance, police agency, or court, and decides to retaliate himself? Since under anarchism there can be no coercion of the noncriminal, McCoy would have the perfect right to do so. No one may be compelled to bring his case to a court. Indeed, since the right to hire police or courts flows from the right of self-defense against aggression, it would be inconsistent and in contradiction to the very basis of the free society to institute such compulsion.
Suppose, then, that the surviving McCoy finds what he believes to be the guilty Hatfield and kills him in turn? What then? This is fine, except that McCoy may have to worry about charges being brought against him by a surviving Hatfield. Here it must be emphasized that in the law of the anarchist society based on defense against aggression, the courts would not be able to proceed against McCoy if in fact he killed the right Hatfield. His problem would arise if the courts should find that he made a grievous mistake and killed the wrong man; in that case, he in turn would be found guilty of murder. Surely, in most instances, individuals will wish to obviate such problems by taking their case to a court and thereby gain social acceptability for their defensive retaliation — not for the act of retaliation but for the correctness of deciding who the criminal in any given case might be. The purpose of the judicial process, indeed, is to find a way of general agreement on who might be the criminal or contract breaker in any given case. The judicial process is not a good in itself; thus, in the case of an assassination, such as Jack Ruby’s murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, on public television, there is no need for a complex judicial process, since the name of the murderer is evident to all.
Will not the possibility exist of a private court that may turn venal and dishonest, or of a private police force that turns criminal and extorts money by coercion? Of course such an event may occur, given the propensities of human nature. Anarchism is not a moral cure-all. But the important point is that market forces exist to place severe checks on such possibilities, especially in contrast to a society where a state exists. For, in the first place, judges, like arbitrators, will prosper on the market in proportion to their reputation for efficiency and impartiality. Secondly, on the free market important checks and balances exist against venal courts or criminal police forces. Namely, that there are competing courts and police agencies to whom victims may turn for redress. If the “Prudential Police Agency” should turn outlaw and extract revenue from victims by coercion, the latter would have the option of turning to the “Mutual” or “Equitable” Police Agency for defense and for pressing charges against Prudential. These are the genuine “checks and balances” of the free market, genuine in contrast to the phony check and balances of a state system, where all the alleged “balancing” agencies are in the hands of one monopoly government. Indeed, given the monopoly “protection service” of a state, what is there to prevent a state from using its monopoly channels of coercion to extort money from the public? What are the checks and limits of the state? None, except for the extremely difficult course of revolution against a power with all of the guns in its hands. In fact, the state provides an easy, legitimated channel for crime and aggression, since it has its very being in the crime of tax theft, and the coerced monopoly of “protection.” It is the state, indeed, that functions as a mighty “protection racket” on a giant and massive scale. It is the state that says: “Pay us for your ‘protection’ or else.” In the light of the massive and inherent activities of the state, the danger of a “protection racket” emerging from one or more private police agencies is relatively small indeed.
Moreover, it must be emphasized that a crucial element in the power of the state is its legitimacy in the eyes of the majority of the public, the fact that after centuries of propaganda, the depredations of the state are looked upon rather as benevolent services. Taxation is generally not seen as theft, nor war as mass murder, nor conscription as slavery. Should a private police agency turn outlaw, should “Prudential” become a protection racket, it would then lack the social legitimacy which the state has managed to accrue to itself over the centuries. “Prudential” would be seen by all as bandits, rather than as legitimate or divinely appointed “sovereigns” bent on promoting the “common good” or the “general welfare.” And lacking such legitimacy, “Prudential” would have to face the wrath of the public and the defense and retaliation of the other private defense agencies, the police and courts, on the free market. Given these inherent checks and limits, a successful transformation from a free society to bandit rule becomes most unlikely. Indeed, historically, it has been very difficult for a state to arise to supplant a stateless society; usually, it has come about through external conquest rather than by evolution from within a society.
Within the anarchist camp, there has been much dispute on whether the private courts would have to be bound by a basic, common law code. Ingenious attempts have been made to work out a system where the laws or standards of decision-making by the courts would differ completely from one to another.7 But in my view all would have to abide by the basic law code, in particular, prohibition of aggression against person and property, in order to fulfill our definition of anarchism as a system which provides no legal sanction for such aggression. Suppose, for example, that one group of people in society holds that all redheads are demons who deserve to be shot on sight. Suppose that Jones, one of this group, shoots Smith, a redhead. Suppose that Smith or his heir presses charges in a court, but that Jones’s court, in philosophic agreement with Jones, finds him innocent therefore. It seems to me that in order to be considered legitimate, any court would have to follow the basic libertarian law code of the inviolate right of person and property. For otherwise, courts might legally subscribe to a code which sanctions such aggression in various cases, and which to that extent would violate the definition of anarchism and introduce, if not the state, then a strong element of statishness or legalized aggression into the society.
But again I see no insuperable difficulties here. For in that case, anarchists, in agitating for their creed, will simply include in their agitation the idea of a general libertarian law code as part and parcel of the anarchist creed of abolition of legalized aggression against person or property in the society.
In contrast to the general law code, other aspects of court decisions could legitimately vary in accordance with the market or the wishes of the clients; for example, the language the cases will be conducted in, the number of judges to be involved, and so on.
There are other problems of the basic law code which there is no time to go into here: for example, the definition of just property titles or the question of legitimate punishment of convicted offenders — though the latter problem of course exists in statist legal systems as well.8 The basic point, however, is that the state is not needed to arrive at legal principles or their elaboration: indeed, much of the common law, the law merchant, admiralty law, and private law in general, grew up apart from the state, by judges not making the law but finding it on the basis of agreed-upon principles derived either from custom or reason.9 The idea that the state is needed to make law is as much a myth as that the state is needed to supply postal or police services.
Enough has been said here, I believe, to indicate that an anarchist system for settling disputes would be both viable and self-subsistent: that once adopted, it could work and continue indefinitely. How to arrive at that system is of course a very different problem, but certainly at the very least it will not likely come about unless people are convinced of its workability, are convinced, in short, that the state is not a necessary evil.
[Murray Rothbard delivered this talk 32 years ago today at the American Society for Political and Legal Philosophy (ASPLP), Washington, DC: December 28, 1974. It was first published in The Libertarian Forum, volume 7.1, January 1975, available in PDF and ePub.]
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In attempting to outline how a “society without a state” — that is, an anarchist society — might function successfully, I would first like to defuse two common but mistaken criticisms of this approach. First, is the argument that in providing for such defense or protection services as courts, police, or even law itself, I am simply smuggling the state back into society in another form, and that therefore the system I am both analyzing and advocating is not “really” anarchism. This sort of criticism can only involve us in an endless and arid dispute over semantics. Let me say from the beginning that I define the state as that institution which possesses one or both (almost always both) of the following properties: (1) it acquires its income by the physical coercion known as “taxation”; and (2) it asserts and usually obtains a coerced monopoly of the provision of defense service (police and courts) over a given territorial area. An institution not possessing either of these properties is not and cannot be, in accordance with my definition, a state. On the other hand, I define anarchist society as one where there is no legal possibility for coercive aggression against the person or property of an individual. Anarchists oppose the state because it has its very being in such aggression, namely, the expropriation of private property through taxation, the coercive exclusion of other providers of defense service from its territory, and all of the other depredations and coercions that are built upon these twin foci of invasions of individual rights.
Nor is our definition of the state arbitrary, for these two characteristics have been possessed by what is generally acknowledged to be states throughout recorded history. The state, by its use of physical coercion, has arrogated to itself a compulsory monopoly of defense services over its territorial jurisdiction. But it is certainly conceptually possible for such services to be supplied by private, non-state institutions, and indeed such services have historically been supplied by other organizations than the state. To be opposed to the state is then not necessarily to be opposed to services that have often been linked with it; to be opposed to the state does not necessarily imply that we must be opposed to police protection, courts, arbitration, the minting of money, postal service, or roads and highways. Some anarchists have indeed been opposed to police and to all physical coercion in defense of person and property, but this is not inherent in and is fundamentally irrelevant to the anarchist position, which is precisely marked by opposition to all physical coercion invasive of, or aggressing against, person and property.
The crucial role of taxation may be seen in the fact that the state is the only institution or organization in society which regularly and systematically acquires its income through the use of physical coercion. All other individuals or organizations acquire their income voluntarily, either (1) through the voluntary sale of goods and services to consumers on the market, or (2) through voluntary gifts or donations by members or other donors. If I cease or refrain from purchasing Wheaties on the market, the Wheaties producers do not come after me with a gun or the threat of imprisonment to force me to purchase; if I fail to join the American Philosophical Association, the association may not force me to join or prevent me from giving up my membership. Only the state can do so; only the state can confiscate my property or put me in jail if I do not pay its tax tribute. Therefore, only the state regularly exists and has its very being by means of coercive depredations on private property.
Neither is it legitimate to challenge this sort of analysis by claiming that in some other sense, the purchase of Wheaties or membership in the APA is in some way “coercive.” Anyone who is still unhappy with this use of the term “coercion” can simply eliminate the word from this discussion and substitute for it “physical violence or the threat thereof,” with the only loss being in literary style rather than in the substance of the argument. What anarchism proposes to do, then, is to abolish the state, that is, to abolish the regularized institution of aggressive coercion.
It need hardly be added that the state habitually builds upon its coercive source of income by adding a host of other aggressions upon society, ranging from economic controls to the prohibition of pornography to the compelling of religious observance to the mass murder of civilians in organized warfare. In short, the state, in the words of Albert Jay Nock, “claims and exercises a monopoly of crime” over its territorial area.
The second criticism I would like to defuse before beginning the main body of the paper is the common charge that anarchists “assume that all people are good” and that without the state no crime would be committed. In short, that anarchism assumes that with the abolition of the state a New Anarchist Man will emerge, cooperative, humane, and benevolent, so that no problem of crime will then plague the society. I confess that I do not understand the basis for this charge. Whatever other schools of anarchism profess — and I do not believe that they are open to the charge — I certainly do not adopt this view. I assume with most observers that mankind is a mixture of good and evil, of cooperative and criminal tendencies. In my view, the anarchist society is one which maximizes the tendencies for the good and the cooperative, while it minimizes both the opportunity and the moral legitimacy of the evil and the criminal. If the anarchist view is correct and the state is indeed the great legalized and socially legitimated channel for all manner of antisocial crime — theft, oppression, mass murder — on a massive scale, then surely the abolition of such an engine of crime can do nothing but favor the good in man and discourage the bad.
A further point: in a profound sense, no social system, whether anarchist or statist, can work at all unless most people are “good” in the sense that they are not all hell-bent upon assaulting and robbing their neighbors. If everyone were so disposed, no amount of protection, whether state or private, could succeed in staving off chaos. Furthermore, the more that people are disposed to be peaceful and not aggress against their neighbors, the more successfully any social system will work, and the fewer resources will need to be devoted to police protection. The anarchist view holds that, given the “nature of man,” given the degree of goodness or badness at any point in time, anarchism will maximize the opportunities for the good and minimize the channels for the bad. The rest depends on the values held by the individual members of society. The only further point that need be made is that by eliminating the living example and the social legitimacy of the massive legalized crime of the state, anarchism will to a large extent promote peaceful values in the minds of the public.
We cannot of course deal here with the numerous arguments in favor of anarchism or against the state, moral, political, and economic. Nor can we take up the various goods and services now provided by the state and show how private individuals and groups will be able to supply them far more efficiently on the free market. Here we can only deal with perhaps the most difficult area, the area where it is almost universally assumed that the state must exist and act, even if it is only a “necessary evil” instead of a positive good: the vital realm of defense or protection of person and property against aggression. Surely, it is universally asserted, the state is at least vitally necessary to provide police protection, the judicial resolution of disputes and enforcement of contracts, and the creation of the law itself that is to be enforced. My contention is that all of these admittedly necessary services of protection can be satisfactorily and efficiently supplied by private persons and institutions on the free market.
One important caveat before we begin the body of this paper: new proposals such as anarchism are almost always gauged against the implicit assumption that the present, or statist system works to perfection. Any lacunae or difficulties with the picture of the anarchist society are considered net liabilities, and enough to dismiss anarchism out of hand. It is, in short, implicitly assumed that the state is doing its self-assumed job of protecting person and property to perfection. We cannot here go into the reasons why the state is bound to suffer inherently from grave flaws and inefficiencies in such a task. All we need do now is to point to the black and unprecedented record of the state through history: no combination of private marauders can possibly begin to match the state’s unremitting record of theft, confiscation, oppression, and mass murder. No collection of Mafia or private bank robbers can begin to compare with all the Hiroshimas, Dresdens, and Lidices and their analogues through the history of mankind.
This point can be made more philosophically: it is illegitimate to compare the merits of anarchism and statism by starting with the present system as the implicit given and then critically examining only the anarchist alternative. What we must do is to begin at the zero point and then critically examine both suggested alternatives. Suppose, for example, that we were all suddenly dropped down on the earth de novo and that we were all then confronted with the question of what societal arrangements to adopt. And suppose then that someone suggested: “We are all bound to suffer from those of us who wish to aggress against their fellow men. Let us then solve this problem of crime by handing all of our weapons to the Jones family, over there, by giving all of our ultimate power to settle disputes to that family. In that way, with their monopoly of coercion and of ultimate decision making, the Jones family will be able to protect each of us from each other.” I submit that this proposal would get very short shrift, except perhaps from the Jones family themselves. And yet this is precisely the common argument for the existence of the state. When we start from the zero point, as in the case of the Jones family, the question of “who will guard the guardians?” becomes not simply an abiding lacuna in the theory of the state but an overwhelming barrier to its existence.
A final caveat: the anarchist is always at a disadvantage in attempting to forecast the shape of the future anarchist society. For it is impossible for observers to predict voluntary social arrangements, including the provision of goods and services, on the free market. Suppose, for example, that this were the year 1874 and that someone predicted that eventually there would be a radio-manufacturing industry. To be able to make such a forecast successfully, does he have to be challenged to state immediately how many radio manufacturers there would be a century hence, how big they would be, where they would be located, what technology and marketing techniques they would use, and so on? Obviously, such a challenge would make no sense, and in a profound sense the same is true of those who demand a precise portrayal of the pattern of protection activities on the market. Anarchism advocates the dissolution of the state into social and market arrangements, and these arrangements are far more flexible and less predictable than political institutions. The most that we can do, then, is to offer broad guidelines and perspectives on the shape of a projected anarchist society.
One important point to make here is that the advance of modern technology makes anarchistic arrangements increasingly feasible. Take, for example, the case of lighthouses, where it is often charged that it is unfeasible for private lighthouse operators to row out to each ship to charge it for use of the light. Apart from the fact that this argument ignores the successful existence of private lighthouses in earlier days, as in England in the eighteenth century, another vital consideration is that modern electronic technology makes charging each ship for the light far more feasible. Thus, the ship would have to have paid for an electronically controlled beam which could then be automatically turned on for those ships which had paid for the service.
Let us turn now to the problem of how disputes — in particular disputes over alleged violations of person and property — would be resolved in an anarchist society. First, it should be noted that all disputes involve two parties: the plaintiff, the alleged victim of the crime or tort and the defendant, the alleged aggressor. In many cases of broken contract, of course, each of the two parties alleging that the other is the culprit is at the same time a plaintiff and a defendant.
An important point to remember is that any society, be it statist or anarchist, has to have some way of resolving disputes that will gain a majority consensus in society. There would be no need for courts or arbitrators if everyone were omniscient and knew instantaneously which persons were guilty of any given crime or violation of contract. Since none of us is omniscient, there has to be some method of deciding who is the criminal or lawbreaker which will gain legitimacy; in short, whose decision will be accepted by the great majority of the public.
In the first place, a dispute may be resolved voluntarily between the two parties themselves, either unaided or with the help of a third mediator. This poses no problem, and will automatically be accepted by society at large. It is so accepted even now, much less in a society imbued with the anarchistic values of peaceful cooperation and agreement. Secondly and similarly, the two parties, unable to reach agreement, may decide to submit voluntarily to the decision of an arbitrator. This agreement may arise either after a dispute has arisen, or be provided for in advance in the original contract. Again, there is no problem in such an arrangement gaining legitimacy. Even in the present statist era, the notorious inefficiency and coercive and cumbersome procedures of the politically run government courts has led increasing numbers of citizens to turn to voluntary and expert arbitration for a speedy and harmonious settling of disputes.
Thus, William C. Wooldridge has written that
Wooldridge adds the important point that, in addition to the speed of arbitration procedures vis-à-vis the courts, the arbitrators can proceed as experts in disregard of the official government law; in a profound sense, then, they serve to create a voluntary body of private law. “In other words,” states Wooldridge, “the system of extralegal, voluntary courts has progressed hand in hand with a body of private law; the rules of the state are circumvented by the same process that circumvents the forums established for the settlement of disputes over those rules…. In short, a private agreement between two people, a bilateral “law,” has supplanted the official law. The writ of the sovereign has cease to run, and for it is substituted a rule tacitly or explicitly agreed to by the parties. Wooldridge concludes that “if an arbitrator can choose to ignore a penal damage rule or the statute of limitations applicable to the claim before him (and it is generally conceded that he has that power), arbitration can be viewed as a practically revolutionary instrument for self-liberation from the law….”2
It may be objected that arbitration only works successfully because the courts enforce the award of the arbitrator. Wooldridge points out, however, that arbitration was unenforceable in the American courts before 1920, but that this did not prevent voluntary arbitration from being successful and expanding in the United States and in England. He points, furthermore, to the successful operations of merchant courts since the Middle Ages, those courts which successfully developed the entire body of the law merchant. None of those courts possessed the power of enforcement. He might have added the private courts of shippers which developed the body of admiralty law in a similar way.
How then did these private, “anarchistic,” and voluntary courts ensure the acceptance of their decisions? By the method of social ostracism, and by the refusal to deal any further with the offending merchant. This method of voluntary “enforcement,” indeed proved highly successful. Wooldridge writes that “the merchants’ courts were voluntary, and if a man ignored their judgment, he could not be sent to jail…. Nevertheless, it is apparent that … [their] decisions were generally respected even by the losers; otherwise people would never have used them in the first place…. Merchants made their courts work simply by agreeing to abide by the results. The merchant who broke the understanding would not be sent to jail, to be sure, but neither would he long continue to be a merchant, for the compliance exacted by his fellows … proved if anything more effective than physical coercion.”3 Nor did this voluntary method fail to work in modern times. Wooldridge writes that it was precisely in the years before 1920, when arbitration awards could not be enforced in the courts,
It should also be pointed out that modern technology makes even more feasible the collection and dissemination of information about people’s credit ratings and records of keeping or violating their contracts or arbitration agreements. Presumably, an anarchist society would see the expansion of this sort of dissemination of data and thereby facilitate the ostracism or boycotting of contract and arbitration violators.
How would arbitrators be selected in an anarchist society? In the same way as they are chosen now, and as they were chosen in the days of strictly voluntary arbitration: the arbitrators with the best reputation for efficiency and probity would be chosen by the various parties on the market. As in other processes of the market, the arbitrators with the best record in settling disputes will come to gain an increasing amount of business, and those with poor records will no longer enjoy clients and will have to shift to another line of endeavor. Here it must be emphasized that parties in dispute will seek out those arbitrators with the best reputation for both expertise and impartiality and that inefficient or biased arbitrators will rapidly have to find another occupation.
Thus, the Tannehills emphasize:
If desired, furthermore, the contracting parties could provide in advance for a series of arbitrators:
Arbitration, then, poses little difficulty for a portrayal of the free society. But what of torts or crimes of aggression where there has been no contract? Or suppose that the breaker of a contract defies the arbitration award? Is ostracism enough? In short, how can courts develop in the free-market anarchist society which will have the power to enforce judgments against criminals or contract breakers?
In the wide sense, defense service consists of guards or police who use force in defending person and property against attack, and judges or courts whose role is to use socially accepted procedures to determine who the criminals or tortfeasors are, as well as to enforce judicial awards, such as damages or the keeping of contracts. On the free market, many scenarios are possible on the relationship between the private courts and the police; they may be “vertically integrated,” for example, or their services may be supplied by separate firms. Furthermore, it seems likely that police service will be supplied by insurance companies who will provide crime insurance to their clients. In that case, insurance companies will pay off the victims of crime or the breaking of contracts or arbitration awards and then pursue the aggressors in court to recoup their losses. There is a natural market connection between insurance companies and defense service, since they need pay out less benefits in proportion as they are able to keep down the rate of crime.
Courts might either charge fees for their services, with the losers of cases obliged to pay court costs, or else they may subsist on monthly or yearly premiums by their clients, who may be either individuals or the police or insurance agencies. Suppose, for example, that Smith is an aggrieved party, either because he has been assaulted or robbed, or because an arbitration award in his favor has not been honored. Smith believes that Jones is the party guilty of the crime. Smith then goes to a court, Court A, of which he is a client, and brings charges against Jones as a defendant. In my view, the hallmark of an anarchist society is one where no man may legally compel someone who is not a convicted criminal to do anything, since that would be aggression against an innocent man’s person or property. Therefore, Court A can only invite rather than subpoena Jones to attend his trial. Of course, if Jones refused to appear or send a representative, his side of the case will not be heard. The trial of Jones proceeds. Suppose that Court A finds Jones innocent. In my view, part of the generally accepted law code of the anarchist society (on which see further below) is that this must end the matter unless Smith can prove charges of gross incompetence or bias on the part of the court.
Suppose, next, that Court A finds Jones guilty. Jones might accept the verdict, because he too is a client of the same court, because he knows he is guilty, or for some other reason. In that case, Court A proceeds to exercise judgment against Jones. Neither of these instances poses very difficult problems for our picture of the anarchist society. But suppose, instead, that Jones contests the decision; he then goes to his court, Court B, and the case is retried there. Suppose that Court B, too, finds Jones guilty. Again, it seems to me that the accepted law code of the anarchist society will assert that this ends the matter; both parties have had their say in courts which each has selected, and the decision for guilt is unanimous.
Suppose, however, the most difficult case: that Court B finds Jones innocent. The two courts, each subscribed to by one of the two parties, have split their verdicts. In that case, the two courts will submit the case to an appeals court, or arbitrator, which the two courts agree upon. There seems to be no real difficulty about the concept of an appeals court. As in the case of arbitration contracts, it seems very likely that the various private courts in the society will have prior agreements to submit their disputes to a particular appeals court. How will the appeals judges be chosen? Again, as in the case of arbitrators or of the first judges on the free market, they will be chosen for their expertise and their reputation for efficiency, honesty, and integrity. Obviously, appeals judges who are inefficient or biased will scarcely be chosen by courts who will have a dispute. The point here is that there is no need for a legally established or institutionalized single, monopoly appeals court system, as states now provide. There is no reason why there cannot arise a multitude of efficient and honest appeals judges who will be selected by the disputant courts, just as there are numerous private arbitrators on the market today. The appeals court renders its decision, and the courts proceed to enforce it if, in our example, Jones is considered guilty — unless, of course, Jones can prove bias in some other court proceedings.
No society can have unlimited judicial appeals, for in that case there would be no point to having judges or courts at all. Therefore, every society, whether statist or anarchist, will have to have some socially accepted cutoff point for trials and appeals. My suggestion is the rule that the agreement of any two courts, be decisive. “Two” is not an arbitrary figure, for it reflects the fact that there are two parties, the plaintiff and the defendant, to any alleged crime or contract dispute.
If the courts are to be empowered to enforce decision against guilty parties, does this not bring back the state in another form and thereby negate anarchism? No, for at the beginning of this paper I explicitly defined anarchism in such a way as not to rule out the use of defensive force — force in defense of person and property — by privately supported agencies. In the same way, it is not bringing back the state to allow persons to use force to defend themselves against aggression, or to hire guards or police agencies to defend them.
It should be noted, however, that in the anarchist society there will be no “district attorney” to press charges on behalf of “society.” Only the victims will press charges as the plaintiffs. If, then, these victims should happen to be absolute pacifists who are opposed even to defensive force, then they will simply not press charges in the courts or otherwise retaliate against those who have aggressed against them. In a free society that would be their right. If the victim should suffer from murder, then his heir would have the right to press the charges.
What of the Hatfield-and-McCoy problem? Suppose that a Hatfield kills a McCoy, and that McCoy’s heir does not belong to a private insurance, police agency, or court, and decides to retaliate himself? Since under anarchism there can be no coercion of the noncriminal, McCoy would have the perfect right to do so. No one may be compelled to bring his case to a court. Indeed, since the right to hire police or courts flows from the right of self-defense against aggression, it would be inconsistent and in contradiction to the very basis of the free society to institute such compulsion.
Suppose, then, that the surviving McCoy finds what he believes to be the guilty Hatfield and kills him in turn? What then? This is fine, except that McCoy may have to worry about charges being brought against him by a surviving Hatfield. Here it must be emphasized that in the law of the anarchist society based on defense against aggression, the courts would not be able to proceed against McCoy if in fact he killed the right Hatfield. His problem would arise if the courts should find that he made a grievous mistake and killed the wrong man; in that case, he in turn would be found guilty of murder. Surely, in most instances, individuals will wish to obviate such problems by taking their case to a court and thereby gain social acceptability for their defensive retaliation — not for the act of retaliation but for the correctness of deciding who the criminal in any given case might be. The purpose of the judicial process, indeed, is to find a way of general agreement on who might be the criminal or contract breaker in any given case. The judicial process is not a good in itself; thus, in the case of an assassination, such as Jack Ruby’s murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, on public television, there is no need for a complex judicial process, since the name of the murderer is evident to all.
Will not the possibility exist of a private court that may turn venal and dishonest, or of a private police force that turns criminal and extorts money by coercion? Of course such an event may occur, given the propensities of human nature. Anarchism is not a moral cure-all. But the important point is that market forces exist to place severe checks on such possibilities, especially in contrast to a society where a state exists. For, in the first place, judges, like arbitrators, will prosper on the market in proportion to their reputation for efficiency and impartiality. Secondly, on the free market important checks and balances exist against venal courts or criminal police forces. Namely, that there are competing courts and police agencies to whom victims may turn for redress. If the “Prudential Police Agency” should turn outlaw and extract revenue from victims by coercion, the latter would have the option of turning to the “Mutual” or “Equitable” Police Agency for defense and for pressing charges against Prudential. These are the genuine “checks and balances” of the free market, genuine in contrast to the phony check and balances of a state system, where all the alleged “balancing” agencies are in the hands of one monopoly government. Indeed, given the monopoly “protection service” of a state, what is there to prevent a state from using its monopoly channels of coercion to extort money from the public? What are the checks and limits of the state? None, except for the extremely difficult course of revolution against a power with all of the guns in its hands. In fact, the state provides an easy, legitimated channel for crime and aggression, since it has its very being in the crime of tax theft, and the coerced monopoly of “protection.” It is the state, indeed, that functions as a mighty “protection racket” on a giant and massive scale. It is the state that says: “Pay us for your ‘protection’ or else.” In the light of the massive and inherent activities of the state, the danger of a “protection racket” emerging from one or more private police agencies is relatively small indeed.
Moreover, it must be emphasized that a crucial element in the power of the state is its legitimacy in the eyes of the majority of the public, the fact that after centuries of propaganda, the depredations of the state are looked upon rather as benevolent services. Taxation is generally not seen as theft, nor war as mass murder, nor conscription as slavery. Should a private police agency turn outlaw, should “Prudential” become a protection racket, it would then lack the social legitimacy which the state has managed to accrue to itself over the centuries. “Prudential” would be seen by all as bandits, rather than as legitimate or divinely appointed “sovereigns” bent on promoting the “common good” or the “general welfare.” And lacking such legitimacy, “Prudential” would have to face the wrath of the public and the defense and retaliation of the other private defense agencies, the police and courts, on the free market. Given these inherent checks and limits, a successful transformation from a free society to bandit rule becomes most unlikely. Indeed, historically, it has been very difficult for a state to arise to supplant a stateless society; usually, it has come about through external conquest rather than by evolution from within a society.
Within the anarchist camp, there has been much dispute on whether the private courts would have to be bound by a basic, common law code. Ingenious attempts have been made to work out a system where the laws or standards of decision-making by the courts would differ completely from one to another.7 But in my view all would have to abide by the basic law code, in particular, prohibition of aggression against person and property, in order to fulfill our definition of anarchism as a system which provides no legal sanction for such aggression. Suppose, for example, that one group of people in society holds that all redheads are demons who deserve to be shot on sight. Suppose that Jones, one of this group, shoots Smith, a redhead. Suppose that Smith or his heir presses charges in a court, but that Jones’s court, in philosophic agreement with Jones, finds him innocent therefore. It seems to me that in order to be considered legitimate, any court would have to follow the basic libertarian law code of the inviolate right of person and property. For otherwise, courts might legally subscribe to a code which sanctions such aggression in various cases, and which to that extent would violate the definition of anarchism and introduce, if not the state, then a strong element of statishness or legalized aggression into the society.
But again I see no insuperable difficulties here. For in that case, anarchists, in agitating for their creed, will simply include in their agitation the idea of a general libertarian law code as part and parcel of the anarchist creed of abolition of legalized aggression against person or property in the society.
In contrast to the general law code, other aspects of court decisions could legitimately vary in accordance with the market or the wishes of the clients; for example, the language the cases will be conducted in, the number of judges to be involved, and so on.
There are other problems of the basic law code which there is no time to go into here: for example, the definition of just property titles or the question of legitimate punishment of convicted offenders — though the latter problem of course exists in statist legal systems as well.8 The basic point, however, is that the state is not needed to arrive at legal principles or their elaboration: indeed, much of the common law, the law merchant, admiralty law, and private law in general, grew up apart from the state, by judges not making the law but finding it on the basis of agreed-upon principles derived either from custom or reason.9 The idea that the state is needed to make law is as much a myth as that the state is needed to supply postal or police services.
Enough has been said here, I believe, to indicate that an anarchist system for settling disputes would be both viable and self-subsistent: that once adopted, it could work and continue indefinitely. How to arrive at that system is of course a very different problem, but certainly at the very least it will not likely come about unless people are convinced of its workability, are convinced, in short, that the state is not a necessary evil.
[Murray Rothbard delivered this talk 32 years ago today at the American Society for Political and Legal Philosophy (ASPLP), Washington, DC: December 28, 1974. It was first published in The Libertarian Forum, volume 7.1, January 1975, available in PDF and ePub.]
2024.05.14 06:30 Anenome5 Society without a State - Rothbard
https://mises.org/mises-daily/society-without-state
In attempting to outline how a “society without a state” — that is, an anarchist society — might function successfully, I would first like to defuse two common but mistaken criticisms of this approach. First, is the argument that in providing for such defense or protection services as courts, police, or even law itself, I am simply smuggling the state back into society in another form, and that therefore the system I am both analyzing and advocating is not “really” anarchism. This sort of criticism can only involve us in an endless and arid dispute over semantics. Let me say from the beginning that I define the state as that institution which possesses one or both (almost always both) of the following properties: (1) it acquires its income by the physical coercion known as “taxation”; and (2) it asserts and usually obtains a coerced monopoly of the provision of defense service (police and courts) over a given territorial area. An institution not possessing either of these properties is not and cannot be, in accordance with my definition, a state. On the other hand, I define anarchist society as one where there is no legal possibility for coercive aggression against the person or property of an individual. Anarchists oppose the state because it has its very being in such aggression, namely, the expropriation of private property through taxation, the coercive exclusion of other providers of defense service from its territory, and all of the other depredations and coercions that are built upon these twin foci of invasions of individual rights.
Nor is our definition of the state arbitrary, for these two characteristics have been possessed by what is generally acknowledged to be states throughout recorded history. The state, by its use of physical coercion, has arrogated to itself a compulsory monopoly of defense services over its territorial jurisdiction. But it is certainly conceptually possible for such services to be supplied by private, non-state institutions, and indeed such services have historically been supplied by other organizations than the state. To be opposed to the state is then not necessarily to be opposed to services that have often been linked with it; to be opposed to the state does not necessarily imply that we must be opposed to police protection, courts, arbitration, the minting of money, postal service, or roads and highways. Some anarchists have indeed been opposed to police and to all physical coercion in defense of person and property, but this is not inherent in and is fundamentally irrelevant to the anarchist position, which is precisely marked by opposition to all physical coercion invasive of, or aggressing against, person and property.
The crucial role of taxation may be seen in the fact that the state is the only institution or organization in society which regularly and systematically acquires its income through the use of physical coercion. All other individuals or organizations acquire their income voluntarily, either (1) through the voluntary sale of goods and services to consumers on the market, or (2) through voluntary gifts or donations by members or other donors. If I cease or refrain from purchasing Wheaties on the market, the Wheaties producers do not come after me with a gun or the threat of imprisonment to force me to purchase; if I fail to join the American Philosophical Association, the association may not force me to join or prevent me from giving up my membership. Only the state can do so; only the state can confiscate my property or put me in jail if I do not pay its tax tribute. Therefore, only the state regularly exists and has its very being by means of coercive depredations on private property.
Neither is it legitimate to challenge this sort of analysis by claiming that in some other sense, the purchase of Wheaties or membership in the APA is in some way “coercive.” Anyone who is still unhappy with this use of the term “coercion” can simply eliminate the word from this discussion and substitute for it “physical violence or the threat thereof,” with the only loss being in literary style rather than in the substance of the argument. What anarchism proposes to do, then, is to abolish the state, that is, to abolish the regularized institution of aggressive coercion.
It need hardly be added that the state habitually builds upon its coercive source of income by adding a host of other aggressions upon society, ranging from economic controls to the prohibition of pornography to the compelling of religious observance to the mass murder of civilians in organized warfare. In short, the state, in the words of Albert Jay Nock, “claims and exercises a monopoly of crime” over its territorial area.
The second criticism I would like to defuse before beginning the main body of the paper is the common charge that anarchists “assume that all people are good” and that without the state no crime would be committed. In short, that anarchism assumes that with the abolition of the state a New Anarchist Man will emerge, cooperative, humane, and benevolent, so that no problem of crime will then plague the society. I confess that I do not understand the basis for this charge. Whatever other schools of anarchism profess — and I do not believe that they are open to the charge — I certainly do not adopt this view. I assume with most observers that mankind is a mixture of good and evil, of cooperative and criminal tendencies. In my view, the anarchist society is one which maximizes the tendencies for the good and the cooperative, while it minimizes both the opportunity and the moral legitimacy of the evil and the criminal. If the anarchist view is correct and the state is indeed the great legalized and socially legitimated channel for all manner of antisocial crime — theft, oppression, mass murder — on a massive scale, then surely the abolition of such an engine of crime can do nothing but favor the good in man and discourage the bad.
A further point: in a profound sense, no social system, whether anarchist or statist, can work at all unless most people are “good” in the sense that they are not all hell-bent upon assaulting and robbing their neighbors. If everyone were so disposed, no amount of protection, whether state or private, could succeed in staving off chaos. Furthermore, the more that people are disposed to be peaceful and not aggress against their neighbors, the more successfully any social system will work, and the fewer resources will need to be devoted to police protection. The anarchist view holds that, given the “nature of man,” given the degree of goodness or badness at any point in time, anarchism will maximize the opportunities for the good and minimize the channels for the bad. The rest depends on the values held by the individual members of society. The only further point that need be made is that by eliminating the living example and the social legitimacy of the massive legalized crime of the state, anarchism will to a large extent promote peaceful values in the minds of the public.
We cannot of course deal here with the numerous arguments in favor of anarchism or against the state, moral, political, and economic. Nor can we take up the various goods and services now provided by the state and show how private individuals and groups will be able to supply them far more efficiently on the free market. Here we can only deal with perhaps the most difficult area, the area where it is almost universally assumed that the state must exist and act, even if it is only a “necessary evil” instead of a positive good: the vital realm of defense or protection of person and property against aggression. Surely, it is universally asserted, the state is at least vitally necessary to provide police protection, the judicial resolution of disputes and enforcement of contracts, and the creation of the law itself that is to be enforced. My contention is that all of these admittedly necessary services of protection can be satisfactorily and efficiently supplied by private persons and institutions on the free market.
One important caveat before we begin the body of this paper: new proposals such as anarchism are almost always gauged against the implicit assumption that the present, or statist system works to perfection. Any lacunae or difficulties with the picture of the anarchist society are considered net liabilities, and enough to dismiss anarchism out of hand. It is, in short, implicitly assumed that the state is doing its self-assumed job of protecting person and property to perfection. We cannot here go into the reasons why the state is bound to suffer inherently from grave flaws and inefficiencies in such a task. All we need do now is to point to the black and unprecedented record of the state through history: no combination of private marauders can possibly begin to match the state’s unremitting record of theft, confiscation, oppression, and mass murder. No collection of Mafia or private bank robbers can begin to compare with all the Hiroshimas, Dresdens, and Lidices and their analogues through the history of mankind.
This point can be made more philosophically: it is illegitimate to compare the merits of anarchism and statism by starting with the present system as the implicit given and then critically examining only the anarchist alternative. What we must do is to begin at the zero point and then critically examine both suggested alternatives. Suppose, for example, that we were all suddenly dropped down on the earth de novo and that we were all then confronted with the question of what societal arrangements to adopt. And suppose then that someone suggested: “We are all bound to suffer from those of us who wish to aggress against their fellow men. Let us then solve this problem of crime by handing all of our weapons to the Jones family, over there, by giving all of our ultimate power to settle disputes to that family. In that way, with their monopoly of coercion and of ultimate decision making, the Jones family will be able to protect each of us from each other.” I submit that this proposal would get very short shrift, except perhaps from the Jones family themselves. And yet this is precisely the common argument for the existence of the state. When we start from the zero point, as in the case of the Jones family, the question of “who will guard the guardians?” becomes not simply an abiding lacuna in the theory of the state but an overwhelming barrier to its existence.
A final caveat: the anarchist is always at a disadvantage in attempting to forecast the shape of the future anarchist society. For it is impossible for observers to predict voluntary social arrangements, including the provision of goods and services, on the free market. Suppose, for example, that this were the year 1874 and that someone predicted that eventually there would be a radio-manufacturing industry. To be able to make such a forecast successfully, does he have to be challenged to state immediately how many radio manufacturers there would be a century hence, how big they would be, where they would be located, what technology and marketing techniques they would use, and so on? Obviously, such a challenge would make no sense, and in a profound sense the same is true of those who demand a precise portrayal of the pattern of protection activities on the market. Anarchism advocates the dissolution of the state into social and market arrangements, and these arrangements are far more flexible and less predictable than political institutions. The most that we can do, then, is to offer broad guidelines and perspectives on the shape of a projected anarchist society.
One important point to make here is that the advance of modern technology makes anarchistic arrangements increasingly feasible. Take, for example, the case of lighthouses, where it is often charged that it is unfeasible for private lighthouse operators to row out to each ship to charge it for use of the light. Apart from the fact that this argument ignores the successful existence of private lighthouses in earlier days, as in England in the eighteenth century, another vital consideration is that modern electronic technology makes charging each ship for the light far more feasible. Thus, the ship would have to have paid for an electronically controlled beam which could then be automatically turned on for those ships which had paid for the service.
Let us turn now to the problem of how disputes — in particular disputes over alleged violations of person and property — would be resolved in an anarchist society. First, it should be noted that all disputes involve two parties: the plaintiff, the alleged victim of the crime or tort and the defendant, the alleged aggressor. In many cases of broken contract, of course, each of the two parties alleging that the other is the culprit is at the same time a plaintiff and a defendant.
An important point to remember is that any society, be it statist or anarchist, has to have some way of resolving disputes that will gain a majority consensus in society. There would be no need for courts or arbitrators if everyone were omniscient and knew instantaneously which persons were guilty of any given crime or violation of contract. Since none of us is omniscient, there has to be some method of deciding who is the criminal or lawbreaker which will gain legitimacy; in short, whose decision will be accepted by the great majority of the public.
In the first place, a dispute may be resolved voluntarily between the two parties themselves, either unaided or with the help of a third mediator. This poses no problem, and will automatically be accepted by society at large. It is so accepted even now, much less in a society imbued with the anarchistic values of peaceful cooperation and agreement. Secondly and similarly, the two parties, unable to reach agreement, may decide to submit voluntarily to the decision of an arbitrator. This agreement may arise either after a dispute has arisen, or be provided for in advance in the original contract. Again, there is no problem in such an arrangement gaining legitimacy. Even in the present statist era, the notorious inefficiency and coercive and cumbersome procedures of the politically run government courts has led increasing numbers of citizens to turn to voluntary and expert arbitration for a speedy and harmonious settling of disputes.
Thus, William C. Wooldridge has written that
It may be objected that arbitration only works successfully because the courts enforce the award of the arbitrator. Wooldridge points out, however, that arbitration was unenforceable in the American courts before 1920, but that this did not prevent voluntary arbitration from being successful and expanding in the United States and in England. He points, furthermore, to the successful operations of merchant courts since the Middle Ages, those courts which successfully developed the entire body of the law merchant. None of those courts possessed the power of enforcement. He might have added the private courts of shippers which developed the body of admiralty law in a similar way.
How then did these private, “anarchistic,” and voluntary courts ensure the acceptance of their decisions? By the method of social ostracism, and by the refusal to deal any further with the offending merchant. This method of voluntary “enforcement,” indeed proved highly successful. Wooldridge writes that “the merchants’ courts were voluntary, and if a man ignored their judgment, he could not be sent to jail…. Nevertheless, it is apparent that … [their] decisions were generally respected even by the losers; otherwise people would never have used them in the first place…. Merchants made their courts work simply by agreeing to abide by the results. The merchant who broke the understanding would not be sent to jail, to be sure, but neither would he long continue to be a merchant, for the compliance exacted by his fellows … proved if anything more effective than physical coercion.”3 Nor did this voluntary method fail to work in modern times. Wooldridge writes that it was precisely in the years before 1920, when arbitration awards could not be enforced in the courts,
How would arbitrators be selected in an anarchist society? In the same way as they are chosen now, and as they were chosen in the days of strictly voluntary arbitration: the arbitrators with the best reputation for efficiency and probity would be chosen by the various parties on the market. As in other processes of the market, the arbitrators with the best record in settling disputes will come to gain an increasing amount of business, and those with poor records will no longer enjoy clients and will have to shift to another line of endeavor. Here it must be emphasized that parties in dispute will seek out those arbitrators with the best reputation for both expertise and impartiality and that inefficient or biased arbitrators will rapidly have to find another occupation.
Thus, the Tannehills emphasize:
In the wide sense, defense service consists of guards or police who use force in defending person and property against attack, and judges or courts whose role is to use socially accepted procedures to determine who the criminals or tortfeasors are, as well as to enforce judicial awards, such as damages or the keeping of contracts. On the free market, many scenarios are possible on the relationship between the private courts and the police; they may be “vertically integrated,” for example, or their services may be supplied by separate firms. Furthermore, it seems likely that police service will be supplied by insurance companies who will provide crime insurance to their clients. In that case, insurance companies will pay off the victims of crime or the breaking of contracts or arbitration awards and then pursue the aggressors in court to recoup their losses. There is a natural market connection between insurance companies and defense service, since they need pay out less benefits in proportion as they are able to keep down the rate of crime.
Courts might either charge fees for their services, with the losers of cases obliged to pay court costs, or else they may subsist on monthly or yearly premiums by their clients, who may be either individuals or the police or insurance agencies. Suppose, for example, that Smith is an aggrieved party, either because he has been assaulted or robbed, or because an arbitration award in his favor has not been honored. Smith believes that Jones is the party guilty of the crime. Smith then goes to a court, Court A, of which he is a client, and brings charges against Jones as a defendant. In my view, the hallmark of an anarchist society is one where no man may legally compel someone who is not a convicted criminal to do anything, since that would be aggression against an innocent man’s person or property. Therefore, Court A can only invite rather than subpoena Jones to attend his trial. Of course, if Jones refused to appear or send a representative, his side of the case will not be heard. The trial of Jones proceeds. Suppose that Court A finds Jones innocent. In my view, part of the generally accepted law code of the anarchist society (on which see further below) is that this must end the matter unless Smith can prove charges of gross incompetence or bias on the part of the court.
Suppose, next, that Court A finds Jones guilty. Jones might accept the verdict, because he too is a client of the same court, because he knows he is guilty, or for some other reason. In that case, Court A proceeds to exercise judgment against Jones. Neither of these instances poses very difficult problems for our picture of the anarchist society. But suppose, instead, that Jones contests the decision; he then goes to his court, Court B, and the case is retried there. Suppose that Court B, too, finds Jones guilty. Again, it seems to me that the accepted law code of the anarchist society will assert that this ends the matter; both parties have had their say in courts which each has selected, and the decision for guilt is unanimous.
Suppose, however, the most difficult case: that Court B finds Jones innocent. The two courts, each subscribed to by one of the two parties, have split their verdicts. In that case, the two courts will submit the case to an appeals court, or arbitrator, which the two courts agree upon. There seems to be no real difficulty about the concept of an appeals court. As in the case of arbitration contracts, it seems very likely that the various private courts in the society will have prior agreements to submit their disputes to a particular appeals court. How will the appeals judges be chosen? Again, as in the case of arbitrators or of the first judges on the free market, they will be chosen for their expertise and their reputation for efficiency, honesty, and integrity. Obviously, appeals judges who are inefficient or biased will scarcely be chosen by courts who will have a dispute. The point here is that there is no need for a legally established or institutionalized single, monopoly appeals court system, as states now provide. There is no reason why there cannot arise a multitude of efficient and honest appeals judges who will be selected by the disputant courts, just as there are numerous private arbitrators on the market today. The appeals court renders its decision, and the courts proceed to enforce it if, in our example, Jones is considered guilty — unless, of course, Jones can prove bias in some other court proceedings.
No society can have unlimited judicial appeals, for in that case there would be no point to having judges or courts at all. Therefore, every society, whether statist or anarchist, will have to have some socially accepted cutoff point for trials and appeals. My suggestion is the rule that the agreement of any two courts, be decisive. “Two” is not an arbitrary figure, for it reflects the fact that there are two parties, the plaintiff and the defendant, to any alleged crime or contract dispute.
If the courts are to be empowered to enforce decision against guilty parties, does this not bring back the state in another form and thereby negate anarchism? No, for at the beginning of this paper I explicitly defined anarchism in such a way as not to rule out the use of defensive force — force in defense of person and property — by privately supported agencies. In the same way, it is not bringing back the state to allow persons to use force to defend themselves against aggression, or to hire guards or police agencies to defend them.
It should be noted, however, that in the anarchist society there will be no “district attorney” to press charges on behalf of “society.” Only the victims will press charges as the plaintiffs. If, then, these victims should happen to be absolute pacifists who are opposed even to defensive force, then they will simply not press charges in the courts or otherwise retaliate against those who have aggressed against them. In a free society that would be their right. If the victim should suffer from murder, then his heir would have the right to press the charges.
What of the Hatfield-and-McCoy problem? Suppose that a Hatfield kills a McCoy, and that McCoy’s heir does not belong to a private insurance, police agency, or court, and decides to retaliate himself? Since under anarchism there can be no coercion of the noncriminal, McCoy would have the perfect right to do so. No one may be compelled to bring his case to a court. Indeed, since the right to hire police or courts flows from the right of self-defense against aggression, it would be inconsistent and in contradiction to the very basis of the free society to institute such compulsion.
Suppose, then, that the surviving McCoy finds what he believes to be the guilty Hatfield and kills him in turn? What then? This is fine, except that McCoy may have to worry about charges being brought against him by a surviving Hatfield. Here it must be emphasized that in the law of the anarchist society based on defense against aggression, the courts would not be able to proceed against McCoy if in fact he killed the right Hatfield. His problem would arise if the courts should find that he made a grievous mistake and killed the wrong man; in that case, he in turn would be found guilty of murder. Surely, in most instances, individuals will wish to obviate such problems by taking their case to a court and thereby gain social acceptability for their defensive retaliation — not for the act of retaliation but for the correctness of deciding who the criminal in any given case might be. The purpose of the judicial process, indeed, is to find a way of general agreement on who might be the criminal or contract breaker in any given case. The judicial process is not a good in itself; thus, in the case of an assassination, such as Jack Ruby’s murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, on public television, there is no need for a complex judicial process, since the name of the murderer is evident to all.
Will not the possibility exist of a private court that may turn venal and dishonest, or of a private police force that turns criminal and extorts money by coercion? Of course such an event may occur, given the propensities of human nature. Anarchism is not a moral cure-all. But the important point is that market forces exist to place severe checks on such possibilities, especially in contrast to a society where a state exists. For, in the first place, judges, like arbitrators, will prosper on the market in proportion to their reputation for efficiency and impartiality. Secondly, on the free market important checks and balances exist against venal courts or criminal police forces. Namely, that there are competing courts and police agencies to whom victims may turn for redress. If the “Prudential Police Agency” should turn outlaw and extract revenue from victims by coercion, the latter would have the option of turning to the “Mutual” or “Equitable” Police Agency for defense and for pressing charges against Prudential. These are the genuine “checks and balances” of the free market, genuine in contrast to the phony check and balances of a state system, where all the alleged “balancing” agencies are in the hands of one monopoly government. Indeed, given the monopoly “protection service” of a state, what is there to prevent a state from using its monopoly channels of coercion to extort money from the public? What are the checks and limits of the state? None, except for the extremely difficult course of revolution against a power with all of the guns in its hands. In fact, the state provides an easy, legitimated channel for crime and aggression, since it has its very being in the crime of tax theft, and the coerced monopoly of “protection.” It is the state, indeed, that functions as a mighty “protection racket” on a giant and massive scale. It is the state that says: “Pay us for your ‘protection’ or else.” In the light of the massive and inherent activities of the state, the danger of a “protection racket” emerging from one or more private police agencies is relatively small indeed.
Moreover, it must be emphasized that a crucial element in the power of the state is its legitimacy in the eyes of the majority of the public, the fact that after centuries of propaganda, the depredations of the state are looked upon rather as benevolent services. Taxation is generally not seen as theft, nor war as mass murder, nor conscription as slavery. Should a private police agency turn outlaw, should “Prudential” become a protection racket, it would then lack the social legitimacy which the state has managed to accrue to itself over the centuries. “Prudential” would be seen by all as bandits, rather than as legitimate or divinely appointed “sovereigns” bent on promoting the “common good” or the “general welfare.” And lacking such legitimacy, “Prudential” would have to face the wrath of the public and the defense and retaliation of the other private defense agencies, the police and courts, on the free market. Given these inherent checks and limits, a successful transformation from a free society to bandit rule becomes most unlikely. Indeed, historically, it has been very difficult for a state to arise to supplant a stateless society; usually, it has come about through external conquest rather than by evolution from within a society.
Within the anarchist camp, there has been much dispute on whether the private courts would have to be bound by a basic, common law code. Ingenious attempts have been made to work out a system where the laws or standards of decision-making by the courts would differ completely from one to another.7 But in my view all would have to abide by the basic law code, in particular, prohibition of aggression against person and property, in order to fulfill our definition of anarchism as a system which provides no legal sanction for such aggression. Suppose, for example, that one group of people in society holds that all redheads are demons who deserve to be shot on sight. Suppose that Jones, one of this group, shoots Smith, a redhead. Suppose that Smith or his heir presses charges in a court, but that Jones’s court, in philosophic agreement with Jones, finds him innocent therefore. It seems to me that in order to be considered legitimate, any court would have to follow the basic libertarian law code of the inviolate right of person and property. For otherwise, courts might legally subscribe to a code which sanctions such aggression in various cases, and which to that extent would violate the definition of anarchism and introduce, if not the state, then a strong element of statishness or legalized aggression into the society.
But again I see no insuperable difficulties here. For in that case, anarchists, in agitating for their creed, will simply include in their agitation the idea of a general libertarian law code as part and parcel of the anarchist creed of abolition of legalized aggression against person or property in the society.
In contrast to the general law code, other aspects of court decisions could legitimately vary in accordance with the market or the wishes of the clients; for example, the language the cases will be conducted in, the number of judges to be involved, and so on.
There are other problems of the basic law code which there is no time to go into here: for example, the definition of just property titles or the question of legitimate punishment of convicted offenders — though the latter problem of course exists in statist legal systems as well.8 The basic point, however, is that the state is not needed to arrive at legal principles or their elaboration: indeed, much of the common law, the law merchant, admiralty law, and private law in general, grew up apart from the state, by judges not making the law but finding it on the basis of agreed-upon principles derived either from custom or reason.9 The idea that the state is needed to make law is as much a myth as that the state is needed to supply postal or police services.
Enough has been said here, I believe, to indicate that an anarchist system for settling disputes would be both viable and self-subsistent: that once adopted, it could work and continue indefinitely. How to arrive at that system is of course a very different problem, but certainly at the very least it will not likely come about unless people are convinced of its workability, are convinced, in short, that the state is not a necessary evil.
[Murray Rothbard delivered this talk 32 years ago today at the American Society for Political and Legal Philosophy (ASPLP), Washington, DC: December 28, 1974. It was first published in The Libertarian Forum, volume 7.1, January 1975, available in PDF and ePub.]
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In attempting to outline how a “society without a state” — that is, an anarchist society — might function successfully, I would first like to defuse two common but mistaken criticisms of this approach. First, is the argument that in providing for such defense or protection services as courts, police, or even law itself, I am simply smuggling the state back into society in another form, and that therefore the system I am both analyzing and advocating is not “really” anarchism. This sort of criticism can only involve us in an endless and arid dispute over semantics. Let me say from the beginning that I define the state as that institution which possesses one or both (almost always both) of the following properties: (1) it acquires its income by the physical coercion known as “taxation”; and (2) it asserts and usually obtains a coerced monopoly of the provision of defense service (police and courts) over a given territorial area. An institution not possessing either of these properties is not and cannot be, in accordance with my definition, a state. On the other hand, I define anarchist society as one where there is no legal possibility for coercive aggression against the person or property of an individual. Anarchists oppose the state because it has its very being in such aggression, namely, the expropriation of private property through taxation, the coercive exclusion of other providers of defense service from its territory, and all of the other depredations and coercions that are built upon these twin foci of invasions of individual rights.
Nor is our definition of the state arbitrary, for these two characteristics have been possessed by what is generally acknowledged to be states throughout recorded history. The state, by its use of physical coercion, has arrogated to itself a compulsory monopoly of defense services over its territorial jurisdiction. But it is certainly conceptually possible for such services to be supplied by private, non-state institutions, and indeed such services have historically been supplied by other organizations than the state. To be opposed to the state is then not necessarily to be opposed to services that have often been linked with it; to be opposed to the state does not necessarily imply that we must be opposed to police protection, courts, arbitration, the minting of money, postal service, or roads and highways. Some anarchists have indeed been opposed to police and to all physical coercion in defense of person and property, but this is not inherent in and is fundamentally irrelevant to the anarchist position, which is precisely marked by opposition to all physical coercion invasive of, or aggressing against, person and property.
The crucial role of taxation may be seen in the fact that the state is the only institution or organization in society which regularly and systematically acquires its income through the use of physical coercion. All other individuals or organizations acquire their income voluntarily, either (1) through the voluntary sale of goods and services to consumers on the market, or (2) through voluntary gifts or donations by members or other donors. If I cease or refrain from purchasing Wheaties on the market, the Wheaties producers do not come after me with a gun or the threat of imprisonment to force me to purchase; if I fail to join the American Philosophical Association, the association may not force me to join or prevent me from giving up my membership. Only the state can do so; only the state can confiscate my property or put me in jail if I do not pay its tax tribute. Therefore, only the state regularly exists and has its very being by means of coercive depredations on private property.
Neither is it legitimate to challenge this sort of analysis by claiming that in some other sense, the purchase of Wheaties or membership in the APA is in some way “coercive.” Anyone who is still unhappy with this use of the term “coercion” can simply eliminate the word from this discussion and substitute for it “physical violence or the threat thereof,” with the only loss being in literary style rather than in the substance of the argument. What anarchism proposes to do, then, is to abolish the state, that is, to abolish the regularized institution of aggressive coercion.
It need hardly be added that the state habitually builds upon its coercive source of income by adding a host of other aggressions upon society, ranging from economic controls to the prohibition of pornography to the compelling of religious observance to the mass murder of civilians in organized warfare. In short, the state, in the words of Albert Jay Nock, “claims and exercises a monopoly of crime” over its territorial area.
The second criticism I would like to defuse before beginning the main body of the paper is the common charge that anarchists “assume that all people are good” and that without the state no crime would be committed. In short, that anarchism assumes that with the abolition of the state a New Anarchist Man will emerge, cooperative, humane, and benevolent, so that no problem of crime will then plague the society. I confess that I do not understand the basis for this charge. Whatever other schools of anarchism profess — and I do not believe that they are open to the charge — I certainly do not adopt this view. I assume with most observers that mankind is a mixture of good and evil, of cooperative and criminal tendencies. In my view, the anarchist society is one which maximizes the tendencies for the good and the cooperative, while it minimizes both the opportunity and the moral legitimacy of the evil and the criminal. If the anarchist view is correct and the state is indeed the great legalized and socially legitimated channel for all manner of antisocial crime — theft, oppression, mass murder — on a massive scale, then surely the abolition of such an engine of crime can do nothing but favor the good in man and discourage the bad.
A further point: in a profound sense, no social system, whether anarchist or statist, can work at all unless most people are “good” in the sense that they are not all hell-bent upon assaulting and robbing their neighbors. If everyone were so disposed, no amount of protection, whether state or private, could succeed in staving off chaos. Furthermore, the more that people are disposed to be peaceful and not aggress against their neighbors, the more successfully any social system will work, and the fewer resources will need to be devoted to police protection. The anarchist view holds that, given the “nature of man,” given the degree of goodness or badness at any point in time, anarchism will maximize the opportunities for the good and minimize the channels for the bad. The rest depends on the values held by the individual members of society. The only further point that need be made is that by eliminating the living example and the social legitimacy of the massive legalized crime of the state, anarchism will to a large extent promote peaceful values in the minds of the public.
We cannot of course deal here with the numerous arguments in favor of anarchism or against the state, moral, political, and economic. Nor can we take up the various goods and services now provided by the state and show how private individuals and groups will be able to supply them far more efficiently on the free market. Here we can only deal with perhaps the most difficult area, the area where it is almost universally assumed that the state must exist and act, even if it is only a “necessary evil” instead of a positive good: the vital realm of defense or protection of person and property against aggression. Surely, it is universally asserted, the state is at least vitally necessary to provide police protection, the judicial resolution of disputes and enforcement of contracts, and the creation of the law itself that is to be enforced. My contention is that all of these admittedly necessary services of protection can be satisfactorily and efficiently supplied by private persons and institutions on the free market.
One important caveat before we begin the body of this paper: new proposals such as anarchism are almost always gauged against the implicit assumption that the present, or statist system works to perfection. Any lacunae or difficulties with the picture of the anarchist society are considered net liabilities, and enough to dismiss anarchism out of hand. It is, in short, implicitly assumed that the state is doing its self-assumed job of protecting person and property to perfection. We cannot here go into the reasons why the state is bound to suffer inherently from grave flaws and inefficiencies in such a task. All we need do now is to point to the black and unprecedented record of the state through history: no combination of private marauders can possibly begin to match the state’s unremitting record of theft, confiscation, oppression, and mass murder. No collection of Mafia or private bank robbers can begin to compare with all the Hiroshimas, Dresdens, and Lidices and their analogues through the history of mankind.
This point can be made more philosophically: it is illegitimate to compare the merits of anarchism and statism by starting with the present system as the implicit given and then critically examining only the anarchist alternative. What we must do is to begin at the zero point and then critically examine both suggested alternatives. Suppose, for example, that we were all suddenly dropped down on the earth de novo and that we were all then confronted with the question of what societal arrangements to adopt. And suppose then that someone suggested: “We are all bound to suffer from those of us who wish to aggress against their fellow men. Let us then solve this problem of crime by handing all of our weapons to the Jones family, over there, by giving all of our ultimate power to settle disputes to that family. In that way, with their monopoly of coercion and of ultimate decision making, the Jones family will be able to protect each of us from each other.” I submit that this proposal would get very short shrift, except perhaps from the Jones family themselves. And yet this is precisely the common argument for the existence of the state. When we start from the zero point, as in the case of the Jones family, the question of “who will guard the guardians?” becomes not simply an abiding lacuna in the theory of the state but an overwhelming barrier to its existence.
A final caveat: the anarchist is always at a disadvantage in attempting to forecast the shape of the future anarchist society. For it is impossible for observers to predict voluntary social arrangements, including the provision of goods and services, on the free market. Suppose, for example, that this were the year 1874 and that someone predicted that eventually there would be a radio-manufacturing industry. To be able to make such a forecast successfully, does he have to be challenged to state immediately how many radio manufacturers there would be a century hence, how big they would be, where they would be located, what technology and marketing techniques they would use, and so on? Obviously, such a challenge would make no sense, and in a profound sense the same is true of those who demand a precise portrayal of the pattern of protection activities on the market. Anarchism advocates the dissolution of the state into social and market arrangements, and these arrangements are far more flexible and less predictable than political institutions. The most that we can do, then, is to offer broad guidelines and perspectives on the shape of a projected anarchist society.
One important point to make here is that the advance of modern technology makes anarchistic arrangements increasingly feasible. Take, for example, the case of lighthouses, where it is often charged that it is unfeasible for private lighthouse operators to row out to each ship to charge it for use of the light. Apart from the fact that this argument ignores the successful existence of private lighthouses in earlier days, as in England in the eighteenth century, another vital consideration is that modern electronic technology makes charging each ship for the light far more feasible. Thus, the ship would have to have paid for an electronically controlled beam which could then be automatically turned on for those ships which had paid for the service.
Let us turn now to the problem of how disputes — in particular disputes over alleged violations of person and property — would be resolved in an anarchist society. First, it should be noted that all disputes involve two parties: the plaintiff, the alleged victim of the crime or tort and the defendant, the alleged aggressor. In many cases of broken contract, of course, each of the two parties alleging that the other is the culprit is at the same time a plaintiff and a defendant.
An important point to remember is that any society, be it statist or anarchist, has to have some way of resolving disputes that will gain a majority consensus in society. There would be no need for courts or arbitrators if everyone were omniscient and knew instantaneously which persons were guilty of any given crime or violation of contract. Since none of us is omniscient, there has to be some method of deciding who is the criminal or lawbreaker which will gain legitimacy; in short, whose decision will be accepted by the great majority of the public.
In the first place, a dispute may be resolved voluntarily between the two parties themselves, either unaided or with the help of a third mediator. This poses no problem, and will automatically be accepted by society at large. It is so accepted even now, much less in a society imbued with the anarchistic values of peaceful cooperation and agreement. Secondly and similarly, the two parties, unable to reach agreement, may decide to submit voluntarily to the decision of an arbitrator. This agreement may arise either after a dispute has arisen, or be provided for in advance in the original contract. Again, there is no problem in such an arrangement gaining legitimacy. Even in the present statist era, the notorious inefficiency and coercive and cumbersome procedures of the politically run government courts has led increasing numbers of citizens to turn to voluntary and expert arbitration for a speedy and harmonious settling of disputes.
Thus, William C. Wooldridge has written that
Wooldridge adds the important point that, in addition to the speed of arbitration procedures vis-à-vis the courts, the arbitrators can proceed as experts in disregard of the official government law; in a profound sense, then, they serve to create a voluntary body of private law. “In other words,” states Wooldridge, “the system of extralegal, voluntary courts has progressed hand in hand with a body of private law; the rules of the state are circumvented by the same process that circumvents the forums established for the settlement of disputes over those rules…. In short, a private agreement between two people, a bilateral “law,” has supplanted the official law. The writ of the sovereign has cease to run, and for it is substituted a rule tacitly or explicitly agreed to by the parties. Wooldridge concludes that “if an arbitrator can choose to ignore a penal damage rule or the statute of limitations applicable to the claim before him (and it is generally conceded that he has that power), arbitration can be viewed as a practically revolutionary instrument for self-liberation from the law….”2
It may be objected that arbitration only works successfully because the courts enforce the award of the arbitrator. Wooldridge points out, however, that arbitration was unenforceable in the American courts before 1920, but that this did not prevent voluntary arbitration from being successful and expanding in the United States and in England. He points, furthermore, to the successful operations of merchant courts since the Middle Ages, those courts which successfully developed the entire body of the law merchant. None of those courts possessed the power of enforcement. He might have added the private courts of shippers which developed the body of admiralty law in a similar way.
How then did these private, “anarchistic,” and voluntary courts ensure the acceptance of their decisions? By the method of social ostracism, and by the refusal to deal any further with the offending merchant. This method of voluntary “enforcement,” indeed proved highly successful. Wooldridge writes that “the merchants’ courts were voluntary, and if a man ignored their judgment, he could not be sent to jail…. Nevertheless, it is apparent that … [their] decisions were generally respected even by the losers; otherwise people would never have used them in the first place…. Merchants made their courts work simply by agreeing to abide by the results. The merchant who broke the understanding would not be sent to jail, to be sure, but neither would he long continue to be a merchant, for the compliance exacted by his fellows … proved if anything more effective than physical coercion.”3 Nor did this voluntary method fail to work in modern times. Wooldridge writes that it was precisely in the years before 1920, when arbitration awards could not be enforced in the courts,
It should also be pointed out that modern technology makes even more feasible the collection and dissemination of information about people’s credit ratings and records of keeping or violating their contracts or arbitration agreements. Presumably, an anarchist society would see the expansion of this sort of dissemination of data and thereby facilitate the ostracism or boycotting of contract and arbitration violators.
How would arbitrators be selected in an anarchist society? In the same way as they are chosen now, and as they were chosen in the days of strictly voluntary arbitration: the arbitrators with the best reputation for efficiency and probity would be chosen by the various parties on the market. As in other processes of the market, the arbitrators with the best record in settling disputes will come to gain an increasing amount of business, and those with poor records will no longer enjoy clients and will have to shift to another line of endeavor. Here it must be emphasized that parties in dispute will seek out those arbitrators with the best reputation for both expertise and impartiality and that inefficient or biased arbitrators will rapidly have to find another occupation.
Thus, the Tannehills emphasize:
If desired, furthermore, the contracting parties could provide in advance for a series of arbitrators:
Arbitration, then, poses little difficulty for a portrayal of the free society. But what of torts or crimes of aggression where there has been no contract? Or suppose that the breaker of a contract defies the arbitration award? Is ostracism enough? In short, how can courts develop in the free-market anarchist society which will have the power to enforce judgments against criminals or contract breakers?
In the wide sense, defense service consists of guards or police who use force in defending person and property against attack, and judges or courts whose role is to use socially accepted procedures to determine who the criminals or tortfeasors are, as well as to enforce judicial awards, such as damages or the keeping of contracts. On the free market, many scenarios are possible on the relationship between the private courts and the police; they may be “vertically integrated,” for example, or their services may be supplied by separate firms. Furthermore, it seems likely that police service will be supplied by insurance companies who will provide crime insurance to their clients. In that case, insurance companies will pay off the victims of crime or the breaking of contracts or arbitration awards and then pursue the aggressors in court to recoup their losses. There is a natural market connection between insurance companies and defense service, since they need pay out less benefits in proportion as they are able to keep down the rate of crime.
Courts might either charge fees for their services, with the losers of cases obliged to pay court costs, or else they may subsist on monthly or yearly premiums by their clients, who may be either individuals or the police or insurance agencies. Suppose, for example, that Smith is an aggrieved party, either because he has been assaulted or robbed, or because an arbitration award in his favor has not been honored. Smith believes that Jones is the party guilty of the crime. Smith then goes to a court, Court A, of which he is a client, and brings charges against Jones as a defendant. In my view, the hallmark of an anarchist society is one where no man may legally compel someone who is not a convicted criminal to do anything, since that would be aggression against an innocent man’s person or property. Therefore, Court A can only invite rather than subpoena Jones to attend his trial. Of course, if Jones refused to appear or send a representative, his side of the case will not be heard. The trial of Jones proceeds. Suppose that Court A finds Jones innocent. In my view, part of the generally accepted law code of the anarchist society (on which see further below) is that this must end the matter unless Smith can prove charges of gross incompetence or bias on the part of the court.
Suppose, next, that Court A finds Jones guilty. Jones might accept the verdict, because he too is a client of the same court, because he knows he is guilty, or for some other reason. In that case, Court A proceeds to exercise judgment against Jones. Neither of these instances poses very difficult problems for our picture of the anarchist society. But suppose, instead, that Jones contests the decision; he then goes to his court, Court B, and the case is retried there. Suppose that Court B, too, finds Jones guilty. Again, it seems to me that the accepted law code of the anarchist society will assert that this ends the matter; both parties have had their say in courts which each has selected, and the decision for guilt is unanimous.
Suppose, however, the most difficult case: that Court B finds Jones innocent. The two courts, each subscribed to by one of the two parties, have split their verdicts. In that case, the two courts will submit the case to an appeals court, or arbitrator, which the two courts agree upon. There seems to be no real difficulty about the concept of an appeals court. As in the case of arbitration contracts, it seems very likely that the various private courts in the society will have prior agreements to submit their disputes to a particular appeals court. How will the appeals judges be chosen? Again, as in the case of arbitrators or of the first judges on the free market, they will be chosen for their expertise and their reputation for efficiency, honesty, and integrity. Obviously, appeals judges who are inefficient or biased will scarcely be chosen by courts who will have a dispute. The point here is that there is no need for a legally established or institutionalized single, monopoly appeals court system, as states now provide. There is no reason why there cannot arise a multitude of efficient and honest appeals judges who will be selected by the disputant courts, just as there are numerous private arbitrators on the market today. The appeals court renders its decision, and the courts proceed to enforce it if, in our example, Jones is considered guilty — unless, of course, Jones can prove bias in some other court proceedings.
No society can have unlimited judicial appeals, for in that case there would be no point to having judges or courts at all. Therefore, every society, whether statist or anarchist, will have to have some socially accepted cutoff point for trials and appeals. My suggestion is the rule that the agreement of any two courts, be decisive. “Two” is not an arbitrary figure, for it reflects the fact that there are two parties, the plaintiff and the defendant, to any alleged crime or contract dispute.
If the courts are to be empowered to enforce decision against guilty parties, does this not bring back the state in another form and thereby negate anarchism? No, for at the beginning of this paper I explicitly defined anarchism in such a way as not to rule out the use of defensive force — force in defense of person and property — by privately supported agencies. In the same way, it is not bringing back the state to allow persons to use force to defend themselves against aggression, or to hire guards or police agencies to defend them.
It should be noted, however, that in the anarchist society there will be no “district attorney” to press charges on behalf of “society.” Only the victims will press charges as the plaintiffs. If, then, these victims should happen to be absolute pacifists who are opposed even to defensive force, then they will simply not press charges in the courts or otherwise retaliate against those who have aggressed against them. In a free society that would be their right. If the victim should suffer from murder, then his heir would have the right to press the charges.
What of the Hatfield-and-McCoy problem? Suppose that a Hatfield kills a McCoy, and that McCoy’s heir does not belong to a private insurance, police agency, or court, and decides to retaliate himself? Since under anarchism there can be no coercion of the noncriminal, McCoy would have the perfect right to do so. No one may be compelled to bring his case to a court. Indeed, since the right to hire police or courts flows from the right of self-defense against aggression, it would be inconsistent and in contradiction to the very basis of the free society to institute such compulsion.
Suppose, then, that the surviving McCoy finds what he believes to be the guilty Hatfield and kills him in turn? What then? This is fine, except that McCoy may have to worry about charges being brought against him by a surviving Hatfield. Here it must be emphasized that in the law of the anarchist society based on defense against aggression, the courts would not be able to proceed against McCoy if in fact he killed the right Hatfield. His problem would arise if the courts should find that he made a grievous mistake and killed the wrong man; in that case, he in turn would be found guilty of murder. Surely, in most instances, individuals will wish to obviate such problems by taking their case to a court and thereby gain social acceptability for their defensive retaliation — not for the act of retaliation but for the correctness of deciding who the criminal in any given case might be. The purpose of the judicial process, indeed, is to find a way of general agreement on who might be the criminal or contract breaker in any given case. The judicial process is not a good in itself; thus, in the case of an assassination, such as Jack Ruby’s murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, on public television, there is no need for a complex judicial process, since the name of the murderer is evident to all.
Will not the possibility exist of a private court that may turn venal and dishonest, or of a private police force that turns criminal and extorts money by coercion? Of course such an event may occur, given the propensities of human nature. Anarchism is not a moral cure-all. But the important point is that market forces exist to place severe checks on such possibilities, especially in contrast to a society where a state exists. For, in the first place, judges, like arbitrators, will prosper on the market in proportion to their reputation for efficiency and impartiality. Secondly, on the free market important checks and balances exist against venal courts or criminal police forces. Namely, that there are competing courts and police agencies to whom victims may turn for redress. If the “Prudential Police Agency” should turn outlaw and extract revenue from victims by coercion, the latter would have the option of turning to the “Mutual” or “Equitable” Police Agency for defense and for pressing charges against Prudential. These are the genuine “checks and balances” of the free market, genuine in contrast to the phony check and balances of a state system, where all the alleged “balancing” agencies are in the hands of one monopoly government. Indeed, given the monopoly “protection service” of a state, what is there to prevent a state from using its monopoly channels of coercion to extort money from the public? What are the checks and limits of the state? None, except for the extremely difficult course of revolution against a power with all of the guns in its hands. In fact, the state provides an easy, legitimated channel for crime and aggression, since it has its very being in the crime of tax theft, and the coerced monopoly of “protection.” It is the state, indeed, that functions as a mighty “protection racket” on a giant and massive scale. It is the state that says: “Pay us for your ‘protection’ or else.” In the light of the massive and inherent activities of the state, the danger of a “protection racket” emerging from one or more private police agencies is relatively small indeed.
Moreover, it must be emphasized that a crucial element in the power of the state is its legitimacy in the eyes of the majority of the public, the fact that after centuries of propaganda, the depredations of the state are looked upon rather as benevolent services. Taxation is generally not seen as theft, nor war as mass murder, nor conscription as slavery. Should a private police agency turn outlaw, should “Prudential” become a protection racket, it would then lack the social legitimacy which the state has managed to accrue to itself over the centuries. “Prudential” would be seen by all as bandits, rather than as legitimate or divinely appointed “sovereigns” bent on promoting the “common good” or the “general welfare.” And lacking such legitimacy, “Prudential” would have to face the wrath of the public and the defense and retaliation of the other private defense agencies, the police and courts, on the free market. Given these inherent checks and limits, a successful transformation from a free society to bandit rule becomes most unlikely. Indeed, historically, it has been very difficult for a state to arise to supplant a stateless society; usually, it has come about through external conquest rather than by evolution from within a society.
Within the anarchist camp, there has been much dispute on whether the private courts would have to be bound by a basic, common law code. Ingenious attempts have been made to work out a system where the laws or standards of decision-making by the courts would differ completely from one to another.7 But in my view all would have to abide by the basic law code, in particular, prohibition of aggression against person and property, in order to fulfill our definition of anarchism as a system which provides no legal sanction for such aggression. Suppose, for example, that one group of people in society holds that all redheads are demons who deserve to be shot on sight. Suppose that Jones, one of this group, shoots Smith, a redhead. Suppose that Smith or his heir presses charges in a court, but that Jones’s court, in philosophic agreement with Jones, finds him innocent therefore. It seems to me that in order to be considered legitimate, any court would have to follow the basic libertarian law code of the inviolate right of person and property. For otherwise, courts might legally subscribe to a code which sanctions such aggression in various cases, and which to that extent would violate the definition of anarchism and introduce, if not the state, then a strong element of statishness or legalized aggression into the society.
But again I see no insuperable difficulties here. For in that case, anarchists, in agitating for their creed, will simply include in their agitation the idea of a general libertarian law code as part and parcel of the anarchist creed of abolition of legalized aggression against person or property in the society.
In contrast to the general law code, other aspects of court decisions could legitimately vary in accordance with the market or the wishes of the clients; for example, the language the cases will be conducted in, the number of judges to be involved, and so on.
There are other problems of the basic law code which there is no time to go into here: for example, the definition of just property titles or the question of legitimate punishment of convicted offenders — though the latter problem of course exists in statist legal systems as well.8 The basic point, however, is that the state is not needed to arrive at legal principles or their elaboration: indeed, much of the common law, the law merchant, admiralty law, and private law in general, grew up apart from the state, by judges not making the law but finding it on the basis of agreed-upon principles derived either from custom or reason.9 The idea that the state is needed to make law is as much a myth as that the state is needed to supply postal or police services.
Enough has been said here, I believe, to indicate that an anarchist system for settling disputes would be both viable and self-subsistent: that once adopted, it could work and continue indefinitely. How to arrive at that system is of course a very different problem, but certainly at the very least it will not likely come about unless people are convinced of its workability, are convinced, in short, that the state is not a necessary evil.
[Murray Rothbard delivered this talk 32 years ago today at the American Society for Political and Legal Philosophy (ASPLP), Washington, DC: December 28, 1974. It was first published in The Libertarian Forum, volume 7.1, January 1975, available in PDF and ePub.]
2024.05.14 06:21 peoplearetiring This girl, I barely know at the party, was straight up complaining
She was invited to a birthday party but has a diet. Foods were being served to anybody at no cost, but all she did was bitch about how there were no foods available for her to eat because of her diet.
We were super close to a mall and restaurants which she could have gotten her own food there. People are seriously so ungrateful.
If you have a problem, please don’t come to the party or at the very least, get your own food.
submitted by peoplearetiring to Vent [link] [comments]
We were super close to a mall and restaurants which she could have gotten her own food there. People are seriously so ungrateful.
If you have a problem, please don’t come to the party or at the very least, get your own food.
2024.05.14 06:01 Choice_Evidence1983 AITAH for separating from my husband because he refused to get a vasectomy?
I am NOT OOP, OOP is u/AdhesivenessMurky204
Originally posted to AITAH
AITAH for separating from my husband because he refused to get a vasectomy?
Thanks to u/queenlegolas and u/Direct-Caterpillar77 for suggesting this BoRU
Editor’s Note: added paragraph breaks for readability
Trigger Warnings: PTSD, mentions of abortion, domestic abuse, verbal abuse, sexual assault, rape
Original Post: April 28, 2024
My husband (28M, who I will call Jack) and I (27F) have been together for 4 years, we have 2 young children and I am pregnant again. I have been pregnant for what feels like most of our relationship. I got pregnant 4 months into our relationship. We got married a month before our daughter’s 1st birthday and ended up with a honeymoon baby. After our son was born, I talked to my OB and she put me on birth control and I have been taking it militantly.
My daughter is now 3 and my son is 2. A little over a month ago I discovered I am pregnant again, despite taking my birth control religiously. Abortion is banned in my state, and the pregnancy was discovered too far along to attempt to obtain one out of state. While Jack and I were nervous, we also love being parents and decided that 3 young kids would be a challenge, but 3 was a good number for us. Then we went in for the first ultrasound and got some unexpected news - it’s twins.
Things have been tough financially, and while we were stressed but excited for a third child, we were not expecting a third and fourth child. Beyond the finances, I am the primary caretaker and I know that twins is going to be a lot, three children under 5 is already a lot, but 4 children under 5 is going to be really really difficult for me. Physically, I am tired of being pregnant. I’ve been pregnant or breastfeeding the majority of our relationship. It’s exhausting, it feels awful, and I don’t recognize my body anymore.
Four children is enough. I don’t want more. I told Jack that I was done with pregnancy, I’ve been pregnant enough, I’ve been experimenting with different types of birth control for over a decade and I still can’t stop getting pregnant, abortion isn’t a valid option where we live, we need something more permanent. He agreed, and suggested an IUD, I told him no - if it did fail then it could cause an ectopic pregnancy which could kill me, especially where we live. I’ve had both control fail me multiple times already and I’m not taking the chance, so I suggested a vasectomy. He was not open to the idea, and was even upset that I suggested it and told me I should get my tubes tied. I told him a tubal ligation is a much bigger surgery and I could be recovering for weeks during which time I wouldn’t be able to work or take care of our 4 young children, but he could ice his balls for a day or two and be done with it. He told me that not getting pregnant was ultimately my responsibility, and topped it off by saying “that’s what your body your choice means, YOUR body, so YOU choose.” That’s when it went from a discussion to a full blown fight.
See, when I was 19 I had another birth control failure with my boyfriend at the time (who I will call Tom). I wanted an abortion, Tom did not because he was opposed. I told him I was getting the abortion since it was my body and my choice, and Tom said some horrible things to me, including threatening me. I broke up with him and got the abortion. In response, Tom ended up following me one night and attacking me. I don’t want to go into detail but it was horrible, and he ended up going to prison for a number of charges related to the attack. Not only do I have a number of scars and some long lasting physical effects, but I have PTSD as well.
Jack knows about my history and diagnosis, and has known from the beginning. I have a pretty prominent facial scar so I was upfront about it early on in our dating. Jack always presented himself as very pro-choice, so I was shocked that he would say that. I got really emotional and started crying and shouting, and it turned into a full-blown fight.
Eventually I said that birth control is a two-way street and so far I’ve been the only one managing it and he said “and now we have 2 kids and 2 more coming, great job.” I told him he sounded like Tom and he got super pissed, basically said how dare you compare me to him, and maybe he might want kids one day with someone who doesn’t compare him to her felon ex-boyfriend. I was stunned and horrified. I said “well then let’s not waste any fucking time,”then packed up myself and the kids and drove to my parents place.
It’s been about a week since the fight. I’ve spoken with Jack a few times and he has since apologized and said he was out of line and was speaking from a place of anxiety after finding out about the twins, but also that I said things that were out of line and it was wrong of me to insist he undergo a medical procedure. He said that can move on from the things I said and that he wants to see his children and be a family again. I told him no, that I didn’t want to “move on” from the things he said to me. I can’t just get over that and I think we need space apart. Jack was upset by this and while we talked I brought up getting a separation agreement to manage custody and finances while we figure things out. He did not like this suggestion, said we didn’t need to pull the courts into this.
I haven’t told a lot of people about what’s happening but my family and a couple close friends. My sister and best friend both think I should throw the whole man away, but my brother (who is the only other one married with kids) thinks that I’m being extreme for what sums up to a fight between two scared people who both said nasty things. My mom is trying to be supportive but is occasionally reminding me that I “don’t want to be a single mother of 4” and telling me not to let my PTSD drive my decisions, while my dad is being completely unhelpful (he thinks jokes are helpful - like calling me Doorknob because I “can’t stop getting knocked up”, telling me to let the oven cool down, real knee-slappers). I don’t know what to do. My kids are happy to be at grandma and grandpas house but they miss their daddy, I’m 4 months pregnant and already uncomfortable as hell, I wish I could go back to being a happy little family but I’m so hung up on the things he said in that fight. Am I destroying my family over one bad night? Am I being unreasonable for asking my husband to get a vasectomy?
Edit: I've noticed a lot of people recommending condoms. I have gotten pregnant with condoms twice. Our second child and my first pregnancy were both conceived using condoms properly (correct fit, put on correctly, single use, not expired, no breaks, etc). I do not trust condoms enough to not fail a third time. I know the failure rate is supposedly small, but it's not personally small enough for me. Edit to the edit: I'm sorry, I didn't expect so many comments so fast and I can't keep up with them. By the first pregnancy I mean the pregnancy with Tom. With Jack I was on the patch when I got pregnant with our daughter, condoms with our son, and the pill with the twins. So far I haven't ever suspected that Jack has tampered with our birth control and always presumed that I'm a fertile Myrtle.
I recognize the comments and just want people to know I'm seeing the suggestion. I'm not dismissing it, but the thought of it is deeply upsetting and has provoked a lot of anxiety. I just wanted to make it clear that if the suggestion is only based on the condoms, that the condom pregnancies were with two different partners. While I know I always used condoms properly with Tom, I do believe that Tom could have been fully capable of sabotaging the condoms.
AITAH has no consensus bot, OOP received mixed reactions of NTAs and YTAs
Relevant Comments
deepsleepsheepmeep: NTA. Your husband is though. Your body has already been through A LOT. A tubal ligation is a serious surgery and you are right about being out of commission for a while when recovering. If he is more concerned with an imaginary future wife than he is for you, I don’t think there is much hope for this marriage.
We have 4 close friends who all got vasectomies. None of them bitched about it like your wimp of a husband. We actually had fun vasectomy themed parties for them.
On the off chance he does end up getting a vasectomy, make sure to do the follow up appointments. One of the vasectomy fab 4 did not follow through and ended up with a post-vasectomy baby.
Update: AITAH for separating from my husband because he refused to get a vasectomy?: May 3, 2024
I didn’t expect so many comments and literally couldn’t go through them all. It seemed like the majority of people said I was NTA but I did get a lot of YTAs telling me I was trying to force him to get a medical procedure and telling me to get one instead. Besides already addressing my reasonings why I made my request in the original post (which I want you to read with real "per my last email" energy), I in no way am *forcing* him to have a medical procedure, but I am saying that I do not want to be with a partner who is not willing to be snipped. This is an issue of compatibility. The number of children you want, the methods of birth control you’re willing to use, those are issues of compatibility and a reason relationships end all the time. If he doesn’t want to be sterilized that’s fine, but then that means that we’re not compatible anymore, since it means he wants more children and I don’t. Beyond that there were some YTA comments and some DMs that were just nasty, calling me a murderer and saying my body is a cemetery. Sadly enough, I expected those types of comments, because I know there are a lot of Toms out in the world.
First I wanted to address a couple things that kept coming up, because last post turned into thousands of comments that all said about 5 different things, so to avoid my inbox becoming another echo chamber:
I also am not going to mince words: tubal ligations are *less* effective than vasectomies with a *much higher* likelihood of an ectopic pregnancy. Ectopic pregnancy can *kill me*. In fact I got a PM from a woman who is a fellow fertile Myrtle who had an ectopic after a tubal. I am rejecting birth control options that, if they fail, would lead to my likely death. I don’t want to be pregnant again but I also don’t want to die and leave my children motherless, and in no way should anyone assume that traveling to another state to obtain an emergency abortion will continue to be an option in the future - we live in scary times, and Gilead is a real possibility. The comments seemed to have the vibe that people think that ligations are magically more effective than vasectomies and vasectomies are more of a whisper of sterility than an actual sterilization method so for those in the back VASECTOMIES ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN TUBAL LIGATIONS, FULL STOP. So I really need y’all to shut up about it.
So to get down to the nitty gritty of the real update: since the last time I posted, Jack and I have sat down together and had a real come to Jesus talk. I’m not going to go through the whole breakdown, but it basically boiled down to this: it’s the vasectomy, but it’s more than the vasectomy. It was wrong of me to compare him to Tom but it was wronger of him to weaponize my trauma against me in a very malicious way. The way he intentionally used the same language my abuser used in an effort to hurt me was not acceptable and damaged the trust between us. He agreed it was not acceptable and said that in the aftermath he was horrified and ashamed his own words, and that he (as an explanation and not an excuse) kind of snapped under the stress. Oh and what he said about his “next wife” was not an indication of him not being committed to me but was because he felt hurt and wanted to hurt me back. He has apologized numerous times and seems to feel genuinely bad about it.
As for the separation, I am still going forward with it. I need space and time and I need to take that before the babies come. I am still staying with my parents who, for the record, are not sick of me or the kids. We’re a tight knit family, I only moved out when I moved in with Jack, and my sister moved out about a year ago so they have been empty nesting, and my mom doesn’t like that we live “too far” (an hour) away. What I have realized with space and time is how deeply triggering it was, in a way that I cannot explain to those without PTSD from DV, those who know will know. It’s deeply unsettled me and I’m having a hard time “getting over it” so to speak. There is now a lot of fear of my husband that was never there before and it’s going to take a lot to repair that trust and sense of safety. I cannot make a decision while I’m in this space, and I am addressing this with my personal therapist. Overall, I told him that if he wanted to stay married to me I needed two things from him: marriage counseling and a vasectomy, and even then I still cannot guarantee him anything. He understands, but I do not know what will happen with the vasectomy right now, we focused more on talking about the fight, but he is very aware that it's now a dealbreaker. And we have a marriage counseling appointment set up for next week. I'm hoping that counseling will bring some clarity to the situation, and in the mean time for the next couple months I'm focusing on giving my kids lots of cuddles and preparing myself for two new babies to come into my world, with or without Jack.
Additional information from OOP on her relationships
submitted by Choice_Evidence1983 to BestofRedditorUpdates [link] [comments]
Originally posted to AITAH
AITAH for separating from my husband because he refused to get a vasectomy?
Thanks to u/queenlegolas and u/Direct-Caterpillar77 for suggesting this BoRU
Editor’s Note: added paragraph breaks for readability
Trigger Warnings: PTSD, mentions of abortion, domestic abuse, verbal abuse, sexual assault, rape
My husband (28M, who I will call Jack) and I (27F) have been together for 4 years, we have 2 young children and I am pregnant again. I have been pregnant for what feels like most of our relationship. I got pregnant 4 months into our relationship. We got married a month before our daughter’s 1st birthday and ended up with a honeymoon baby. After our son was born, I talked to my OB and she put me on birth control and I have been taking it militantly.
My daughter is now 3 and my son is 2. A little over a month ago I discovered I am pregnant again, despite taking my birth control religiously. Abortion is banned in my state, and the pregnancy was discovered too far along to attempt to obtain one out of state. While Jack and I were nervous, we also love being parents and decided that 3 young kids would be a challenge, but 3 was a good number for us. Then we went in for the first ultrasound and got some unexpected news - it’s twins.
Things have been tough financially, and while we were stressed but excited for a third child, we were not expecting a third and fourth child. Beyond the finances, I am the primary caretaker and I know that twins is going to be a lot, three children under 5 is already a lot, but 4 children under 5 is going to be really really difficult for me. Physically, I am tired of being pregnant. I’ve been pregnant or breastfeeding the majority of our relationship. It’s exhausting, it feels awful, and I don’t recognize my body anymore.
Four children is enough. I don’t want more. I told Jack that I was done with pregnancy, I’ve been pregnant enough, I’ve been experimenting with different types of birth control for over a decade and I still can’t stop getting pregnant, abortion isn’t a valid option where we live, we need something more permanent. He agreed, and suggested an IUD, I told him no - if it did fail then it could cause an ectopic pregnancy which could kill me, especially where we live. I’ve had both control fail me multiple times already and I’m not taking the chance, so I suggested a vasectomy. He was not open to the idea, and was even upset that I suggested it and told me I should get my tubes tied. I told him a tubal ligation is a much bigger surgery and I could be recovering for weeks during which time I wouldn’t be able to work or take care of our 4 young children, but he could ice his balls for a day or two and be done with it. He told me that not getting pregnant was ultimately my responsibility, and topped it off by saying “that’s what your body your choice means, YOUR body, so YOU choose.” That’s when it went from a discussion to a full blown fight.
See, when I was 19 I had another birth control failure with my boyfriend at the time (who I will call Tom). I wanted an abortion, Tom did not because he was opposed. I told him I was getting the abortion since it was my body and my choice, and Tom said some horrible things to me, including threatening me. I broke up with him and got the abortion. In response, Tom ended up following me one night and attacking me. I don’t want to go into detail but it was horrible, and he ended up going to prison for a number of charges related to the attack. Not only do I have a number of scars and some long lasting physical effects, but I have PTSD as well.
Jack knows about my history and diagnosis, and has known from the beginning. I have a pretty prominent facial scar so I was upfront about it early on in our dating. Jack always presented himself as very pro-choice, so I was shocked that he would say that. I got really emotional and started crying and shouting, and it turned into a full-blown fight.
Eventually I said that birth control is a two-way street and so far I’ve been the only one managing it and he said “and now we have 2 kids and 2 more coming, great job.” I told him he sounded like Tom and he got super pissed, basically said how dare you compare me to him, and maybe he might want kids one day with someone who doesn’t compare him to her felon ex-boyfriend. I was stunned and horrified. I said “well then let’s not waste any fucking time,”then packed up myself and the kids and drove to my parents place.
It’s been about a week since the fight. I’ve spoken with Jack a few times and he has since apologized and said he was out of line and was speaking from a place of anxiety after finding out about the twins, but also that I said things that were out of line and it was wrong of me to insist he undergo a medical procedure. He said that can move on from the things I said and that he wants to see his children and be a family again. I told him no, that I didn’t want to “move on” from the things he said to me. I can’t just get over that and I think we need space apart. Jack was upset by this and while we talked I brought up getting a separation agreement to manage custody and finances while we figure things out. He did not like this suggestion, said we didn’t need to pull the courts into this.
I haven’t told a lot of people about what’s happening but my family and a couple close friends. My sister and best friend both think I should throw the whole man away, but my brother (who is the only other one married with kids) thinks that I’m being extreme for what sums up to a fight between two scared people who both said nasty things. My mom is trying to be supportive but is occasionally reminding me that I “don’t want to be a single mother of 4” and telling me not to let my PTSD drive my decisions, while my dad is being completely unhelpful (he thinks jokes are helpful - like calling me Doorknob because I “can’t stop getting knocked up”, telling me to let the oven cool down, real knee-slappers). I don’t know what to do. My kids are happy to be at grandma and grandpas house but they miss their daddy, I’m 4 months pregnant and already uncomfortable as hell, I wish I could go back to being a happy little family but I’m so hung up on the things he said in that fight. Am I destroying my family over one bad night? Am I being unreasonable for asking my husband to get a vasectomy?
Edit: I've noticed a lot of people recommending condoms. I have gotten pregnant with condoms twice. Our second child and my first pregnancy were both conceived using condoms properly (correct fit, put on correctly, single use, not expired, no breaks, etc). I do not trust condoms enough to not fail a third time. I know the failure rate is supposedly small, but it's not personally small enough for me. Edit to the edit: I'm sorry, I didn't expect so many comments so fast and I can't keep up with them. By the first pregnancy I mean the pregnancy with Tom. With Jack I was on the patch when I got pregnant with our daughter, condoms with our son, and the pill with the twins. So far I haven't ever suspected that Jack has tampered with our birth control and always presumed that I'm a fertile Myrtle.
I recognize the comments and just want people to know I'm seeing the suggestion. I'm not dismissing it, but the thought of it is deeply upsetting and has provoked a lot of anxiety. I just wanted to make it clear that if the suggestion is only based on the condoms, that the condom pregnancies were with two different partners. While I know I always used condoms properly with Tom, I do believe that Tom could have been fully capable of sabotaging the condoms.
AITAH has no consensus bot, OOP received mixed reactions of NTAs and YTAs
Relevant Comments
deepsleepsheepmeep: NTA. Your husband is though. Your body has already been through A LOT. A tubal ligation is a serious surgery and you are right about being out of commission for a while when recovering. If he is more concerned with an imaginary future wife than he is for you, I don’t think there is much hope for this marriage.
We have 4 close friends who all got vasectomies. None of them bitched about it like your wimp of a husband. We actually had fun vasectomy themed parties for them.
On the off chance he does end up getting a vasectomy, make sure to do the follow up appointments. One of the vasectomy fab 4 did not follow through and ended up with a post-vasectomy baby.
OOP: Thank you, I feel like this is a lot of what has been so upsetting has been that he's thinking about some imaginary future wife when I'm right here, his actual wife, the mother of his children. It's like he's already imagining a future without me.
Update: AITAH for separating from my husband because he refused to get a vasectomy?: May 3, 2024
I didn’t expect so many comments and literally couldn’t go through them all. It seemed like the majority of people said I was NTA but I did get a lot of YTAs telling me I was trying to force him to get a medical procedure and telling me to get one instead. Besides already addressing my reasonings why I made my request in the original post (which I want you to read with real "per my last email" energy), I in no way am *forcing* him to have a medical procedure, but I am saying that I do not want to be with a partner who is not willing to be snipped. This is an issue of compatibility. The number of children you want, the methods of birth control you’re willing to use, those are issues of compatibility and a reason relationships end all the time. If he doesn’t want to be sterilized that’s fine, but then that means that we’re not compatible anymore, since it means he wants more children and I don’t. Beyond that there were some YTA comments and some DMs that were just nasty, calling me a murderer and saying my body is a cemetery. Sadly enough, I expected those types of comments, because I know there are a lot of Toms out in the world.
First I wanted to address a couple things that kept coming up, because last post turned into thousands of comments that all said about 5 different things, so to avoid my inbox becoming another echo chamber:
You’re 100% going to have a C-section anyway so just get a tubal while giving birth.No, I’m not 100% going to have a C-section anyway. Twins are not an automatic C-section. With my birth history there is no reason to presume that a C-section is in my future. My OB agrees, and has discussed the possibility as doctors have to do but also said that based on my past two birth experiences, I'm a "perfect candidate" for vaginal delivery.
I also am not going to mince words: tubal ligations are *less* effective than vasectomies with a *much higher* likelihood of an ectopic pregnancy. Ectopic pregnancy can *kill me*. In fact I got a PM from a woman who is a fellow fertile Myrtle who had an ectopic after a tubal. I am rejecting birth control options that, if they fail, would lead to my likely death. I don’t want to be pregnant again but I also don’t want to die and leave my children motherless, and in no way should anyone assume that traveling to another state to obtain an emergency abortion will continue to be an option in the future - we live in scary times, and Gilead is a real possibility. The comments seemed to have the vibe that people think that ligations are magically more effective than vasectomies and vasectomies are more of a whisper of sterility than an actual sterilization method so for those in the back VASECTOMIES ARE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN TUBAL LIGATIONS, FULL STOP. So I really need y’all to shut up about it.
Go to another state and obtain an abortion anyway.I appreciate the personal offers to help I received in DMs deeply, but no. I’m in my 2nd trimester, which I know is still legal in some places, however I am at a point in my pregnancy where I personally as an individual do not feel comfortable obtaining an abortion, considering I would be *even farther* along by the time I could travel (which is not only finances, but logistics as well). I am 16 weeks pregnant now, these babies aren’t just clusters of cells to me anymore, and I’m not going to expand on that since it’s not up for debate.
Why not adoption?With love and respect to everyone who has gone through adoption in all its aspects, adoption is absolutely not for me. This is a thought process I already went through 8 years ago, and now that I’m a mother and not a scared teenager I know it’s even less for me. I personally could not go through with it and come out the other side intact. Going through a full pregnancy, having my babies, and then being separated from them would break me.
Leave him and give him full custody of the twinsNo. Because going through a full pregnancy, having my babies, and then being separated from them would break me. Jesus, some of y’all.
Just have a sexless marriage.No. I love banging my husband, obviously lol. I don't want to be in a sexless marriage and anyone who has been to an abstinence-only high school knows that abstinence is not the way lol. There were a lot of comments assuming I would be perfectly fine withholding sex from my husband and having na dead bedroom, and I wouldn't. I have a sex drive. I'm going to want to bang my husband. Wanting to have sex with your spouse is *normal*.
What you would do about birth control if you divorced and dated in the future?I’m not thinking of dating anyone else right now, because I’m thinking more about saving my actual marriage instead of an imaginary relationship. And if theoretically I did, I would probably seek out a partner who was snipped or was ready to be to be honestly, or a woman. I’m bisexual so there’s a very good chance that my future partner wouldn’t have the right parts to knock me up anyway lol.
Jack is sabotaging your birth controlI clarified my methods in the original post (as per my last email), but I did want to address this because it came up a LOT. I don’t have reason to believe that Jack sabotaged my birth control. A number of other fertile Myrtles showed up and brought up they or their family members repeated pregnancies in the face of birth control, including tubals. Accusing my husband of reproductive coercion for no reason other than I keep getting pregnant is a big leap and a weighty accusation. I am not the only fertile Myrtle out there, there's a reason there's a whole term for it.
Your husband is a narcissist, abuser, psychopath, and he does no childcareMy husband and I historically have a really healthy and loving relationship outside of this fight. In fact, this fight is the first time we’ve really had a fight, we’ve only ever had little arguments that we’ve been able to talk through. He’s an active father, the reason that I do the majority of childcare is due to circumstance between maternity leaves, our job schedules and the fact that I breastfed my babies. Someone also presumed I’m the breadwinner, which isn’t quite true. Jack makes more than me, but we do not have deeply significant differences in our incomes. When he is home he does his fair share of cleaning and cooking (arguably more than me at times), and parenting. That being said, the things he said in the heat of the moment were deeply concerning, and we’re addressing that together.
So to get down to the nitty gritty of the real update: since the last time I posted, Jack and I have sat down together and had a real come to Jesus talk. I’m not going to go through the whole breakdown, but it basically boiled down to this: it’s the vasectomy, but it’s more than the vasectomy. It was wrong of me to compare him to Tom but it was wronger of him to weaponize my trauma against me in a very malicious way. The way he intentionally used the same language my abuser used in an effort to hurt me was not acceptable and damaged the trust between us. He agreed it was not acceptable and said that in the aftermath he was horrified and ashamed his own words, and that he (as an explanation and not an excuse) kind of snapped under the stress. Oh and what he said about his “next wife” was not an indication of him not being committed to me but was because he felt hurt and wanted to hurt me back. He has apologized numerous times and seems to feel genuinely bad about it.
As for the separation, I am still going forward with it. I need space and time and I need to take that before the babies come. I am still staying with my parents who, for the record, are not sick of me or the kids. We’re a tight knit family, I only moved out when I moved in with Jack, and my sister moved out about a year ago so they have been empty nesting, and my mom doesn’t like that we live “too far” (an hour) away. What I have realized with space and time is how deeply triggering it was, in a way that I cannot explain to those without PTSD from DV, those who know will know. It’s deeply unsettled me and I’m having a hard time “getting over it” so to speak. There is now a lot of fear of my husband that was never there before and it’s going to take a lot to repair that trust and sense of safety. I cannot make a decision while I’m in this space, and I am addressing this with my personal therapist. Overall, I told him that if he wanted to stay married to me I needed two things from him: marriage counseling and a vasectomy, and even then I still cannot guarantee him anything. He understands, but I do not know what will happen with the vasectomy right now, we focused more on talking about the fight, but he is very aware that it's now a dealbreaker. And we have a marriage counseling appointment set up for next week. I'm hoping that counseling will bring some clarity to the situation, and in the mean time for the next couple months I'm focusing on giving my kids lots of cuddles and preparing myself for two new babies to come into my world, with or without Jack.
Additional information from OOP on her relationships
OOP: I've been through a trial to convict my ex-boyfriend of trying to kill me because of an abortion in a deep red, deeply religious area. I've definitely heard worse things, and I typically have pretty thick skin. That being said, I am pregnant and pretty emotional, so it's not the best experience. That being said, I do appreciate the level-headed comments when I see them through the sea of comments kind of saying the same stuff over and over. I'm not reading a lot of them if what I can see in the comment notification starts off nasty, so a lot of it is just inbox white noise. My favorites are the ones that start off with "I'm not going to read that BUT..." and I just think lol same. Like you don't want to read my post but expect me to read your comment that was made without even reading the situation? lol nope. And there are a lot of people conflating "providing someone with a hard choice" with "forcing someone into a medical procedure" and it just makes wading through for the actually helpful comments more tiring. Thank you though, I very much appreciate the kindness. Sorry, I've gotten so much of the same nonsense I guess I needed a little vent lol.OOP on wanting her husband to make a decision and be on the same page
OOP: I want to be honest with him about where I am emotionally because I want him to make an informed decision. While the vasectomy is a deal breaker, it's really my secondary concern. My primary concern is the way he acted during the fight and his intention exploitation of my trauma because he was mad and scared. I think that telling him "get the snip to stay with me" and then deciding to leave anyway because there are deeper issues and/or I don't feel safe anymore would be cruel. He deserves to have the full picture before he makes a choice, doesn't he?
If he doesn't want the vasectomy, that's his choice. It's not what I want, but it is what it is. If he wants to call it quits at 4 kids, then it is what it is and if he secretly wants to be the next Nick Cannon then it is what it is he should be free to do that. That is part of why I don't know where he is on the vasectomy right now and we didn't really discuss it much when we talked, I'm focusing on discussing the bigger issue for me which is trust and safety within the relationship. The only way for him to make an informed decision about whether or not he get a vasectomy is for him to have all the information about the situation. If that makes him want a vasectomy less, then it is what it is. It's not about making him want to have a vasectomy. It's about being on the same page.
DO NOT COMMENT IN LINKED POSTS OR MESSAGE OOPs – BoRU Rule #7
THIS IS A REPOST SUB - I AM NOT OOP
2024.05.14 06:01 AnnualStress5 AITA for going to my brother's wedding even though he uninvited our mom?
Is it too much to ask that this makes it onto the channel but that my family doesn't realize it's me?
Probably, but here we go.
Who: Mom, Brother, SIL (sister-in-law), Aunt, Uncle, Cousin, Dad, and me
When: between 2020 and 2022
Where: the beach and the mountains
What: a wedding
Why: true love ❤️
Our story goes way back to before the wedding in 2022 but after the engagement of Brother and SIL in 2020. It starts in 2021 on a week long vacation to the beach for Mom's 50th birthday. We were staying in a very picturesque condo with 3 separate bedrooms that had direct beach access and the unit was absolutely beautiful with the most amazing views off the patio. On this vacation were 6 people: Mom, Brother, SIL, Aunt, Cousin, and me. We were roomed in pairs: Brother and SIL, Aunt and Cousin, Mom and me. This vacation had been planned months in advance and Mom was so excited she planned out a week of fun activities including a sunset cruise to see dolphins, mini golfing, restaurants, of course beach time, and more.
It was supposed to be a lovely week that was unfortunately marred very quickly by a nasty fight. We arrived late on a Friday and were scheduled to be out by the following Friday. Sunday night after dinner there was a massive argument between SIL and I. I don't even remember all the details now. It culminated when she called me a brat and I called her a b**** and we stormed off to our separate rooms. From here there are 2 versions of the rest of the night.
Mom's Version: While I had a massive panic attack - because I'm Mentally Sick™ - Mom went to the bedroom where Brother and SIL were. She tried to talk to them and tell SIL that she was been very mean to me. She implored SIL to apologize to me, but SIL was being stubborn and refused to talk to me. Mom eventually left the room and came to help me calm down in our room.
SIL's Version: While I had a massive panic attach - because I'm Mentally Sick™ - Mom went to the bedroom where Brother and SIL were. SIL says that Mom started screaming at her and Brother calling them all sorts of nasty names and other terrible things. She even accused SIL of being an abusive person. Meanwhile, Brother was having an epileptic seizure on the bed due to the stress of it all. SIL started crying and having a panic attack of her own as well. Eventually, Mom left the room and came to help me calm down in our room.
I believe that there is some truth in both. I think Mom thinks she was talking nicely and that SIL was being a hard a** but she was coming across a lot louder and meaner than she thought. I also think that SIL was being a little stubborn but for good reason. If she had come out to talk to me I think the fight would have escalated further and the place would have burst into a ball of flames.
Regardless, SIL and Brother stayed in their room for the next day and a half. They only came out for food and water and didn't speak to anyone else. Aunt and Cousin tried to stay out of it but were very much in the middle and it put a bad stain on their vacation. Things cooled off by Wednesday (Mom's birthday) and we all got along mostly for the rest of the week. I apologized to SIL and she apologized to me and we've been good since then. Sadly, the same is not true for SIL, Brother, and Mom.
Throughout the following months things continued to deteriorate between Brother, SIL, and Mom. I don't know all of the details of what contributed to the downfall of their relationship. I do know that Mom continued to make wild accusations at them and then backtrack and try to apologize. This cycle continued up until the wedding.
There was one big accusation that Mom made during this time that was the nail in the coffin for her. She accused Brother of marrying SIL only because she was pregnant. What's absolutely crazy about this is that Brother proposed a year and half before the wedding. They also had their location and date reserved over a year before the wedding as well. So this wasn't even close to being a possibility, but it reallyyyyyy set off Brother and SIL.
While Mom initially got a Save the Date for the wedding, she did not receive a wedding invitation when they sent out the actual invitations. She was crushed by this news that everyone else in the family got an invitation and she, the mother of the groom, did not. Mom eventually started to tell those in the family who were going - primarily Aunt, Uncle, Dad, and I - that we shouldn't be going in solidarity with her. She said that we were "choosing sides" and "against her" because we still planned on going.
Here's the thing: Dad was officiating the wedding and Uncle was a groomsman. Also, Aunt and Uncle were supplying their homemade wine for the wedding. This left Aunt and I in a tricky spot where we wanted to support Mom while she was going through a rough time, but didn't want to skip the wedding. After all, why should we forfeit our spots when Mom kept doing things to dig herself a hole.
Are you ready for the cherry on top of this putrid mess of a wedding cake? SIL and Brother did end up inviting Mom to the wedding and sent an invitation. But they did so 2 weeks before the wedding with some stipulations. She had to sit in the back during the ceremony, she wasn't allowed to go to the reception, and her 28 year old boyfriend was not allowed to come. I think there were other things as well, but those are the main ones. This sent Mom into a frenzy where she continued to make more accusations at Brother and SIL for having the restrictions and not trusting her to behave. She also continued to accuse Aunt and I for taking sides after their "disgusting behavior."
I tried to talk Brother and SIL into inviting her and at least allowing her to come to the reception. I promised I wouldn't allow anything to happen and if something did I would take Mom out. All this to no avail.
Mom decided not to go the wedding. Her reason: she already had other plans that she didn't want to cancel. She reserved a cabin in the woods for some "me time" with her boyfriend and our half-sister. Yeah, not sure how that's "me time" but that ain't my business I suppose. *insert Kermit drinking tea*
I understand that she wanted to go to the cabin she had already paid for for a weekend away. I understand that this whole incident was traumatizing for her as well since she was being excluded from her only son's wedding. She still made the decision to not go though even with the conditions to her invitation.
At the end of the day though, it was a beautiful wedding. Everything went smoothly and though Aunt and I missed her quite a bit, we were able to have a wonderful time despite her absence.
I still stand by my choice to go to the wedding because it's not like me not going would stop the whole wedding. Nothing would have changed other than I would have missed out on a fun party and one of the most important events of my brother's life. However, I want to know what you guys think. Should I have gone? Should I have done something more to try to support my mom?
submitted by AnnualStress5 to CharlotteDobreYouTube [link] [comments]
Probably, but here we go.
Who: Mom, Brother, SIL (sister-in-law), Aunt, Uncle, Cousin, Dad, and me
When: between 2020 and 2022
Where: the beach and the mountains
What: a wedding
Why: true love ❤️
Our story goes way back to before the wedding in 2022 but after the engagement of Brother and SIL in 2020. It starts in 2021 on a week long vacation to the beach for Mom's 50th birthday. We were staying in a very picturesque condo with 3 separate bedrooms that had direct beach access and the unit was absolutely beautiful with the most amazing views off the patio. On this vacation were 6 people: Mom, Brother, SIL, Aunt, Cousin, and me. We were roomed in pairs: Brother and SIL, Aunt and Cousin, Mom and me. This vacation had been planned months in advance and Mom was so excited she planned out a week of fun activities including a sunset cruise to see dolphins, mini golfing, restaurants, of course beach time, and more.
It was supposed to be a lovely week that was unfortunately marred very quickly by a nasty fight. We arrived late on a Friday and were scheduled to be out by the following Friday. Sunday night after dinner there was a massive argument between SIL and I. I don't even remember all the details now. It culminated when she called me a brat and I called her a b**** and we stormed off to our separate rooms. From here there are 2 versions of the rest of the night.
Mom's Version: While I had a massive panic attack - because I'm Mentally Sick™ - Mom went to the bedroom where Brother and SIL were. She tried to talk to them and tell SIL that she was been very mean to me. She implored SIL to apologize to me, but SIL was being stubborn and refused to talk to me. Mom eventually left the room and came to help me calm down in our room.
SIL's Version: While I had a massive panic attach - because I'm Mentally Sick™ - Mom went to the bedroom where Brother and SIL were. SIL says that Mom started screaming at her and Brother calling them all sorts of nasty names and other terrible things. She even accused SIL of being an abusive person. Meanwhile, Brother was having an epileptic seizure on the bed due to the stress of it all. SIL started crying and having a panic attack of her own as well. Eventually, Mom left the room and came to help me calm down in our room.
I believe that there is some truth in both. I think Mom thinks she was talking nicely and that SIL was being a hard a** but she was coming across a lot louder and meaner than she thought. I also think that SIL was being a little stubborn but for good reason. If she had come out to talk to me I think the fight would have escalated further and the place would have burst into a ball of flames.
Regardless, SIL and Brother stayed in their room for the next day and a half. They only came out for food and water and didn't speak to anyone else. Aunt and Cousin tried to stay out of it but were very much in the middle and it put a bad stain on their vacation. Things cooled off by Wednesday (Mom's birthday) and we all got along mostly for the rest of the week. I apologized to SIL and she apologized to me and we've been good since then. Sadly, the same is not true for SIL, Brother, and Mom.
Throughout the following months things continued to deteriorate between Brother, SIL, and Mom. I don't know all of the details of what contributed to the downfall of their relationship. I do know that Mom continued to make wild accusations at them and then backtrack and try to apologize. This cycle continued up until the wedding.
There was one big accusation that Mom made during this time that was the nail in the coffin for her. She accused Brother of marrying SIL only because she was pregnant. What's absolutely crazy about this is that Brother proposed a year and half before the wedding. They also had their location and date reserved over a year before the wedding as well. So this wasn't even close to being a possibility, but it reallyyyyyy set off Brother and SIL.
While Mom initially got a Save the Date for the wedding, she did not receive a wedding invitation when they sent out the actual invitations. She was crushed by this news that everyone else in the family got an invitation and she, the mother of the groom, did not. Mom eventually started to tell those in the family who were going - primarily Aunt, Uncle, Dad, and I - that we shouldn't be going in solidarity with her. She said that we were "choosing sides" and "against her" because we still planned on going.
Here's the thing: Dad was officiating the wedding and Uncle was a groomsman. Also, Aunt and Uncle were supplying their homemade wine for the wedding. This left Aunt and I in a tricky spot where we wanted to support Mom while she was going through a rough time, but didn't want to skip the wedding. After all, why should we forfeit our spots when Mom kept doing things to dig herself a hole.
Are you ready for the cherry on top of this putrid mess of a wedding cake? SIL and Brother did end up inviting Mom to the wedding and sent an invitation. But they did so 2 weeks before the wedding with some stipulations. She had to sit in the back during the ceremony, she wasn't allowed to go to the reception, and her 28 year old boyfriend was not allowed to come. I think there were other things as well, but those are the main ones. This sent Mom into a frenzy where she continued to make more accusations at Brother and SIL for having the restrictions and not trusting her to behave. She also continued to accuse Aunt and I for taking sides after their "disgusting behavior."
I tried to talk Brother and SIL into inviting her and at least allowing her to come to the reception. I promised I wouldn't allow anything to happen and if something did I would take Mom out. All this to no avail.
Mom decided not to go the wedding. Her reason: she already had other plans that she didn't want to cancel. She reserved a cabin in the woods for some "me time" with her boyfriend and our half-sister. Yeah, not sure how that's "me time" but that ain't my business I suppose. *insert Kermit drinking tea*
I understand that she wanted to go to the cabin she had already paid for for a weekend away. I understand that this whole incident was traumatizing for her as well since she was being excluded from her only son's wedding. She still made the decision to not go though even with the conditions to her invitation.
At the end of the day though, it was a beautiful wedding. Everything went smoothly and though Aunt and I missed her quite a bit, we were able to have a wonderful time despite her absence.
I still stand by my choice to go to the wedding because it's not like me not going would stop the whole wedding. Nothing would have changed other than I would have missed out on a fun party and one of the most important events of my brother's life. However, I want to know what you guys think. Should I have gone? Should I have done something more to try to support my mom?
2024.05.14 06:00 Choice_Evidence1983 [New Update]: My family forgot to invite me to my grandparents funeral, but they are convinced I was there.
I am NOT OOP. OOP is u/justathrowaway282641
Originally posted to TwoHotTakes + her own page
Previous BoRU #1, BoRU #2, BoRU #3, BoRU #4, BoRU #5, BoRU 6
Editor’s Note: removed all relevant comments from older posts to make space for new updates. To see all older relevant comments, check out the previous BoRUs above
NEW UPDATE MARKED WITH ----
[New Update]: My family forgot to invite me to my grandparents funeral, but they are convinced I was there.
Trigger Warnings: death of loved ones, emotional manipulation, gaslighting, harassment
RECAP
Original Post: November 14, 2023**
I’m 30s F and caused a major blowup in my family and now none of them are talking to me. For background, my hometown is tiny (500pop) and when I went 2 hrs away to “the city” (15,000pop) for college, I loved it. I ended up staying after graduation, got married, and am happy here for a decade. I visit my home town every few weeks or so, call/text my family near daily, and thought we were all good. My family’s pretty small. Just my brother, mom, step dad, dad, step mom, and an aunt and uncle (mom’s siblings, never married, no kids). My mother's grandparents moved to my home town when I was in high school and were just down the street from us. My family has always been pretty drama free (aside from my parent’s divorce when I was a kid) and we’ve been happy. The step-parents were blended in perfectly and we share holidays and celebrations together. We’re all super close and just the perfect little group.
Ever since I moved away, the topic of “when am I moving back?” is constant, and I’ve always laughed it off. My home town has nothing. You have to drive 30 minutes for milk and bread. 60-90 minute one-way commutes to work. And floods shut down the main road every Easter. I love the town, but I love here more. I have parks, stores, community events, a library! The “city” is great. My family grumbles that I need to move back, but I refuse. I've been trying to encourage them to come here, especially since it's not an hour drive to the nearest medical facility.
Now to the meat and potatoes: both my grandparents passed over COVID times. They were both old and their health had been failing for a while so it was only a matter of time. Thankfully they didn’t catch it, but it made visiting them impossible and we survived mostly through FaceTime. They both passed in their sleep months apart. Both were cremated and kept securely under the kitchen sink for safe keeping while the pandemic blew over. That was 2021.
Well, I just found out my family held a funeral for them and scattered the ashes in my uncle’s maple grove over the summer. No one said a word to me about it. I’ve visited numerous times before and after and not one word. I only found out because my great uncle from California posted on Facebook a few weeks ago that he is entering hospice and was so thankful his health stayed strong enough for him to see his little sister (my grandma) to her final resting place. I was confused and called my mom. She was all “Yeah, the funeral we had in July, remember?” Ya’ll, I visited them for the 4th of July. They did the funeral the 8th. Not a word about it to me. They had planned this for months. Long enough to arrange for my infirm great uncle to be brought over from the other side of the country. Apparently, they talked about it “all the time”.
Everyone is convinced I was at the funeral. They SWEAR I was there. I can prove I wasn’t because Google’s got my location history. My hubby is baffled because he was supposedly there, too, but he had to work every weekend in June and July. Time clock doesn’t lie. My family straight up forgot about me. I’m hurt. I’m sad. And they’re pissed at me “for lying”. They think I’m causing drama over nothing. Nothing I say can convince them I wasn’t there. My family is united in this. And they’ve all put me “on read” until I admit I’m wrong. They think I’ve gone nuts. Either there’s a doppelganger of me attending events, or my family doesn’t want to admit they screwed up. I’m not backing down.
Thanksgiving is coming up, and my family’s been vague posting on Facebook about “forgetful kids” and mental health. It’s so freaking weird and I don’t know if I’m in bizzaro world or what’s going on. My mom’s best friend reached out and said I should just admit I was wrong and apologize, that I’m causing my mom so much unnecessary stress. I asked her if she’s checked everyone’s home for CO2. She hung up on me. (We checked our CO2, and our testers are running just fine.) I have reached out to a few people in my home town to check in on my folks, and they all say they're fine. I even spoke with the local volunteer fire fighter group to see if they could check for gas leaks. Not sure if they were able to.
I don’t know what to do. I’ve shown them the proof I wasn’t there, but they know I’m tech savvy and just assume I’ve Photoshopped it. Hubby says we need a break, and we’re going to be staying home this holiday season.
Edit: I don't know the update rules, so I'll post updates to my profile should anyone want them.
Update #1: November 27, 2023
Not sure how to do updates on posts, so figured I'd post anything on my profile. Folks have private messaged me and this will be easier I think?
It's 11/27 and Thanksgiving just happened. Hubby and I stayed home. We got a small turkey and made our own little thanksgiving. It was nice. We ate around noon, then watched a movie, and later sat outside with a bottle of wine to watch the sun set behind the trees and neighbor houses.
We usually take the day before off, drive to my folks, stay the night, and help with the Thanksgiving Day cooking. So it wasn't until Wednesday night that my mom broke the silence. Mom called and asked when I was showing up, and I told her we were staying home this year, but for them to have a happy Thanksgiving, and to give the rest of the family my love. She was quiet for a long time after I said that, and I think she eventually mumbled an "okay", or something, and hung up. It wasn't an angry hang up. Just a hang up. On Thanksgiving day, I sent a group "Happy Thanksgiving!" gif to our family group chat. I received a few "happy Thanksgiving"'s back. No one's said anything else. There's been no posts on Facebook.
Update #2: December 12, 2023
So, I think I mentioned in one of my comments that my dad and I usually talk on the phone every Sunday morning. We're both early risers so we'd chat over our morning coffees and watch the sunrise. Him and I haven't really spoken since this all went down and it's been tough. I'm used to talking to him, you know?
Well, I was sitting outside in my usual spot, watching the sun rise and freezing my butt off, and he called me. I'm not entirely sure how to describe the emotions I felt. It was a mix of panic, hope, terror, happiness, and dread. I ended up answering because I just had to know what he wanted. It was an awkward conversation. He didn't address the current "drama", but instead tiptoed around the situation with all the grace of an cow on stilts. For instance, a simple "How are you doing?" Type question was answered with a "Not good." And the whole conversation would stall out for a bit because he knew why I wasn't doing well. So we ended up talking about the weather, the various winter birds we'd seen in our feeders, and the Christmas decorations around town. Things like that.
Eventually he asked if we were coming out for Christmas, and sounded sad when I told him we weren't. He asked if him and step mom could come visit us instead, and I told him it wasn't a good idea this year. That hubby and I were going to spend a quiet holiday together. I let him know he should be receiving some gifts at his PO Box any day now, so to please pick them up from the post office and put them under the family tree for everyone. He said he'd ship ours to us as well.
And that was pretty much it. No crazy drama to report. The only posts on Facebook have been the usual Christmas excitement ones, countdowns, photos of Santa, silly gift ideas, photos of company Christmas parties.
On a personal note: Hubby and I are doing alright. Our health is good, our spirits high, and we're as solid as ever. We each got Christmas bonus' at our jobs, so we're excited about that. They're not large, but we're happy to have them. We have also done advent calendars for the first time ever. I got him a Lego one, and he got me a hot chocolate one. We're going to do the calendars again next year. Maybe make a tradition out of it.
Everyone please have a safe and happy holidays.
Inheritance: December 16, 2023
I've received a lot - A LOT - of messages and private DMs urging me to check into inheritance and such. I'm really touched a lot of Internet strangers are worried about me and I wanted to ensure everyone that inheritance is most likely not an issue here. I'd almost be relieved if it was, because then it would at least make some sense. Money does weird things to people, you know?
No one in my family is wealthy by any means. After my grandparents' passed, their small estate was used to pay for their end of life expenses and remaining assets split up. Everyone directly related got an equal split (so excluded my dad and the step parents). I don't remember the exact amount I received, but it was around $5k if I recall. My brother gave me his share, too, so I could finish paying off my college debt while the interest freeze was active.
The great uncle from California has kids and grand kids, and great grandkids of his own, and also isn't wealthy. I think one of his kids makes good money doing something in finance, but I'm not entirely sure. I can't imagine he left us anything, as we hardly knew him. My mom, aunt, and uncle only met him a few times in their lives, and my brother and I even less. Grandma and him were close, but I don't think he liked my grandpa much.
Christmas: December 25, 2023
I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas. I've received a lot of support through my posts and I'm really grateful. Writing these updates have had a therapeutic effect.
Yesterday was Sunday, but I didn't answer my dad when he called. I just really didn't feel up to a pointless chat, so let it go to voicemail. He tried to reach me a few times throughout the day, but I didn't answer.
Our bestie last minute invited us over to his house for Christmas day lunch (today), so husband and I were busy all Christmas Eve making cookies, peanut brittle, and homemade suckers/hard candies for his kids. Mom tried to reach out as well, but I also ignored her calls.
We had a BLAST at lunch! Our friend's kids are a lot of fun to be around. They got some techy presents from their grandparents (Quest vr headset and steam decks, lucky little rascals) Friend and his wife aren't good with tech, while hubby and I are, so we helped get them set up while our friend played a good host to his folks and inlaws. The grandparents didn't realize that a Steam deck required a Steam account, so we got the kids all their own accounts set up, added them to our steam friends lists, and gifted them some games. We also bought them a few VR games for their headset, and they were off to the races with Beat Saber in no time.
As for my folks: My brother texted and asked if we could talk sometime tomorrow. I think me ignoring mom and dad has caused some kind of upset. Which they deserve.
Brother’s call: December 26, 2023
Spoke with my brother over the phone this morning.
For starters, he apologized for everything. Him and I are good (for now). For a bit of background, my brother and I are only 2 years apart. There weren't a lot of kids around growing up, so the two of us were often stuck doing stuff together. So we have a lot of shared interests and passions. He's been pretty silent on this whole matter, but still "part of the group", if you know what I mean. I think the thought of losing him out of my life was probably the most painful, because he's always been there. He was my rock until I met my husband. He's definitely a Mama's boy, though, so anything mom wanted, he made sure she got. I'm happy to have him back.
Without further ado, here's the story from the horse's mouth:
Mom apparently had a cancer scare late last year (which no one told me about, go figure), and dad had a stint put in his heart back in January (which I did know about). This "sense of mortality" has apparently lit a fire under Mom's ass to get me back home. But since I wasn't reacting to her passive aggressive hinting, she and step mom decided to go full crazy. My great uncle's health was bad, and he'd been asking about funeral arrangements for his sister (my grandma) for a while, so the moms decided to plan it. And use the event as a giant middle finger to me. They kept all the planning pretty hush-hush between the two of them, so no one on our side of the family actually knew about the funeral until like 2 weeks before. The moms said they'd invited hubby and I. No one thought anything about it. No one thought to mention, confirm, or check with me.
The plan was to scatter the ashes, say a few words, and maybe head to town for lunch. It was a small affair. The mom's didn't even tell the family that our great uncle was coming for it. Like I said, it was a small thing. Barely a footnote. No one thought it was odd because we're pretty chill people.
4th of July happens. Hubby and I are out. No one thought to mention it, as we were all busy celebrating and having a great time. Any time the topic of "this weekend" would start, the conversation would be quickly shifted by one of the moms. We went back home.
8th of July happens. Great uncle rolls into town with a few of his kids, grandkids, and great grandkids, and it's a surprise to everyone (but the moms). Everyone drives to the maple grove and the moms have brought a ton of food and stuff. It's a full blown party. No one on my side noticed I wasn't there, because there were so many extra faces outside the usual group. They did the spreading of the ashes, they said their words, they ate, they had a great time. It wasn't until our great uncle left, and all his side left with him, that they realized I wasn't there. And hadn't been there.
And this is where the crazy went up a notch. My brother says the moms were happy no one noticed I wasn't there. And that this was proof to everyone that I needed to move back because I was so easily forgotten about. Because none of them thought to reach out, right? They basically did a ton of guilt tripping manipulation bullshit and it made everyone upset at me for not showing up. Somehow it was my fault for being excluded. So suddenly everyone was on their side with "sticking it to me".
But then a few months went by, and tempers cooled, and then I guess the horror of it set in. Followed by the shame, but by then they were "in too deep". How do you undo something like this? And since I hadn't brought it up, I guess they figured they would all just stay quiet about it and hope I never asked about a funeral.
That's when I discovered the situation from my great uncle's Facebook and called my mom, who panicked and went with the stupidest solution. Claiming I was there. Don't I remember?
I ended up talking with a few friends from high school, mentioning the situation, and word got back to those in town. So suddenly town gossip and little old church ladies got involved. Was I, or wasn't I at the funeral? Did my family forget to invite me to the funeral of the only grandparents I'd ever know? Or am I just causing a ruckus? My brother said they all just went with mom's answer. Of course they wouldn't forget me. Of course I was there. Of course they're good people. And it just snowballed.
The family expected me to eventually fold. I'm usually a nonconfrontational person, so me sticking to my guns was unexpected. And then I missed Thanksgiving. And now Christmas. With no sign of backing down. And I guess the realization that I could just stop being part of their lives is setting in and my parents are panicking. He's tried just getting them to apologize and explain, but stubbornness prevails. They want to rug sweep, but I'm not letting them.
My brother is upset with everything that's happened. He's realized just how crappy it all has been and he wants nothing to do with it anymore. But since he lives with my mom, he can't "get away from it".
He has asked if he can come stay with us for a little bit. I spoke with hubby, and he's in agreement with me that my brother can come crash in our spare bedroom for as long as he wants. Brother works remotely, so it's no trouble for him to pick up and go. I believe he's making the trip today or tomorrow. Not entirely sure, but I expect crap to hit the fan when he arrives.
On a side note, hubby's stoked that my brother and I made up. The two usually game together, but haven't due to "the situation". He's downstairs right now setting up his man cave in preparation for my brother's arrival. I'm happy to see him so excited.
Brother's Here: December 27, 2023
My brother rolled in late last night. He'd obviously been crying and when I opened the door, he just held me and sobbed. I'd never seen him like that before and soon both of us were just standing in the doorway crying into one another. He kept apologizing. Over and over again. Said he wasn't sure why he went with it. Just kept saying sorry. Hubby got him all set up in the spare bedroom while brother and I talked. My brother's a wreck. He's always been a big guy, but he's lost a lot of weight and his clothes just hang off him. If I didn't know better, I'd think he was on drugs. We talked for a little bit before bed and he re-explained everything for my husband. I'd told hubby the story, but it was just so weird that hearing it again helped.
This morning my brother was up at dawn making some coffee and getting his work day going. Hubby's off all week (lucky) so hubby made us working folk some pancakes and bacon. So far everything's peaceful. We've decided not to answer any calls from our family. They've been made aware that he arrived safely, and that we are going to spend the New Years together, and that we're not answering any calls until January 1st. They may text if they wish. I'm sure they're losing their minds. Serves them right.
Everyone, have a safe and happy new years! Don't drink and drive!
Happy 2024!: January 2, 2024
I hope everyone has a safe and enjoyable holidays, and may the new year be full of joy and happiness!
Not too much of an update. Things here have been quiet. My brother's settled in nicely and he's a great housemate. Our place isn't very big, but we have full basement and a nice outside patio/porch area so it doesn't feel crowded at all with the extra addition. He's a quiet and clean guy. No hassle at all. He got some fresh clothes from the Walmart, a haircut, and trimmed his beard, so he's more "presentable" now. He's a lady killer when he gets cleaned up. He's made nice with the (very nosy, but kind) retired couple next door and is adapting to "city living" nicely.
Folks back home have been mostly well behaved. There's been a few texts back and forth, as we're not answering calls. Mom mainly wants to know when brother's coming back, but he's keen on staying here for a while. Mom said I can't "keep him" and I told her he's a grown ass man and can do what he wants. Brother says he has her blocked after she ORDERED him to return home.
Brother has tentatively asked if he could stay long term, should he decide to, or at least longer than a usual visitor would stay. Which we're fine with. He has a good paying job and could afford an apartment, but he's never lived on his own and I would guess he has some anxiety about it. Should that be the case, he'll start paying us some rent and we'd probably adjust to give him the basement as his own space.
Had to change the locks: January 17, 2024
My brother is officially staying with us for the long haul. Hubby and him spent all Sunday organizing the basement and shifting things around so he now has his own area to be comfortable in. He's pretty handy and has also started fixing little things around our house. Our windows and doors have never closed and locked/unlocked smoother. He even fixed one of the closets we never use because we can never get the darn door open. Sadly, he also had to change the locks on our house and get us all new keys.
This is because while hubby and I were out this Saturday, the moms showed up. They'd been calling and texting us all week, but we weren't really answering them, so I guess the two decided to drive over and hash it out in person. They have emergency keys to my place, and just let themselves in. Brother told them to leave, they argued, and my nosy (but kind) neighbors called the police when they noticed the commotion. So, we get a call from neighbor's wife, return home to some cops in our yard, all the neighbors out "vacuuming their trees", and my nosy (but kind) neighbors standing on my porch with my brother behind them, doing their best Gandalf "You shall not pass" impression.
Had to talk with the cops, explain that we were having a family dispute and word vomited. I don't really remember what all I said, and was shaking a lot. Our local cops are really great. Fantastic guys and gals in blue, and took it all in stride. It's really cold here, so one had me join him in his cruiser with the heat on, and gave me a bottle of water to calm down while we talked. They asked if we wanted the moms trespassed but I wasn't sure if that counted as a criminal charge so just asked the cops if they could just make them leave, which the cops did with no fuss. I think the moms were shocked we were taking this so seriously. They didn't fight or scream at us. Just left quietly.
My dad promised me he'd make sure his wife left us alone. "Or else". He said he'd also have a stern talk with my mom. Him and I talked Sunday morning, and he seemed absolutely at the end of his rope. Husband jokingly told my dad he could move in, too. To which he declined.
Not sure where to go from here, but we're getting some ring cameras installed once they arrive. And everyone but my dad is blocked. Hopefully they all just leave us alone.
Nothing New To Report: February 2, 2024
Had a lot of DMs for updates, but don't have much anything to report on. The moms are behaving themselves. All's quiet on the western front. Felt weird ignoring or copy/pasting "no updates" to everyone, so here's what we've been doing, should anyone care.
Dad got a new bird/squirrel feeder from Amazon (looks like a little picnic table for a child's dolly but has a mesh top for the bird seed. I think it's supposed to be for chickens?) It's totes adorbs. To his horror, it also works as a Cooper hawk feeder, so now he's "fortifying his defenses" and putting up some trellises around it. He'll have to wait till warmer weather before planting anything to grow on them.
We had some ring cameras installed and put in a motion-activated camera that double functions as a light bulb. It goes in the light fixture outside the front door and is pretty cool. Video quality isn't all that great, but it's a nice addition I guess. It does overlook the bird feeders, so I've been watching it on my lunch breaks on the days I have to go into the office.
Hubby and brother are feuding. They started a coop farm in Stardew Valley a few days ago and they both want to romance Leah. My husband confided in me that he's also been romancing Sebastian as a backup. I'm not sure why he's keeping this a secret, but he's pretty smug about it.
RELEVANT COMMENTS
fractal_frog I hope your dad can outsmart the hawks!
My dad came out for a visit over the weekend. We had a good time and the weather was lovely for some grilling and beers. It was really nice to see him again and he seemed healthy and in good spirits.
Here's his report from back home: Step mom (dad's wife) has started to realize she's screwed up. I credit her change of mindset to the fact that my dad sat her down and laid it out for her: she leaves his kids alone, or she's getting divorce papers. That apparently shut her up right quick, because they had a prenup done when they married and I'm not sure the details of it, but it wouldn't end favorably for her. She hasn't worked in years, so I imagine she'd be eligible for alimony? But I'm not versed in any of that legal mumbojumbo. Dad didn't seem too worried about it, so I'm not gonna worry about it.
Step dad was pissed the police were involved in the last "mom visit" (despite no one getting arrested or anything) and was in a "the kids are out of control and need to be reigned back in" mindset. When my dad pointed out that "the kids" in question were all in their mid-30s, it took some of the steam out of stepdad's sails. According to my dad, even my mom looked a little surprised when he said that. So, part of me is wondering if a good chunk of this whole thing is my mom not truly realizing that her kids were grown, and no longer children she could make demands of. Both of the moms have left us alone. I expected my mom to continue to kick up a fuss, but I think the cops spooked her.
There was a wonderful suggestion by a comment or to get their pastor involved, which I passed along to my dad. Dad has since spoken to their pastor about everything. He's a young guy, relatively new to their church, and joked that his first month on the job he had to do 3 funerals in a row and his new "flock" were just dying to get away from him, so he's got a sense of humor which is nice. The new pastor agreed to sit down with everyone and help the family hash it all out in a true "Come to Jesus" type moment next month, so that maybe we could celebrate Easter together as our first holiday as a family. Dad said the pastor was aware our family was having some troubles, but unsure of exactly what was going on, and since he was new, the pastor didn't want to pry. He has also agreed to do a small service down at my uncle's maple grove later in the summer, as it usually floods and is a muddy mess all spring. According to my dad, my aunt and uncle are so over all the drama and just ready to move on, so I expect hugs and apologies from them when we next meet.
Stardew Valley Update: My brother was victorious in the grand fight for Leah. It was a hard battle. Well fought. When my husband exposed his plans to woo Sebastian all this time, it was quite the betrayal. Dramatics aside, their farm is really cute and I'm so happy they're enjoying the game!
Update 4/1 - Final one I think - April 1, 2024
Happy April Fools everyone! I hope you all check your caramel apples for stray onions before taking a bite! I also hope your Easter weekend was a delightful one.
It is with great joy that I tell you all about our most recent update! Possibly even a conclusion to this whole ordeal.
The entire family (aunt, uncle, moms, dads, brother, me, husband) and pastor met at my dad's house and we all sat down to hash the situation out. As expected from what my dad said, my aunt and uncle greeted us all with apologies and hugs, which was nice. My uncle usually helps host the Easter egg hunts with the church and he brought our Easter baskets to give to us in case us kids weren't sticking around the for the weekend. I'm not sure why but seeing it made me tear up and feel stupid, because it was just a basket of candy but it meant a lot to me for some reason.
The pastor led us in a prayer and talked about forgiveness and such. He then asked us all to talk one at a time about how we're feeling and what we want the end result of today to be. No one was allowed to interrupt so everyone got to talk. It was nice. The consensus for the group was that most everyone wanted things to go back to "normal". The only ones who had any variance off this was my mom and step dad. They both wanted all us kids to move back to the area.
The pastor asked them why they wanted us back, and neither could give a good reason other than "because family", and the pastor asked us if we were thriving where we were. And we said we were. He asked if we were happy there. Which we were. He then asked my mom and step dad if they wanted us to give up our happiness to make them happy.
And Mom broke down and said no. We all had a good cry. The pastor then asked about the funeral and lies that led up to it and followed it and how it made us all feel and what we wished we'd done differently if we had the chance. It was all very emotional, but in a good way, you know? Everyone apologized and admitted they f-ed up and did a really crappy thing.
We all talked for a long, long time and the pastor was a great mediator. Eventually we all reached some sort of resolution and I think we're good now. Emotions are still high and a little raw in areas, but we stayed for Easter weekend and had a nice time. We're going to keep moving forward slowly and try to repair the relationship, but I believe we're well and truly out of the woods.
As for my brother, he's still staying with us, and mom will stop trying to guilt trip him back home. He's thinking about renting a small apartment in our area but we're not pushing him to make a decision. He knows he's welcome to stay as long as he wants. I think he wants to try dating (he's had a few girlfriends but never anything serious) and is embarrassed to bring any girls around our place, lol. He's been going to a few random classes/bookclubs at the local library for something free to do and hitting it off with all the little old ladies who attend, and they keep trying to hook him up with girls his age who they know. He has been on a few lunches/coffee dates with a couple girls, but I think he's too embarrassed by the attention to give it a real try at "dating" any of them. He's happy, though, which is all I could ask for.
I'm not sure if there will be any more updates, as I think it's all be resolved about as much as it can be at the moment. I wanted to thank you all for your words of advice and giving me a place to vent and scream into the void. Please be kind to one another and to yourselves. Thank you.
Relevant Comments
emjkr: What a nice and hopeful update, I’m really glad you stuck to your guns when everyone threw sanity out the window!
But, could your mother explain how she thought this would work out in her favour?
Things as wonderful as the moment. Still doing baby steps with The Moms. We're texting and talking on the phones more, which is nice. Very civil.
Dad "accidentally" bought a bunch of hand crafted bird feeders at a craft fair. By accidentally, I mean: he had a little too much fun in the beer tent, went for a stroll while step mom wasn't looking, and stumbled upon a guy's booth and bought "one of each". He wouldn't tell me how MANY "one of each" was, but he cackled like a witch when I asked. Step mom said she's forcing him to give a few to me, so I'm expecting a delivery or a Dad-visit any day now.
My brother is officially "going steady" with a girl. We've met her a few times and she seems like a real sweetheart. She's our age and has a little boy (5-6 years old, I haven't asked) from a previous relationship (The dad's not in the picture from what I can gather). She's the granddaughter of one of his Book Club members, so the old ladies made good match makers in the end. The relationship is still very new and I'm routing for them.
No new Stardew Valley updates. Work has been a little crazy lately and I haven't been able to play much of anything, and brother has been distracted by his new lady friend. So, husband finally started Baldur's Gate 3, and fell for Gale's "magic trick" so now those two are a thing. I expect him to be sufficiently distracted from reality for the next few weeks.
submitted by Choice_Evidence1983 to BestofRedditorUpdates [link] [comments]
Originally posted to TwoHotTakes + her own page
Previous BoRU #1, BoRU #2, BoRU #3, BoRU #4, BoRU #5, BoRU 6
Editor’s Note: removed all relevant comments from older posts to make space for new updates. To see all older relevant comments, check out the previous BoRUs above
NEW UPDATE MARKED WITH ----
[New Update]: My family forgot to invite me to my grandparents funeral, but they are convinced I was there.
Trigger Warnings: death of loved ones, emotional manipulation, gaslighting, harassment
Original Post: November 14, 2023**
I’m 30s F and caused a major blowup in my family and now none of them are talking to me. For background, my hometown is tiny (500pop) and when I went 2 hrs away to “the city” (15,000pop) for college, I loved it. I ended up staying after graduation, got married, and am happy here for a decade. I visit my home town every few weeks or so, call/text my family near daily, and thought we were all good. My family’s pretty small. Just my brother, mom, step dad, dad, step mom, and an aunt and uncle (mom’s siblings, never married, no kids). My mother's grandparents moved to my home town when I was in high school and were just down the street from us. My family has always been pretty drama free (aside from my parent’s divorce when I was a kid) and we’ve been happy. The step-parents were blended in perfectly and we share holidays and celebrations together. We’re all super close and just the perfect little group.
Ever since I moved away, the topic of “when am I moving back?” is constant, and I’ve always laughed it off. My home town has nothing. You have to drive 30 minutes for milk and bread. 60-90 minute one-way commutes to work. And floods shut down the main road every Easter. I love the town, but I love here more. I have parks, stores, community events, a library! The “city” is great. My family grumbles that I need to move back, but I refuse. I've been trying to encourage them to come here, especially since it's not an hour drive to the nearest medical facility.
Now to the meat and potatoes: both my grandparents passed over COVID times. They were both old and their health had been failing for a while so it was only a matter of time. Thankfully they didn’t catch it, but it made visiting them impossible and we survived mostly through FaceTime. They both passed in their sleep months apart. Both were cremated and kept securely under the kitchen sink for safe keeping while the pandemic blew over. That was 2021.
Well, I just found out my family held a funeral for them and scattered the ashes in my uncle’s maple grove over the summer. No one said a word to me about it. I’ve visited numerous times before and after and not one word. I only found out because my great uncle from California posted on Facebook a few weeks ago that he is entering hospice and was so thankful his health stayed strong enough for him to see his little sister (my grandma) to her final resting place. I was confused and called my mom. She was all “Yeah, the funeral we had in July, remember?” Ya’ll, I visited them for the 4th of July. They did the funeral the 8th. Not a word about it to me. They had planned this for months. Long enough to arrange for my infirm great uncle to be brought over from the other side of the country. Apparently, they talked about it “all the time”.
Everyone is convinced I was at the funeral. They SWEAR I was there. I can prove I wasn’t because Google’s got my location history. My hubby is baffled because he was supposedly there, too, but he had to work every weekend in June and July. Time clock doesn’t lie. My family straight up forgot about me. I’m hurt. I’m sad. And they’re pissed at me “for lying”. They think I’m causing drama over nothing. Nothing I say can convince them I wasn’t there. My family is united in this. And they’ve all put me “on read” until I admit I’m wrong. They think I’ve gone nuts. Either there’s a doppelganger of me attending events, or my family doesn’t want to admit they screwed up. I’m not backing down.
Thanksgiving is coming up, and my family’s been vague posting on Facebook about “forgetful kids” and mental health. It’s so freaking weird and I don’t know if I’m in bizzaro world or what’s going on. My mom’s best friend reached out and said I should just admit I was wrong and apologize, that I’m causing my mom so much unnecessary stress. I asked her if she’s checked everyone’s home for CO2. She hung up on me. (We checked our CO2, and our testers are running just fine.) I have reached out to a few people in my home town to check in on my folks, and they all say they're fine. I even spoke with the local volunteer fire fighter group to see if they could check for gas leaks. Not sure if they were able to.
I don’t know what to do. I’ve shown them the proof I wasn’t there, but they know I’m tech savvy and just assume I’ve Photoshopped it. Hubby says we need a break, and we’re going to be staying home this holiday season.
Edit: I don't know the update rules, so I'll post updates to my profile should anyone want them.
Update #1: November 27, 2023
Not sure how to do updates on posts, so figured I'd post anything on my profile. Folks have private messaged me and this will be easier I think?
It's 11/27 and Thanksgiving just happened. Hubby and I stayed home. We got a small turkey and made our own little thanksgiving. It was nice. We ate around noon, then watched a movie, and later sat outside with a bottle of wine to watch the sun set behind the trees and neighbor houses.
We usually take the day before off, drive to my folks, stay the night, and help with the Thanksgiving Day cooking. So it wasn't until Wednesday night that my mom broke the silence. Mom called and asked when I was showing up, and I told her we were staying home this year, but for them to have a happy Thanksgiving, and to give the rest of the family my love. She was quiet for a long time after I said that, and I think she eventually mumbled an "okay", or something, and hung up. It wasn't an angry hang up. Just a hang up. On Thanksgiving day, I sent a group "Happy Thanksgiving!" gif to our family group chat. I received a few "happy Thanksgiving"'s back. No one's said anything else. There's been no posts on Facebook.
Update #2: December 12, 2023
So, I think I mentioned in one of my comments that my dad and I usually talk on the phone every Sunday morning. We're both early risers so we'd chat over our morning coffees and watch the sunrise. Him and I haven't really spoken since this all went down and it's been tough. I'm used to talking to him, you know?
Well, I was sitting outside in my usual spot, watching the sun rise and freezing my butt off, and he called me. I'm not entirely sure how to describe the emotions I felt. It was a mix of panic, hope, terror, happiness, and dread. I ended up answering because I just had to know what he wanted. It was an awkward conversation. He didn't address the current "drama", but instead tiptoed around the situation with all the grace of an cow on stilts. For instance, a simple "How are you doing?" Type question was answered with a "Not good." And the whole conversation would stall out for a bit because he knew why I wasn't doing well. So we ended up talking about the weather, the various winter birds we'd seen in our feeders, and the Christmas decorations around town. Things like that.
Eventually he asked if we were coming out for Christmas, and sounded sad when I told him we weren't. He asked if him and step mom could come visit us instead, and I told him it wasn't a good idea this year. That hubby and I were going to spend a quiet holiday together. I let him know he should be receiving some gifts at his PO Box any day now, so to please pick them up from the post office and put them under the family tree for everyone. He said he'd ship ours to us as well.
And that was pretty much it. No crazy drama to report. The only posts on Facebook have been the usual Christmas excitement ones, countdowns, photos of Santa, silly gift ideas, photos of company Christmas parties.
On a personal note: Hubby and I are doing alright. Our health is good, our spirits high, and we're as solid as ever. We each got Christmas bonus' at our jobs, so we're excited about that. They're not large, but we're happy to have them. We have also done advent calendars for the first time ever. I got him a Lego one, and he got me a hot chocolate one. We're going to do the calendars again next year. Maybe make a tradition out of it.
Everyone please have a safe and happy holidays.
Inheritance: December 16, 2023
I've received a lot - A LOT - of messages and private DMs urging me to check into inheritance and such. I'm really touched a lot of Internet strangers are worried about me and I wanted to ensure everyone that inheritance is most likely not an issue here. I'd almost be relieved if it was, because then it would at least make some sense. Money does weird things to people, you know?
No one in my family is wealthy by any means. After my grandparents' passed, their small estate was used to pay for their end of life expenses and remaining assets split up. Everyone directly related got an equal split (so excluded my dad and the step parents). I don't remember the exact amount I received, but it was around $5k if I recall. My brother gave me his share, too, so I could finish paying off my college debt while the interest freeze was active.
The great uncle from California has kids and grand kids, and great grandkids of his own, and also isn't wealthy. I think one of his kids makes good money doing something in finance, but I'm not entirely sure. I can't imagine he left us anything, as we hardly knew him. My mom, aunt, and uncle only met him a few times in their lives, and my brother and I even less. Grandma and him were close, but I don't think he liked my grandpa much.
Christmas: December 25, 2023
I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas. I've received a lot of support through my posts and I'm really grateful. Writing these updates have had a therapeutic effect.
Yesterday was Sunday, but I didn't answer my dad when he called. I just really didn't feel up to a pointless chat, so let it go to voicemail. He tried to reach me a few times throughout the day, but I didn't answer.
Our bestie last minute invited us over to his house for Christmas day lunch (today), so husband and I were busy all Christmas Eve making cookies, peanut brittle, and homemade suckers/hard candies for his kids. Mom tried to reach out as well, but I also ignored her calls.
We had a BLAST at lunch! Our friend's kids are a lot of fun to be around. They got some techy presents from their grandparents (Quest vr headset and steam decks, lucky little rascals) Friend and his wife aren't good with tech, while hubby and I are, so we helped get them set up while our friend played a good host to his folks and inlaws. The grandparents didn't realize that a Steam deck required a Steam account, so we got the kids all their own accounts set up, added them to our steam friends lists, and gifted them some games. We also bought them a few VR games for their headset, and they were off to the races with Beat Saber in no time.
As for my folks: My brother texted and asked if we could talk sometime tomorrow. I think me ignoring mom and dad has caused some kind of upset. Which they deserve.
Brother’s call: December 26, 2023
Spoke with my brother over the phone this morning.
For starters, he apologized for everything. Him and I are good (for now). For a bit of background, my brother and I are only 2 years apart. There weren't a lot of kids around growing up, so the two of us were often stuck doing stuff together. So we have a lot of shared interests and passions. He's been pretty silent on this whole matter, but still "part of the group", if you know what I mean. I think the thought of losing him out of my life was probably the most painful, because he's always been there. He was my rock until I met my husband. He's definitely a Mama's boy, though, so anything mom wanted, he made sure she got. I'm happy to have him back.
Without further ado, here's the story from the horse's mouth:
Mom apparently had a cancer scare late last year (which no one told me about, go figure), and dad had a stint put in his heart back in January (which I did know about). This "sense of mortality" has apparently lit a fire under Mom's ass to get me back home. But since I wasn't reacting to her passive aggressive hinting, she and step mom decided to go full crazy. My great uncle's health was bad, and he'd been asking about funeral arrangements for his sister (my grandma) for a while, so the moms decided to plan it. And use the event as a giant middle finger to me. They kept all the planning pretty hush-hush between the two of them, so no one on our side of the family actually knew about the funeral until like 2 weeks before. The moms said they'd invited hubby and I. No one thought anything about it. No one thought to mention, confirm, or check with me.
The plan was to scatter the ashes, say a few words, and maybe head to town for lunch. It was a small affair. The mom's didn't even tell the family that our great uncle was coming for it. Like I said, it was a small thing. Barely a footnote. No one thought it was odd because we're pretty chill people.
4th of July happens. Hubby and I are out. No one thought to mention it, as we were all busy celebrating and having a great time. Any time the topic of "this weekend" would start, the conversation would be quickly shifted by one of the moms. We went back home.
8th of July happens. Great uncle rolls into town with a few of his kids, grandkids, and great grandkids, and it's a surprise to everyone (but the moms). Everyone drives to the maple grove and the moms have brought a ton of food and stuff. It's a full blown party. No one on my side noticed I wasn't there, because there were so many extra faces outside the usual group. They did the spreading of the ashes, they said their words, they ate, they had a great time. It wasn't until our great uncle left, and all his side left with him, that they realized I wasn't there. And hadn't been there.
And this is where the crazy went up a notch. My brother says the moms were happy no one noticed I wasn't there. And that this was proof to everyone that I needed to move back because I was so easily forgotten about. Because none of them thought to reach out, right? They basically did a ton of guilt tripping manipulation bullshit and it made everyone upset at me for not showing up. Somehow it was my fault for being excluded. So suddenly everyone was on their side with "sticking it to me".
But then a few months went by, and tempers cooled, and then I guess the horror of it set in. Followed by the shame, but by then they were "in too deep". How do you undo something like this? And since I hadn't brought it up, I guess they figured they would all just stay quiet about it and hope I never asked about a funeral.
That's when I discovered the situation from my great uncle's Facebook and called my mom, who panicked and went with the stupidest solution. Claiming I was there. Don't I remember?
I ended up talking with a few friends from high school, mentioning the situation, and word got back to those in town. So suddenly town gossip and little old church ladies got involved. Was I, or wasn't I at the funeral? Did my family forget to invite me to the funeral of the only grandparents I'd ever know? Or am I just causing a ruckus? My brother said they all just went with mom's answer. Of course they wouldn't forget me. Of course I was there. Of course they're good people. And it just snowballed.
The family expected me to eventually fold. I'm usually a nonconfrontational person, so me sticking to my guns was unexpected. And then I missed Thanksgiving. And now Christmas. With no sign of backing down. And I guess the realization that I could just stop being part of their lives is setting in and my parents are panicking. He's tried just getting them to apologize and explain, but stubbornness prevails. They want to rug sweep, but I'm not letting them.
My brother is upset with everything that's happened. He's realized just how crappy it all has been and he wants nothing to do with it anymore. But since he lives with my mom, he can't "get away from it".
He has asked if he can come stay with us for a little bit. I spoke with hubby, and he's in agreement with me that my brother can come crash in our spare bedroom for as long as he wants. Brother works remotely, so it's no trouble for him to pick up and go. I believe he's making the trip today or tomorrow. Not entirely sure, but I expect crap to hit the fan when he arrives.
On a side note, hubby's stoked that my brother and I made up. The two usually game together, but haven't due to "the situation". He's downstairs right now setting up his man cave in preparation for my brother's arrival. I'm happy to see him so excited.
Brother's Here: December 27, 2023
My brother rolled in late last night. He'd obviously been crying and when I opened the door, he just held me and sobbed. I'd never seen him like that before and soon both of us were just standing in the doorway crying into one another. He kept apologizing. Over and over again. Said he wasn't sure why he went with it. Just kept saying sorry. Hubby got him all set up in the spare bedroom while brother and I talked. My brother's a wreck. He's always been a big guy, but he's lost a lot of weight and his clothes just hang off him. If I didn't know better, I'd think he was on drugs. We talked for a little bit before bed and he re-explained everything for my husband. I'd told hubby the story, but it was just so weird that hearing it again helped.
This morning my brother was up at dawn making some coffee and getting his work day going. Hubby's off all week (lucky) so hubby made us working folk some pancakes and bacon. So far everything's peaceful. We've decided not to answer any calls from our family. They've been made aware that he arrived safely, and that we are going to spend the New Years together, and that we're not answering any calls until January 1st. They may text if they wish. I'm sure they're losing their minds. Serves them right.
Everyone, have a safe and happy new years! Don't drink and drive!
Happy 2024!: January 2, 2024
I hope everyone has a safe and enjoyable holidays, and may the new year be full of joy and happiness!
Not too much of an update. Things here have been quiet. My brother's settled in nicely and he's a great housemate. Our place isn't very big, but we have full basement and a nice outside patio/porch area so it doesn't feel crowded at all with the extra addition. He's a quiet and clean guy. No hassle at all. He got some fresh clothes from the Walmart, a haircut, and trimmed his beard, so he's more "presentable" now. He's a lady killer when he gets cleaned up. He's made nice with the (very nosy, but kind) retired couple next door and is adapting to "city living" nicely.
Folks back home have been mostly well behaved. There's been a few texts back and forth, as we're not answering calls. Mom mainly wants to know when brother's coming back, but he's keen on staying here for a while. Mom said I can't "keep him" and I told her he's a grown ass man and can do what he wants. Brother says he has her blocked after she ORDERED him to return home.
Brother has tentatively asked if he could stay long term, should he decide to, or at least longer than a usual visitor would stay. Which we're fine with. He has a good paying job and could afford an apartment, but he's never lived on his own and I would guess he has some anxiety about it. Should that be the case, he'll start paying us some rent and we'd probably adjust to give him the basement as his own space.
Had to change the locks: January 17, 2024
My brother is officially staying with us for the long haul. Hubby and him spent all Sunday organizing the basement and shifting things around so he now has his own area to be comfortable in. He's pretty handy and has also started fixing little things around our house. Our windows and doors have never closed and locked/unlocked smoother. He even fixed one of the closets we never use because we can never get the darn door open. Sadly, he also had to change the locks on our house and get us all new keys.
This is because while hubby and I were out this Saturday, the moms showed up. They'd been calling and texting us all week, but we weren't really answering them, so I guess the two decided to drive over and hash it out in person. They have emergency keys to my place, and just let themselves in. Brother told them to leave, they argued, and my nosy (but kind) neighbors called the police when they noticed the commotion. So, we get a call from neighbor's wife, return home to some cops in our yard, all the neighbors out "vacuuming their trees", and my nosy (but kind) neighbors standing on my porch with my brother behind them, doing their best Gandalf "You shall not pass" impression.
Had to talk with the cops, explain that we were having a family dispute and word vomited. I don't really remember what all I said, and was shaking a lot. Our local cops are really great. Fantastic guys and gals in blue, and took it all in stride. It's really cold here, so one had me join him in his cruiser with the heat on, and gave me a bottle of water to calm down while we talked. They asked if we wanted the moms trespassed but I wasn't sure if that counted as a criminal charge so just asked the cops if they could just make them leave, which the cops did with no fuss. I think the moms were shocked we were taking this so seriously. They didn't fight or scream at us. Just left quietly.
My dad promised me he'd make sure his wife left us alone. "Or else". He said he'd also have a stern talk with my mom. Him and I talked Sunday morning, and he seemed absolutely at the end of his rope. Husband jokingly told my dad he could move in, too. To which he declined.
Not sure where to go from here, but we're getting some ring cameras installed once they arrive. And everyone but my dad is blocked. Hopefully they all just leave us alone.
Nothing New To Report: February 2, 2024
Had a lot of DMs for updates, but don't have much anything to report on. The moms are behaving themselves. All's quiet on the western front. Felt weird ignoring or copy/pasting "no updates" to everyone, so here's what we've been doing, should anyone care.
Dad got a new bird/squirrel feeder from Amazon (looks like a little picnic table for a child's dolly but has a mesh top for the bird seed. I think it's supposed to be for chickens?) It's totes adorbs. To his horror, it also works as a Cooper hawk feeder, so now he's "fortifying his defenses" and putting up some trellises around it. He'll have to wait till warmer weather before planting anything to grow on them.
We had some ring cameras installed and put in a motion-activated camera that double functions as a light bulb. It goes in the light fixture outside the front door and is pretty cool. Video quality isn't all that great, but it's a nice addition I guess. It does overlook the bird feeders, so I've been watching it on my lunch breaks on the days I have to go into the office.
Hubby and brother are feuding. They started a coop farm in Stardew Valley a few days ago and they both want to romance Leah. My husband confided in me that he's also been romancing Sebastian as a backup. I'm not sure why he's keeping this a secret, but he's pretty smug about it.
RELEVANT COMMENTS
fractal_frog I hope your dad can outsmart the hawks!
OOP: He'll be able to, I just know it. He's used to dealing with the wildlife and having hawks about, but he just wasn't expecting one to snag a meal right from his new feeder.MissOP: keep the updates coming. the moms are so close to folding it's just a little bit more. LMAO also, the bro mance between your husband and brother is so cute. lol Honestly, I think your husband making sure he has a side piece of Sebastian is absolutely the play.
I told him it was "technically" still a bird feeder. Just....for bigger birds. Which he thought was funny. He said he might make a little "no hawks allowed" sign to put up next to it.
OOP: So far still no word from the moms, but I hope you're right. I would love an apology and for us to begin moving past this. But I NEED that apology. I feel selfish saying that, but I refuse to "be the bigger person" on this. I just won't.Update: February 27, 2024
As for my brother and husband, yeah, they're basically soul mates. The two hit it off immediately when they first met, and they've been thick as thieves for years.
My dad came out for a visit over the weekend. We had a good time and the weather was lovely for some grilling and beers. It was really nice to see him again and he seemed healthy and in good spirits.
Here's his report from back home: Step mom (dad's wife) has started to realize she's screwed up. I credit her change of mindset to the fact that my dad sat her down and laid it out for her: she leaves his kids alone, or she's getting divorce papers. That apparently shut her up right quick, because they had a prenup done when they married and I'm not sure the details of it, but it wouldn't end favorably for her. She hasn't worked in years, so I imagine she'd be eligible for alimony? But I'm not versed in any of that legal mumbojumbo. Dad didn't seem too worried about it, so I'm not gonna worry about it.
Step dad was pissed the police were involved in the last "mom visit" (despite no one getting arrested or anything) and was in a "the kids are out of control and need to be reigned back in" mindset. When my dad pointed out that "the kids" in question were all in their mid-30s, it took some of the steam out of stepdad's sails. According to my dad, even my mom looked a little surprised when he said that. So, part of me is wondering if a good chunk of this whole thing is my mom not truly realizing that her kids were grown, and no longer children she could make demands of. Both of the moms have left us alone. I expected my mom to continue to kick up a fuss, but I think the cops spooked her.
There was a wonderful suggestion by a comment or to get their pastor involved, which I passed along to my dad. Dad has since spoken to their pastor about everything. He's a young guy, relatively new to their church, and joked that his first month on the job he had to do 3 funerals in a row and his new "flock" were just dying to get away from him, so he's got a sense of humor which is nice. The new pastor agreed to sit down with everyone and help the family hash it all out in a true "Come to Jesus" type moment next month, so that maybe we could celebrate Easter together as our first holiday as a family. Dad said the pastor was aware our family was having some troubles, but unsure of exactly what was going on, and since he was new, the pastor didn't want to pry. He has also agreed to do a small service down at my uncle's maple grove later in the summer, as it usually floods and is a muddy mess all spring. According to my dad, my aunt and uncle are so over all the drama and just ready to move on, so I expect hugs and apologies from them when we next meet.
Stardew Valley Update: My brother was victorious in the grand fight for Leah. It was a hard battle. Well fought. When my husband exposed his plans to woo Sebastian all this time, it was quite the betrayal. Dramatics aside, their farm is really cute and I'm so happy they're enjoying the game!
Update 4/1 - Final one I think - April 1, 2024
Happy April Fools everyone! I hope you all check your caramel apples for stray onions before taking a bite! I also hope your Easter weekend was a delightful one.
It is with great joy that I tell you all about our most recent update! Possibly even a conclusion to this whole ordeal.
The entire family (aunt, uncle, moms, dads, brother, me, husband) and pastor met at my dad's house and we all sat down to hash the situation out. As expected from what my dad said, my aunt and uncle greeted us all with apologies and hugs, which was nice. My uncle usually helps host the Easter egg hunts with the church and he brought our Easter baskets to give to us in case us kids weren't sticking around the for the weekend. I'm not sure why but seeing it made me tear up and feel stupid, because it was just a basket of candy but it meant a lot to me for some reason.
The pastor led us in a prayer and talked about forgiveness and such. He then asked us all to talk one at a time about how we're feeling and what we want the end result of today to be. No one was allowed to interrupt so everyone got to talk. It was nice. The consensus for the group was that most everyone wanted things to go back to "normal". The only ones who had any variance off this was my mom and step dad. They both wanted all us kids to move back to the area.
The pastor asked them why they wanted us back, and neither could give a good reason other than "because family", and the pastor asked us if we were thriving where we were. And we said we were. He asked if we were happy there. Which we were. He then asked my mom and step dad if they wanted us to give up our happiness to make them happy.
And Mom broke down and said no. We all had a good cry. The pastor then asked about the funeral and lies that led up to it and followed it and how it made us all feel and what we wished we'd done differently if we had the chance. It was all very emotional, but in a good way, you know? Everyone apologized and admitted they f-ed up and did a really crappy thing.
We all talked for a long, long time and the pastor was a great mediator. Eventually we all reached some sort of resolution and I think we're good now. Emotions are still high and a little raw in areas, but we stayed for Easter weekend and had a nice time. We're going to keep moving forward slowly and try to repair the relationship, but I believe we're well and truly out of the woods.
As for my brother, he's still staying with us, and mom will stop trying to guilt trip him back home. He's thinking about renting a small apartment in our area but we're not pushing him to make a decision. He knows he's welcome to stay as long as he wants. I think he wants to try dating (he's had a few girlfriends but never anything serious) and is embarrassed to bring any girls around our place, lol. He's been going to a few random classes/bookclubs at the local library for something free to do and hitting it off with all the little old ladies who attend, and they keep trying to hook him up with girls his age who they know. He has been on a few lunches/coffee dates with a couple girls, but I think he's too embarrassed by the attention to give it a real try at "dating" any of them. He's happy, though, which is all I could ask for.
I'm not sure if there will be any more updates, as I think it's all be resolved about as much as it can be at the moment. I wanted to thank you all for your words of advice and giving me a place to vent and scream into the void. Please be kind to one another and to yourselves. Thank you.
Relevant Comments
emjkr: What a nice and hopeful update, I’m really glad you stuck to your guns when everyone threw sanity out the window!
But, could your mother explain how she thought this would work out in her favour?
OOP: I don't think mom thought too far ahead. I believe she assumed it would all just magically work out the way she wanted it to. She said she wasn't sure what she was expecting to happen (which I think was a lie, but I wasn't going to push it).mak_zaddy: This was a great update! But ummmmmm no stardew valley update? What gives? Has Sebastian been woo’ed? How’s Leah? What’s happening?
OOP: Sebastian has indeed been wooed (and whoohooed) There's kids and cows and chickens. The two are still having a wonderful time at the game. They're working on completing the community center but it's slow going as they aren't trying to speedrun and just doing things as they want. I believe they're thinking about going into the desert mines once they complete that bundle, but they're both super chicken shit about it!-my-cabbages: I don't really understand what you had to apologize for ... but I'm glad you're happy and the situation seems to be settling down
OOP: There wasn't much of an apology on my end, as everyone agreed I had done nothing wrong. Mine was more of a "I'm sorry you didn't feel as though I would listen." Type apology, which I don't really believe is a proper apology because apologies like that push the blame back on another. I mostly expressed my feelings and the shock of it all, and how betrayed I felt.
----NEW UPDATE----
Small, happy update: May 7, 2024 (1 month later)Things as wonderful as the moment. Still doing baby steps with The Moms. We're texting and talking on the phones more, which is nice. Very civil.
Dad "accidentally" bought a bunch of hand crafted bird feeders at a craft fair. By accidentally, I mean: he had a little too much fun in the beer tent, went for a stroll while step mom wasn't looking, and stumbled upon a guy's booth and bought "one of each". He wouldn't tell me how MANY "one of each" was, but he cackled like a witch when I asked. Step mom said she's forcing him to give a few to me, so I'm expecting a delivery or a Dad-visit any day now.
My brother is officially "going steady" with a girl. We've met her a few times and she seems like a real sweetheart. She's our age and has a little boy (5-6 years old, I haven't asked) from a previous relationship (The dad's not in the picture from what I can gather). She's the granddaughter of one of his Book Club members, so the old ladies made good match makers in the end. The relationship is still very new and I'm routing for them.
No new Stardew Valley updates. Work has been a little crazy lately and I haven't been able to play much of anything, and brother has been distracted by his new lady friend. So, husband finally started Baldur's Gate 3, and fell for Gale's "magic trick" so now those two are a thing. I expect him to be sufficiently distracted from reality for the next few weeks.
DO NOT COMMENT IN LINKED POSTS OR MESSAGE OOPs – BoRU Rule #7
THIS IS A REPOST SUB - I AM NOT OOP
2024.05.14 05:52 ricotito23 [USA-PR] [H] Switch,PS4,PS5,Vita,3DS Games [W] PayPal
Selling my personal collection. Over 800 Games. Sorry my bad english. Paypal ff. Free Shipping over $100. Sorry i know this list will hurt eyes. I don't have a computer to edit it well. More photos at request. Offers are welcome. Most of these Prices are based on Pricharting (sorry im lazy to put my prices for these 800 games) i would like to sell this has a lot but im from Puerto Rico so thats likely impossible.
https://imgur.com/a/ntp4d6Q
Nintendo Switch
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One-Two Punch Collection CIB+ 87.57 Gunbrick: Reloaded New 24.68 Gunlord X New 107.79 Guns, Gore & Cannoli 1 & 2 New 105.28 Gunvolt Chronicles: Luminous Avenger iX New 84.5 Gyakuten Saiban 123: Naruhodo Selection New 41.49 Hades New 39.19 Haven New 45.49 Heaven's Vault New 32.15 Hero Must Die. Again New 56.5 Heroland Knowble Edition New 18.63 Hollow Knight CIB+ 31.5 Horgihugh and Friends New 28.18 Hot Wheels Unleashed New 22.03 Hotline Miami Collection [Special Reserve] New 54.36 Hyper Light Drifter [Special Edition] New 72.29 Hyrule Warriors: Definitive Edition CIB+ 49.69 Ib New 55.46 Ikenfell New 42.56 Immortals Fenyx Rising New 15.22 In Sound Mind: Deluxe Edition New 21.81 Indivisible New 19.41 Infernax New 50.5 Inscryption [Special Reserve] New 283.5 Ion Fury New 35.35 ITTA CIB+ 45.74 ITTA [Steelbook Edition] New 65.84 Ittle Dew 2+ New 43.45 Jamestown+ New 50.98 Joe Dever's Lone Wolf New 65.54 Katamari Damacy REROLL New 23.45 Katanakami New 42.3 Kaze and the Wild Masks New 32.44 KeyWe New 25.49 Killer Queen Black New 16.13 King's Bounty II New 17.85 Kingdom Hearts: Melody of Memory New 20.59 Kingdoms of Amalur: Re-Reckoning CIB+ 19.98 Kirby and the Forgotten Land CIB+ 37.97 Knights and Bikes New 45.49 Kotodama: The 7 Mysteries of Fujisawa New 19.45 KUNAI New 40.5 L.A. Noire CIB+ 29.99 Lair of the Clockwork God New 39.13 Layers of Fear: Legacy New 147.86 LEGO Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga New 20.48 Little Nightmares II CIB+ 20.75 Live A Live CIB+ 26.42 Lonely Mountains: Downhill SRG#46 New 86.79 Loop Hero CIB+ 35.47 Loop Hero [Collectors Edition] New 80.75 Love Esquire [Limited Edition] New 90.5 LoveKami Trilogy New 45.87 Luigi's Mansion 3 CIB+ 33.25 Lumines Remastered New 32.5 LUNARK New 49.52 Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope CIB+ 15.42 Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle CIB+ 12.5 Mario Kart 8 Deluxe New 38.35 Mario Party: Superstars CIB+ 39.5 Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3: The Black Order New 41.5 Mary Skelter 2 New 45.49 Mary Skelter: Finale New 49.39 Mato Anomalies New 19.73 Mega Man 11 New 20.48 Mega Man Zero/ZX Legacy Collection CIB+ 24.5 Megadimension Neptunia VII New 45.5 Metroid Dread CIB+ 35.34 Metroid Prime Remastered New 34.34 Mighty Gunvolt Burst New 44.45 Mighty Switch Force! Collection CIB+ 45.49 Ministry of Broadcast New 26.72 Minoria New 50.47 Miracle Snack Shop [Limited Edition] New 35.00 Moero Chronicle Hyper New 90.35 Moero Crystal H New 50.77 Momodora: Reverie Under the Moonlight New 71.68 MONARK Deluxe Edition New 37 Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom New 78.59 Monster Hunter Generations Ultimate New 42.69 Monster Hunter Rise CIB+ 15.49 Monster Hunter Stories 2: Wings of Ruin New 31.49 Monster Sanctuary New 58.46 Monstrum New 38.5 Mother Russia Bleeds [Special Reserve] New 59.25 Mother Russia Bleeds [Special Reserve] New 59.25 Ms. Splosion Man CIB+ 31.98 Mulaka New 60.00 Murder By Numbers Collectors Edition New 80.36 Mushihimesama New 60.7 My Friend Pedro [Special Reserve Edition] New 79.7 Narita Boy New 45.55 NEO: The World Ends With You CIB+ 20.5 NeoGeo Pocket Color Selection Vol. 1 New 43.06 Neon Abyss New 42.38 Neversong & Pinstripe CIB+ 37.5 New Pokémon Snap CIB+ 31.81 New Super Lucky's Tale New 33.59 New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe New 39.5 Ni no Kuni II: Revenant Kingdom - Prince's Edition New 18.14 Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch New 26.5 NieR: Automata - The End of YoRHa Edition New 39.5 Night in the Woods New 59.92 Night Trap: 25th Anniversary Edition New 56.06 Ninja Gaiden: Master Collection New 50.42 No Man's Sky CIB+ 26.25 No More Heroes CIB+ 40.5 No More Heroes 2: Desperate Struggle CIB+ 35.92 No More Heroes III CIB+ 15.5 Ocean's Heart New 53.33 Octahedron New 45.43 Octopath Traveler New 52.43 Octopath Traveler II New 39.99 Oddworld - Collection New 36.25 à Âkami HD New 32.99 One Step From Eden New 34.15 Oniken + Odallus Collection New 36.51 Opus Collection CIB+ 22.49 Ori: The Collection New 28.97 Othercide New 32.45 Outlast: Bundle of Terror / Outlast 2 CIB+ 277.52 Overlord: Escape from Nazarick New 35.97 Owlboy CIB+ 16.48 Oxenfree New 99.53 Panzer Dragoon New 40.5 Panzer Paladin New 48.13 Paper Mario: The Origami King CIB+ 36.5 Pathway New 27.6 Phoenotopia: Awakening [Premium Edition] New 114.25 Pikmin 3 Deluxe CIB+ 39.75 Pikmin 4 New 42.79 Piofiore: Fated Memories New 27.95 PixelJunk Eden 2 New 25.49 Pocky & Rocky Reshrined New 25.49 Pokémon Brilliant Diamond CIB+ 32.75 Pokémon Legends: Arceus New 41.19 Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Rescue Team DX CIB+ 40.5 Pokémon Sword CIB+ 30.26 Pokémon Violet New 44.5 Pokémon: Let's Go, Pikachu! CIB+ 35.47 Postal Redux New 25.5 PowerSlave: Exhumed New 65.06 Prinny Presents NIS Classics Volume 2 [Deluxe Edition] New 43.99 Prodeus New 40.67 Project Warlock New 67.14 Puyo Puyo Tetris New 17.5 Q.U.B.E. 2 New 51.32 Quake New 38.49 Radiant Silvergun New 58.09 Rainbow Billy: The Curse of the Leviathan New 23.82 Razion EX New 137.71 realMyst: Masterpiece Edition New 78.08 République: Anniversary Edition New 35.49 Return of the Obra Dinn New 58.18 Return to Monkey Island CIB+ 43.09 Return to Shironagasu Island CIB+ 28.5 Risk of Rain 2 New 14.7 River City Girls CIB+ 80.23 River City Girls 2 New 50.5 River City Girls [PAX Variant] New 142.6 River City Girls Zero New 44.49 River City: Rival Showdown New 30.49 Rogue Heroes: Ruins of Tasos CIB+ 46.5 Roki CIB+ 39.07 Rolling Sky Collection CIB+ 20.00 Root Film New 34.09 RUINER [SWITCH RESERVE] New 54.47 Rune Factory 3 Special New 23.41 Rune Factory 3 Special New 23.41 Rune Factory 4 Special [Archival Edition] New 153.5 Sakuna: Of Rice and Ruin New 27.5 Sally Face [Deluxe Edition] New 224.81 Sam & Max Save the World New 43.5 Sam & Max: Beyond Time and Space Remastered New 44 Samurai Jack: Battle Through Time New 70.48 Save me Mr Tako: Definitive Edition New 33.5 Scott Pilgrim vs. The World: The Game - Complete Edition New 32.49 Sea Horizon [Limited Edition] New 42.49 Sea of Solitude: The Director's Cut New 20.00 Seabed New 40.42 SeaBed [Limited Edition] New 135.38 Senran Kagura Reflexions New 129.74 Senren * Banka New 86.76 SENSEs: Midnight [Limited Edition] New 47.43 Serious Sam Collection [Switch Reserve] New 60.49 Seven Pirates H New 51.25 Seven Pirates H New 51.25 Seven Pirates H New 51.25 Shadow Man Remastered New 48.39 Shadowgate New 62.5 Shadowrun Trilogy New 56.64 Shadows of Adam New 34.49 Shadowverse: Champion's Battle New 21.95 Shantae New 39.34 Shantae and the Pirate's Curse New 381.21 Shantae and the Pirate's Curse Box 49.62 Shantae and the Seven Sirens New 50.2 Shantae: Half-Genie Hero [Ultimate Edition] New 38.2 Shantae: Risky's Revenge New 38.51 Shaq Fu: A Legend Reborn New 19.57 Shikhondo: Soul Eater New 34.44 Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne HD Remaster New 25.5 Shin Megami Tensei V New 22.38 Shin Megami Tensei V New 22.38 Shining Resonance Refrain [Draconic Launch Edition] New 48.6 Signalis New 32.03 Sine Mora EX New 23.02 Skelattack New 50.49 Slime-san New 43.74 Smile For Me New 46.94 SNK Heroines Tag Team Frenzy New 29.15 Sol Cresta: Dramatic Edition New 45.48 Sonic Colors Ultimate CIB+ 15.48 Sonic Frontiers CIB+ 21.62 Sonic Mania New 16.51 Spiritfarer New 28.95 Splatoon 2 CIB+ 19.67 Splatoon 3 New 43.99 Star Wars Pinball New 19.72 Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic New 60.49 Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords New 59.79 Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords New 59.79 Star Wars: Republic Commando New 26.45 Steel Assault New 48 Streets of Rage 4 New 33.45 Strife: Veteran Edition New 37.72 Subnautica + Subnautica: Below Zero New 32.49 Super Blood Hockey New 60.96 Super Bomberman R New 20.42 Super Mario 3D All-Stars CIB+ 82.33 Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury CIB+ 39.5 Super Mario Bros. Wonder CIB 38.99 Super Mario Maker 2 CIB+ 30.48 Super Mario Odyssey New 39.59 Super Mario RPG New 39.93 Super Meat Boy New 38.5 Super Meat Boy Forever New 25.98 Super Monkey Ball Banana Mania New 13.48 Super Smash Bros. Ultimate CIB+ 38.74 Supraland New 33.75 Sushi Striker: The Way of Sushido New 12.17 Taiko no Tatsujin Rhythm Festival New 15.5 Tails of Iron [Crimson Knight Edition] New 42.89 Tales of Vesperia: Definitive Edition New 30.41 Tandem: A Tale of Shadows New 20.48 Terraria New 24.66 Caligula Effect 2 New 56.3 Caligula Effect: Overdose New 61.95 DioField Chronicle CIB+ 25.46 Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim CIB+ 35.31 Falconeer: Warrior Edition New 18.88 Friends Of Ringo Ishikawa New 26.73 Great Ace Attorney Chronicles CIB+ 30.98 Knight Witch Deluxe Edition New 32.07 Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel III - Extracurricular Edition CIB+ 31.77 Legend of Tianding New 51.61 Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild CIB+ 34 Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening CIB+ 32.57 Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword HD CIB+ 31.24 Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom New 47.46 Letter: A Horror Visual Novel [Limited Edition] New 73.75 The Messenger [Special Reserve Games Edition] New 280.00 Missing CIB+ 35.5 Mummy Demastered New 57.71 Red Lantern New 58.5 RED STRINGS CLUB [SWITCH RESERVE] New 38.5 Silver Case 2425 Deluxe Edition CIB 35.5 TakeOver New 47.41 Talos Principle New 51.62 Touryst New 68.88 Wonderful 101: Remastered New 23.5 World Ends with You: Final Remix New 53.95 There Is No Game: Wrong Dimension New 53.51 Thumper New 45.45 Time on Frog Island CIB+ 17.43 Timespinner [Limited Run] CIB+ 77.28 Tiny Barbarian DX New 33.97 To The Moon New 67.98 ToeJam & Earl: Back in the Groove! CIB+ 49.86 Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE Encore New 66.72 Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE Encore New 66.72 TowerFall New 45.5 Transistor CIB+ 61.01 Travis Strikes Again: No More Heroes CIB+ 24.99 Treasures Of The Aegean New 17.98 Triangle Strategy New 37.47 Trigger Witch New 34.59 Trigger Witch - Limited Edition New 57.66 Trover Saves the Universe New 37.76 Turok / Turok 2: Seeds of Evil New 167.4 Twin Blades of the Three Kingdoms New 50.5 Two Point Hospital New 26.5 UnderMine New 51.08 Unravel Two CIB+ 18.35 Unreal Life New 39.15 Unsighted New 47.2 Untitled Goose Game New 22.45 Valfaris New 39.64 Valis: The Fantasm Soldier Collection New 70.61 Valis: The Fantasm Soldier Collection II New 50.5 Valkyria Chronicles 4 New 66.81 Very Very Valet New 17.77 Wandersong CIB+ 33.99 Warborn New 16.6 Warhammer 40,000: Mechanicus CIB+ 21 WarioWare: Get it Together! CIB+ 24.55 West of Dead New 39.1 Wizard of Legend New 62.66 Wonder Boy: The Dragon's Trap New 39.14 World Of Simulators New 45 Wreckfest New 25.5 Wulverblade New 68.83 Xenoblade Chronicles 2 Loose 42.6 Xenoblade Chronicles 2 CIB+ 48.49 Xenoblade Chronicles 2: Torna the Golden Country New 58.45 Xenoblade Chronicles 3 New 39.49 Xenoblade Chronicles: Definitive Edition New 45.5 Xtreme Sports New 50.5 Yoku's Island Express CIB+ 35.5 Yooka-Laylee and the Impossible Lair New 35.5 Yoshi's Crafted World CIB+ 36.75 Young Souls New 34.49 Yu-Gi-Oh! Legacy of the Duelist: Link Evolution CIB+ 17.69 Yuppie Psycho: Executive Edition (Elite Edition) New 45.49 Yurukill: The Calumniation Games (Deluxe Edition) New 20.73 Zombies Ate My Neighbors and Ghoul Patrol New 40.09
PS4
88 Antarctica New 45.00 Antartica 88 [Variant Cover] New 185.5 Deadpool CIB+ 76.33 Deadpool CIB+ 76.33 Death Park New 75.48 Death Park New 75.48 Death Park New 75.48 Death Park New 75.48 Digimon Survive New 16.55 Divinity: Original Sin II - Definitive Edition New 71 Doki Doki Literature Club Plus! New 21.17 Helldivers [Super-Earth Ultimate Edition] CIB+ 62.97 Minecraft: Story Mode - A Telltale Games Series - The Complete Adventure CIB+ 58.41 Outriders: Worldslayer New 18.48 Revenge of The Bird King New 31.99 Saints Row: The Third Remastered New 15.1 Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal [At the Seams Edition] New 60.49 Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal [Tailor Made Edition] New 47.99 Senran Kagura: Peach Beach Splash (No Shirt, No Shoes, All Service Edition) New 71.5 Shadow Warrior 2 [Special Reserve Edition] New 235.52 Super Perils of Baking Special Edition [SEGA Outerbox] New 200.5 Swords of Ditto: Mormo's Curse [Special Reserve Edition] New 47.1 Tamashii New 734.39 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutants in Manhattan CIB+ 51.58 Valkyria Chronicles Remastered Steelbook Edition New 30.45
Vita
2064: Read Only Memories New 67.97 88 Heroes New 40.6 99Vidas New 125.97 Hole New World New 48.82 Rose in the Twilight New 192 Winter's Daydream [Limited Edition] New 64.1 Aegis of Earth: Protonovus Assault New 26.49 Akiba's Beat New 30.25 Akiba's Trip: Undead & Undressed CIB+ 25.49 Alone With You New 38.5 Angry Birds Star Wars New 20.48 Another World: 20th Anniversary Edition New 40.49 Antiquia Lost New 34.75 Aqua Kitty: Milk Mine Defender DX New 51.5 Army Corps of Hell New 23.99 Asdivine Hearts New 35.46 Astro Aqua Kitty [Limited Edition] New 64.7 Atari Flashback Classics New 60.61 Atelier Escha & Logy Plus: Alchemists of the Dusk Sky (Limited Edition) New 168.49 Awesome Pea Collection [Limited Edition] CIB+ 40.1 Axiom Verge Multiverse Edition New 56.56 Back in 1995 [Limited Edition] New 191.4 Bard's Gold New 33 Bastion New 64.16 Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate CIB+ 23.67 Bit.Trip Presents...Runner2: Future Legend of Rhythm Alien New 33.49 Bit.Trip Presents...Runner2: Future Legend of Rhythm Alien New 33.49 Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon New 118.23 Borderlands 2 CIB+ 23.49 Breach & Clear New 308.01 Broken Age New 33.77 Bunny Must Die: Chelsea and the 7 Devils New 95 Call of Duty: Black Ops Declassified CIB+ 22.29 Call of Duty: Black Ops Declassified Loose 18.98 Chaos;Child New 45.61 Chasm CIB+ 60.49 Child of Light CIB+ 24.56 Claire: Extended Cut CIB+ 35.17 Code:Realize - Future Blessings Loose 14.9 Code:Realize - Guardian of Rebirth New 25.5 Code:Realize - Guardian of Rebirth Loose 14.2 Conga Master Go! [Limited Edition] New 51.83 Corpse Party: Blood Drive New 58.77 Cosmic Star Heroine CIB+ 43.25 Criminal Girls 2: Party Favors CIB+ 74.09 Criminal Girls: Invite Only CIB+ 54.49 Croixleur Sigma New 40.49 Cursed Castilla EX [Limited Edition] New 60.5 Curses 'N Chaos New 38.72 Damascus Gear: Operation Osaka New 40.51 Damascus Gear: Operation Tokyo New 41 Danganronpa 2: Goodbye Despair Loose 19.41 Danganronpa 2: Goodbye Despair Loose 19.41 Danganronpa Another Episode: Ultra Despair Girls New 31.5 Danganronpa V3: Killing Harmony CIB+ 58.89 Danganronpa: Trigger Happy Havoc CIB+ 25.97 Dariusburst: Chronicle Saviours New 47.38 Deadbolt New 42.44 Death Mark CIB+ 23.22 Death Tales [Limited Edition] New 40.4 Deemo: The Last Recital New 34.22 Defender's Quest: Valley of the Forgotten New 37.86 Demon Gaze Loose 22.22 Demon Gaze CIB+ 25.81 Demon Gaze II New 74.66 Demon's Tier+ [Limited Edition] CIB+ 55.49 Dengeki Bunko: Fighting Climax CIB+ 25.5 Devious Dungeon - Limited Edition CIB+ 67.38 Devious Dungeon 2 [Limited Edition] New 84.5 Digimon Story: Cyber Sleuth CIB+ 65.9 Disgaea 4: A Promise Revisited CIB+ 25.49 Dokuro New 52.94 Dragon Fantasy: The Black Tome of Ice New 34.5 Dragon Fantasy: The Volumes of Westeria New 40.49 Dragon Sinker: Descendants of Legend New 35.5 Dungeon Travelers 2: The Royal Library & The Monster Seal CIB+ 53 Dynasty Warriors: Next Loose 16.66 Earth Defense Force 2: Invaders from Planet Space New 28.19 EMMA: Lost in Memories [Limited Edition] New 52.49 Exile's End New 39.65 Exist Archive: The Other Side of The Sky Loose 18.48 Fate/Extella: The Umbral Star Noble Phantasm Edition New 46.26 Fernz Gate New 30.69 Final Fantasy X / X-2 HD Remaster Loose 25.49 Final Fantasy X-2 HD Remaster New 61.19 Forma.8 New 32.5 Freedom Wars CIB+ 13.48 Furwind [Limited Edition] CIB+ 40.5 Futuridium EP Deluxe New 45.97 Gal*Gun: Double Peace CIB+ 32.34 Ghoulboy [Limited Edition] New 160.5 God of War Collection New 74.75 Grand Kingdom New 47.6 Gravity Rush CIB+ 44.5 Guacamelee! New 70.48 Guard Duty [Limited Edition] CIB+ 47.38 Gundemoniums New 84.18 Gunhouse New 30.38 Habroxia New 129.94 Habroxia 2 [Limited Edition] New 65.5 Halloween Forever [Limited Edition] New 74.5 Home: A Unique Horror Adventure New 35.92 Horizon Chase Turbo [Limited Edition] New 76.81 Hot Shots Golf: World Invitational New 26.19 HtoL#NiQ The Firefly Diary: Limited Edition New 59.25 Hue New 40.5 Hyperdevotion Noire: Goddess Black Heart CIB+ 35.5 Hyperdimension Neptunia PP: Producing Perfection CIB+ 35.97 Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth1 CIB+ 47.01 Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth1 CIB+ 47.01 Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth2: Sisters Generation CIB+ 60.49 Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth2: Sisters Generation CIB+ 60.49 Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth3: V Generation CIB+ 55.95 Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth3: V Generation CIB+ 55.95 Hyperdimension Neptunia U: Action Unleashed CIB+ 43.81 Iconoclasts New 96.5 Indigo 7 : Quest for Love New ? Jak and Daxter Collection CIB+ 50.49 Jet Set Knights [Limited Edition] New 100.5 Jet Set Knights [Limited Edition] New 100.5 Just Ignore them + My Big Sister Collection New 60.49 Kawaii Deathu Desu New 45.5 Killzone: Mercenary Loose 24.49 Killzone: Mercenary CIB+ 32.68 Knightin' + [Limited Edition] New 60.45 Knytt Underground New 128.14 La-Mulana Ex New 38.03 LEGO Batman 2: DC Super Heroes Loose 11.33 LEGO Jurassic World CIB+ 13.44 LEGO Ninjago: Shadow of Ronin Loose 17.12 LEGO Star Wars: The Force Awakens New 28.75 LEGO Star Wars: The Force Awakens Loose 12.21 LEGO The Lord of the Rings Loose 10.49 Lone Survivor: The Director's Cut New 42.49 Luckslinger [Limited Edition] New 60.41 Lumines: Electronic Symphony New 18.61 Mary Skelter: Nightmares CIB+ 92.87 MegaTagmension Blanc + Neptune VS Zombies New 37.58 MeiQ: Labyrinth of Death CIB+ 25.39 Mercenary Kings: Reloaded Edition [Limited Edition] New 106.71 Metagal [Limited Edition] CIB+ 100.35 Metal Gear Solid HD Collection CIB+ 46.49 Metal Slug 3 New 115.48 Mind Zero CIB+ 20.48 Mooseman [Limited Edition] New 119.05 Mortal Kombat CIB+ 26.99 MotoGP 13 CIB+ 23.83 MUSYNX New 50.49 Muv-Luv New 53.36 Muv-Luv Alternative New 66.95 Muv-Luv Complete Set New 90.5 My Aunt is a Witch [Limited Edition] New 55.5 Mystery Chronicle: One Way Heroics New 27.94 Need for Speed: Most Wanted - A Criterion Game CIB+ 20.32 Neurovoider New 35.5 Nicole [Limited Edition] New 48.22 Night Trap: 25th Anniversary Edition New 58.99 Nova-111 New 28.67 Nurse Love Addiction New 59.18 Nurse Love Syndrome New 50.49 Nurse Love Syndrome Loose 15.49 Oceanhorn: Monster of Uncharted Seas New 52 Octodad: Dadliest Catch New 46.36 Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee - New 'n' Tasty New 149.5 Oddworld: Munch's Oddysee HD New 52.5 Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath HD New 69.73 Odin Sphere Leifthrasir CIB+ 72.45 Odin Sphere Leifthrasir Loose 70.5 One More Dungeon CIB+ 60 Operation Abyss: New Tokyo Legacy CIB+ 31.5 Oreshika: Tainted Bloodlines New 93 Pantsu Hunter: Back to the 90s New 156.5 Papers, Please New 115.47 Pato Box [Limited Edition] New 73.23 Penny-Punching Princess New 45.41 Period: Cube - Shackles of Amadeus New 54.65 Persona 4 Golden Loose 25.37 Persona 4 Golden New 61.12 Persona 4: Dancing All Night - Disco Fever Edition New 145.5 Phantom Breaker: Battle Grounds New 53.5 Pix the Cat New 28.84 Plague Road New 43.4 PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale New 31.74 Proteus New 36.49 Psychedelica of the Ashen Hawk New 51.5 Psychedelica of the Ashen Hawk New 51.5 Psychedelica of the Black Butterfly CIB+ 33.57 Psycho-Pass Mandatory Happiness CIB+ 28.99 Pushy and Pully in Block Land New 70.45 Rabi-Ribi New 93.59 Rainbow Moon New 44.89 Ray Gigant New 102.84 Rayman Legends Loose 17.37 Rayman Origins CIB+ 16.71 Retro City Rampage DX [Re-Release] New 35.00 Revenant Dogma New 35.36 Revenant Saga New 29.44 Reverie [Limited Edition] CIB+ 43.49 Riddled Corpses EX New 40.49 Risk of Rain New 38 Rock Boshers DX New 29.34 Rocketbirds 2: Evolution New 55.5 Rocketbirds: Hardboiled Chicken New 43.2 Root Double [Xtend Edition] New 53.5 Root Letter New 46.11 Salt and Sanctuary New 100.49 Salt and Sanctuary New 100.49 Saturday Morning RPG New 50.49 Sayonara Umihara Kawase++ New 67.33 ScourgeBringer [Limited Edition] New 59.97 ScourgeBringer [Limited Edition] New 59.97 Senran Kagura Shinovi Versus: Let's Get Physical Edition New 115.5 Senran Kagura: Bon Appétit! New 150.44 Senran Kagura: Bon Appétit! Full Course - Collector's Edition New 185.13 Senran Kagura: Estival Versus Endless Summer Edition New 115.48 Sense: A Cyberpunk Ghost Story New 155.5 Severed [Limited Edition] New 100.81 Shakedown: Hawaii CIB+ 36.85 Shantae: Half-Genie Hero CIB+ 37.5 Shinobido 2: Revenge of Zen CIB+ 38.67 Shovel Knight New 96.49 Sid Meier's Civilization Revolution 2+ CIB+ 76.26 Silent Hill: Book of Memories CIB+ 76.38 Sir Eatsalot [Limited Edition] CIB+ 53.08 Siralim New 50.5 Siralim 2 New 30.49 Skullgirls: 2nd Encore New 52.81 Sky Force Anniversary New 75.48 Slain: Back From Hell [Signature Edition] New 76.5 Sly Cooper Collection CIB+ 52.27 Smart as... CIB+ 9.67 Soldner-X 2: Final Prototype New 44.12 Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed CIB+ 23.56 Sorcery Saga: Curse of the Great Curry God [Limited edition] New 80.5 Soul Sacrifice CIB+ 17.36 Soul Sacrifice Delta New 105.5 Spelunky New 70.5 Spy Hunter CIB+ 24.31 Stay [Limited Edition] New 130.5 Stealth Inc: A Clone in the Dark (Ultimate Edition) New 29.13 SteamWorld Dig New 55.72 SteamWorld Heist New 52.97 Steins;Gate CIB+ 30.58 Steins;Gate 0 CIB+ 29.49 Stranger of sword city limited edition New 63.57 Super Hydorah New 47.9 Super Meat Boy New 60.5 Super Mutant Alien Assault New 34.9 Super Skull Smash GO! 2 Turbo New 42.35 SUPERBEAT: XONiC New 28.49 Superdimension Neptune VS Sega Hard Girls New 58.5 Sword Art Online: Hollow Fragment New 65.48 Synergia [Limited Edition] New 110.49 Tachyon Project Limited Edition New 55.35 Takotan [Limited Edition] New 51.59 Tales from Space: Mutant Blobs Attack New 50.24 Tales of Hearts R CIB+ 69.48 Tales of Hearts R Loose 50.5 Task Force Kampas New 36.5 Tetris Ultimate New 70.47 Tetris Ultimate New 70.47 Amazing Spider-Man CIB+ 64.75 Amazing Spider-Man CIB+ 64.75 Bard's Tale: Remastered and Resnarkled New 50.49 Bit.Trip Limited Edition New 33.5 Count Lucanor [Signature Edition] New 144.47 House in Fata Morgana: Dreams of the Revenants Edition CIB+ 99.5 House in Fata Morgana: Dreams of the Revenants Edition M+B 40.1 King of Fighters '97: Global Match New 64.81 Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel CIB+ 36.49 Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel (Lionheart Limited Edition) New 72.39 Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel II CIB+ 57.82 Longest Five Minutes New 32.5 Lost Child New 56.03 Lost Cube [Limited Edition] New 50.49 Ratchet and Clank Trilogy CIB+ 72.77 Swapper New 51.48 Swindle New 27.51 Walking Dead: Season Two - A Telltale Games Series New 22.61 Thomas Was Alone New 33.5 Tokyo Xanadu New 49.32 Touch My Katamari CIB+ 33.72 Twin Breaker: A Sacred Symbols Adventure [Limited Edition] CIB+ 47.09 Ultimate Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 CIB+ 31.21 Ultimate Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 CIB+ 31.21 Uncharted: Golden Abyss CIB+ 27.23 Uncharted: Golden Abyss CIB+ 27.23 Undertale New 66.38 Unepic [Limited Edition] New 274.98 UnMetal New 163.32 Utawarerumono: Mask of Deception New 72.27 Utawarerumono: Mask of Truth - Launch Edition New 36.5 Utawarerumono: Mask of Truth - Launch Edition New 36.5 VA-11 Hall-A New 79.91 Valkyrie Drive: Bhikkhuni CIB+ 66.81 Vasara Collection New 98.5 Velocity 2X: Critical Mass Edition New 63.05 Volume New 32.25 Windjammers New 35.83 Wipeout 2048 New 31.24 World of Final Fantasy New 33.99 Xeno Crisis [Limited Edition] New 100.5 Xeno Crisis [Limited Edition] New 100.5 Xeno Crisis [Limited Edition] New 100.5 Xenon Valkyrie+ New 68.11 Xeodrifter New 44.2 Yomawari: Midnight Shadows CIB+ 33.71 Yomawari: Night Alone / htol#NiQ: The Firefly Diary CIB+ 40.5 Ys Origin New 56.4 Ys VIII: Lacrimosa of DANA New 72.34 Ys: Memories of Celceta CIB+ 25.99 Yumeutsutsu Re:After [Limited Edition] New 82.97 Yumeutsutsu Re:Master [Limited Edition] New 75.48 Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward CIB+ 15.5 Zero Escape: Zero Time Dilemma New 33.17 Zero Escape: Zero Time Dilemma Loose 24.51
3DS
Aliens: Infestation Loose 59.32 Minecraft: New Nintendo 3DS Edition New 34.72 New Nintendo 2DS XL White & Orange Loose 206.5 Senran Kagura 2: Deep Crimson (Double D Edition) New 70.5 Senran Kagura 2: Deep Crimson (Double D Edition) New 70.5 Shantae and the Pirate's Curse [Collector's Edition] New 89.39 Shantae and the Pirate's Curse [Collector's Edition] New 89.39
submitted by ricotito23 to GameSale [link] [comments]
https://imgur.com/a/ntp4d6Q
Nintendo Switch
13 Sentinels: Aegis Rim CIB+ 32.92 1971 Project Helios New 15.41 Boy and His Blob New 50.49 Little Golf Journey New 29.62 Robot Named Fight [Premium Edition] New 50.5 Adventure Time: Pirates of the Enchiridion New 25.68 AeternoBlade II New 35.5 Afterparty New 38 Aggelos New 38.22 AI: The Somnium Files CIB+ 60.5 AI: The Somnium Files CIB+ 60.5 AI: The Somnium Files - nirvanA Initiative CIB+ 40 Alex Kidd in Miracle World DX New 18.98 Alwa's Collection New 25.62 American Hero New 40.49 Ancestors Legacy New 24.07 Annapurna Interactive [Deluxe Limited Edition Collection] New 372.64 ANNO: Mutationem [Limited Run] New 69.5 Ape Out [Special Reserve] New 49.13 Ara Fell & Rise of the Third Power New 57.24 Arcade Spirits New 20 Archvale New 51.25 ARMS CIB+ 30.5 Ary and the Secret of Seasons New 12.52 Arzette: The Jewel of Faramore New 74.23 Assassin's Creed: The Rebel Collection CIB+ 17.48 Astalon: Tears of the Earth New 50.63 Astral Chain New 48.99 Astronite New 19.48 Atelier Ryza 2: Lost Legends & the Secret Fairy New 86.98 Atelier Ryza: Ever Darkness and the Secret Hideout CIB+ 49.5 Atelier Ryza: Ever Darkness and the Secret Hideout New 60.1 Attack on Titan 2: Final Battle New 74.23 Axiom Verge 1 & 2 Double Pack New 74.5 Azure Striker Gunvolt 3 New 48.5 Azure Striker Gunvolt: Striker Pack CIB+ 25.79 Balan Wonderworld New 11.77 Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Editions New 140.05 Battle Chef Brigade Deluxe CIB+ 32.61 Battle Princess Madelyn: Royal Edition New 52.88 Bayonetta New 40.76 Bayonetta 2 CIB+ 35.5 Bayonetta 3 New 34.67 Bayonetta Origins: Cereza and the Lost Demon New 32.5 Black Bird New 55.5 Blade Runner: Enhanced Edition New 48.72 Blasphemous CIB+ 108.49 Blaster Master Zero New 44.14 Blaster Master Zero II New 40.49 Blaster Master Zero III New 34.5 Blazing Beaks New 30.02 Blazing Chrome CIB+ 65.92 Bloodrayne 1 & 2: Revamped Dual Pack w/ Slipcover New 100.47 BloodRayne Betrayal: Fresh Bites New 40.49 Bloodstained: Curse Of The Moon 2 New 28.49 Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night New 21.23 Blossom Tales II: The Minotaur Prince New 46.48 Blossom Tales: The Sleeping King CIB+ 150.47 Blue Fire CIB+ 28.49 Blue Reflection: Second Light New 59.83 Bomb Chicken CIB+ 38.14 Bravely Default II New 29.4 BROFORCE [SWITCH RESERVE] New 53.82 Bug Fables: The Everlasting Sapling New 55.93 Bugsnax CIB+ 30.77 Burnout Paradise Remastered CIB+ 14.98 BUTCHER New 36.9 Cannon Dancer: Osman New 54 Captain Toad: Treasure Tracker CIB+ 30.49 Captain Tsubasa: Rise of New Champions New 26.09 Card Shark Collector's Edition New 47.5 Carrion: Special Reserve Edition New 50.6 Castlevania Anniversary Collection New 50.49 Cat Girl Without Salad: Amuse-Bouche New 40.97 Cat Quest + Cat Quest II: Pawsome Pack New 49.5 Cathedral New 66.91 Cave Story+ CIB+ 34.49 Celeste New 62.39 Chicken Police - Paint it RED! CIB+ 13.25 Children of Morta CIB+ 22.09 Children of Zodiarcs New 44.77 Citizens Unite! Earth X Space New 29.49 Coffee Talk New 42.15 COGEN: Sword of Rewind & Gunvolt Chronicles: Luminous Avenger iX 2 Double Pack New 80.48 Collar X Malice New 30.49 Collection of Mana New 25.5 Contra Anniversary Collection New 41.45 Contra Anniversary Collection New 41.45 Cooking Mama: Cookstar New 36.11 Corpse Killer: 25th Anniversary Edition New 42.7 Cosmo Dreamer & Like Dreamer: Double-D Collection New 25.00 Cris Tales New 13.99 Crisis Core: Final Fantasy VII Reunion CIB+ 29 CrossCode New 52.99 Crossing Souls - Special Reserve New 40.00 Cruis'n Blast New 20.48 Crystal Crisis New 31.52 Cthulhu Saves Christmas New 45.17 Cult of the Lamb [Special Reserve] New 72.48 Dandara: Trials of Fear Edition CIB+ 41.29 Dark Devotion New 45.49 Darksiders Genesis CIB+ 18 Darkwood CIB+ 108.46 DARQ: Complete Edition New 38.97 Dawn of the Monsters New 50.36 Dead Cells: Return to Castlevania Edition New 32.01 Dead or School New 52.03 Deadly Premonition 2: A Blessing in Disguise CIB+ 16.77 Deadly Premonition Origins New 38.03 Death end re;Quest New 41.97 Death Road to Canada New 40 Death's Door [Special Reserve] New 33.03 Death's Gambit: Afterlife New 38.72 Demon Throttle [Reserve Edition] New 25.25 Demon Throttle [Reserve Edition] New 25.25 Demon Turf New 40.82 Demon's Tilt New 44.5 Deponia Collection New 83.14 Dex New 48.38 Diablo III: Eternal Collection New 25.77 Digimon Survive New 20.95 Dimension Drive [Limited Edition] New 65.48 Disaster Report 4: Summer Memories CIB+ 25.5 DISC ROOM [SWITCH RESERVE] New 38.69 Disgaea 5 Complete New 39.5 Disney Classic Games: Aladdin and the Lion King New 18.29 Disney Tsum Tsum Festival New 26.55 DISTRAINT Collection New 33.76 Divinity: Original Sin II - Definitive Edition New 180.49 Dodgeball Academia New 19.5 DoDonPachi Resurrection New 55.38 Doki Doki Literature Club Plus! New 30.49 Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze CIB+ 32.97 DOOM CIB+ 28.9 Doom 64 New 45.45 DOOM Eternal New 89 DOOM: The Classics Collection New 50.5 Double Dragon & Kunio-Kun Retro Brawler Bundle New 52.83 Double Dragon IV New 33.97 Double Dragon: Neon New 50.49 Downwell [Special Reserve Edition] New 75 Double Switch: 25th Anniversary Edition New 55.89 Dragon Ball Z: Kakarot + A New Power Awakens Set New 30.8 Dragon Quest Treasures New 29.53 Dragon Quest XI S: Echoes of an Elusive Age - Definitive Edition New 46.97 Dragon Star Varnir New 45.49 Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen CIB+ 24.74 Dragon's Lair Trilogy New 144.25 DRAINUS New 63.39 Dreamscaper New 44.72 Dusk New 44.49 Eastward CIB+ 20.3 Eldest Souls New 45.5 Elliot Quest New 28.48 Enclave HD New 52.67 Ender Lilies: Quietus of the Knights New 63.97 Endling - Extinction is Forever New 25.76 Epic Chef New 15.57 Espgaluda II New 60.27 Fairy Fencer F: Advent Dark Force New 48.41 FAR: Lone Sails New 49.69 Fast RMX New 71.73 Fatal Twelve New 44.49 Fault Milestone One New 28.49 Fight'N Rage New 45.49 FINAL FANTASY VII & VIII REMASTERED TWIN PACK CIB+ 37.63 Final Fantasy X / X-2 HD Remaster New 51.33 Final Fantasy XII: The Zodiac Age New 31.61 Fire Emblem Engage New 35.07 Fire Emblem Warriors: Three Hopes New 20.17 Fire Emblem: Three Houses New 45.45 Flinthook New 45.49 Flipping Death CIB+ 28.39 Foretales New 19.29 Forgotton Anne CIB+ 35.49 Fran Bow New 111.48 Freedom Finger CIB+ 77.4 Freedom Planet New 57.39 Furi CIB+ 48.64 Gal Metal: World Tour Edition CIB+ 17.69 Garden Story New 46.5 Gato Roboto [Special Reserve Edition] New 55.49 Ghost 1.0 + Unepic Collection: Standard Edition New 80.5 Ghost of a Tale New 66.61 Going Under New 37.47 Golf Story New 82.75 Gotta Protectors: Cart of Darkness New 45.35 Grandia HD Collection New 82.51 GrimGrimoire OnceMore [Deluxe Edition] New 42.33 GRIS [Limited Special Reserve] CIB+ 85.25 Guacamelee! One-Two Punch Collection CIB+ 87.57 Gunbrick: Reloaded New 24.68 Gunlord X New 107.79 Guns, Gore & Cannoli 1 & 2 New 105.28 Gunvolt Chronicles: Luminous Avenger iX New 84.5 Gyakuten Saiban 123: Naruhodo Selection New 41.49 Hades New 39.19 Haven New 45.49 Heaven's Vault New 32.15 Hero Must Die. Again New 56.5 Heroland Knowble Edition New 18.63 Hollow Knight CIB+ 31.5 Horgihugh and Friends New 28.18 Hot Wheels Unleashed New 22.03 Hotline Miami Collection [Special Reserve] New 54.36 Hyper Light Drifter [Special Edition] New 72.29 Hyrule Warriors: Definitive Edition CIB+ 49.69 Ib New 55.46 Ikenfell New 42.56 Immortals Fenyx Rising New 15.22 In Sound Mind: Deluxe Edition New 21.81 Indivisible New 19.41 Infernax New 50.5 Inscryption [Special Reserve] New 283.5 Ion Fury New 35.35 ITTA CIB+ 45.74 ITTA [Steelbook Edition] New 65.84 Ittle Dew 2+ New 43.45 Jamestown+ New 50.98 Joe Dever's Lone Wolf New 65.54 Katamari Damacy REROLL New 23.45 Katanakami New 42.3 Kaze and the Wild Masks New 32.44 KeyWe New 25.49 Killer Queen Black New 16.13 King's Bounty II New 17.85 Kingdom Hearts: Melody of Memory New 20.59 Kingdoms of Amalur: Re-Reckoning CIB+ 19.98 Kirby and the Forgotten Land CIB+ 37.97 Knights and Bikes New 45.49 Kotodama: The 7 Mysteries of Fujisawa New 19.45 KUNAI New 40.5 L.A. Noire CIB+ 29.99 Lair of the Clockwork God New 39.13 Layers of Fear: Legacy New 147.86 LEGO Star Wars: The Skywalker Saga New 20.48 Little Nightmares II CIB+ 20.75 Live A Live CIB+ 26.42 Lonely Mountains: Downhill SRG#46 New 86.79 Loop Hero CIB+ 35.47 Loop Hero [Collectors Edition] New 80.75 Love Esquire [Limited Edition] New 90.5 LoveKami Trilogy New 45.87 Luigi's Mansion 3 CIB+ 33.25 Lumines Remastered New 32.5 LUNARK New 49.52 Mario + Rabbids Sparks of Hope CIB+ 15.42 Mario + Rabbids: Kingdom Battle CIB+ 12.5 Mario Kart 8 Deluxe New 38.35 Mario Party: Superstars CIB+ 39.5 Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3: The Black Order New 41.5 Mary Skelter 2 New 45.49 Mary Skelter: Finale New 49.39 Mato Anomalies New 19.73 Mega Man 11 New 20.48 Mega Man Zero/ZX Legacy Collection CIB+ 24.5 Megadimension Neptunia VII New 45.5 Metroid Dread CIB+ 35.34 Metroid Prime Remastered New 34.34 Mighty Gunvolt Burst New 44.45 Mighty Switch Force! Collection CIB+ 45.49 Ministry of Broadcast New 26.72 Minoria New 50.47 Miracle Snack Shop [Limited Edition] New 35.00 Moero Chronicle Hyper New 90.35 Moero Crystal H New 50.77 Momodora: Reverie Under the Moonlight New 71.68 MONARK Deluxe Edition New 37 Monster Boy and the Cursed Kingdom New 78.59 Monster Hunter Generations Ultimate New 42.69 Monster Hunter Rise CIB+ 15.49 Monster Hunter Stories 2: Wings of Ruin New 31.49 Monster Sanctuary New 58.46 Monstrum New 38.5 Mother Russia Bleeds [Special Reserve] New 59.25 Mother Russia Bleeds [Special Reserve] New 59.25 Ms. Splosion Man CIB+ 31.98 Mulaka New 60.00 Murder By Numbers Collectors Edition New 80.36 Mushihimesama New 60.7 My Friend Pedro [Special Reserve Edition] New 79.7 Narita Boy New 45.55 NEO: The World Ends With You CIB+ 20.5 NeoGeo Pocket Color Selection Vol. 1 New 43.06 Neon Abyss New 42.38 Neversong & Pinstripe CIB+ 37.5 New Pokémon Snap CIB+ 31.81 New Super Lucky's Tale New 33.59 New Super Mario Bros. U Deluxe New 39.5 Ni no Kuni II: Revenant Kingdom - Prince's Edition New 18.14 Ni no Kuni: Wrath of the White Witch New 26.5 NieR: Automata - The End of YoRHa Edition New 39.5 Night in the Woods New 59.92 Night Trap: 25th Anniversary Edition New 56.06 Ninja Gaiden: Master Collection New 50.42 No Man's Sky CIB+ 26.25 No More Heroes CIB+ 40.5 No More Heroes 2: Desperate Struggle CIB+ 35.92 No More Heroes III CIB+ 15.5 Ocean's Heart New 53.33 Octahedron New 45.43 Octopath Traveler New 52.43 Octopath Traveler II New 39.99 Oddworld - Collection New 36.25 à Âkami HD New 32.99 One Step From Eden New 34.15 Oniken + Odallus Collection New 36.51 Opus Collection CIB+ 22.49 Ori: The Collection New 28.97 Othercide New 32.45 Outlast: Bundle of Terror / Outlast 2 CIB+ 277.52 Overlord: Escape from Nazarick New 35.97 Owlboy CIB+ 16.48 Oxenfree New 99.53 Panzer Dragoon New 40.5 Panzer Paladin New 48.13 Paper Mario: The Origami King CIB+ 36.5 Pathway New 27.6 Phoenotopia: Awakening [Premium Edition] New 114.25 Pikmin 3 Deluxe CIB+ 39.75 Pikmin 4 New 42.79 Piofiore: Fated Memories New 27.95 PixelJunk Eden 2 New 25.49 Pocky & Rocky Reshrined New 25.49 Pokémon Brilliant Diamond CIB+ 32.75 Pokémon Legends: Arceus New 41.19 Pokémon Mystery Dungeon: Rescue Team DX CIB+ 40.5 Pokémon Sword CIB+ 30.26 Pokémon Violet New 44.5 Pokémon: Let's Go, Pikachu! CIB+ 35.47 Postal Redux New 25.5 PowerSlave: Exhumed New 65.06 Prinny Presents NIS Classics Volume 2 [Deluxe Edition] New 43.99 Prodeus New 40.67 Project Warlock New 67.14 Puyo Puyo Tetris New 17.5 Q.U.B.E. 2 New 51.32 Quake New 38.49 Radiant Silvergun New 58.09 Rainbow Billy: The Curse of the Leviathan New 23.82 Razion EX New 137.71 realMyst: Masterpiece Edition New 78.08 République: Anniversary Edition New 35.49 Return of the Obra Dinn New 58.18 Return to Monkey Island CIB+ 43.09 Return to Shironagasu Island CIB+ 28.5 Risk of Rain 2 New 14.7 River City Girls CIB+ 80.23 River City Girls 2 New 50.5 River City Girls [PAX Variant] New 142.6 River City Girls Zero New 44.49 River City: Rival Showdown New 30.49 Rogue Heroes: Ruins of Tasos CIB+ 46.5 Roki CIB+ 39.07 Rolling Sky Collection CIB+ 20.00 Root Film New 34.09 RUINER [SWITCH RESERVE] New 54.47 Rune Factory 3 Special New 23.41 Rune Factory 3 Special New 23.41 Rune Factory 4 Special [Archival Edition] New 153.5 Sakuna: Of Rice and Ruin New 27.5 Sally Face [Deluxe Edition] New 224.81 Sam & Max Save the World New 43.5 Sam & Max: Beyond Time and Space Remastered New 44 Samurai Jack: Battle Through Time New 70.48 Save me Mr Tako: Definitive Edition New 33.5 Scott Pilgrim vs. The World: The Game - Complete Edition New 32.49 Sea Horizon [Limited Edition] New 42.49 Sea of Solitude: The Director's Cut New 20.00 Seabed New 40.42 SeaBed [Limited Edition] New 135.38 Senran Kagura Reflexions New 129.74 Senren * Banka New 86.76 SENSEs: Midnight [Limited Edition] New 47.43 Serious Sam Collection [Switch Reserve] New 60.49 Seven Pirates H New 51.25 Seven Pirates H New 51.25 Seven Pirates H New 51.25 Shadow Man Remastered New 48.39 Shadowgate New 62.5 Shadowrun Trilogy New 56.64 Shadows of Adam New 34.49 Shadowverse: Champion's Battle New 21.95 Shantae New 39.34 Shantae and the Pirate's Curse New 381.21 Shantae and the Pirate's Curse Box 49.62 Shantae and the Seven Sirens New 50.2 Shantae: Half-Genie Hero [Ultimate Edition] New 38.2 Shantae: Risky's Revenge New 38.51 Shaq Fu: A Legend Reborn New 19.57 Shikhondo: Soul Eater New 34.44 Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne HD Remaster New 25.5 Shin Megami Tensei V New 22.38 Shin Megami Tensei V New 22.38 Shining Resonance Refrain [Draconic Launch Edition] New 48.6 Signalis New 32.03 Sine Mora EX New 23.02 Skelattack New 50.49 Slime-san New 43.74 Smile For Me New 46.94 SNK Heroines Tag Team Frenzy New 29.15 Sol Cresta: Dramatic Edition New 45.48 Sonic Colors Ultimate CIB+ 15.48 Sonic Frontiers CIB+ 21.62 Sonic Mania New 16.51 Spiritfarer New 28.95 Splatoon 2 CIB+ 19.67 Splatoon 3 New 43.99 Star Wars Pinball New 19.72 Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic New 60.49 Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords New 59.79 Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic II - The Sith Lords New 59.79 Star Wars: Republic Commando New 26.45 Steel Assault New 48 Streets of Rage 4 New 33.45 Strife: Veteran Edition New 37.72 Subnautica + Subnautica: Below Zero New 32.49 Super Blood Hockey New 60.96 Super Bomberman R New 20.42 Super Mario 3D All-Stars CIB+ 82.33 Super Mario 3D World + Bowser's Fury CIB+ 39.5 Super Mario Bros. Wonder CIB 38.99 Super Mario Maker 2 CIB+ 30.48 Super Mario Odyssey New 39.59 Super Mario RPG New 39.93 Super Meat Boy New 38.5 Super Meat Boy Forever New 25.98 Super Monkey Ball Banana Mania New 13.48 Super Smash Bros. Ultimate CIB+ 38.74 Supraland New 33.75 Sushi Striker: The Way of Sushido New 12.17 Taiko no Tatsujin Rhythm Festival New 15.5 Tails of Iron [Crimson Knight Edition] New 42.89 Tales of Vesperia: Definitive Edition New 30.41 Tandem: A Tale of Shadows New 20.48 Terraria New 24.66 Caligula Effect 2 New 56.3 Caligula Effect: Overdose New 61.95 DioField Chronicle CIB+ 25.46 Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim CIB+ 35.31 Falconeer: Warrior Edition New 18.88 Friends Of Ringo Ishikawa New 26.73 Great Ace Attorney Chronicles CIB+ 30.98 Knight Witch Deluxe Edition New 32.07 Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel III - Extracurricular Edition CIB+ 31.77 Legend of Tianding New 51.61 Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild CIB+ 34 Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening CIB+ 32.57 Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword HD CIB+ 31.24 Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom New 47.46 Letter: A Horror Visual Novel [Limited Edition] New 73.75 The Messenger [Special Reserve Games Edition] New 280.00 Missing CIB+ 35.5 Mummy Demastered New 57.71 Red Lantern New 58.5 RED STRINGS CLUB [SWITCH RESERVE] New 38.5 Silver Case 2425 Deluxe Edition CIB 35.5 TakeOver New 47.41 Talos Principle New 51.62 Touryst New 68.88 Wonderful 101: Remastered New 23.5 World Ends with You: Final Remix New 53.95 There Is No Game: Wrong Dimension New 53.51 Thumper New 45.45 Time on Frog Island CIB+ 17.43 Timespinner [Limited Run] CIB+ 77.28 Tiny Barbarian DX New 33.97 To The Moon New 67.98 ToeJam & Earl: Back in the Groove! CIB+ 49.86 Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE Encore New 66.72 Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE Encore New 66.72 TowerFall New 45.5 Transistor CIB+ 61.01 Travis Strikes Again: No More Heroes CIB+ 24.99 Treasures Of The Aegean New 17.98 Triangle Strategy New 37.47 Trigger Witch New 34.59 Trigger Witch - Limited Edition New 57.66 Trover Saves the Universe New 37.76 Turok / Turok 2: Seeds of Evil New 167.4 Twin Blades of the Three Kingdoms New 50.5 Two Point Hospital New 26.5 UnderMine New 51.08 Unravel Two CIB+ 18.35 Unreal Life New 39.15 Unsighted New 47.2 Untitled Goose Game New 22.45 Valfaris New 39.64 Valis: The Fantasm Soldier Collection New 70.61 Valis: The Fantasm Soldier Collection II New 50.5 Valkyria Chronicles 4 New 66.81 Very Very Valet New 17.77 Wandersong CIB+ 33.99 Warborn New 16.6 Warhammer 40,000: Mechanicus CIB+ 21 WarioWare: Get it Together! CIB+ 24.55 West of Dead New 39.1 Wizard of Legend New 62.66 Wonder Boy: The Dragon's Trap New 39.14 World Of Simulators New 45 Wreckfest New 25.5 Wulverblade New 68.83 Xenoblade Chronicles 2 Loose 42.6 Xenoblade Chronicles 2 CIB+ 48.49 Xenoblade Chronicles 2: Torna the Golden Country New 58.45 Xenoblade Chronicles 3 New 39.49 Xenoblade Chronicles: Definitive Edition New 45.5 Xtreme Sports New 50.5 Yoku's Island Express CIB+ 35.5 Yooka-Laylee and the Impossible Lair New 35.5 Yoshi's Crafted World CIB+ 36.75 Young Souls New 34.49 Yu-Gi-Oh! Legacy of the Duelist: Link Evolution CIB+ 17.69 Yuppie Psycho: Executive Edition (Elite Edition) New 45.49 Yurukill: The Calumniation Games (Deluxe Edition) New 20.73 Zombies Ate My Neighbors and Ghoul Patrol New 40.09
PS4
88 Antarctica New 45.00 Antartica 88 [Variant Cover] New 185.5 Deadpool CIB+ 76.33 Deadpool CIB+ 76.33 Death Park New 75.48 Death Park New 75.48 Death Park New 75.48 Death Park New 75.48 Digimon Survive New 16.55 Divinity: Original Sin II - Definitive Edition New 71 Doki Doki Literature Club Plus! New 21.17 Helldivers [Super-Earth Ultimate Edition] CIB+ 62.97 Minecraft: Story Mode - A Telltale Games Series - The Complete Adventure CIB+ 58.41 Outriders: Worldslayer New 18.48 Revenge of The Bird King New 31.99 Saints Row: The Third Remastered New 15.1 Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal [At the Seams Edition] New 60.49 Senran Kagura Burst Re:Newal [Tailor Made Edition] New 47.99 Senran Kagura: Peach Beach Splash (No Shirt, No Shoes, All Service Edition) New 71.5 Shadow Warrior 2 [Special Reserve Edition] New 235.52 Super Perils of Baking Special Edition [SEGA Outerbox] New 200.5 Swords of Ditto: Mormo's Curse [Special Reserve Edition] New 47.1 Tamashii New 734.39 Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles: Mutants in Manhattan CIB+ 51.58 Valkyria Chronicles Remastered Steelbook Edition New 30.45
Vita
2064: Read Only Memories New 67.97 88 Heroes New 40.6 99Vidas New 125.97 Hole New World New 48.82 Rose in the Twilight New 192 Winter's Daydream [Limited Edition] New 64.1 Aegis of Earth: Protonovus Assault New 26.49 Akiba's Beat New 30.25 Akiba's Trip: Undead & Undressed CIB+ 25.49 Alone With You New 38.5 Angry Birds Star Wars New 20.48 Another World: 20th Anniversary Edition New 40.49 Antiquia Lost New 34.75 Aqua Kitty: Milk Mine Defender DX New 51.5 Army Corps of Hell New 23.99 Asdivine Hearts New 35.46 Astro Aqua Kitty [Limited Edition] New 64.7 Atari Flashback Classics New 60.61 Atelier Escha & Logy Plus: Alchemists of the Dusk Sky (Limited Edition) New 168.49 Awesome Pea Collection [Limited Edition] CIB+ 40.1 Axiom Verge Multiverse Edition New 56.56 Back in 1995 [Limited Edition] New 191.4 Bard's Gold New 33 Bastion New 64.16 Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate CIB+ 23.67 Bit.Trip Presents...Runner2: Future Legend of Rhythm Alien New 33.49 Bit.Trip Presents...Runner2: Future Legend of Rhythm Alien New 33.49 Bloodstained: Curse of the Moon New 118.23 Borderlands 2 CIB+ 23.49 Breach & Clear New 308.01 Broken Age New 33.77 Bunny Must Die: Chelsea and the 7 Devils New 95 Call of Duty: Black Ops Declassified CIB+ 22.29 Call of Duty: Black Ops Declassified Loose 18.98 Chaos;Child New 45.61 Chasm CIB+ 60.49 Child of Light CIB+ 24.56 Claire: Extended Cut CIB+ 35.17 Code:Realize - Future Blessings Loose 14.9 Code:Realize - Guardian of Rebirth New 25.5 Code:Realize - Guardian of Rebirth Loose 14.2 Conga Master Go! [Limited Edition] New 51.83 Corpse Party: Blood Drive New 58.77 Cosmic Star Heroine CIB+ 43.25 Criminal Girls 2: Party Favors CIB+ 74.09 Criminal Girls: Invite Only CIB+ 54.49 Croixleur Sigma New 40.49 Cursed Castilla EX [Limited Edition] New 60.5 Curses 'N Chaos New 38.72 Damascus Gear: Operation Osaka New 40.51 Damascus Gear: Operation Tokyo New 41 Danganronpa 2: Goodbye Despair Loose 19.41 Danganronpa 2: Goodbye Despair Loose 19.41 Danganronpa Another Episode: Ultra Despair Girls New 31.5 Danganronpa V3: Killing Harmony CIB+ 58.89 Danganronpa: Trigger Happy Havoc CIB+ 25.97 Dariusburst: Chronicle Saviours New 47.38 Deadbolt New 42.44 Death Mark CIB+ 23.22 Death Tales [Limited Edition] New 40.4 Deemo: The Last Recital New 34.22 Defender's Quest: Valley of the Forgotten New 37.86 Demon Gaze Loose 22.22 Demon Gaze CIB+ 25.81 Demon Gaze II New 74.66 Demon's Tier+ [Limited Edition] CIB+ 55.49 Dengeki Bunko: Fighting Climax CIB+ 25.5 Devious Dungeon - Limited Edition CIB+ 67.38 Devious Dungeon 2 [Limited Edition] New 84.5 Digimon Story: Cyber Sleuth CIB+ 65.9 Disgaea 4: A Promise Revisited CIB+ 25.49 Dokuro New 52.94 Dragon Fantasy: The Black Tome of Ice New 34.5 Dragon Fantasy: The Volumes of Westeria New 40.49 Dragon Sinker: Descendants of Legend New 35.5 Dungeon Travelers 2: The Royal Library & The Monster Seal CIB+ 53 Dynasty Warriors: Next Loose 16.66 Earth Defense Force 2: Invaders from Planet Space New 28.19 EMMA: Lost in Memories [Limited Edition] New 52.49 Exile's End New 39.65 Exist Archive: The Other Side of The Sky Loose 18.48 Fate/Extella: The Umbral Star Noble Phantasm Edition New 46.26 Fernz Gate New 30.69 Final Fantasy X / X-2 HD Remaster Loose 25.49 Final Fantasy X-2 HD Remaster New 61.19 Forma.8 New 32.5 Freedom Wars CIB+ 13.48 Furwind [Limited Edition] CIB+ 40.5 Futuridium EP Deluxe New 45.97 Gal*Gun: Double Peace CIB+ 32.34 Ghoulboy [Limited Edition] New 160.5 God of War Collection New 74.75 Grand Kingdom New 47.6 Gravity Rush CIB+ 44.5 Guacamelee! New 70.48 Guard Duty [Limited Edition] CIB+ 47.38 Gundemoniums New 84.18 Gunhouse New 30.38 Habroxia New 129.94 Habroxia 2 [Limited Edition] New 65.5 Halloween Forever [Limited Edition] New 74.5 Home: A Unique Horror Adventure New 35.92 Horizon Chase Turbo [Limited Edition] New 76.81 Hot Shots Golf: World Invitational New 26.19 HtoL#NiQ The Firefly Diary: Limited Edition New 59.25 Hue New 40.5 Hyperdevotion Noire: Goddess Black Heart CIB+ 35.5 Hyperdimension Neptunia PP: Producing Perfection CIB+ 35.97 Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth1 CIB+ 47.01 Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth1 CIB+ 47.01 Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth2: Sisters Generation CIB+ 60.49 Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth2: Sisters Generation CIB+ 60.49 Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth3: V Generation CIB+ 55.95 Hyperdimension Neptunia Re;Birth3: V Generation CIB+ 55.95 Hyperdimension Neptunia U: Action Unleashed CIB+ 43.81 Iconoclasts New 96.5 Indigo 7 : Quest for Love New ? Jak and Daxter Collection CIB+ 50.49 Jet Set Knights [Limited Edition] New 100.5 Jet Set Knights [Limited Edition] New 100.5 Just Ignore them + My Big Sister Collection New 60.49 Kawaii Deathu Desu New 45.5 Killzone: Mercenary Loose 24.49 Killzone: Mercenary CIB+ 32.68 Knightin' + [Limited Edition] New 60.45 Knytt Underground New 128.14 La-Mulana Ex New 38.03 LEGO Batman 2: DC Super Heroes Loose 11.33 LEGO Jurassic World CIB+ 13.44 LEGO Ninjago: Shadow of Ronin Loose 17.12 LEGO Star Wars: The Force Awakens New 28.75 LEGO Star Wars: The Force Awakens Loose 12.21 LEGO The Lord of the Rings Loose 10.49 Lone Survivor: The Director's Cut New 42.49 Luckslinger [Limited Edition] New 60.41 Lumines: Electronic Symphony New 18.61 Mary Skelter: Nightmares CIB+ 92.87 MegaTagmension Blanc + Neptune VS Zombies New 37.58 MeiQ: Labyrinth of Death CIB+ 25.39 Mercenary Kings: Reloaded Edition [Limited Edition] New 106.71 Metagal [Limited Edition] CIB+ 100.35 Metal Gear Solid HD Collection CIB+ 46.49 Metal Slug 3 New 115.48 Mind Zero CIB+ 20.48 Mooseman [Limited Edition] New 119.05 Mortal Kombat CIB+ 26.99 MotoGP 13 CIB+ 23.83 MUSYNX New 50.49 Muv-Luv New 53.36 Muv-Luv Alternative New 66.95 Muv-Luv Complete Set New 90.5 My Aunt is a Witch [Limited Edition] New 55.5 Mystery Chronicle: One Way Heroics New 27.94 Need for Speed: Most Wanted - A Criterion Game CIB+ 20.32 Neurovoider New 35.5 Nicole [Limited Edition] New 48.22 Night Trap: 25th Anniversary Edition New 58.99 Nova-111 New 28.67 Nurse Love Addiction New 59.18 Nurse Love Syndrome New 50.49 Nurse Love Syndrome Loose 15.49 Oceanhorn: Monster of Uncharted Seas New 52 Octodad: Dadliest Catch New 46.36 Oddworld: Abe's Oddysee - New 'n' Tasty New 149.5 Oddworld: Munch's Oddysee HD New 52.5 Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath HD New 69.73 Odin Sphere Leifthrasir CIB+ 72.45 Odin Sphere Leifthrasir Loose 70.5 One More Dungeon CIB+ 60 Operation Abyss: New Tokyo Legacy CIB+ 31.5 Oreshika: Tainted Bloodlines New 93 Pantsu Hunter: Back to the 90s New 156.5 Papers, Please New 115.47 Pato Box [Limited Edition] New 73.23 Penny-Punching Princess New 45.41 Period: Cube - Shackles of Amadeus New 54.65 Persona 4 Golden Loose 25.37 Persona 4 Golden New 61.12 Persona 4: Dancing All Night - Disco Fever Edition New 145.5 Phantom Breaker: Battle Grounds New 53.5 Pix the Cat New 28.84 Plague Road New 43.4 PlayStation All-Stars Battle Royale New 31.74 Proteus New 36.49 Psychedelica of the Ashen Hawk New 51.5 Psychedelica of the Ashen Hawk New 51.5 Psychedelica of the Black Butterfly CIB+ 33.57 Psycho-Pass Mandatory Happiness CIB+ 28.99 Pushy and Pully in Block Land New 70.45 Rabi-Ribi New 93.59 Rainbow Moon New 44.89 Ray Gigant New 102.84 Rayman Legends Loose 17.37 Rayman Origins CIB+ 16.71 Retro City Rampage DX [Re-Release] New 35.00 Revenant Dogma New 35.36 Revenant Saga New 29.44 Reverie [Limited Edition] CIB+ 43.49 Riddled Corpses EX New 40.49 Risk of Rain New 38 Rock Boshers DX New 29.34 Rocketbirds 2: Evolution New 55.5 Rocketbirds: Hardboiled Chicken New 43.2 Root Double [Xtend Edition] New 53.5 Root Letter New 46.11 Salt and Sanctuary New 100.49 Salt and Sanctuary New 100.49 Saturday Morning RPG New 50.49 Sayonara Umihara Kawase++ New 67.33 ScourgeBringer [Limited Edition] New 59.97 ScourgeBringer [Limited Edition] New 59.97 Senran Kagura Shinovi Versus: Let's Get Physical Edition New 115.5 Senran Kagura: Bon Appétit! New 150.44 Senran Kagura: Bon Appétit! Full Course - Collector's Edition New 185.13 Senran Kagura: Estival Versus Endless Summer Edition New 115.48 Sense: A Cyberpunk Ghost Story New 155.5 Severed [Limited Edition] New 100.81 Shakedown: Hawaii CIB+ 36.85 Shantae: Half-Genie Hero CIB+ 37.5 Shinobido 2: Revenge of Zen CIB+ 38.67 Shovel Knight New 96.49 Sid Meier's Civilization Revolution 2+ CIB+ 76.26 Silent Hill: Book of Memories CIB+ 76.38 Sir Eatsalot [Limited Edition] CIB+ 53.08 Siralim New 50.5 Siralim 2 New 30.49 Skullgirls: 2nd Encore New 52.81 Sky Force Anniversary New 75.48 Slain: Back From Hell [Signature Edition] New 76.5 Sly Cooper Collection CIB+ 52.27 Smart as... CIB+ 9.67 Soldner-X 2: Final Prototype New 44.12 Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed CIB+ 23.56 Sorcery Saga: Curse of the Great Curry God [Limited edition] New 80.5 Soul Sacrifice CIB+ 17.36 Soul Sacrifice Delta New 105.5 Spelunky New 70.5 Spy Hunter CIB+ 24.31 Stay [Limited Edition] New 130.5 Stealth Inc: A Clone in the Dark (Ultimate Edition) New 29.13 SteamWorld Dig New 55.72 SteamWorld Heist New 52.97 Steins;Gate CIB+ 30.58 Steins;Gate 0 CIB+ 29.49 Stranger of sword city limited edition New 63.57 Super Hydorah New 47.9 Super Meat Boy New 60.5 Super Mutant Alien Assault New 34.9 Super Skull Smash GO! 2 Turbo New 42.35 SUPERBEAT: XONiC New 28.49 Superdimension Neptune VS Sega Hard Girls New 58.5 Sword Art Online: Hollow Fragment New 65.48 Synergia [Limited Edition] New 110.49 Tachyon Project Limited Edition New 55.35 Takotan [Limited Edition] New 51.59 Tales from Space: Mutant Blobs Attack New 50.24 Tales of Hearts R CIB+ 69.48 Tales of Hearts R Loose 50.5 Task Force Kampas New 36.5 Tetris Ultimate New 70.47 Tetris Ultimate New 70.47 Amazing Spider-Man CIB+ 64.75 Amazing Spider-Man CIB+ 64.75 Bard's Tale: Remastered and Resnarkled New 50.49 Bit.Trip Limited Edition New 33.5 Count Lucanor [Signature Edition] New 144.47 House in Fata Morgana: Dreams of the Revenants Edition CIB+ 99.5 House in Fata Morgana: Dreams of the Revenants Edition M+B 40.1 King of Fighters '97: Global Match New 64.81 Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel CIB+ 36.49 Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel (Lionheart Limited Edition) New 72.39 Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel II CIB+ 57.82 Longest Five Minutes New 32.5 Lost Child New 56.03 Lost Cube [Limited Edition] New 50.49 Ratchet and Clank Trilogy CIB+ 72.77 Swapper New 51.48 Swindle New 27.51 Walking Dead: Season Two - A Telltale Games Series New 22.61 Thomas Was Alone New 33.5 Tokyo Xanadu New 49.32 Touch My Katamari CIB+ 33.72 Twin Breaker: A Sacred Symbols Adventure [Limited Edition] CIB+ 47.09 Ultimate Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 CIB+ 31.21 Ultimate Marvel Vs. Capcom 3 CIB+ 31.21 Uncharted: Golden Abyss CIB+ 27.23 Uncharted: Golden Abyss CIB+ 27.23 Undertale New 66.38 Unepic [Limited Edition] New 274.98 UnMetal New 163.32 Utawarerumono: Mask of Deception New 72.27 Utawarerumono: Mask of Truth - Launch Edition New 36.5 Utawarerumono: Mask of Truth - Launch Edition New 36.5 VA-11 Hall-A New 79.91 Valkyrie Drive: Bhikkhuni CIB+ 66.81 Vasara Collection New 98.5 Velocity 2X: Critical Mass Edition New 63.05 Volume New 32.25 Windjammers New 35.83 Wipeout 2048 New 31.24 World of Final Fantasy New 33.99 Xeno Crisis [Limited Edition] New 100.5 Xeno Crisis [Limited Edition] New 100.5 Xeno Crisis [Limited Edition] New 100.5 Xenon Valkyrie+ New 68.11 Xeodrifter New 44.2 Yomawari: Midnight Shadows CIB+ 33.71 Yomawari: Night Alone / htol#NiQ: The Firefly Diary CIB+ 40.5 Ys Origin New 56.4 Ys VIII: Lacrimosa of DANA New 72.34 Ys: Memories of Celceta CIB+ 25.99 Yumeutsutsu Re:After [Limited Edition] New 82.97 Yumeutsutsu Re:Master [Limited Edition] New 75.48 Zero Escape: Virtue's Last Reward CIB+ 15.5 Zero Escape: Zero Time Dilemma New 33.17 Zero Escape: Zero Time Dilemma Loose 24.51
3DS
Aliens: Infestation Loose 59.32 Minecraft: New Nintendo 3DS Edition New 34.72 New Nintendo 2DS XL White & Orange Loose 206.5 Senran Kagura 2: Deep Crimson (Double D Edition) New 70.5 Senran Kagura 2: Deep Crimson (Double D Edition) New 70.5 Shantae and the Pirate's Curse [Collector's Edition] New 89.39 Shantae and the Pirate's Curse [Collector's Edition] New 89.39
2024.05.14 05:51 MadreDeFlores Telling my best friend she can’t bring her baby to my birthday weekend.
I’m having a girls weekend for my birthday. I have children and I wanted a no kids, just girlfriends weekend with my closest friends. Most everyone I invited has children. One of my best friends has a 6 month old who is still breastfeeding. She asked if it was ok to bring the baby and I told her that I’m sorry but I really wanted this weekend to be kid free. I told her there’s no pressure if she can’t make it I understand.
Some context I have a toddler, a preschooler who is on the spectrum, and older children as well. I really just want a child free weekend away with my friends. The issue is she’s brought up the subject passively a couple times and I’ve ignored it since I already made my boundary clear. However, recently when we were hanging out she asked if she could bring the baby. She prefaced it with saying I could be 100% honest. The problem is, setting boundaries for me is very hard and she knows that. I had already made it clear on more than one occasion that I wanted a kid free weekend. She caught me off guard and I gave her a half hearted, “I guess OK.” kind of answer. She even said “you don’t sound too sure.” I don’t think I responded, and then she said that she wouldn’t even asked if the baby wasn’t so easy and chill and that if she didn’t bring the baby she probably wouldn’t be able to participate in everything. Being one of my closest friends, I reluctantly agreed.
As a last stitch effort to find a way to hopefully have her change her mind, this evening I asked her if baby sleeps through the night because I’ve been really looking forward to a good night sleep and she assured me baby did. I feel like I was backed into a corner. As a SAHM, I really really want a child free weekend. How do I tell her honestly that in fact I don’t want her to bring the baby?
submitted by MadreDeFlores to SettingBoundaries [link] [comments]
Some context I have a toddler, a preschooler who is on the spectrum, and older children as well. I really just want a child free weekend away with my friends. The issue is she’s brought up the subject passively a couple times and I’ve ignored it since I already made my boundary clear. However, recently when we were hanging out she asked if she could bring the baby. She prefaced it with saying I could be 100% honest. The problem is, setting boundaries for me is very hard and she knows that. I had already made it clear on more than one occasion that I wanted a kid free weekend. She caught me off guard and I gave her a half hearted, “I guess OK.” kind of answer. She even said “you don’t sound too sure.” I don’t think I responded, and then she said that she wouldn’t even asked if the baby wasn’t so easy and chill and that if she didn’t bring the baby she probably wouldn’t be able to participate in everything. Being one of my closest friends, I reluctantly agreed.
As a last stitch effort to find a way to hopefully have her change her mind, this evening I asked her if baby sleeps through the night because I’ve been really looking forward to a good night sleep and she assured me baby did. I feel like I was backed into a corner. As a SAHM, I really really want a child free weekend. How do I tell her honestly that in fact I don’t want her to bring the baby?
2024.05.14 05:48 ThrowRA_YesYe I’m so sick of certain friends cockblocking me every time
When we’re hanging out in groups at parties, events, if I tell them I’m into someone, they do things to shut it down. Whether it’s telling me they’re into that girl too, telling me “she’s a big flirt you won’t like her”, not giving us any alone time, being a messy drunk and making me look bad etc.
The main one is trying to discourage me from going for specfic girls, because the lesbian community is small so everyone knows each other. Their reasons are never valid in my opinion.
The thing is, these girls KNOW what cockblocking is because when it comes to them being around someone they like, they’ll shoo me away.
I don’t know if the fact that we’re gay girls is part of the reason, I know girls can be clingy but my closest friends (my best friends) are also lesbians but they don’t do any of this. In fact those friends would introduce me to girls they think I’d like.
I’m going to a party this weekend and a girl I like is going to be there, she is the one who invited me. But found out my cockblocking friend will be there, I gave her a heads up that I’ll be going with this girl but will find her later on, she said “ugh wanted to dance with you but I guess I’ll hang out with (mutual friend)” I’m dreading this party because I feel like she’ll end up cockblocking me anyway.
I do genuinely believe they know what they’re doing and want me to stay single so that I spend most of my free time with them.
I don’t think they have a crush on me, but can understand why someone would think that. I find some gay girls to be extremely possessive, even with friendships.
It hurts because all my friends praise me for being a great “wingwoman”, but I don’t get the same energy back from these specific friends.
submitted by ThrowRA_YesYe to JustNoFriend [link] [comments]
The main one is trying to discourage me from going for specfic girls, because the lesbian community is small so everyone knows each other. Their reasons are never valid in my opinion.
The thing is, these girls KNOW what cockblocking is because when it comes to them being around someone they like, they’ll shoo me away.
I don’t know if the fact that we’re gay girls is part of the reason, I know girls can be clingy but my closest friends (my best friends) are also lesbians but they don’t do any of this. In fact those friends would introduce me to girls they think I’d like.
I’m going to a party this weekend and a girl I like is going to be there, she is the one who invited me. But found out my cockblocking friend will be there, I gave her a heads up that I’ll be going with this girl but will find her later on, she said “ugh wanted to dance with you but I guess I’ll hang out with (mutual friend)” I’m dreading this party because I feel like she’ll end up cockblocking me anyway.
I do genuinely believe they know what they’re doing and want me to stay single so that I spend most of my free time with them.
I don’t think they have a crush on me, but can understand why someone would think that. I find some gay girls to be extremely possessive, even with friendships.
It hurts because all my friends praise me for being a great “wingwoman”, but I don’t get the same energy back from these specific friends.
2024.05.14 05:44 courtingdisaster Presenting the evidence: 17 May 2024
 | Come one, come all, we're clooowning again! 🤡 submitted by courtingdisaster to GaylorSwift [link] [comments] Thanks to u/1DMod for posting the Jimmy Fallon video that led to me to start to connect the dots that other creators have noticed. Long story short, we're clowning for Stockholm N1 (maybe even night ✌️ as well), buckle up clowns! ✌️First things first, May 17 is ✌️ fortnights after the release of TTPD on April 19. We know that Taylor is still throwing up peace signs which seems unnecessary if it only ever meant that there was a second part of TTPD. I think it's an indication that we haven't completely cracked that egg yet.This photo was necessary for the post, ok National/International Day OfWhile these days aren't necessarily solid proof of anything, Taylor did release TTPD on Poetry & The Creative Mind Day and also released the ME! music video (ME! Out now!) on Lesbian Visibility Day so I think it's definitely worth investigating.Let's have a look at the holidays for May 17 that could be relevant:
Direct 17/5 easter eggs
Important days in historyThese could be nothing, could be something, still worth noting.
Important events in Taylor's history on this day
Stockholm
Is Karma boutta pop-up unannounced...?
New RomanticsKristen, who I have referenced in nearly every part in this post (again, she's amazing, go follow her), has a mass coming-out theory that she has dubbed the New Romantics. I highly recommend checking out her content on Twitter and TikTok and she's also recently launched a podcast that you can read more about here for a lottttttt more information on this theory. Essentially the theory is that a large number of artists in the entertainment industry are queer and are working together as a "safety in numbers" type approach to coming out of the closet and potentially changing the industry in a monumental way.Let's have a look at some players that are relevant to either 17 May or Stockholm (or both in one person's case!):
Theories as to what exactly is coming
In SummationSomething is happening in Stockholm.I don't know what exactly but it is THE ONE to watch. I'll be there talking smack in the megathread and keeping an eye out for any new Chiefs colours. See you there, clowns! Who's clowning with me?! 🤡🤡🤡 |
2024.05.14 05:37 soberingthought 'Tude Talk Tuesday for May 14, 2024
Hello, fellow Sobernauts!
Welcome to 'Tude Talk Tuesday, where you're invited to share what changes you've noticed in your attitudes and perspectives since you've gotten sober.
I once heard someone say "I was avoiding living life" and that resonated with me.
As my drinking career progressed, I isolated more and more. My favorite way to drink was alone so that nobody could judge or try to stop me. In my last year of drinking, I skipped my wife's birthday just so I could stay home and drink by myself.
Oddly, when I contemplated getting sober, I was had so much FOMO. Craziness! Here I was ditching friends, holing up in the guest bedroom, drinking all by myself night after night and I was worried that by stopping drinking I would miss out on something?!
In sobriety, I'm out and about far more than when I was drinking. I've gone to music festivals, weddings, boozy birthday parties, etc and stayed sober at all these events. More importantly, I'm on field trips, at school plays, and on play dates with my kiddos...something I would surely have begged off back in my drinking days.
So, how about you? How are you engaging with life now that you're sober?
submitted by soberingthought to stopdrinking [link] [comments]
Welcome to 'Tude Talk Tuesday, where you're invited to share what changes you've noticed in your attitudes and perspectives since you've gotten sober.
I once heard someone say "I was avoiding living life" and that resonated with me.
As my drinking career progressed, I isolated more and more. My favorite way to drink was alone so that nobody could judge or try to stop me. In my last year of drinking, I skipped my wife's birthday just so I could stay home and drink by myself.
Oddly, when I contemplated getting sober, I was had so much FOMO. Craziness! Here I was ditching friends, holing up in the guest bedroom, drinking all by myself night after night and I was worried that by stopping drinking I would miss out on something?!
In sobriety, I'm out and about far more than when I was drinking. I've gone to music festivals, weddings, boozy birthday parties, etc and stayed sober at all these events. More importantly, I'm on field trips, at school plays, and on play dates with my kiddos...something I would surely have begged off back in my drinking days.
So, how about you? How are you engaging with life now that you're sober?
2024.05.14 05:30 CosmicGunman ANALYSIS of Four Corners: Ruthless Pursuit (2024) The Chinese Secret Police in Australia Saga
 | Following up from my last post submitted by CosmicGunman to TheDeprogram [link] [comments] From the Article, quoting below Last month, Safeguard Defenders released a report documenting more than 280 cases of foreign citizens and residents being repatriated to China. The individuals are accused of committing economic crimes.I watched the full Four-Corners episode. The phenomenon is real, however is the usual kernal of truth being framed as PRC evil subversion. The 1st Bureau cooperated with Australia at first, only for Australian Federal Police to get upset when one of the financial criminals were extradited to China which circumnavigated an agreed-upon process. The interviewees from the Australian side in the clip (including lawyer) said they cannot assume every single target was just innocently targeted, but the primary issue (correctly) is abusing sovereignty. Famously some things intelligence apparatuses never do /s. Genuinely there would be greater trust if relations were not Cold War coded. The reporter is Echo Hui and some of her professional background as a journalist Some things to note: The former agent who speaks out (called Erik) was originally a member of (by the own reporter's admission) "was a member of a u.s-based pro-democracy organisation" known as the China Social Democratic Party (CSDP). He was one day called for questioning by the Ministry of Public Security (MPS) First (1st) Bureau: Political Security Protection Bureau (PSPB). He was questioned about the organisation and given an "opportunity for redemption" (left ambiguous, were there charges?), and offered to become an agent for the MPS's 1st Bureau, to becoming an informant on his former u.s-backed organisation). All of this comes from the mouth of Erik and Echo narrating. Unlike later in the episode; where we (eventually, after sufficent fear-mongering) get the China side. On that note: The glossed-over "financial crimes" are significant. One of the "dissidents" was Edwin Yin. He was charged with Fraud in China, and Australian Courts ordered him to pay 700,000 AUD (3,345,451.83 CNY) due to "an alleged foreign exchange scam" Four-Corners talked to alleged victims which confirm yes Edwin Yin had scammed them and others. Edwin claims he is being framed by the CPC. In the clips he was also obsessed with Xi Jinping's illegitimate sons? And harassing his daughter online? Now another of the "dissidents" is a "Everyday Chinese Marketing Guru". Wang Liming, AKA: Remon Wang, Pseudonym: Rebel Pepper (originally "Abnormal/Perverse Pepper.".). Political satirist, and left China to Japan to continue his anti-government satire cartoons. In 2012 he depicts the CPC as an angler fish which has hyponitised a smaller fish, representing the people of China. Compares Xi to an Emperor, and compare's the death toll of Mao to Islamic State. In 2017 he joins Radio Free Asia (RFA), and is the sole contributor to the cartoons column. In 2018 he founds the Shanghai National Party, in New York. A national-conservative, secessionist movement. Organised and attended anti-china protests in the Queens alongside Falun Gong and Uygher-American Association. In 2018, the Shanghai National Party hosted a "Acceleration of Chinese Collapse" award ceremony in Times Square. 😐 During the Shanghai lockdowns in 2022, he claimed the quarantine methods were an attempt at genocide of the Shanghainese. Gonna share a quote. He tweeted the ultimate goal of the Shanghai independence movement was to destroy the concept of a unified China. He wrote: "We must not only fight against the Communist Party, but also win more Chinese people to abandon the shell of "China."This is sourced from: https://www.rfi.fcn/%E4%B8%AD%E5%9B%BD/20180812-%E4%B8%8A%E6%B5%B7%E6%B0%91%E6%97%8F%E5%85%9A%E5%9C%A8%E7%BA%BD%E7%BA%A6%E6%88%90%E7%AB%8B-%E5%85%AC%E5%BC%80%E8%A6%81%E6%B1%82%E4%B8%8A%E6%B5%B7%E7%8B%AC%E7%AB%8B English Translation of the Webpage: The "Shanghai National Party" was established in New York to oppose communism and demand the independence of Shanghai "So you were effectively helping the secret police track down people who were innocent of any crime. Do you feel any guilt for your involvement?"To which Erik responses with: "I'm an idealist but I'm also a pragmatist. I'm aware of the outcome one might face in China if you refuse to work with the secret police."The exposé ends with Erik saying: "They [PRC] may deny this story. They may mobilise some agents on the ground or send people to Australia [to] take measures against me, possibly getting physical. It's even possible that some agents on the ground may attempt to kidnap me. When they deal with a target like me, they may have to be more patient, smart, wait for an appropriate time to act. I'm definitely safer in Australia than in China or South-East Asia. But my safety eventually is determined by the Australian Government."Credits roll. Honorable mentions: • While operating in Cambodia, Erik's cover was being employed with Prince Real Estate, under Prince Holding Group. He was using this to eventually pursue Rebel-Pepper. Echo introduces them near the end and they share a hearty and jolly video call as they're now both "dissidents" in Melbourne. • While operating in the countryside, he larped as a anti-CCP milita (as in making videos) to get close to this other dissident, who agreed with him. Though this dissident fled to Canada, and died kayaking in a town in Canada. Erik's first reaction is that this was an extrajudicial killing, followed by saying there is no way to know for sure, since he was not personally involved in Canada operations. • FBI agent claims Xi is using diaspora for political aims, while Echo says Xi's anti-corruption portfolio was a cover to gain more power and "dissent is not allowed". |
2024.05.14 04:57 Ill_Parfait1923 17M did I sexualy harass her? Am I a pedo for this? I'm so scared please help.
When I was 12 it was my sister's birthday and she invited her friend who was also our neighbor (who I will call n) over for the party. N was 9 at the time. My parents ordered a giant inflatable slide for the party and at one point during the party me my sister and n were all playing on the inflatable slide. For some reason my 12 year old brain decided that I wanted to touch ns foot/feet because I had a foot fetish when I was 12. I think just because I wanted to touch feet due to my fetish and I guess i never touched a girls feet before so stupid 12 year old me decided that this was my opportunity to do so and from what I can remember it had nothing to do with n in my head as I wasn't attracted to her because she was too young I simply only was focused on her feet. So I literally came up with a game for me my sister and n to play where they had to run away from me and I had to try and catch them but for me I created the game just for an opportunity to grab/touch ns foot when I was chasing her but mostly my plan was to grab it when she went down the slide. From what I can remember I was successful a few times and I got to grab ns feet and I can't remember if I would feel around her foot or if I just grabbed it but the possibly that I might have felt around it scares me a lot even though i I don't think i did and I think I just grabbed the foot. I also might have tried to hold on to it as long as possible so probably around like 2 3 seconds and I feel disgusting for this and like I was a disgusting pedo especially because I think she was 3 years younger and I'm also afraid that what I did was sexual harassment or assault. Like I said it had nothing to do with n in my dumb 12 year old mind and more so with her feet and just the opportunity to get a chance to touch feet but it still makes my stomach sink and all I can do is root in my bed remembering this.
submitted by Ill_Parfait1923 to GetOffMyChest [link] [comments]
2024.05.14 04:49 redmoonhawk I told my in laws how I feel, Now I am being blackmailed
Sorry in advance if I sound like I am rambling. This just happened a few hours ago and I am still crying.
For some background, I (30 f) messaged my SIL (32f) yesterday to wish her a happy Mother’s Day and to let her know I had a gift for her and a gift for my niece (6f) for my nieces up coming birthday. I always make the kids in the family something for their birthday since I am rather crafty and prefer to be more original.
My SIL, BIL, DH and I have had a rocky relationship for years. The past couple of years I have been keeping my distance as I do not feel welcome and because I am working on boundaries. There were some accusations (most founded) that they were on drugs. That is some crap I do not want around my kids. Yet, it is my “issues” that cause tension in the family because I have decided that my little nuclear family deserves rve some peace. I only bend a little bit if there is a party because the kids adore each other.
SIL told me that my niece is having a party and we were supposed to be invited. I told her that surprised me since my MIL said she had not heard of a party. She told me this when we discussed the gift I made my niece. It is an epoxy hummingbird hair clip. It took a lot of time to get right and I was quite proud of it.
SIL said BIL was supposed to extend invites to his side of the family. MIL showed me screenshots of the messages where he asked if my kids were coming (as usual) but no word of me.
SIL wrote a huge message saying BIL didn’t have a way to get a hold of me or my DH, and that of course we were invited as we are family.
It is important to note that they hold their children above our heads as a threat to take them away at the drop of a hat if things do not go their way. This has caused a lot of drama over the past 8 years. The past 2 of which I thought we were on bad terms. This was based on some comments the kids often made and the last time we said more than 2 words to each other it was a big fight.
I told SIL that it did not seem like BIL wanted me there for anything more than my kids and that I did not feel comfortable because the only person who even mentioned that I was welcome was SIL. I have gotten to the point where if I do not feel welcome I will not go. I suffer from Fibromyalgia, depression, and anxiety. And while I am doing better to take care of myself, things are still difficult.
I told SIL that it was ok, I don’t want to cause tension and I actually had plans to see my mom this weekend. My mom lives a couple of hours away and sometimes I get to see my brother. It is cathartic for all of us as my husband gets a break before and after work and I get my family time once or twice a month. We normally craft together and have our “crafting therapy” which is something I really need lately.
The last couple of times I went to my mom’s my son was with MIL and FIL. My mom had me promise that during the summer I would bring my son with me at least once a month. I think this is fair so I agreed.
My SIL wrote a long answer that she sent when I was taking a nap, (No sleep last night so my nerves are frayed) Honestly I have read it twice and have not retained much of the message.
During my nap I missed 2 calls from my MIL. Then I woke up to my MIL bursting into my bedroom, no we do not live with her; she drove to our house, pounded on our door, DH let her in. She barged into my room and started yelling at me. How could I tell SIL that the screenshots were sent to me? How could I tell her we talk? (Huh?) Do I know that SIL called MIL screaming about everything? Do I know FIL is on the phone in a screaming match with BIL? And the last one was that SIL told MIL that if I do not come to my nieces birthday then my MIL would not be allowed to see the kids again.
I woke up to all of this. My DH was trying to figure out what was going on or how to handle it.
Just as quick as MIL came, she turned around and left. I offered to show her exactly what I said, but no. All my fault.
I know this situation is all drama. This is the first time in 2 years that I tried to have an actual conversation with SIL. I tried to be honest, not even brutally, just honest about how I feel.
After MIL left, my kids came in my room and hugged me. They heard everything. What 6 and 3 year old needs to see their mom break down like that?
I called my mom and told her everything and that I started falling into the dark hole of depression again. I know I am exhausted both physically and emotionally. I just needed to get this out.
This is not the first time taking the kids away has been used as a manipulation tool but this time I am being blamed for it. IDK what to do. I just want to curl up into a ball and hide from everything. I want to see my family and to stop feeling like a pawn of this fucked up chess game. I need to remember I am the queen of my own set, tackling my own problems on my own board. I was finally getting to a good place. I just hope this crap does not derail my progress again.
Thank you for reading my rant
submitted by redmoonhawk to TrueOffMyChest [link] [comments]
For some background, I (30 f) messaged my SIL (32f) yesterday to wish her a happy Mother’s Day and to let her know I had a gift for her and a gift for my niece (6f) for my nieces up coming birthday. I always make the kids in the family something for their birthday since I am rather crafty and prefer to be more original.
My SIL, BIL, DH and I have had a rocky relationship for years. The past couple of years I have been keeping my distance as I do not feel welcome and because I am working on boundaries. There were some accusations (most founded) that they were on drugs. That is some crap I do not want around my kids. Yet, it is my “issues” that cause tension in the family because I have decided that my little nuclear family deserves rve some peace. I only bend a little bit if there is a party because the kids adore each other.
SIL told me that my niece is having a party and we were supposed to be invited. I told her that surprised me since my MIL said she had not heard of a party. She told me this when we discussed the gift I made my niece. It is an epoxy hummingbird hair clip. It took a lot of time to get right and I was quite proud of it.
SIL said BIL was supposed to extend invites to his side of the family. MIL showed me screenshots of the messages where he asked if my kids were coming (as usual) but no word of me.
SIL wrote a huge message saying BIL didn’t have a way to get a hold of me or my DH, and that of course we were invited as we are family.
It is important to note that they hold their children above our heads as a threat to take them away at the drop of a hat if things do not go their way. This has caused a lot of drama over the past 8 years. The past 2 of which I thought we were on bad terms. This was based on some comments the kids often made and the last time we said more than 2 words to each other it was a big fight.
I told SIL that it did not seem like BIL wanted me there for anything more than my kids and that I did not feel comfortable because the only person who even mentioned that I was welcome was SIL. I have gotten to the point where if I do not feel welcome I will not go. I suffer from Fibromyalgia, depression, and anxiety. And while I am doing better to take care of myself, things are still difficult.
I told SIL that it was ok, I don’t want to cause tension and I actually had plans to see my mom this weekend. My mom lives a couple of hours away and sometimes I get to see my brother. It is cathartic for all of us as my husband gets a break before and after work and I get my family time once or twice a month. We normally craft together and have our “crafting therapy” which is something I really need lately.
The last couple of times I went to my mom’s my son was with MIL and FIL. My mom had me promise that during the summer I would bring my son with me at least once a month. I think this is fair so I agreed.
My SIL wrote a long answer that she sent when I was taking a nap, (No sleep last night so my nerves are frayed) Honestly I have read it twice and have not retained much of the message.
During my nap I missed 2 calls from my MIL. Then I woke up to my MIL bursting into my bedroom, no we do not live with her; she drove to our house, pounded on our door, DH let her in. She barged into my room and started yelling at me. How could I tell SIL that the screenshots were sent to me? How could I tell her we talk? (Huh?) Do I know that SIL called MIL screaming about everything? Do I know FIL is on the phone in a screaming match with BIL? And the last one was that SIL told MIL that if I do not come to my nieces birthday then my MIL would not be allowed to see the kids again.
I woke up to all of this. My DH was trying to figure out what was going on or how to handle it.
Just as quick as MIL came, she turned around and left. I offered to show her exactly what I said, but no. All my fault.
I know this situation is all drama. This is the first time in 2 years that I tried to have an actual conversation with SIL. I tried to be honest, not even brutally, just honest about how I feel.
After MIL left, my kids came in my room and hugged me. They heard everything. What 6 and 3 year old needs to see their mom break down like that?
I called my mom and told her everything and that I started falling into the dark hole of depression again. I know I am exhausted both physically and emotionally. I just needed to get this out.
This is not the first time taking the kids away has been used as a manipulation tool but this time I am being blamed for it. IDK what to do. I just want to curl up into a ball and hide from everything. I want to see my family and to stop feeling like a pawn of this fucked up chess game. I need to remember I am the queen of my own set, tackling my own problems on my own board. I was finally getting to a good place. I just hope this crap does not derail my progress again.
Thank you for reading my rant
2024.05.14 04:41 St_Augustine_Discord Live Music and Events Tuesday May 14th
Live Music
- JC Hatfield Trio, Mill Top Tavern, Tuesday, May 14th, 12:00 pm – 4:00 pm,
- Joshua "Tennessee" Worthy, Pierre's Pub, Tuesday, May 14th, 1:00 pm – 5:00 pm,
- Damon Slaughter, O.C. White's Seafood, Tuesday, May 14th, 5:30 pm – 8:30 pm,
- Jim Johnston, Prohibition Kitchen, Tuesday, May 14th, 6:00 pm – 9:00 pm,
- Smokin' Joe Schauer, Ann O'Malley's Deli and Pub, Tuesday, May 14th, 6:00 pm – 10:00 pm,
- Jazzy Blue Band, Cortesse's Bistro, Tuesday, May 14th, 6:00 pm – 9:00 pm.
Romanza: North Florida Saxophone Quartet
Romanza Festivale presents the North Florida Saxophone Quartet as they perform a variety of familiar music in a live concert in the Courtyard of St. Cyprian's Episcopal Church, on Sunday, May 14, 2024, beginning at 6:30 p.m.The four saxophonists have each played with various ensembles worldwide, and North Florida music lovers have been delighted that each has made playing in this quartet a priority. They choose music from several genres — from classical to Disney — to create a lively show that audiences always enjoy. While the members of the North Florida Saxophone Quartet certainly focus on the sax, all of them are proficient with other woodwind instruments, such as the flute, oboe, clarinet, and bassoon.
- Paula Prince performs on the soprano saxophone and graduated from the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music.
- Charles Almeida performs on the alto saxophone. He served in both the U.S. Army military band and the U.S. Air Force military band. In addition, he has played with several well-known big bands such as Harry James and Tommy Dorsey.
- Robbie Zukauskas plays tenor saxophone and played with the U.S. Army Band and the Florida National Guard Band. Robbie studied music at the University of Central Florida.
- Bill Prince plays the baritone saxophone. He's a professor emeritus at the University of North Florida and arranges most of the music for the ensemble. Bill has also performed around the world with famous bands and as a solo artist.
Admission: Free.
When: Sunday, May 14, 2024, from 6:30 to 7:30 p.m.
Where: St. Cyprian's Episcopal Church, 37 Lovett St. in downtown St. Augustine. The concert happens in the courtyard and attendees are encouraged to bring their portable chairs.
This event is part of the Romanza Festivale of Music and the Arts, an annual festival of two weeks of historical, cultural, and creative events celebrating all things St. Augustine. From May 3 -19, the nation's oldest city will be jam-packed with music and dance concerts, living history events and historical tours, live theater, and art exhibits.
2025 Pin Up Paws Calendar Contest
- May 14 @ 12:00 am - 11:59 pm
- 2025 Pin Up Paws Calendar Contest
- It’s that time of year! The St. Augustine Humane Society Annual Contest for the 2025 Pin Up Paws Calendar begins at 8:00am on May 1, 2024. The “Sweet Things” themed calendar will showcase the winning pets in all their adorableness.
- Submit a photo of your pet and start rooting for votes, each vote worth $1.00. Voting is May 1, 2024 at 8:00am through Saturday, July 13, 2024 at 8:00pm. And, you can vote as many times and for as many pets as you wish!
- The Pet with the most votes becomes the cover pet for the 2025 Sweet Things calendar. The next twelve pets with the next highest amount of votes will be a monthly pin up pet. All pets will enjoy a professional photo shoot with award-winning photographer Addison Fitzgerald.
- Prizes: *First-Place pet (along with being on the cover) also receives a $100.00 gift certificate to the Columbia Restaurant, two tickets to the Pin Up Paws Party, and two copies of the calendar. *Second-place winners receive a $50.00 Columbia Restaurant Gift Certificate and two calendars. *Twelve runners-up will be featured with their submission photos and a description. *The top 80 pet fundraisers will have a small photo on a collage page.
- The 2025 calendar will be revealed at the Pin Up Paws Party on Thursday, October 24, 2024 at The White Room.2025 Pin Up Paws Calendar Contest
Art in Public Spaces Exhibition
- May 14 @ 8:00 am - 5:00 pm
- FREE
- Stop by the Rotunda Gallery of the St. Johns County Administration Building to view the Art in Public Spaces Exhibition … Fair Winds to Elysium: William Bartram’s Travels in East Florida, 1774-1778. Presented by the St. Johns Cultural Council, the artwork celebrates the 250th Anniversary of William Bartram’s Travels in St. Johns County. The exhibition features the work of 24 local artists whose pieces were inspired by the flora and fauna of St. Johns County’s natural landscapes.
- Free and open to the public.
- Dates Time: Monday – Friday — April 16 through May 29, 2024. 8:00am-5:00pm
- Join us on Tuesday, April 16 at 8:30am for an exhibition preview prior to the Board of County Commissioners meeting. Or …. Wednesday, April 17 at 5:30pm for the evening reception.
- Participating artists include: Amy Hemphill Dove, Bob Arbogast, Byron Capo, Carole Adams, Catherine Avery St. Jean, Cindy Wilson, Dan Voellinger, Debra Mixon Holliday, Gail Beveridge, Gail Brown, Herrick Smith, Lauren Ehlers, Louise Meredith, Margaret Galloway, Martha Ferguson, Nikki Rakov, Paula Pascucci, Rhonda K. Lovett, Siv Spurgeon, Stephen Mullen, Stephen Rosche, Susan Miller, Teri Tompkins, and Terry Bottom.Art in Public Spaces Exhibition
Senior Yoga
- May 14 @ 9:45 am - 10:45 am
- Senior Yoga
- May 14 @ 9:45 am - 10:45 am
- Recurring Event FREE
- Looking for a Senior Yoga class to strengthen your core and increase your flexibility? Join SJC Parks & Rec at the Solomon Calhoun Community Center Gymnasium on Tuesday & Thursday mornings. Ages 50+.
- Offering eight-week yoga sessions, each consisting of 16 classes.
- Date Time: Tuesdays & Thursdays — *March 5 through May 28, 2024 9:45am-10:45am *Please Note: No class on March 19, April 16, 18, 23 and 25.
- Learn various yoga skills through a combination of physical exercises, mental meditation, and breathing techniques. Increase your flexibility and muscle strength, plus reduce stress.
- Participants — wear comfortable exercise attire. Please bring your own yoga mat, towel and water bottle to stay hydrated along with other items the instructor suggests.
- Space is limited to 50 participants!
- Cost: Zero for each 8-week session each session consists of 16 classes.
Written out urls here tinyurl.com/yjkw32kd